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Thread: UNOFFICIAL - Guide to Purchasing your First dSLR and Misc. Photography Questions

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    11-12-2008 02:24 PM #1
    Because of the frequency of "What are your thoughts on XXX Camera/lens", "I want to get into Photography", et. al. threads..
    I decided to put together a guide to help people with general questions regarding purchasing cameras, lenses, and photography in general.

    If you guys find anything, post it up and I'll continually update. I have come across fotograf's thread and will be merging the two into one. He has supplied a vast amount of information, and needs to recognized for organizing it.

    What makes a DSLR:
    DSLR: Digital Single Lens Reflex. This means that there is a mirror in the camera body that retracts almost instantly when you click the shutter to allow the sensor to view the image. This allows you to actually see what you will get when the camera records the image. A point and shoot will take a lot longer to record the image.

    Reasons to buy a DSLR
    Image Quality – A much higher resolution and overall quality
    Adaptability – The ability to interchange lenses and focal lengths is invaluable and essential if you want to shoot anything other than parties or family shots
    Speed – DSLR’s are faster on the startup and time between clicking the shutter and the actual recording of the image
    Large ISO range – Gives you the ability to shoot in a variety of situations more effectively
    Quality Optics - Generally the lenses will come in much large varieties and better quality than a P&S. This is what I love most about DSLR’s, your pictures will come out sharper than ever.

    Things to decide when buying a DSLR
    Price: Set yourself a budget and stick to it.
    Size and feeling: This plays a big part into which camera you want to buy. If it doesn’t feel right, you probably won’t enjoy it for long.
    Resolution: the megapixels, this is a big deal for some people, not a big deal for others. If you get in the 8+ range, you have image sizes that you will probably never blow up to full use.
    Sensor size: Some DSLR’s will crop your image to less than a 35mm size. Nikon has a 1.5x crop and the Nikon D3 has full frame. This means that a 100mm focal length on a film camera will be 150mm on a Nikon DSLR. This is a big advantage if you are looking to shoot far away, but not good if you want mostly wide angle, this could be a problem. Canon has 1.3x, 1.6x, and full frame if you are willing to spend the big bucks.

    Features to Look for:
    Auto focus: The # of areas of auto focus and the type. Keep in mind that the D40 and D40x have different types of auto focus then the rest of the Nikon lineup, and not all lenses will work with it.
    Bracket: With this feature on, your camera will take one properly exposed image, then 2 or more over and under exposed. Useful if you want to do HDR.
    Dust reduction: Some dust reduction systems work, most don't. This is a system integrated into the sensor that shakes the sensor to dislodge dust that may have landed on the sensor for whatever reason. Olympus is the industry standard in this, the rest have them is some regard or another but have yet to match the effectiveness of the Olympus system (read DPReview.com not only my opinion) benefit is that you don't have to clean your sensor nearly as often or pay someone to do it at a camera shop.
    Flash: In-body flashes are for snapshot type pictures, not effective for much more than that. For more advanced photography a shoe/bracket mounted flash is superior to any in body flash on any dslr.
    FPS: Frames per second, if you are going for action, this is where it's at. Pretty self-explanatory, it is much easier to catch the right moment when you have 5 per second to choose from.
    Image Stabilization: A mechanical system either in lens or in camera body to reduce shake during picture taking for clearer pictures. Canon/Nikon add it to their lenses and argue 4ish stops of improvement. The downside is that each lens is heavier than it's non IS counterpart and has more complexity and cost when buying. In body IS is in camera, and allows 3ish stops of improvement depending on camera/body setup. benefit you only buy it once and the lens is only as large/heavy as it needs to be for the job at hand. In body IS can also be used with some legacy MF lenses where they can't be with the lens based Canon/Nikon systems.
    ISO: By raising the ISO on a camera, you raise the sensor's sensitivity to light and make it so the sensor gathers more light making it possible to take a properly exposed picture with a faster shutter speed than if the camera was set at a lower ISO. This can also be used as an art effect. As a general rule regardless of sensor size the higher the ISO setting you use the more opportunity for visible noise will be the case to varying degrees depending on camera/sensor manufacturer.
    LCD screen: From 1-3 inches, this will help you in deciding exposure, composition, etc. I take a peak after every shot I take.
    Live View: Can use the LCD screen to frame a picture as opposed to using the viewfinder. Some Dslr's have them some don't. useful for macro work and tripod shooting. some, not all also have articulated LCD's. these are good in combination with live view for taking pictures at ground level, overhead and other awkward angles.
    Megapixels: The size of the data that is captured. Basically how pixelated the image turns out and how large you can blow your images up to, you know all about this, and most DSLRs these days don't dip below 6, more than enough.
    Noise reduction = Some cameras apply this to ALL files that they produce, whether it's RAW or JPG. This can help with the disadvantage of more noise that can occur with a smaller sensor, but this can also make your pictures turn out looking plasticy.
    Pixel Mapping: Some have it some don't. if you have a dead/stuck pixel some cameras have in body software that allows the correction of this occurrence. For other manufacturers it's a trip to the service center at a cost if not under warranty.
    Quality: RAW or JPG. JPG comes straight from the camera looking the best as processing is done in camera. RAW is a generally unsharpened, unadjusted file that comes from the camera. It's exactly what you shoot and what you get for the most part.
    Shutter speed: How fast the shutter closes; controls the amount of light taken in.
    Weather Sealed: Sealed camera bodies and lenses are typically the mid to upper range camera systems. Pentax is the only entry level sealed body presently(please feel free to correct this fact if I'm citing this incorrectly and add any entry level camera that has this feature). This allows one to shoot outdoors in wet weather with little or no risk to moisture getting to the electronics of the cameras causing dead cameras/lenses. the caveat is that you need sealed lenses as well to make the complete rig weather sealed. when buying upgrade lenses there is no guarantee they will be sealed but more often than not they are but you should still read the fine print for each lens considered to verify this point if it is important to you.
    White balance settings: White balance is what determines how white your whites are. If we are using regular 35 mm film, and we take a picture a white piece of paper in sunlight, that piece of paper will look white, if we take that same picture with the same film under shade, it will have a slight blue tint, under tungsten light, it will look green. This is called light temperature. With digital cameras, you can correct that, but only to a certain extent. It gets as deep as being able to correct the light temperature that the camera will take in light.

    Photography FAQ's
    Canon vs. Nikon? Which is better? Why?
    Canon vs. Nikon
    From what I read and notice, there is no "meaningful" differences between the "big hitters". It almost always boils down to preference. But it is important to realize that there are more companies than the big "two".

    What Camera is Right for Me?
    I'm sorry to tell you, but owning the latest, top-of-the-line will not make you the next Ansel Adams. The camera is merely the extension of your own creativity and focus. I highly advise that if you are interested in getting into photography, that you will go out to your local camera shop and put each and every camera in your hand. Make sure that you look at more than merely Nikon and Canon. The other brands such as Olympus, Pentax, Sony are capable of producing quality products as well.

    Photography Terminology & Tutorials?
    http://www.photoxels.com/digit....html

    Camera Reviews & Tips?
    http://www.kenrockwell.com/
    CNET.com Digital Camera Reviews
    http://www.dpreview.com
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/

    Where to Buy?
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
    http://www.adorama.com/
    http://www.canogacamera.com
    [url=http://www.calumetphoto.com]http://www.calumetphoto.com[/
    Amazon.com - Camera-Photo-Film

    Used Equipment
    Buying Used: A Frugal Man's Guide

    WARNING: When purchasing items online, make sure you check out resellerratings.com. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. Please don't fall for "bait-and-switch" scams.

    Where to Rent Equipment?
    http://www.calumetphoto.com/
    http://www.rentglass.com
    http://www.lensestorent.com

    Where to Buy Used?
    http://www.keh.com

    What kind of shots can I get with XXX lens?
    http://www.motleypixel.com
    Canon-Mount Lens Samples
    dpreview - lens reviews

    Where can I host my photos?
    http://www.photobucket.com
    http://www.webshots.com
    http://www.picasa.com
    http://www.flickr.com

    Where do I get Prints Made?
    http://www.bayphoto.com/
    http://www.reedyphoto.com/
    http://www.whcc.com/
    www.mpix.com

    What are Good Photography Forums/Boards?
    http://www.photo.net
    http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum
    Nikon Specific Forum
    Canon Specific Forum
    http://www.photocamel.com/forum/

    How do I take HDR shots and what does HDR mean?
    High Dynamic Range
    HDR How-To
    Photocritic.org HDR
    Naturescapes.net HDR Tutorial

    Moonlight Photography Help
    Exposures for Moonlight Photography

    Bokeh
    Bokeh Shapes

    Filters
    Filters Guide

    How do I take Macro shots?
    Photo.net Learn Macro

    How do I get into Off-Camera Flash Photography?
    http://www.strobist.com

    Automotive Rigs
    Automotive Rigs - photography-on-the-net

    Post Processing?
    Photosupport.com - CS3
    Photoshop Cafe
    Lightroom 2 Tutorials
    Unofficial YouTube Tutorials Post

    Podcasts
    24 Podcasts to Inspire You

    What are some good Photography Reads?
    The Digital Photography Book - Scott Kelby
    The Photography Bible - Daniel Lezano
    Digital Photography Masterclass - Tom Ang
    Understanding Exposure - Bryan Peterson
    Understanding Shutter Speed - Bryan Peterson
    The Camera - Ansel Adams
    The Negative - Ansel Adams
    The Print - Ansel Adams
    The Photographer's Eye: Composition and Design for Better Digital Photos - Michael Freeman

    As always, thanks and appreciation go out to Infranippies, schmuy ,no786 , Bmwrteam, fotograf, vwalfa, yzfwv,Holden McNeil, blurbora20v, et. al. for info and input to help bring this together

    Modified by Paint_By_Numbers at 10:15 AM 4-2-2009


    Modified by Paint_By_Numbers at 12:27 PM 4-15-2009


    Modified by Paint_By_Numbers at 8:42 PM 9-22-2009


  2. 11-12-2008 02:33 PM #2
    For equipment reviews that are significantly less biased toward nikon/asshattery and somewhat more scientific I think you should add:
    http://www.dpreview.com
    and
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/

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    11-12-2008 02:41 PM #3
    I was thinking about the same thing just didn't know how to go about it.

    A few comments.
    I used to like kenrockwell.com. He gives thorough reviews of almost everything. However I find some of his "test results" skewed and some of his methods interesting (no RAW?). in terms of the test results I'm talking specifically about his sharpness reviews. He'll take a 45Mb scan of a medium format film shot, and to compare it to a 9-12mp camera he'll zoom in 115% or more to get the same size which completely throws out any sharpness comparison Enough rant.

    #2 Canon vs Nikon - No "meaningful" differences.

    #3 Choosing a camera- Go into a store and physically hold them in your hand. They do feel completely different, 99% of the time go for the one thats more natural to use.

    #4 A camera only records light, YOU take the picture. A bigger better camera will not make a better picture. The camera is a tool, learn to use it before "I just bought a $2000 DSLR...what is the difference between shutter and aperture?"

    Bryan | www.bryanschmuland.com | blog.bryanschmuland.com

    There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
    You don't take a photograph, you make it.
    Ansel Adams


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    11-12-2008 03:31 PM #5
    I agree with most, if not all comments.. but I decided to put up kenrockwell.com, because a lot of people seem to like him, even though I think that he's a bit biased... but with, time I will try my best to wean out all of the junk, and keep this going to help clutter stuff out..

    Thanks for all input and help


  5. 11-12-2008 03:45 PM #6
    I definitely don't mind that you included Ken Rockwell - I actually read his site for nikon news and use his lens reviews a lot [especially for the manual focus stuff] - but he rubs me the wrong way sometimes and you need to make sure he's actually physically used the camera/lens he's writing about before you believe anything he's writing.



  6. 11-12-2008 04:39 PM #9
    Another dSLR buying guide made by a fellow vortexer
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3733581

    Nikon Specific Forum/Website:
    http://www.nikonians.org/forums/
    Canon Specific Forum:
    http://photography-on-the.net/forum/

    dSLR Buying Guide by dPreview:
    http://www.dpreview.com/learn/...1.htm

    Another Guide Discussing items like Sensor Size, Megapixels, ISO etc for dSLR's
    http://www.tomsguide.com/us/di....html

    Finding the Right dSLR for you guide (Low end-Mid Range- Semi Pro):
    http://www.cameralabs.com/buye...shtml

    Also some books worth picking up:
    Understanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson
    Photography Your Way by Chuck DeLaney
    The New Manual of Photography by John Hedgecoe
    Business and Legal Forms for Photographers by Tad Crawford
    Pricing Photography: The Complete Guide to Assignment and Stock Prices by Michal Heron and David McTavish
    Starting Your Career as a Freeland Photographer by Tad Crawford

    Stores with good reputation online:
    http://www.adorama.com/
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
    http://www.ritzcamera.com/
    http://www.cameta.com/
    http://www.17photo.com/

    And as always make sure you look on:
    http://www.resellerratings.com/
    Before buying online off a website....



  7. 11-12-2008 05:40 PM #11
    I'm glad we are doing this maybe this will get a sticky and people will look at it before asking the same questions.
    Great idea!

  8. Member fotograf's Avatar
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    11-13-2008 01:37 AM #12
    Quote, originally posted by Bmwrteam »
    Another dSLR buying guide made by a fellow vortexer
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3733581

    Wow, I'm surprised anyone even remembers this thing.

    for a great list and idea!


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    11-13-2008 11:43 AM #13
    Quote, originally posted by Bmwrteam »
    Another dSLR buying guide made by a fellow vortexer
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3733581

    Thats a great writeup. Can we join the 2 threads and Sticky it?

    Bryan | www.bryanschmuland.com | blog.bryanschmuland.com

    There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
    You don't take a photograph, you make it.
    Ansel Adams

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    11-13-2008 12:11 PM #14
    Quote, originally posted by schmuy »

    Thats a great writeup. Can we join the 2 threads and Sticky it?

    done and done...


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    11-13-2008 02:02 PM #15
    "Canon vs. Nikon? Which is better? Why?
    Canon vs. Nikon
    From what I read and notice, there is no "meaningful" differences between the "big hitters". It almost always boils down to preference."

    canon vs. nikon vs. olympus vs. pentax vs. sony vs. panasonic need to be included in that statement.

    they simply all have their pros/cons, strengths/weakness'. in the hands of a capable photographer they will all produce exceptional results.


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    11-13-2008 02:38 PM #16
    Quote, originally posted by valfaw »
    "Canon vs. Nikon? Which is better? Why?
    Canon vs. Nikon
    From what I read and notice, there is no "meaningful" differences between the "big hitters". It almost always boils down to preference."

    canon vs. nikon vs. olympus vs. pentax vs. sony vs. panasonic need to be included in that statement.

    they simply all have their pros/cons, strengths/weakness'. in the hands of a capable photographer they will all produce exceptional results.

    I agree with you... but with "FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS", people wish to always compare the two big-hitters... but i'll be more than happy to include comments and changes


  13. 11-16-2008 10:41 PM #17
    Cool Stuff, big fan of everyones work, who replied so far, and Fully agree...
    ENRON = We Take Your Money and Run!!!
    "Never bring a Camera to a Gun Fight, You never know who you might Point n Shoot at!!!"
    "Victims, arent we all?"
    http://pointnshootphotography.zenfolio.com/


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    11-17-2008 01:57 AM #19
    can i come over and hug you?

  15. 11-17-2008 02:02 AM #20
    sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky!

  16. 11-17-2008 10:50 AM #21
    Excellent info
    needs to be a sticky

  17. 11-17-2008 12:25 PM #22
    Quote, originally posted by jay_vw »
    Excellent info
    needs to be a sticky

    for sure..

    just picked up a D90. been getting comfy with it and READING everything i can.


  18. 11-17-2008 12:31 PM #23
    tryin to upgrade to something that can shoot at night, something that shoots at a high iso, with lil noise, how is the D300?
    ENRON = We Take Your Money and Run!!!
    "Never bring a Camera to a Gun Fight, You never know who you might Point n Shoot at!!!"
    "Victims, arent we all?"
    http://pointnshootphotography.zenfolio.com/

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    11-17-2008 12:52 PM #24
    Quote, originally posted by jettajny »
    sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky!

    of the icky.

    DUBco. | SDOBBINSPhotography | Tumblr | Flickr | KlutchOnline


  20. 11-18-2008 12:41 PM #26
    Quote, originally posted by Point n Shoot »
    tryin to upgrade to something that can shoot at night, something that shoots at a high iso, with lil noise, how is the D300?

    Very good, supposedly - only beat by the D3/D700 in Nikonland. Way way way better than the D80/D200. I'm really impressed with the images from a D300 - I can almost tell it is one from the way it renders and the colors. Kind of crazy.

    You won't regret the upgrade in awesome quality of feel the D300 has over a D80 either - I love to hand people my d200 when they've been shooting with a plastic body - they're all stunned.


  21. Member surfcity21's Avatar
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    11-18-2008 03:13 PM #27
    Quote, originally posted by Infranippies »

    Very good, supposedly - only beat by the D3/D700 in Nikonland. Way way way better than the D80/D200. I'm really impressed with the images from a D300 - I can almost tell it is one from the way it renders and the colors. Kind of crazy.

    You won't regret the upgrade in awesome quality of feel the D300 has over a D80 either - I love to hand people my d200 when they've been shooting with a plastic body - they're all stunned.

    i just actually upgraded myself from a D50 to a D300. What a difference. im still trying to get adjusted to it. i just got it a week ago and havent really had the time to take it out yet. im hoping this weekend or tomorrow night after im done school in philly.


  22. 11-18-2008 03:22 PM #28
    Quote, originally posted by surfcity21 »

    i just actually upgraded myself from a D50 to a D300. What a difference. im still trying to get adjusted to it. i just got it a week ago and havent really had the time to take it out yet. im hoping this weekend or tomorrow night after im done school in philly.

    awsome stuff, let me know.. cause i mainly upgrading after new years, because my d60 has no motor, less focus points, and crazy noise at higher iso's.

    ENRON = We Take Your Money and Run!!!
    "Never bring a Camera to a Gun Fight, You never know who you might Point n Shoot at!!!"
    "Victims, arent we all?"
    http://pointnshootphotography.zenfolio.com/


  23. 11-20-2008 01:08 PM #30
    Quote »
    Image Quality – A much higher resolution and overall quality

    May I point out that the advantage of a dSLR camera don't have to do much with the MP of the chip but the quality of the chip itself.

    10MP off a 100dollar point-and-shoot camera wont give the same result as a dSLR (because the chip quality from the 100dollar camera is a lot less).


    Edit: I have a Nikon D80 myself, like it a lot.


    Modified by RubenD at 10:18 AM 11-20-2008


  24. 11-20-2008 11:36 PM #31
    bored
    ENRON = We Take Your Money and Run!!!
    "Never bring a Camera to a Gun Fight, You never know who you might Point n Shoot at!!!"
    "Victims, arent we all?"
    http://pointnshootphotography.zenfolio.com/

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    11-24-2008 04:00 PM #32
    ^?????????

    Still no sticky? pleasssssssssssssse

    Bryan | www.bryanschmuland.com | blog.bryanschmuland.com

    There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
    You don't take a photograph, you make it.
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  26. 11-24-2008 05:33 PM #33
    Quote, originally posted by valfaw »
    "Canon vs. Nikon? Which is better? Why?
    Canon vs. Nikon
    From what I read and notice, there is no "meaningful" differences between the "big hitters". It almost always boils down to preference."

    canon vs. nikon vs. olympus vs. pentax vs. sony vs. panasonic need to be included in that statement.

    they simply all have their pros/cons, strengths/weakness'. in the hands of a capable photographer they will all produce exceptional results.

    I think some note should be added regarding the support and maybe the lenses and other addon "goodies" for these brands.

    People may not realize that your camera choice means you can't switch lenses as easily.

    Also, filters, when and how to use them, especially a circular polarizer would be a good thing to add, perhaps?


  27. Member fotograf's Avatar
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    11-24-2008 06:12 PM #34
    for sticky

  28. 11-24-2008 06:17 PM #35
    Quote, originally posted by Ajlepisto »
    Also, filters, when and how to use them, especially a circular polarizer would be a good thing to add, perhaps?

    Ask and you shall receive...
    Filters
    http://www.cambridgeincolour.c...s.htm

    Polarizer:
    What it is:

    Quote »
    This is one of the most common filters for outdoor photography such as nature and wildlife. Its main purpose is to reduce or eliminate reflected glare from non-metallic objects. This causes things like trees, leaves, grass, and water to become more saturated because it removes their highlights. It can also darken the sky, especially when it is used at a right angle to the sun. Make sure that the filter is compatible with the light meter on the camera. Some cameras need a circular polarizer for the light meter to continue to work.

    How to use-
    http://www.dslrtips.com/worksh...shtml

    Left: None Right: Polarizer



    Graduated Neutral Density Filters:

    http://www.great-landscape-pho....html

    Quote »
    Half of the filter is gray and the other half is clear with a smooth transition between the two. Often landscapes consist of a bright sky and a dark land, and this filter allows the photographer to darken the sky so that the overall exposure of the image is consistent. This effect can be achieved through digital software, provided that the sky isn't completely washed out, but it's less time consuming if the shot is well exposed in the first place.



    Ultra-Violet Filter

    How to use:
    http://www.great-landscape-pho....html

    Quote »
    This filter reduces UV light from reaching the camera. This can help improve the detail of an image, and can help slightly darken the sky. It doesn't reduce the overall light in the scene so it's useful to use when a polarizing filter makes the scene to dark. It's also a really good lens protector. It's a lot easier to stomach replacing a $20 filter than it is to replace a $500 telephoto lens.



    Black and White Filter:
    http://www.2filter.com/tiffen/....html

    Quote »
    Black and white imaging records only tonal differences between colored objects, which appear as black, white, or different shades of gray.Proper rendition depends on your own desires, and, for film, the differences between film sensitivity to colors and that of the eye.The latter is due to the fact that most panchromatic emulsions used are more sensitive to blue, violet and ultraviolet than to other colors.

    No Filter:

    Tiffen Yellow 8 Filter

    Tiffen Yellow 15 Filter

    Skylight Filter:
    http://www.nikonians.org/html/....html

    Quote »
    As many of us are aware, the sunlit sky fills our atmosphere with all sorts of radiation. We know that UV (Ultraviolet) and IR (Infra-Red) may cause sunburn. Yet the human eye does not have the ability to distinguish these levels of light. Film, however, is sensitive to several of these and they can effect the resulting photo. For the most part, UV rays may appear as a bluish haze. This filter is designed to help eliminate most of these skylight rays to help assure clearer and sharper images.


    Infrared Filter
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_photography

    Quote »
    In infrared photography, the film or image sensor used is sensitive to infrared light. The part of the spectrum used is referred to as near-infrared to distinguish it from far-infrared, which is the domain of thermal imaging. Wavelengths used for photography range from about 700 nm to about 900 nm. Usually an "infrared filter" is used; this lets infrared (IR) light pass through to the camera, but blocks all or most of the visible light spectrum (the filter thus looks black or deep red).When these filters are used together with infrared-sensitive film or sensors, very interesting "in-camera effects" can be obtained; false-color or black-and-white images with a dreamlike or sometimes lurid appearance known as the "Wood Effect."



    Diffusion Filter
    http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/D....html

    Quote »
    A diffusion filter is a translucent photographic filter used for a special effect. When used in front of the camera lens, a diffusion filter softens subjects and generates a dreamy haze. This can also be improvised by smearing petroleum jelly on a UV filter or shooting through a nylon stocking. Diffusion filters may be uniform or may have a clear center area to create a vignette of diffused area around the clear center subject. Diffusion filters are also used in stage lighting (and likewise in photography setups), where they may also be called diffusion gel, or just diffusion. This is a reference to color gel, which is another type of lighting gel. Diffusion gels soften the light in order to reduce or diffuse shadows or glare. Silk sheets can also be used in this manner, and in fact were until the invention of translucent plastics. "Opal" is a common translucent or opalescent diffusion.



    Modified by Bmwrteam at 4:46 PM 11-24-2008


    Modified by Bmwrteam at 4:48 PM 11-24-2008


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