Who has experience with ball joint extenders?

[rabbitarmy]

Specifically those sold by Performance Machine Works Ltd (www.pmwltd.com)

Quote »

Volkswagen Lower Ball Joint Extender: For All Models Using The 17mm Or 19mm Ball Joint Fits pinch clamp on stock VW upright, and stock ball joint shank. Returns lower control arm to proper angle to improve front suspension geometry on cars that have been lowered. Machined from 4140/4142 steel and heat treated to a tensile strength of 150,000 PSI. Standard extender drops ball joint 1.5 inches. Can be machined to special lengths. $265.00 (pair)

Everything looks good in theory, but I have heard stories that they'll break. Obviously that could be catastrophic & of course I don't want to piss money away on them if they won't last.

[Chromosexual]

ask

all vw all the time (steve)

[All VW All the time]

I got them from Dave. He is not crazy about selling them for non race cars. Why I cannot say. Race cars would put way more load on them. But his concern I think is that they would be neglected more. As in not torque checking the bolts.

I'm quite happy with mine. They are going to be properly painted this winter when I dig into the whole front suspension.

Nice horizontal A arms though!

Oh, don't forget to flip the tie rods too, to complete the geometry picture.

[Muffler Bearing]

boludito and WackyWabbitRacer to name a few

[boludito]

I gots em. They cool.

[mk1turbo79]

For those who have them, have you noticed any new handling problems as a result? eg, heavy or lighter steering, more front end push, or less feel in the steering?

[boludito]

Um, no problems. Uses stock balljoints so you don't have to worry about replacing spherical bearings. Why would the front push more?

You understand what these do right? Their purpose in lowering the control...

Oh, you say that you heard stories of them breaking. Now, have you heard any stories of the pmw specifically? Cause only one that I heard was from dave and that was an early one.

Modified by boludito at 2:22 AM 12-3-2008


Modified by boludito at 2:23 AM 12-3-2008

[mk1turbo79]

No i haven't heard of any breaking, just the question about changing the steering geometry (kingpin inclination and scrub radius) causing handling issues.

[boludito]

I confused you with the OP.

As for scrub radius and handling issues, all I can say is my car turns in better and feels better than before when it was at the same height but without the spacers. Make a noticeable positive change.

[mk1turbo79]

ok cheers mate exactly what i was looking for, i could have been abit more specific first up.

[rabbitarmy]

Quote, originally posted by boludito »

Oh, you say that you heard stories of them breaking. Now, have you heard any stories of the pmw specifically?

I should have specified, I haven't heard anything bad about the PMW extenders specifically, just that no ball joint extender is going to hold up.

Thanks for sharing everyone

Quote, originally posted by All VW All the time »

Oh, don't forget to flip the tie rods too, to complete the geometry picture.

Thats the whole reason I'm doing this actually. With the extreme angle my tie rods are at they have gotten a bit short & I don't have enough tie rod in the rod end to be totally comfortable with things. Going to use these:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...13-11

[goosler]

maybe you should try centering your rack again first?

[-RalleyTuned-]

installed these this past summer and did one autox on them. car felt much better with front end grip and also pretty much eliminated the bump steer i was having. PMW also sells a tie rod flip kit for $35, i highly recomend them

this car does see stints as my daily driver, and its probably had a few thousand miles on the road including two road trips 3hrs each way. I didnt buy them with the intent of running them on the street as much as i have, but they have worked perfect and show no signs of wear.

being as this is my toy/track car in the summer time, i do go over the nuts and bolts in the car much more frequently then your average street car

i have never heard of a quality ball joint extender breaking. if you look a little more into that rumor you will find that people have attempted to make these pieces in their garage, without proper knowledge of what they are building. that is when it gets dangerous


Modified by -RalleyTuned- at 8:14 AM 12-3-2008

[rabbitarmy]

Quote, originally posted by goosler »

maybe you should try centering your rack again first?

I'm pretty sure the rack is centered, I've got the newer style tie rods with adjustment on both sides.

Quote, originally posted by -RalleyTuned- »

PMW also sells a tie rod flip kit for $35, i highly recomend them this car does see stints as my daily driver, and its probably had a few thousand miles on the road including two road trips 3hrs each way. I didnt buy them with the intent of running them on the street as much as i have, but they have worked perfect and show no signs of wear. being as this is my toy/track car in the summer time, i do go over the nuts and bolts in the car much more frequently then your average street car i have never heard of a quality ball joint extender breaking. if you look a little more into that rumor you will find that people have attempted to make these pieces in their garage, without proper knowledge of what they are building. that is when it gets dangerous Modified by -RalleyTuned- at 8:14 AM 12-3-2008

I didn't see anything about a tie rod flip kit on their site. I'll give them a call & inquire about it. I don't have a problem periodically checking torque on them, its something I do with all suspension components regularly anyway.

[All VW All the time]

Quote, originally posted by rabbitarmy »

Going to use these: http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...13-11

The bugpak bushings are only 19.95

Drill a 5/8" hole in the steering arm, press in the bushings, flip the rod ends. Done!


Modified by All VW All the time at 4:53 PM 12-3-2008

[-RalleyTuned-]

Quote, originally posted by rabbitarmy »

I didn't see anything about a tie rod flip kit on their site. I'll give them a call & inquire about it. I don't have a problem periodically checking torque on them, its something I do with all suspension components regularly anyway.

when you order it just ask, comes with the insert and washers and all that jazz. just nice to get it all in a bundle. definetly replace the ball joints at this time if you have not already

[Danno13]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3770238

Good info in there

Anyone ordered them in larger lengths? I think SCCH makes 2" ones as their max.


Modified by Danno13 at 10:39 PM 12-3-2008

[boludito]

scch's cost twice as much and need to welded onto the old knuckle, plus it's a spherical bearing. I wouldn't run that for too long on the street. The nice thing about PMW"s is that you use an oem balljoint.

[Autocross83gti]

I can't leave this thread without commenting on the high price of these two pieces.
I don't see these making a huge difference with bump steer. With the Mk 1 suspension anyways.
Although I will say I've never used them on a Mk 1.

[boludito]

If you are complaining about the prices, you don't understand the time involved in producing these pieces. There are 13 setups just for the piece and they are solid and very well machined. I used to work in fabrication, and I'd rather pay 265 dollars for these than make them myself.

[Autocross83gti]

I'm no machinist so I can't comment on the work involved.
It was an immediate response to seeing these made for other cars with a much lower cost.
I should just be happy someone makes them for the Mk 1.

[boludito]

Quote, originally posted by Autocross83gti »

I'm no machinist so I can't comment on the work involved. It was an immediate response to seeing these made for other cars with a much lower cost. I should just be happy someone makes them for the Mk 1.

Many of the ones I've seen at lower costs have been know to fail.

As far as PMW's reputation goes, I haven't heard of any failures except for one, which was due to not being installed properly.

[Autocross83gti]

I was refering to ball joints made for other cars than the Rabbit. Just to clarify.

[toplessvw]

I have always found this way to extend the ball joint a little bit to much in the machine work aspect and have always had in my mind a simple block type to move the factory ball joint up(such as my quick sketch) but i am unsure if the benifit of this is caused by the level control arm or the lengthening of the ball joint pivot point. please feel free to comment

[-RalleyTuned-]

Quote, originally posted by Autocross83gti »

I should just be happy someone makes them for the Mk 1.

exactly

[Muffler Bearing]

Quote, originally posted by toplessvw »

I have always found this way to extend the ball joint a little bit to much in the machine work aspect and have always had in my mind a simple block type to move the factory ball joint up(such as my quick sketch) but i am unsure if the benifit of this is caused by the level control arm or the lengthening of the ball joint pivot point. please feel free to comment

i have no idea what your ms-paint drawing is, but the benefit comes from moving the ball joint pivot away from the steering knuckle. pay no attention to whether or not the control arm itself is parallel with the ground, look at its two pivot points and the imaginary line drawn between them.

[Muffler Bearing]

Quote, originally posted by Autocross83gti »

I was refering to ball joints made for other cars than the Rabbit. Just to clarify.

these are not ball joints.

[-RalleyTuned-]

Quote, originally posted by Muffler Bearing »

these are not ball joints.

i was tryin to figure out what he was saying! haha

yes these are not ball joint replacements, they are EXTENDERS

[Autocross83gti]

Quote, originally posted by Muffler Bearing »

these are not ball joints.

The public school system failed you.

[-RalleyTuned-]

Quote, originally posted by Autocross83gti »

The public school system failed you.

i dont think im the only one confused by your statements...

are you saying other ball joint extenders for other cars are much cheaper? can i see them?

or are you saying these ARE ball joints and are too expensive? cause rabbit ball joints are like $20

[Autocross83gti]

They're obviously not ball joints.
I might be wrong about the prices I've seen for like parts. It's been a while since I've looked for them.
But it doesn't really matter because those that need them and are willing to pay for them will do so without care for others opinions on price.

[-RalleyTuned-]

im curious as to what other cars these are made for?

ive been looking at these for several years and have never had them at this price and proven performance. id like to see the other parts you are referring to

[boludito]

ep3 civics. They use macpherson front setups,

[uglyrabbit]

i'm curious about the added stress these would add on the ball joint.
due to the increased torque produced by the lengthened arm do the
ball joints wear more quickly?

[boludito]

I've been running them since September, and I personally have not experienced any issues. As for the rate of wear of the actual balljoint, I haven't noticed anything yet, but I am keeping an eye on it.