I agree. Sell the NCS and NMS for those who just want a bare necessities vehicle, but continue to bring over the Jetta and Passat for those (like me) who are willing to pay more for the interior quality and detail.
#1
From C&D:"Why is VW walking away from global cars, especially at a time when other automakers are globalizing? The company feels that American and Asian customers don't appreciate the refinement of its current offerings. "U.S. customers look at car size and engine displacement. They won't pay a dollar extra for a Passat over the Camry just because of its finesse and attention to detail," a company executive told us in Wolfsburg."
I hope that VW realizes that many of us by a VW JUST because they are refined - and are willing to pay a little more. Build your car for the masses - just please keep sending the Passat, Golf, etc., for those of us who appreciate the difference.
Complete article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/re...spied
#2
I agree. Sell the NCS and NMS for those who just want a bare necessities vehicle, but continue to bring over the Jetta and Passat for those (like me) who are willing to pay more for the interior quality and detail.
#3
This was the most depressing article I've ever read. Makes me want to... hey, where's the emoticon for cry? We'll go withinstead.
If Volkswagen would take the time to conduct even a silly internet poll I think they'd find out that those of us in the USA who buy Volkswagens do so because of the higher-than-Japan and Korea quality and attention to detail. I just don't know where any of this is coming from.
Go to http://www.vw.com and http://www.honda.com and build a bare-bones Jetta and a Civic that has the same features. You'll find that they're priced within two hundred or so bucks of each other--a completely negligible difference when you consider the Jetta's higher quality feel and attention to detail. If Volkswagen sold a Jetta without cruise, air conditioning, and power everything, then a base Jetta would probably cost the same as a base Civic--a plain little car without any normally-standard goodies.
This article and apparent VW mindset is making me sooooo
If we end up seeing a cheaped-out Jetta and Passat in 2011 I'm going to be soooooo upset. Just when Volkswagen seemed to be doing some of the right things in globalizing the GTI, it looks like they're ready to do the wrong thing now and give us a POS NCS and NMS.
You can't change a reputation for making troublesome cars overnight. Sorry, but you can't. I have owned a 2003 Jetta with zero problems, now at 84K, and I love it, but I'll admit that the MKIV's really tarnished Volkswagen's rep for reliability. Shoving cheap-ass NCS and NMS cars in our hands will do nothing to fix VW's reputation overnight that the highly reliable MKV cars haven't been able to do since 2005. All it will serve to do is push Volkswagen's cars farther down in the list of viable options--not only will Volkswagens be seen as unreliable (thanks, once again, to the MKIVs that I love), but they'll also be seen as crappy products ala Kia and Hyundai. That sure won't boost sales. And if they're worried about not being able to lower prices enough (which is 1/2 the point).... then why the heck is everything being changed?
If Volkswagen wants to build cars in Tennessee then go ahead, I'm all for it. With GM, Chrysler, and Ford laying off workers AT BEST, it would certainly be good PR for Volkswagen to hire some of those workers. But it will turn into bad PR overnight and we'll end up with the 80s Pennsylvania plant all over again if Volkswagen thinks that America wants POS Volkswagens.
I'll shut up, I could go on forever.
I've owned Jettas since I was 16 because they're NOT Hondas, they're NOT Toyotas, and thank God they're NOT Kias or Hyundais either. They're German autos with great driving character and attention to detail that's a cut above the mainstream auto world. If VWoA erases the Jetta and/or Passat nameplate, or if they undermine those nameplates by engineering low-cost, low-quality NCS/NMS versions, I may have to find myself another brand to love. I can only hope that we've either been given faulty info, or not all of the info, and that someone, somewhere has enough of a brain at VW to not kill the characteristics that make us love their cars.
China can have their own country-specific versions. And build cages around them on the streets, if they so desire. But we in the US deserve the Wolfsburg-penned versions that we've nearly always gotten.
Modified by mediumbluemetalic at 11:12 PM 12-17-2008
Modified by mediumbluemetalic at 11:12 PM 12-17-2008
#4
Quote, originally posted by mediumbluemetalic » If we end up seeing a cheaped-out Jetta and Passat in 2011 I'm going to be soooooo upset.
Fortunately from what I have read other places, the Passat will not be changed - the "cheapened" Jetta(s) are in addition to the Passat. Seems like VW will continue to offer the Passat in full Euro quality and spec at a comparably higher price than the Jetta - which is fine with me.
Choice, my friends, is our friend.
#5
Yeah, there was a little overreaction at first when I read the C&D article.Looks like you're correct, and the NMS is in addition to the Passat. And apparently the next Passat is supposed to step things up to more aggressively go after the 3-series. Couldn't be a bad thing there.
I am a little concerned about the MKVI Jetta though. The Golf 6 looks so nice... why can't VW just graft a trunk on, as usual, tweak the styling, and call it a day?
#6
mmm..... I don't think they are "cheapening" the cars. They are "Americanifying" them. The NMS will be to the Passat what the 2.5 is to the old 2.0.Basically, the feature list will be short enough for an American's attention span, and all of the things on that list will be better than the other guys.
Its kind of like how the 2.5 is a soul-less appliance, where as the european 4s have some spunk. These new cars will be soul-less "just works" people movers, with a lot less nice little touches (which Americans don't appreciate anyway).
The 2.5 isn't bad though. Its cheap, powerful, and is very reliable. It has single-handedly warmed over a ton of American buyers. I mean ... the Rabbit was top picked by Consumer Reports! Just imagine what a full car designed around those soul-less principals will do for VW's American image.
That said, VW better keep the hatchbacks as euro imports.
New Shenandoah hot lap 1:46.92: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmYq3mBbwPg
#7
I'll take that "soul-less" 2.5 over my rental Cobalt I have right now any day of the week. (My Rabbit got hit last week.) Sorry, but the 2.5 is not a soul less appliance.My Rabbit is way more car than that Cobalt is.
#8
Quote, originally posted by curvedinfinity » mmm..... I don't think they are "cheapening" the cars. They are "Americanifying" them. Not sure that is a good thing other than to attract more buyers that are not really car people. I buy European cars because they are designed for the more demanding European customer and the European driving environment. Give me my European car!
#9
Quote, originally posted by curvedinfinity » That said, VW better keep the hatchbacks as euro imports. AMEN! I will gladly pay more $$ to have a Rabbit in Euro spec. I still like driving my 1994 Golf GL BETTER than a new Cobalt or Tercel - both have no soul in their execution or driving feel.
Not to mention it is the absolutely-must-have-convenient-hatchback.
#10
Quote, originally posted by curvedinfinity » I don't think they are "cheapening" the cars. They are "Americanifying" them. . Is there a difference?
#11
If you take a look at their spy pics, they lengthened the car once again. I already felt that the Jetta was pushing midsize proportions. That it's about to get longer is... disheartening at best.
#12
Quote, originally posted by JohnEZ » If you take a look at their spy pics, they lengthened the car once again. I already felt that the Jetta was pushing midsize proportions. That it's about to get longer is... disheartening at best. I completely agree. It was great that they increased the leg room in the rear seat of the MKV Jetta, but the went overboard with with the trunk area behind the seat. They should have tapered better like the previous gen BMW 3 series or MKIV Jetta.
I don't have a problem if VW wants to build a high volume low cost mid-size car for US, just don't replace the Jetta with it. Me wants Jetta based on Golf VI design and would be willing to pay for it.
#13
Quote, originally posted by davidch » Is there a difference?
Well, 1990s GMs were "cheapened." Toyotas were "americanified."
That said, for my buying pleasure, they are the exact same thing.
New Shenandoah hot lap 1:46.92: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmYq3mBbwPg
#14
the car pictured looks like the mk5.5 they talked about with a minor facelift. I have seen different pictures of a totally different and more mk6 looking jetta so the article confuses me. I do like the idea of no option models being available though
Going back to stock
WTB Stock MKV FSI DP
WTB Cheap stock MKV fogs
WTB Driver side heater vent
#15
"U.S. customers look at car size and engine displacement. They won't pay a dollar extra for a Passat over the Camry just because of its finesse and attention to detail," a company executive told us in Wolfsburg."No, Americans will buy the Camry because it is thought of as more reliable. Most Americans have never driven a VW because of the reputation for being unreliable. And VW's service network is a mess.
I am so angry about them "dumbing down" cars for us, I could scream. I also buy VWs because they are European. If I want an American car, I'll buy one.
Until VW realizes that quality (both perceived and real) is a huge issue, they are sunk in this country. To blame us and say we want big cars with big motors is a slap in the face. VW AG has never understood this market, and never will. They didn't understand our extreme fascination with the original Beetle (e.g. the Herbie films), and they are clueless as to what we want now.
When the Rabbit was built in Pennsylvania and they tried to Americanize the car, people left VW in droves. Sales slid for over a decade. Even back in 1994, when VWoA sales were in the toilet, there were massive battles over the New Beetle. America wanted it, and VW AG engineers attempted to kill the car by engineering it to be sub par (it originally had rear drum brakes). This was partly a cultural issue (i.e. the connection with Hitler) and partly because they didn't understand American tastes.
In short, if they are going to build a VW "Accord", I'll buy Honda's version instead. At least theirs will be better quality. I love my '04 Jetta, and it has been trouble free. But even if there were problems with it, I'd love it. It's unique. It's European. It's got a certain something that other cars don't have. Take that away, and I am out of here. And I am a 21 year, seven-time VW customer.
#16
Quote, originally posted by iluvbugs1970 » VW AG engineers attempted to kill the car by engineering it to be sub par (it originally had rear drum brakes). I was with you until this point.... VW really led the way in the auto industry by putting disc brakes all the way around the car. Disc units are far superior to drum brakes, and if VW hadn't mainstreamed 4-wheel discs with the NB, Jetta, Golf, and Passat of the late 90s, I'm assuming many brands would still be using drums.
#17
Quote, originally posted by mediumbluemetalic » I was with you until this point.... VW really led the way in the auto industry by putting disc brakes all the way around the car. Disc units are far superior to drum brakes, and if VW hadn't mainstreamed 4-wheel discs with the NB, Jetta, Golf, and Passat of the late 90s, I'm assuming many brands would still be using drums.
Actually, I was only partially wrong. In the book "The New Beetle" by Matt DeLorenzo, it says:
The decision to base the New Beetle on the Golf, while ultimately the Bug's salvation, almost killed the project. Engineers in Germany wanted to work on the new Golf. Few seemed to be interested in the New Beetle. So the development work was farmed out to Volcke and the American product planners. Their eyes firmly fixed on the bottom line, the planners insisted on changes to keep the sticker price low. Ultimately, those changes began to affect the development prototypes. While the Concept 1 was a marketer's dream, turning that vision into reality became an engineering nightmare.
"It really wasn't our car," Piech said. "Some of the US people wanted the cost down as much as possible, so it ahd drum brakes when no A-class car (the Golf platform) in the whole group had drum brakes. The handling was bad. We wanted the Beetle to be as good as the Golf or better. It wasn't. So we had this big fight." Piech was poised to cancel the New Beetle, when Martin Winterkorn, the board member in charge of technical development, stepped in and insisted that the Beetle development be brought in-house.So I guess I was sort of wrong. The Germans didn't want to work on the New Beetle, but it was the Americans involved that cheapened it to the point of being unlike any other VW.
Now the real question is...will the new "American" VWs be designed in Germany or in the US?
#18
The New Beetle was very popular in the US, good thing those smart Germans didn't scrap it.It has outsold Golf and ten years later, is not too far behind Rabbit sales.
So maybe VW will get a sales sucess with its new Americanized vehicles the way it did with the New Beetle.
#19
as long as it has "cup holders" i will be happy
#20
If VW goes the way of Toyota or Honda my next car will be a Mini or Mazda.I like VW's because of that extra attention to detail they give their cars. Even so both my VW's have been jack the ripper nightmares on wheels I still love them for the driving and engineering. If I have an unreliable POS that is a debbie downer to drive or live with then what is there???
#21
Won't buy. Simple as that.edit: Regarding the size of the Jetta -- this is normal for European model redesigns, right? Each model gets slightly larger and they introduce a smaller model at the bottom when the new one gets too big. Which means we should see a smaller replacement for the Jetta, right? I don't mean the Polo either as that is likely a bit too small (no hate here for it, just reality of our market).
Modified by cvig at 9:02 AM 12-30-2008
#23
Third post - Your second paragraph - something about Quality..............When will this board wake up and realize that VW makes the biggest POS vehicles available today. My Brand new TDI is going in for.. Can you guess?? Work at the dealer cause the fan speeds 1-3 don't work. My brakes are crap, and it pulls to the right when driving.
I gave VW another chance and they ****ing blew-it in the first two weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My Mazdaspeed3 and my former Civic have never went in for anything other than scheduled maintenance.
Pull the enormous blindfold off your head. So the catch phrase for over-priced, over weight, unreliable cars is:
"higher-than-Japan and Korea quality and attention to detail"
I told my wife that this Jetta could have some problems - at least its not disappointing us
Modified by brecker at 11:13 AM 1-8-2009
#24
Quote, originally posted by brecker » Third post - Your second paragraph - something about Quality.............. When will this board wake up and realize that VW makes the biggest POS vehicles available today. My Brand new TDI is going in for.. Can you guess?? Work at the dealer cause the fan speeds 1-3 don't work. My brakes are crap, and it pulls to the right when driving.
I gave VW another chance and they ****ing blew-it in the first two weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My Mazdaspeed3 and my former Civic have never went in for anything other than scheduled maintenance.
Pull the enormous blindfold off your head. So the catch phrase for over-priced, over weight, unreliable cars is:
"higher-than-Japan and Korea quality and attention to detail"
I told my wife that this Jetta could have some problems - at least its not disappointing us
Modified by brecker at 11:13 AM 1-8-2009You might want to check into The Car Lounge then.
#25
Quote, originally posted by brecker » Third post - Your second paragraph - something about Quality.............. When will this board wake up and realize that VW makes the biggest POS vehicles available today.
I suppose what you're saying is that because my grandmother's Toyota Tercel is a piece of doodoo, every Toyota ever made is junk, and no one should buy a Toyota ever because she had one bad experience? And I guess we can count that as two bad experiences because my friend's Tercel is busted in the same fashion.
I've got to tell you, brecker, that's what I'm understanding from the logic of your post.
Let me count for you, brecker, how many Volkswagens my immediate family has owned in the water-cooled years: 5 Jettas, 1 Golf, 1 New Beetle. That's seven. Zero of those seven (that's 0%) had fan speed problems, crappy brakes, or pulled in any direction. If those are your qualifications for a POS car, then none of the seven VW's we've owned qualify.
You're defending the Japanese cars it seems; perhaps my grandmother's Tercel fits your description of a reliable, quality car. It smells like a rotting latex explosion, burns oil so fast it never has to be changed (since 30K on the odo), fouls plugs on a regular basis, and emits a giant cloud of dense smoke upon every start up. My friend's Tercel has the same problem, too. If that's your definition of quality and reliability, count me OUT. My aunt once owned a Civic which needed a new motor at 50K, and my father's Accord, which has always been meticulously maintained, had to be brought in when nearly new for non-schedulded maintenance when his fan busted. But that was not a silly unimportant interior cooling fan switch like the one that went bad on your Jetta, it was his engine's fan that broke and easily could have overheated the engine.
What was that about my blindfold?
So enough of this coming into Volkswagen forums, bashing OUR cars because of your personal experiences. Do I go into Toyota forums and curse their enthusiasts because of my grandmother and good friend being taken for a ride with their Tercel purchases? No. Do I go into Honda forums and tell everyone to "wake up" because of my aunt and father's bad luck Hondas? No. That's because I have a brain, use it, and understand that every manufacturer of every product will eventually buld a less-than-satisfactory unit. I understand why you're upset, but I just don't think that you should be ruining the topic of this thread by bashing Volkswagen quality, especially in a forum about a new generation of cars that hasn't even arrived in the US yet, and won't for some time still.
I am truly sorry that your Jetta has been a lemon, but from someone who's had 7 problem-free Volkswagens out of 7, please step off of your high horse, buy an "always reliable" Japanese car since you seem to love and trust them so much, and let us discuss the new generation of Volkswagens in peace. There are tons of forums out there for you where the minority of Volkswagen owners who become disgruntled can gather and vent in unison.
Modified by mediumbluemetalic at 7:20 PM 1-8-2009
#26
Quote, originally posted by brecker » When will this board wake up and realize that VW makes the biggest POS vehicles available today. You can either use statistics of one and rely on anecdotal evidence, or peruse information that is purposefully gathered from thousands of owners.
If you do the latter, and for example read through Consumer Reports, you will realize that the MkV is doing very well, with the 2.5l engine cars having better reliability than the average Toyota or Honda car.
#27
Quote, originally posted by mediumbluemetalic » There are tons of forums out there for you where the minority of Volkswagen owners who become disgruntled can gather and vent in unison.
Modified by mediumbluemetalic at 7:20 PM 1-8-2009http://www.myvwlemon.com or The Car Lounge.
#28
Quote, originally posted by vwtodd » From C&D: "Why is VW walking away from global cars, especially at a time when other automakers are globalizing? The company feels that American and Asian customers don't appreciate the refinement of its current offerings. "U.S. customers look at car size and engine displacement. They won't pay a dollar extra for a Passat over the Camry just because of its finesse and attention to detail," a company executive told us in Wolfsburg."
Being a Yank....and a life-long VW fan....and having grown up in a very "Buy American" town...I can tell you that many Americans DO feel this way. Many many Americans look at engine size and relate it to pecker size...every time I'd see a middle aged man in a Vette I used to yell "Sorry to hear about your pecker!!!" at them.
I heard "Kraut Burner" just as often as i heard "Rice Burner"(I also owned Toyotas). Americans can be racist, nationalistic, Über - Patriotic, Gonna Buy Me A Shivvy idiots....I was surrounded by them.
One of those same die-hard Oldsmobile guys now exclusively drives Subarus....but ht is the exception to the rule in my old neighborhood.Prime example. My aunt has a V8 Chevy Caprice.....drove it till the whells fell off then bought a more fuel-efficient car....one of the very first Ford Escorts. After about 6 months she said she would never buy a Ford again because they are too slow.
Should VW only ship Golfs and Jettas and "safe sellers"?....absolutely not. If Toyota, Honda and even Subaru eventually win over former steel workers.....so can VW.....they just need to try harder and listen to present American VW repeat owners.
Modified by hech54 at 4:56 AM 1-11-2009
#29
Yah, but at the same time, look at where the VWs are selling the hottest and have sold the best in the US. Urban areas. It's understandable that some folks will act the way you described. I used to live in Michigan. Trust me I know. But those people aren't exactly buying toyotas or hondas either. and yet toyotas and hondas always sell like hotcakes.VW needs to focus on the customer base it has made for itself while expanding out. not betraying and abandoning their base to try to get another. Audi tried that in the 80s and it was a disaster. it took a long time for them to get back. VW should not make that same mistake.
People like VWs for their understated sophitication and value price (by value i don't mean cheap. I mean that you get an awesome well designed car for lower price than you'd expect to pay).
I think the best move to make for VW is to not make an american version of their cars and sell the european versions here. They look better. And they have engine options that will satisfy the budget / mileage freaks as well as the performance folks.
Additionally, I think what the german folks said about the development of the beetle by VOA is all wrong. The are not realizing one thing. The beetle is not remembered in the US as a performance auto mobile. It was an economic means of transportation that you could fix with one wrench and a screw driver... and was reliable. When the US folks tried to design the thing, they wanted to bring that kind of transportaion back. Not produce a more expensive performance oriented car like the golf.
In all honesty, the Beetle should have been built off the polo and sold for 12000 bucks base with roll down windows. That's what enthusiasts would have wanted.
Anyway, what's done is done.
VW needs to bring in a budget car line to compete with the japanese, koreans, and americans by bringing in an under 15000K polo based car class. That will satisfy the budget minded folks. The rest of us will pay near or more than 20K for a Golf/Jetta class car. They shouldn't spend money designing a shiit car just for america.
See in WW2, the germans misunderstood the US psyche... thinking we were a nation of playboys and could only manufacture consumer products because our love of swing dancing and baseball... As a result, they thought we'd never interfere... But they got it wrong. Once again, they are making a similar mistake by misunderstanding our psyche.
If the cheap/displacement crowd won't buy your car the way it is, then don't cheapen your car so that they will buy it. Sell it to those who will buy it.
Look at suburu, legions of tree huggers, lesbians, and soccer moms buy their cars and suburu knows their market and goes after it. VW may never be as prolific in the US as honda or toyota. But they SHOULDN'T TRY TO BE. their focus should be higher profit margins not larger over all profits.
That's allstates stand... just kidding.
#31
LOL !!Just doing my bit to keep the truth as truth.
I've cooled down after getting back the Jetta from the dealer. I've owned 4 VW in the past, their records were less than average. I apologize for the venting.. All Hail VW !!
#32
Quote, originally posted by tewkewl75 » wow, no action on this thread, eh? threadkiller.
#34
What finesse is the guy talking about? Is he talking about how the interiors on a Gen 5/6 Jetta are noticeably inferior to those in a Gen 4? Is he talking about how engine choice (ie diesel) is tied to a trim level? I'd be driving a Jetta diesel right now if the interior and dash weren't ugly and they would actually let me get the highest trim level.To boot, VW, there's this thing called wood. Ever heard of it? It makes for nice trim.
#35
Concur with the Seattle poster. There's always been a certain arrogance about the German car manufacturers vis a vis their U.S. customers. Why in the dickens doesn't VW offer the three engines in all three trim levels? Last year's Passat Lux Sport Wagon did not offer Bi-Xenons. You had to get the V-6 to get the headlights.VW has a unique heritage and that's why a lot of us put up with the "arrogance" noted above. If I want a "dead in the water", "characterless" chariot, I'll look to the Japanese, papasan.
Heck, at this rate, the Chevy Malibu with the V-6 will win the "character" contest over the comparable VW. Is this what we really want and need?
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