Wagon turbo project

[reddfoxx]

From the Neils Bohr wing of Quantum Mechanics:

1987 Fox wagon turbo project, crafted by "Longitudinal"

(My job description is 'unskilled labor,' through the QM sweat equity program.)

There is some "Heisenberg uncertainty" about the completion date; more info and pix to come.

-Quantum Turbo Diesel turbo, oil pan, oil filter flange, drain, supply line, exhaust manifold
-Golf oil pump (with pickup swap)
-Audi 5000T throttle body
-Audi 4000 fuel distributor
-hybrid Audi 5000/Golf intake manifold
-Shelby Daytona intercooler
-custom adapter flange for IM/throttle body
-custom charge tubes
-custom exhaust
-Dynomax muffler

other stuff:
-E30 mounts
-A/C delete
-misc. hoses, including one "Born From Jets"

previous changes to the car:
-short shift kit
-vented rotors

coming soon (er, eventually
-head work
-A2 lowering springs
-5-speed

Old exhaust

stock engine bay

some items removed

checking fit- note grinding needed on exhaust man. for intake man. bolts.

needed some space here

new exhaust

intercooler location

Quantum Mechanics- no room at the inn (Audi 5000, Fox wagon, Audi Fox, Dasher wagon)

another Quantum Mechanics project: custom hangers for crummy Bosal Quantum exhaust

Modified by reddfoxx at 9:26 PM 1-4-2009

Modified by reddfoxx at 9:30 PM 1-4-2009


Modified by reddfoxx at 9:33 PM 1-4-2009

[mike in SC]

Nice work. Sounds fun..

[DubbinChris]

....and another one is born.

[jackfrost1031]

more pics of the intake please. I love that thing.

[reddfoxx]

Thanks, all.

Only other one I have, Zach. I guess I didn't take any before it was on; I'll have more next weekend of the end result. The intake and the new exhaust are certainly the best-looking parts of the car...

[jackfrost1031]

That'll do. Looks great!

I saw it at OSCR. I like seeing it installed

[kerensky]

Quote, originally posted by reddfoxx »

There is some "Heisenberg uncertainty" about the completion date...

*googles "Heisenberg uncertainty" - head explodes*

[Longitudinal]

After working on the wagon from about 9pm yesterday till 5am today, I got a few more things done.

Boost reference line is installed. For those who have not handled the 3K version of the TD turbo, the 3K unit has a steel line running from the compressor housing to the WG diaphragm canister. After rummaging around the shop for an hour or so looking for where I put the line, I decided it wasn't going to fit anyway due to my having re-clocked the compressor housing, and started digging through CIS hoses. I came up with an Audi Fox CSV hose and installed it. It's a good fit.

The IM requires that the TB be relocated because I shortened the runners too much, bringing the TB flange too close to the cam cover. So, I have the TB relocator built, with throttle cable bracket and a thread bung for a reference line fitting for the recirc. valve.

The cam cover also had to be modified at the breather housing for the same reason as above. That is done. The cam cover is modified, painted and installed.

IM is installed.

Turbo-to-IC charge tube is built and installed.

This car was made possible through a grant from the Ernst Schrodinger Foundation, and is being completed in the Neils Bohr wing of the Quantum Mechanics Institute, which believes that everybody deserves a chance at excellent horsepower. The Ernst Schrodinger Foundation seeks out disadvantaged persons who have found themselves limited by atmospheric pressure, but do not have the means to bring about the necessary changes in their own lives.

[iluvfastcarz]

very nice! now where is my ride?

[Difus]

What's the use of that lambda sensor: the fuel injection system or a hallmeter? I never liked those one wire sensor, it's have a slow response.
That kind of injection - that we never had here - allows enough fuel when the turbo starts? Here we use an old single point injector for the turbo phase.
How the ignition timing is controlled?

[DubbinChris]

Quote, originally posted by Longitudinal »

This car was made possible through a grant from the Ernst Schrodinger Foundation, and is being completed in the Neils Bohr wing of the Quantum Mechanics Institute, which believes that everybody deserves a chance at excellent horsepower. The Ernst Schrodinger Foundation seeks out disadvantaged persons who have found themselves limited by atmospheric pressure, but do not have the means to bring about the necessary changes in their own lives.

I'm sure I'll be donating down the road here, as I appear to be quite limited by atmospheric pressure....

[twarch]

Quote, originally posted by Longitudinal »

This car was made possible through a grant from the Ernst Schrodinger Foundation, and is being completed in the Neils Bohr wing of the Quantum Mechanics Institute, which believes that everybody deserves a chance at excellent horsepower. The Ernst Schrodinger Foundation seeks out disadvantaged persons who have found themselves limited by atmospheric pressure, but do not have the means to bring about the necessary changes in their own lives.

So...

If you put the car in a (rather large) sealed box, then the car will be both normally aspirated AND turbocharged at the same time, until you take it out of the box to look at it, at which time it "chooses" one or the other?

I'm getting a headache...

[BillLeBob]

Quote, originally posted by Longitudinal »

The Ernst Schrodinger Foundation seeks out disadvantaged persons who have found themselves limited by atmospheric pressure, but do not have the means to bring about the necessary changes in their own lives.

Pressure?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-xVb1qsPCw*

*Not a RickRoll... promise.

[twarch]

There is no gravity...
The Earth sucks...

[Longitudinal]

Quote, originally posted by BillLeBob »

Pressure?

Man, I still miss Freddy.

Tim, cat in box--good stuff. Mark and I made many a QM-related joke over the last week.

[turbinepowered]

Quote, originally posted by BillLeBob »

Pressure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-xVb1qsPCw* *Not a RickRoll... promise.

Speaking of which, I rick-rolled an entire busload of college students one night. But my job won't let me have the priceless surveillance tape that caught their reactions.

[reddfoxx]

I'll defer to Jonathan on the sensor question... I'm pretty sure it sends to the fuel injection system, and the three-wire type is unnecessary.

Sounds like you got a lot done on my off-day, Jonathan (after Smackies...)

The Schrodinger mission statement is great! And I seem to remember a cat at QM a while back- I guess it existed simultaneously as alive and dead until we opened the door...

Any rides will have to wait till I get one (and drive it!) Hopefully that's in a few days.

Modified by reddfoxx at 9:16 PM 1-5-2009

[Longitudinal]

Quote, originally posted by Difus »

What's the use of that lambda sensor: the fuel injection system or a hallmeter? I never liked those one wire sensor, it's have a slow response.

Response is fast enough for me. Bosch built them right. That said, this isn't a 500 HP treading the line between making awesome power and blowing itself apart. It's a sub-200 HP turbo project.

The sensor is for the ECU. We will use a mixture meter as well, but only for tuning and adjustment of the injection system.

It's too bad you never used CIS in Brazil. It's good stuff! But it doesn't tolerate alcohol very well, and that is probably why you never got it--that and the price of manufacture is high. Maybe they marketed the "Fox" different in Brazil--like they did the Model T or the Escort here.

[Difus]

When there the Fox uses CIS, here we have the good old Brosol/Pierburg 2E7 carb. With a lot of programable injections systems, a lot of people still using that carb, even in turbo cars. Maybe it happens cause the "dumb" Gol GTi injection, the LE-Jetronic. If I recall correct, that thing is full analogic, making tuners set keys to adjust the correct setup for the current situation (traffic or track). With a worked head, race cam, high compression ratio and other stuff, the car have a new setup for economy, for normal use and for hardcore use. And you need choose what you want in that moment.

But backing to the project, how about the ignition timing? And how the injection will work: extra fuel all time or just when the turbo starts?

[Longitudinal]

Quote, originally posted by Difus »

But backing to the project, how about the ignition timing? And how the injection will work: extra fuel all time or just when the turbo starts?

First a little English help intended in the best spirit: it's "getting back to the project," not "backing to the project."

Ignition timing will be retarded under boost by an old style Bosch advancing/retarding vacuum advance module. Lots of VW turbo projects up here use them, and they work well as long as you're not trying for 30 PSI.

Fuel: I will adjust the CIS-E as I always do so that the system starts, idles and drives normally with a correct mixture, then enriches under boost. For an extra supply of fuel under higher pressures (for this project, 7-11 PSI) I will fire an extra cold start injector. No, they don't atomize perfectly, but they atomize a lot better than people think they do, and the purpose of the extra injector is mainly to add a little bit of fuel and control exhaust temperatures. If this works well, I will use it on other turbo projects in the future.

[Difus]

I didn't thought about a cold injector.
I remember an old Larus system for timing that is a vacuum line that goes after the trottle body and is connected to the vacuum advance capsule in distributor, controlled by a valve to set the correct degree with the turbo working.

About the english, you know, think one thing, write another...


Modified by Difus at 3:22 PM 1-7-2009

[Longitudinal]

I hope the elbow hose arrives today. I really want to say goodbye to this car this weekend. Too much other work to do.

[reddfoxx]

Ditto. And I want to drive it. And haul firewood in it.

[Longitudinal]

Hoping to see the hose today.

[reddfoxx]

No hose yet. As Jonathan said, "I don't think it will get in within the next half hour if it only left sometime tomorrow." (It's coming from Hong Kong...)

Still, he has gotten a lot done.

[jackfrost1031]

Looks slick.

Hurry up china!

[mike in SC]

Wow. All this makes me want to do this to my wagon. How will the extra injector fire? Manually?
Or a pressure switch, something I read about in the FAQ CIS-E tuning guide?
Yea, come on hong kong, impatient foxers are waiting!!

[rodrigoromao]

Quote, originally posted by Difus »

When there the Fox uses CIS, here we have the good old Brosol/Pierburg 2E7 carb. With a lot of programable injections systems, a lot of people still using that carb, even in turbo cars. Maybe it happens cause the "dumb" Gol GTi injection, the LE-Jetronic. If I recall correct, that thing is full analogic, making tuners set keys to adjust the correct setup for the current situation (traffic or track). With a worked head, race cam, high compression ratio and other stuff, the car have a new setup for economy, for normal use and for hardcore use. And you need choose what you want in that moment. But backing to the project, how about the ignition timing? And how the injection will work: extra fuel all time or just when the turbo starts?

Wasn't the Bosch Je-Motronic injection substituted for the 1993 models though?

Project is coming along nicely. I really like that. How much pressure you guys are expecting to get in that btw? 0.7bar or so?

[jackfrost1031]

Are you going to use a 5 cyl fuel distributor with the 5th injector line going to the throttle body injector? Will it be triggered by a Hobbs pressure switch?

From what I've read, he plans on running about 0.7 bar or less, Rodrigo.

[Longitudinal]

Quote, originally posted by jackfrost1031 »

Are you going to use a 5 cyl fuel distributor with the 5th injector line going to the throttle body injector? Will it be triggered by a Hobbs pressure switch? From what I've read, he plans on running about 0.7 bar or less, Rodrigo.

Correct about the injector. Pressure will be stock WG pressure for now--11psi, so, yeah, around .7.

[Longitudinal]

Quote, originally posted by jackfrost1031 »

Looks slick. Hurry up china!

Still waiting. Remind me again why we sent all of our jobs to China?

[Difus]

Quote, originally posted by rodrigoromao »

Wasn't the Bosch Je-Motronic injection substituted for the 1993 models though? Project is coming along nicely. I really like that. How much pressure you guys are expecting to get in that btw? 0.7bar or so?

I don't recall now, but I don't think it happened, cause the Pointer GTi used the LE-Jetronic in 1993 and 1994, with the same engine.

[reddfoxx]

The hose finally arrived. Test fit everything, but more to do tomorrow so pix of it installed will come soon. Doesn't fit the engine bay color scheme... It does match another brand's logo a bit too closely, but it's hard to prove that in China.

A couple of QM "Take and Bake" charge tubes:

Caption this:

[BillLeBob]

Quote, originally posted by reddfoxx »

Caption this:

Awww, you boxed it up for the scrap man. How nice!

[Longitudinal]

Quote, originally posted by BillLeBob »

Awww, you boxed it up for the scrap man. How nice!

Caption fail! There are probably three people in this forum who will "get" the picture, and I am banking that you are one of them, Bill.