Anyone with a cold start misfire...

[saaber2]

jackmup, that is awesome info! Thanks for posting that!

Once you get it cleaned up (targeting cylinder #4 with seafoam and/or mechanical removal is a great idea btw) you might consider a pcv bypass or catch can if you don't already have an anti-pcv gunk solution already. Here is a pcv bypass method that has been working great for me: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387972

Also, what about misting or pulling in seafoam in the intake close to cylinder #4, is that possible (sounds like u may have tried that already?)?



Modified by saaber2 at 10:37 AM 5-22-2009

[jackmup]

Oh yeah baby you bet I'm installing a catch can. I'm going to get started in about an hour. I plan to document the process thoroughly with pics because it was so hard to find info yet so many have the problem. Thanks for the link.

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by jackmup »

Oh yeah baby you bet I'm installing a catch can. I'm going to get started in about an hour. I plan to document the process thoroughly with pics because it was so hard to find info yet so many have the problem. Thanks for the link.

Sorry to disappoint you, but cleaning the valves will have ZERO
effect on your problem....I should know...

[jackmup]

Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »

Sorry to disappoint you, but cleaning the valves will have ZERO effect on your problem....I should know...

Well technically I'm barely scratching the surface the intake valves on the inside are the cleanest. The only way to clean them is to pull the head and remove them then lap them back in. That's going to take me 4 days. I don't have the time right now or the parts.
So I figured it's worth a shot. I removed alot of nasty carbon.

The adapting worked though and it is not misfiring anymore. I don't think you would have a problem all summer but below 50 you would have to start messing with the enrichment again.

I think the actual problem may be that the ECM is sending too much gas into that cylinder. Or one of the valve seats has a piece of carbon stuck to the seat. But how are we to check the ECM the only way is to just flash it with the most recent version and that's pricey just to see if it works.

That TSB is doing something like that. It must be happening to all 2.7tb engines.

[jackmup]

Well I'm done I did al of the cylinders. filled each intake cahmber up and brushed it with long tube brushes the best i could and let it sit for an hour as i rotated cylinders then I sucked the crap out and did it again. the crap that came out chunky and looked like a diesel oil change. It leaked therough to the cylinder as it sat so I was sucking that crap out too. in the end I blew everything out the best I could put it back together and took it for a burn to blow it out. It feels more responsive.

Tomorrow morning will tell the story. will it misfire or will it run.
Funny it didn't misfire once with all that crap in there. ECM is stupid on open loop.

[iGen3]

what are you using to suck the solvent and crap out--being flammable and all...

[jackmup]

I am using a siphon for soap. Weird set up but it works. I had the thing so i used it. they are cheap It wasn't the greatest but it works.

I had a snap-on vacuum that runs off shop air but it's effin missing in action. It is the best thing for sucking out liquids from your car. You will need to modify it of course but works great. this thing will suck the crap out like mad.

Link to vacuum; http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog...talog

Just to reiterate my problem is a COLD START MISFIRE ON CYL 4. I am still working on the permanent solution/cause. It is a fuel related or combustion issue due to fuel enrichment in open loop. I actually think the ECM is either giving Cylinder 4 injector too much or too little fuel ON OPEN LOOP. This car runs so smooth on closed loop you would not even know it's running. I obviously can't check the exhaust valves without pulling the head but we all know they are sure to be
messy.

I used unisettings to turn Fuel enrichment to 0% on start-up and did not misfire this morning. So it is the ECM's fault on open loop. I will continue to test the actuation of Cylinder 4 injector,(which is good by the way-cleaned and tested and rearranged them all) I will let everyone know what if I find a difference in injection time relative to the other injectors.

I have not turned the enrichment back to 100% yet to see if the intake cleaning made a difference. I only get one shot a day unless I trick the MAF by cooling the intake air. I would rather see it on normal cold start in the morning.

I'll keep you posted, I'm getting close now.



Modified by jackmup at 8:37 AM 5-23-2009

[iGen3]

oh. Mine is also very much at hot--hot ambient and hot motor. #4 just misfires continuously. what did you use for solvent? some have suggested GM top clean.

I have my 4 injectors and clips, probably won't get to it this weekend though, too much yardwork to do. Got the pool up though, filling up now. ; )

[jackmup]

Quote, originally posted by iGen3 »

oh. Mine is also very much at hot--hot ambient and hot motor. #4 just misfires continuously. what did you use for solvent? some have suggested GM top clean. I have my 4 injectors and clips, probably won't get to it this weekend though, too much yardwork to do. Got the pool up though, filling up now. ; )

have you checked your coils,plugs and injectors. You are experiencing a different problem than me. just on the same cylinder.
Test the compression/leak down

[jackmup]

cleaning the valves was not it.

Cyl 4 has 197-200 psi all others at 187

the misfire does not occur if there is pressure in the adjuster.I learned that after the compression test. It started cold fine.

Pulling the valve cover and going to check the cam and lifters for wear

I tested the injector volume, all working evenly It's not them.
I aligned the throttle valve, not that either.

It is either a worn lobe, lifter or something to do with the cam chain adjuster. something causing cylinder 4 to have more compression.

[GolfRS]

Well good news.

The car is 99% fixed, and the problem was....yep...you guessed it...
the f***n PCV....

Now you are gonna say "well that was the first thing you should have
tried", but actually...I DID !!!

I had an older PCV that had replaced thinking i was loosing pressure a loooong time ago, but OH YES...that old PCV was obviously busted also...

Thing is all of you that have the "older" systems (the ones with 2 PCV valves, and no rear valve), you might not be losing boost, but you might be vacuum leaking.

So if you have misfires, even if your boost curve is fine, the PCV might actually be bad....

Now i said 99% fixed, cause the other 1% is the god damn cover threads, that are going sour ONE AFTER THE OTHER...I just noticed a SECOND thread has gone bye bye, and now the PCV is barely making firm contact...Gonna fix it pretty soon though.....

[GolfRS]

UPDATE: Still having one or two misfires (barely registering with VAG COM, but can still be felt), but my PCV isn't tightened well enough, PLUS
it seems to be fairly common for the oil cap to leak vacuum (well mine does anyway).

It seems now its a multifactor issue, since my O2 sensor fluctuates from
0.92 to 1.03 at idle, which would either indicate a response to the vacuum leak, or the sensor is going nuts also (is it possible to get false readings without a CEL or error ?).Anyways, i have a spare O2 sensor that will be going in pretty soon.

Other than that, my short term trim has gone up slightly, and the car idles much much better.

Too bad a bad injector can't be ruled out though...Would have liked to get at least that of my mind....Good news is... CAMS ARE ONE STEP CLOSERRRRRrrrrrrrrr.....

[iGen3]

I have the old PCV..2 up front none in back...but replaced it with a new one a month or so ago...no change....

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by iGen3 »

I have the old PCV..2 up front none in back...but replaced it with a new one a month or so ago...no change....

There are different PCV's according to your setup.

First makes sure you got the right part number for your car.

Then, there are also other parts to look for, try testing you oil cap
for leaks, and also check your injectors

[jackmup]

[QUOTE=GolfRS]Well good news.

The car is 99% fixed, and the problem was....yep...you guessed it...
the f***n PCV....

Now you are gonna say "well that was the first thing you should have
tried", but actually...I DID !!!

I had an older PCV that had replaced thinking i was loosing pressure a loooong time ago, but OH YES...that old PCV was obviously busted also...

Thing is all of you that have the "older" systems (the ones with 2 PCV valves, and no rear valve), you might not be losing boost, but you might be vacuum leaking.

So if you have misfires, even if your boost curve is fine, the PCV might actually be bad....QUOTE]

Yours was constantly misfiring though..right?

mine goes away 10-20 seconds after start up and does not come back.-until tomorrow morning that is.

I am down to the ECM on mine . I checked the cam and lifters and I don't have that problem. For some reason the ECM is spazzing on that cyclinder on cold start, The knock sensor on cyl 4 has higher voltage than the others and may be more sensitive. the ECM flash for the 1.8t controled the sensitivity to the knock sensors. We'll see, I dont have anything else to test.

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by jackmup »

Yours was constantly misfiring though..right? mine goes away 10-20 seconds after start up and does not come back.-until tomorrow morning that is. I am down to the ECM on mine . I checked the cam and lifters and I don't have that problem. For some reason the ECM is spazzing on that cyclinder on cold start, The knock sensor on cyl 4 has higher voltage than the others and may be more sensitive. the ECM flash for the 1.8t controled the sensitivity to the knock sensors. We'll see, I dont have anything else to test.

It was misfiring cold or warm, but it had its days (obviously when the PCV got stuck).

I am still having one or two misfires but i'd have to fix the threads on the cover first
to be able to say there is another reason two.

As for you, you seem to have things pretty much under control having done so many checks
in such a professional manner.Hope you get it solved soon.

[GolfRS]

Here's a new update..

Car is still misfiring even with the bew PCV.

Bad news is TWO valve cover bolts are now stripped, but the engine
maintains vacuum,.... in between misfires...Pressing firmly on the
PCV doesn't change anything, so i'm starting to rule this factor out...

I am now thinking of changing injectors,and O2 sensor...other than that....i'm lost.....

Really weird though how in the begining we had the fuel cuts, and now we have the misfires.....

[jhines_06gli]

Think I can offer a little insight here hopefully. I have battled with Vw TechSupport numerous times for this issue. I have finally gotten the district rep. for the area on my side and YES, the factory PCV system is to blame! I ran EuroJet STG 1 fix until BSH developed the catch-can. Phil hooked me up and it has been AWESOME!! Not a single misfire on my car and I use SeaFoam every 5K through the intake to clean up. I will be pulling my intake soon and checking things out and all plus pulling my injectors to inspect again, but I would highly recommend anyone with a 2.0FSI to look into catch-cans.

Here is a 2.0T, 2006 Jetta at 80K with 93 oct. fuel and Castrol5W-30 syn. changes from start........TechSupport said replace head, I removed intake and dividers and cleaned all vlaves off and soaked in parts cleaner(with valves shut) overnight and then reassembled and SeaFoamed afterwards.........ran like a "bat out of hell!!" with no misfires. Just makes sure to have a spare set of plugs for after the SeaFoam...lol.
Cyliner 4

Cylinder 2

Both these cylinders had misfires cold only. Counter would say 650-700 misfires before idle settled down!!

Sorry to be sooo long, but hope that helps a little. And it's not carbon....more of an oil-mixed goo(oil, fuel vapor and water)
-J. Hines

[jhines_06gli]

http://www.bshspeedshop.com/st...age=1

AWESOME product!!!!

[saaber2]

jhines_06gli, excellent post! And awesomely disgusting photos! A catch can+ seafoam at oil change+ fuel injector cleaner every once in a while is a good way of dealing with the pcv goo but the can doesn't stop 100% of the contaminants, needs to be emptied periodically, can create a pressure drop, and can freeze up.

Completely eliminating the pcv gunk can be accomplished without these drawbacks by routing it to the exhaust or even directly below the car. Here is a DIY:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387972

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by saaber2 »

jhines_06gli, excellent post! And awesomely disgusting photos! A catch can+ seafoam at oil change+ fuel injector cleaner every once in a while is a good way of dealing with the pcv goo but the can doesn't stop 100% of the contaminants, needs to be emptied periodically, can create a pressure drop, and can freeze up. Completely eliminating the pcv gunk can be accomplished without these drawbacks by routing it to the exhaust or even directly below the car. Here is a DIY: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387972

This routing you are suggesting...Have you actually tried it ??

Cause testing for my misfires i blocked the PCV for mere seconds and it made the
fumes enter the exhaust,and ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE...

Needless to say i was smoking like crazy for about 3 miles, and had to say its my CAT going bad
or the Police would stop me for spraying toxic warfare materials to the atmosphere.

Please don't suggest something if you haven't tried it.....

[saaber2]

Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »

Please don't suggest something if you haven't tried it.....

Please don't say anything negative about a thread unless you have read it.

This DIY does not block the PCV like you are suggesting. Quite the contrary. It uses the exhaust gases to "pull" gases out of the crankcase. I have been running it for 900 miles and so far oil consumption has decreased, mpg has went up by 2 mpg, and I have a bit more power. Those are beneficial side effects however. The real benefit is that there is no way any of the pcv gunk can make it to the valves, there is no chance for freeze up, and the crankcase is still being evacuated under vacuum. If you read the thread and links in the thread you will understand why this system works. It was tested against many other methods to evacuate crankcase gasses and was found to be the best in terms of cost and effectiveness.

[jackmup]

I have checked everything and I can shave in my intake valves thank god. My cams and lifters are good.

I'm having the ecm flashed this weekend. When I change parameters with unisettings it behaves beacause it can't do what it wants when altered/adapted outside of the audi parameters.

I'd bet my exhaust valves on cyl 4 look like that.

soaking the intakes through the injecter ports seriously helped acceleration and smoothed it out as well. Well worth the 10 bucks and two hours. Got more out of it than fancy air filter that's for sure.

[iGen3]

Quote, originally posted by jackmup »

soaking the intakes through the injecter ports seriously helped acceleration and smoothed it out as well. Well worth the 10 bucks and two hours. Got more out of it than fancy air filter that's for sure.

what did you use to clean the valves?

[jackmup]

Quote, originally posted by iGen3 »

what did you use to clean the valves?

I closed the intakes on each cylinder and poured sea foam in through the injector port. then used tube brushes like for cleaning rifles and did the best scubbing i could bu the sea foam will eat it up. Then i sucked it back out. and did it again.

You will get some into the cylinder, suck that out as you go. I would start the engine when done and blow what's left out then change the oil because some of the sea foam will make it past the rings.

[B3sat16v]

Quote, originally posted by jhines_06gli »

Think I can offer a little insight here hopefully. I have battled with Vw TechSupport numerous times for this issue. I have finally gotten the district rep. for the area on my side and YES, the factory PCV system is to blame! I ran EuroJet STG 1 fix until BSH developed the catch-can. Phil hooked me up and it has been AWESOME!! Not a single misfire on my car and I use SeaFoam every 5K through the intake to clean up. I will be pulling my intake soon and checking things out and all plus pulling my injectors to inspect again, but I would highly recommend anyone with a 2.0FSI to look into catch-cans. Here is a 2.0T, 2006 Jetta at 80K with 93 oct. fuel and Castrol5W-30 syn. changes from start........TechSupport said replace head, I removed intake and dividers and cleaned all vlaves off and soaked in parts cleaner(with valves shut) overnight and then reassembled and SeaFoamed afterwards.........ran like a "bat out of hell!!" with no misfires. Just makes sure to have a spare set of plugs for after the SeaFoam...lol. Cyliner 4 Cylinder 2 Both these cylinders had misfires cold only. Counter would say 650-700 misfires before idle settled down!! Sorry to be sooo long, but hope that helps a little. And it's not carbon....more of an oil-mixed goo(oil, fuel vapor and water) -J. Hines

How did you manage to get all the valves closed? Removed the CAM?

[jackmup]

Well, As far as my problem is concerned;I have a cold start misfire on one cylinder,no 4. It misfires only after sitting for a while or overnight. It will misfire about 40 times then go away and run fine all day and restart fine as well, until sitting overnight. (it does not misfire all day long) however if your does misfire all day,pull the valve cover and mic the cam lobes and inspect your lifters for wear or collapse.

I have tested and swapped my brand new coils, and the ECM signal.
I have cleaned and volume tested my injectors and the signal.
I checked my cam lobes and lifter buckets all working and in spec.
I have disconnected the knock sensors and still get a misfire from the crank speed sensor. I know it's real I can feel it bumble.
I have 205 psi in that cylinder in the morning all others are 187 psi
So shoved a bottle brush in the cylinder and found it had a slight amount of oil in it. ( a little oil will seal the rings even more and create higher compression and that can cause detonation). Since that cylinder has higher compression I know the valves are sealing. I think it's the valve seals leaking overnight. I have ordered 15 new seals for that head (3.0 V6 )and also new lifters for cylinder 4 and a head gasket, etc,etc... I'll be pulling the head within two weeks. I'm going to replace all that crap and give it a good cleaning. Unfortunately I won't have the time to do both heads in one weekend so I'll just have to wait for the other to go. However it is possible to do the lifters and valve seals with the head on.

Wish me luck.

[martziniuk]

Watching this thread with interest. I have a cylinder 3 misfire when cold until it gets up to normal running temp.

[jackmup]

Ok I pulled my heads. Cylinder 4 had about 1 ounce of oil in it. Due to the valve seals leaking. I dissembled the heads and cleaned them with easy off BBQ and pressure washed them, lapped the valves, installed new valve seals, put it back together. If you clean them that way don't let it sit longer than an hour that stuff is Evil.

COLD START MISFIRE (P0304) PROBLEM SOLVED!

It took me 3 Long Long days, Parts were all gaskets, o-rings and head bolts, coolant and oil. But the Labor was to say the least intensive.

The car starts the best I have seen since I purchased it and I am getting 22MPG (up from 19) So that was a nice surprise.

To test and see if this is your problem.

Pull the spark plug out of your problem cylinder in the morning.
Shove a long whit pipe cleaner bent to lower side of the cylinder. It should not come up wet if it does. Determine if it is oil or coolant.
Next do a compression test if you have 185 or higher (mine was 203psi) and you have oil in the cylinder not coolant Replace your valve seals. If it's coolant and /or you have low compression that would be a head gasket. If it's Oil and you have low compression it could be a leaking seals and a hung valve or head gasket.

But don't worry You'll be replacing the head gaskets along with the seals. So happiness can be found all around

There also is a method for doing them with the heads on the car but you can't inspect and lap the valves or inspect for and clean excessive carbon build-up with them on the car. However it would be a lot faster to replace them on the car.

By the way they cost .95 cents each.

[martziniuk]

I think my problem may be similar to yours. Does VCDS show up any misfires now?
With mine it seems strange the misfires do not occur until about half a mile into the journey, then disapear when warm. Also they only happen around 2500-3500 rpm, the rest of the rev range is fine. You would think there would a decent amount of blue smoke on start up too??
My car does use alot of oil, 1 litre to 1000 mile roughly.

[jackmup]

That sounds like something else if it were the seals it would happen after sitting for a while, worse on colder days. It would misfire, stumble on startup than run better after 20 seconds or if you rev the engine and blow the oil down the pipe.

Your could be coil related, wiring, timing???

[martziniuk]

I have already tried a new coil pack and swapped plugs around. The coil pack made it a little better but I did notice that the spark plug in the cylinder where the misfire occurred had more white deposits on it than the others.
My fault codes are:
001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow
P0441 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
misfire on cylinder 3
random misfire

Out of interest what was your oil consumption like?
Thanks


Modified by martziniuk at 5:05 AM 9-15-2009

[ThaProwla]

i haven't read this whole thread but i'm pretty sure that there is a tb for this conceren on this these motors. i'll get back in a lil bit with the tb #.

[JLT]

prob injectors...that was my prob with cyl #4 cold start misfire.

[martziniuk]

Quote, originally posted by JLT »

prob injectors...that was my prob with cyl #4 cold start misfire.

Its starting to look that way with mine, the colour of the plug compared to the others may suggest this. Why the hell should they get blocked? Interestingly when running 99ron instead of the 95ron petrol the misfires just about disappear


Modified by martziniuk at 11:56 AM 9-21-2009