INA Engineering : Official VWVortex Rotrex Supercharger Thread - KITS , TECH & FAQ

[INA]

*** OFFICIAL VWVORTEX ROTREX SUPERCHARGER THREAD ***

INA Engineering is looking for forum regulars to "test" our PG kits along side our 1.8T kits.If you are interested in upgrading from a G60 to a Rotrex unit and you are looking for an introductory deal then please do not hesitate to EMAIL US with details of your project.

In stock form the G60 motor has been fun but being a former G60 MKII owner I am sure I speak for the forum when I say we all know how finicky these little babies can be.I have campaigned for years for Hybrid G60's (See Thread 1 & Thread 2) just so users could get more power out of there engines but sadly one major fact still remains.The G60 supercharger is an inefficient 20+ year old design.We have seen companies develop products for the G60 charger in more ways than one and to that I give a huge to many of them as they have inspired me to do what I am doing today.

INA Engineering was founded on the principle of "outside the box" thinking by bringing new ideas to old platforms.This latest project we have been working on since late 2007.We were supposed to debut it @ WF08 but sadly it did not happen.Enough about the history lesson....onto the main show. (grab your popcorn)

INTRODUCING Rotrex Supercharger kits for Volkswagen/Audi.The first available complete kit in North America for the PG G60 & other various VW/Audi engines.

Quote, originally posted by INA Engineering - Rotrex G60 replacement kit »

Kit includes: Rotrex C30-XX supercharger with Hub Assembly torqued to supercharger. Rotrex Supercharger pulley with the following choices in diameter 70,75,80,85,90,95,100,105 & 110mm Rotrex self contained oiling system which includes: (1) Oil canister (1) Magnetic Oil filter (1) SX100 Oil (10) feet of rubber line (10) clamps for line + various other hardware components INA Engineering CNC machined bracket for supercharger & oil canister OEM accessory bracket to replace stock G60 bracket PRICE = $2559 US + Shipping Add the following & pay only an extra $240 US Brand new 90A Isaka ABA alternator T6061 CNC machined pulley for H20 pump & Alternator pulley (images of the kit will be posted shortly)

Vortex members can download the data direct from Rotrex's website or you can click the following links below.Feel free to browse the website and obtain whatever information you need.The short take on the product: (taken direct from Rotrex's website because it is that good )

Quote, originally posted by Short Take »

Rotrex is the leading manufacturer of high speed traction drives. The patented planetary drive allows speeds up to 250,000rpm offering high efficiency, compactness, reliability and silent operation. Supercharger Set up & Maintenance Rotrex standard product range consists of the C15, C30 and C38 families. The unique small size of the C15 makes it the most compact supercharger on the market. The C30 and C38 cover the market for larger displacement engines. C15-XX Up to 2Lt Engine Capacity Less than 50hp to 200hp Engine Output 201,500 rpm Maximum Impeller Speed 1 : 12.67 Gear Ratio Rotrex C15-XX Technical Data Sheet C30-XX 1Lt to 4.5Lt Engine Capacity 100hp to 400hp Engine Output 120,000 rpm Maximum Impeller Speed 1 : 9.49 Gear Ratio Rotrex C30-XX Technical Data Sheet C38-XX 3Lt to 6Lt Engine Capacity 300hp to 630hp Engine Output 90,000 rpm Maximum Impeller Speed 1 : 7.5 Gear Ratio Rotrex C38-XX Technical Data Sheet

From time to time we see questions come up along the lines of how is "X" supercharger better than "Y" supercharger.I am not here to address every single supercharger out there,just the ones that concern me.

Quote, originally posted by PROS VS CONS »

PROS of Rotrex vs G60 VERY Low Maintenance Availability - unless Rotrex goes bankrupt,these units will be available for years to come New technology which surpasses the efficiency of the 20+ year old G60 units. More compact design.Allows for larger model superchargers to fit in engine bay. Wide range of Supercharger pulley diameter Quiet - yes the Rotrex makes no noise so there is no need to silence this bad boy. INDEPENDENT Oiling System - very crucial.We have seen many G60's fail because they use the same engine oil that runs through the motor.Failed rod bearing = failed supercharger 1 Support bracket - Because the unit is lightweight & compact there is no need for a rear support bracket leaving users the option of freeing up the crankcase breather port for a catch can. 1 PRICE POLICY - The difference in prices between the C15 & C38 series is minimal at $200US. High reputation worldwide CONS of Rotrex kit vs G60 PRICE - essentially this is the only con of the Rotrex kit.However once the initial investment is made there will be no need to pay for rebuilds every couple 50,000 km's.Perfect for your piece of mind Clockwise rotation only - users who want to mount there charger in the stock G60 air box region (we have had requests for this) wont be able to do it with a Rotrex Offset - The centre of the drive belt must be no more than 23mm away from the face of the unit.Failure to do this in the design will void the warranty.This meant that we were not able to make an adapter from the Rotrex to the stock G60 bracket.

NOTE : We can build a rotrex kit for practically any 4 or 5 cylinder Volkswagen & Audi.We have the engines on stands,the drawings in hand & the frames to test them.If you are interested in being part of a special INA Engineering project then simply do not hesitate to ask

Here is a sample of our 1.8T kit in testing right now.

Thank you so much for the awesome feedback and support over the years guys

[deth_core]

[Z-Raddo G60]

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Z-Raddo G60 »

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[slammed86golf]

setup look good any idea on the power it could put out on a 20v?

[G60 CAB]

This has Mike's name all over it. The Harley needs this.

[Snowhere]

Yea, what type of power are we talking for the stock PG motor? What level of boost with what pulley and how does the power delivery look like? Or, for 15 to 20 psi, what would the setup be and what would the dyno curve look like?

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by slammed86golf »

setup look good any idea on the power it could put out on a 20v?

Hoping for around 300whp on the 20V.Will keep you guys posted with the results.
I am not going to guess on the power output of the PG G60.I am talking via PM's/emails with some guys right now who want to be test platforms for this project.If you are interested simply send me a PM.

[MA_XXX]

i've been waiting for you to announce this for 6 months so i can talk about it!!!!

this is super-exciting!!! these little babies can be force-fed by a turbo as well, with no ill-effects

i kinda wish they did make a little noise though

[slammed86golf]

dam i wish i didnt start buy my parts for my BT setup or i would be all over this.

[JBETZ]

do you have a kit or are you just advertising the raw centrifugal rotrex unit.

if you have a real kit please post the hardware and data.

[INA]

Quote, originally posted by JBETZ »

do you have a kit or are you just advertising the raw centrifugal rotrex unit. if you have a real kit please post the hardware and data.

We have a complete kit for a PG G60 8V motor.Hardware images will be posted shortly.

[JBETZ]

Quote, originally posted by INA »

We have a complete kit for a PG G60 8V motor.Hardware images will be posted shortly.

rotrex set ups for the pg g60 have been around for many many years now. are you doing up a new set up or reviving an older one? ive had a couple customers with this blower set bring their cars to our shop for tuning and repairs. looking forward to seeing your data and pics of this set up.

[nextproject]

This is great news. Is the kit being developed with the outlet matching up to current boost pipes? or will a custom intercooler inlet pipe need to be made?

I can't wait to see how these perform, although i really gotta wonder who's going to be the first to take the plunge, i'd do it in a heartbeat. But unfortunately i dont have 2600 bucks to use to spend on something to replace something thats working fine right now.

I wish you would have spoke more with me via email, i hadnt received a reply from the response i sent you over a month ago.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by JBETZ »

rotrex set ups for the pg g60 have been around for many many years now. are you doing up a new set up or reviving an older one? ive had a couple customers with this blower set bring their cars to our shop for tuning and repairs. looking forward to seeing your data and pics of this set up.

With the new generation rotrex set ups?Have not seen one as yet.As far as I know this is the first G60 replacement kit available with the Rotrex supercharger brand.There are companies in Europe that claim to have kits but I have not heard of anyone using them or testing them.

Quote, originally posted by nextproject »

I wish you would have spoke more with me via email, i hadnt received a reply from the response i sent you over a month ago.

Thats wierd.I reply to all my emails within 8 hours ....you sure?
send me the email again and I will reply to it.

[nextproject]

i think they person i was talking to was ina on the forum, i didnt mean to come off as mad. i know emails get lost and sent to spam folders, i was just sayin, i did send several, got some replies, then it all stopped, i didnt pursue it because i thought you guys were pretty slammed (im sure you are though)

I will send another email later tonight.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by nextproject »

i think they person i was talking to was ina on the forum, i didnt mean to come off as mad. i know emails get lost and sent to spam folders, i was just sayin, i did send several, got some replies, then it all stopped, i didnt pursue it because i thought you guys were pretty slammed (im sure you are though) I will send another email later tonight.

INA = wizard-of-od = me
I have 2 staff members but I am usually the one that replies to the emails.This is really wierd and I am sorry about that.Send me one tonight.

[the_mad_rabbit]

That looks EXTREMELY tempting

Too bad both of my chargers are in good condition

-AJ

[JBETZ]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

As far as I know this is the first G60 replacement kit available with the Rotrex supercharger brand.There are companies in Europe that claim to have kits but I have not heard of anyone using them or testing them.

Like I've said, had at least two Corrado G60 Rotrex supercharged cars in my shop. Have you ever ran a Rotrex centrifugal supercharger on the G60 PG 8v engine or driven a car with one on it?

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by JBETZ »

Like I've said, had at least two Corrado G60 Rotrex supercharged cars in my shop. Have you ever ran a Rotrex centrifugal supercharger on the G60 PG 8v engine or driven a car with one on it?

John not exactly sure what you are getting at.
I understand your need to protect your Lysohlm market but this product is completely different to what you offer.

Have I ever ran a Rotrex unit on a G60? NO...
Why did I develop a G60 replacement kit? Because I wanted to,I saw a gap in the industry and I focused on it.An OEM+ replacement for the G60 with no silencer needed.We are in the process of getting people on board for testing.If you are interested in something then send me a PM mate

[JBETZ]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

John not exactly sure what you are getting at. I understand your need to protect your Lysohlm market but this product is completely different to what you offer.

What am I getting at, I'm getting at exactly what my questions have stated. You posted that you have a complete kit for the PG G60 market. Most people would think that you have already built this product and ran it on an actual car. When are you going to post the pics? I have asked you simple, polite and non threatening questions here. What have I stated that is defensive of our Lysholm market? Or is it that I am just in here simply asking you these questions and you are defensive I am not at all concerned about a Rotrex kit for the PG G60 as they have been available for over a decade now, or for that matter any four cylinder engine running a centrifugal charger. It will be interesting to see the data when compared to the g-lader and or a turbo replacement on this engine.

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

Have I ever ran a Rotrex unit on a G60? NO... Why did I develop a G60 replacement kit? Because I wanted to,I saw a gap in the industry and I focused on it.An OEM+ replacement for the G60 with no silencer needed.We are in the process of getting people on board for testing.If you are interested in something then send me a PM mate

Have you mounted one on a PG G60 engine, or are you just planning this? This is great, wish you the very best If you have built the actual hardware please post the pics.
peace

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by JBETZ »

This is great, wish you the very best If you have built the actual hardware please post the pics. peace

Will do
Thanks for the support

[jwatts]

It's always a thrill for me to see a new toy to add to the old Corrado's list of power adders. It's even more fun when I get to tweak and tune on one first hand.

We have toyed with almost all of the options out there and even merged a couple of them together for the fun of it. We have experience with everything from g-laders to eatons to lysholms to turbos and even twin charged setups, but this will be our first taste of the rotrex experience. I know that this is not the first attempt at a rotrex conversion, but I have the feeling it will be the most successful.

We at SNS are anxiously awaiting the arrival of one of the INA kits to boost up one of our own . The plan is to offer an SNS tune with the kits. We are talking about stock replacement to stage 4 for right now, but I'm sure the pulleys will get smaller and injectors will get larger before too long . If it all works out well enough, maybe I'll have to throw one on my fox mustang, too .

[Peter Tong]

Now thats going to be a sweet combo...

I'd give it a go myself on the twin screw Cabby but i've got enough on my plate...

[INA]

Looking forward to working with SNS to come up with an affordable solution for the community.

[GLImax]

pics?

[jwatts]

There'll be plenty of pics when the kit shows up in the ATL

[REPOMAN]

What kind of boost pressure and heat will we see from these chargers?

if we have a OEM crank pully of 5 3/4" = 146mm
and the smallest Rotrex charger pully is 70mm
then that makes it a 2.0:1 engine rpm to charger rpm ratio
that means on a PG engine i would see 6500rpm = 13000
on a built engine i could see 8000rpm = 16000
that would mean the charger input shaft will be spinning
13000rpm or 16000rpm
at 1:7.5 impeller ratio on your largest charger
that equals 97500rpm or 112000rpm

on the C38-61 the flow chart shows a 3.6 - 4.6 pressure ratio

1 psi = 0.7031 grams/square millimetre

at the maxime Charger RPM at 0.40 kg/S
x 3.6 = 1.44 kg 0r 1.4 bar =20psi
x 4.6 = 1.84 kg or 1.8 bar =26psi

the C38-71 shows at max rpm a 0.45 kg/s
x 4.6 = 2.07kg or 2.0 bar = 29psi
this looks goodBUT the flow chart shows 115000 rpm
were the ad says 90,000 rpm Maximum Impeller Speed
NOTE 90,000 RPM limit
so in relality 0.40 kg/s
x 2.8 = 1.12 kg or 1.0 bar = 15.9 psi

This is the largest Rotrex charger on the charts provided
after doing the math on all that data provided i still don't know what
the thermal dynamics are? how hot is the charged air?

Modified by REPOMAN at 8:57 PM 2-1-2009

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

this looks goodBUT the flow chart shows 115000 rpm were the ad says 90,000 rpm Maximum Impeller Speed NOTE 90,000 RPM limit

Assuming the use of a 70mm unit.Most Rotrex chargers leave Rotrex with either a 90mm or 100mm pulley

[REPOMAN]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

Assuming the use of a 70mm unit.Most Rotrex chargers leave Rotrex with either a 90mm or 100mm pulley

ok so a stock PG 144mm crank pully at 6500 rpm

90mm = 1.6:1 ratio = 10400 x 7.5 = 78000 charger impeller RPM
100mm= 1.4:1 ratio = 9100 x 7.5 = 68250 charger impeller RPM

on the 3.0l-6.0l charger flow chart

90mm 78000 = 2.4 at 0.30 = .72kg/s = 10 psi
100mm 68250 =2.0 at 0.25= 5.0kg/s = 7psi

Modified by REPOMAN at 8:50 PM 2-1-2009

[jwatts]

the boost is going to depend on how much air the engine can suck down ass well as the rpm the blower is going to be turning.
The rotrex maps should read just like a turbo compressor map, but you have to have an idea of how much power you are going to make. In the case of a pg, we'll assume 200 crank hp. Convert estimated HP to airflow and it'll give you a better idea of the pressure ratio and rpm that the unit will have to run.


Modified by jwatts at 9:04 AM 2-2-2009

[Flying Squirrell]

Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

What kind of boost pressure and heat will we see from these chargers? if we have a OEM crank pully of 5 3/4" = 146mm and the smallest Rotrex charger pully is 70mm then that makes it a 2.0:1 engine rpm to charger rpm ratio that means on a PG engine i would see 6500rpm = 13000 on a built engine i could see 8000rpm = 16000 that would mean the charger input shaft will be spinning 13000rpm or 16000rpm at 1:7.5 impeller ratio on your largest charger that equals 97500rpm or 112000rpm on the C38-61 the flow chart shows a 3.6 - 4.6 pressure ratio 1 psi = 0.7031 grams/square millimetre at the maxime Charger RPM at 0.40 kg/S x 3.6 = 1.44 kg 0r 1.4 bar =20psi x 4.6 = 1.84 kg or 1.8 bar =26psi the C38-71 shows at max rpm a 0.45 kg/s x 4.6 = 2.07kg or 2.0 bar = 29psi this looks goodBUT the flow chart shows 115000 rpm were the ad says 90,000 rpm Maximum Impeller Speed NOTE 90,000 RPM limit so in relality 0.40 kg/s x 2.8 = 1.12 kg or 1.0 bar = 15.9 psi This is the largest Rotrex charger on the charts provided after doing the math on all that data provided i still don't know what the thermal dynamics are? how hot is the charged air? ok so a stock PG 144mm crank pully at 6500 rpm 90mm = 1.6:1 ratio = 10400 x 7.5 = 78000 charger impeller RPM 100mm= 1.4:1 ratio = 9100 x 7.5 = 68250 charger impeller RPM on the 3.0l-6.0l charger flow chart 90mm 78000 = 2.4 at 0.30 = .72kg/s = 10 psi 100mm 68250 =2.0 at 0.25= 5.0kg/s = 7psi

Repoman I respect and trust your word because of the great things you have done.
I have been trying to figure out how much boost the Rotrex put out and was confused by your very valid sounding math, when I came across a mistake you made in the conversion of Kg/s (kilograms per second) and confusing it with “1 psi = 0.7031 grams/square millimeter”

Here in the spec sheet is the conversion, 1 Kg/s x 1731.8 = CFM link

.40kg/s = 691 cfm! And .72kg/s = 1247 CFM!!

Looking at the middle housing with the biggest compressor, C30-94 with a max impeller rpm of 10k and drive ratio of 1:9.49 Using a 100mm pulley 7000 rpm gets an impeller speed of 95659 (100K)
75% line crosses 100k rpm @ .28kg/s and 2.7 pressure ratio

Using this data and this Calculator I get this.

I might have made a wrong assumption somewhere, so please correct me.

If I did the math correct 25 psi and 330 hp!

edit: oops i used a 2 liter


Modified by Flying Squirrell at 5:01 PM 10-25-2009

[G'D60]

Keeping an eye on this...

[drkreign]

I emailed you guys about your setup (1.9l corrado), I was wondering where are you guys located at?

[REPOMAN]

Wow it has been awhile since i wrapped my mind around this. I am sure i was as
thorough with my numbers as i could be.
I believe i got the Conversion table from a Collage website.
if these will produce 25psi thats great. i can't wait to see some Dyno # on a
1.8 8v or a 2.0l 8v or a 1.8 16v 2.0l 16v 1.8 20v. anything in the VW stable

1 kilogram/square millimetre = 1422.32 psi : 1 psi = 0.7031 grams/square millimetre



Modified by REPOMAN at 7:29 PM 10-28-2009