INA Engineering : Official VWVortex Rotrex Supercharger Thread - KITS , TECH & FAQ

[Flying Squirrell]

Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

i can't wait to see some Dyno # on a 1.8 8v or a 2.0l 8v or a 1.8 16v 2.0l 16v 1.8 20v. anything in the VW stable

ME TOO!

Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

1 kilogram/square millimetre = 1422.32 psi : 1 psi = 0.7031 grams/square millimetre

Yes but rotrex specifications dont use kilograms/square mm (measure of pressure)
they use Kg/s = kilograms per second (measure of mass flow rate)

[Nine2cg60]

Subscribed... and waiting for results

[L8 APEKS]

Holy crap that's expensive. I wish companies would realize it's less attractive now that the cost of such an upgrade costs 3x what I paid for my G60 to begin with.

Cool deal I guess, I just wish it was 10 years earlier. I'd seen a few other Rotrex G60's over the years. They were about the same power wise as any of the other retrofit kits out there. In the end, no matter what form of boost, you're still stuck with the same CFM potential as any SOHC 8V.

I still think if someone posted up the specs for brackets to mount the M90, that's the best value out there. The blower alone is $250 all day long, and it would cost well under $1000 to get everything dialed in. Trouble is, anytime someone makes brackets, they either horde all the info and keep it secret, or they try to get rich off of it and sell 2 little chunks of aluminum for $900.

[drkreign]

Well I kind of agree with ya L8, I paid 2k for my rado an this charger setup is going to cost me more than my car . But given this thing replaces a bracket and is included in the kit, the s/c, and everything else for the swap and is "only" 2600, that doesn't seem to bad given other charger setups *cough*lysholm*cough* cost ~400 more and net the same power as this kit SHOULD but only include a charger, pulley and a belt. Plus the rotrex charger is quite which is great IMHO cause it makes able to net the power we want but be quite for a daily drive.

Price is kind of for the car it goes on (cause the cars are obviously getting older and getting cheaper to boot), but compared to any other setup (minus the turbo application, and who honestly wants to replace the s/c for a turbo anyways ) this is prolly the best solution for price to replace the G60 which will eventually catch up in price of this kit.

I honestly can't wait to see the numbers and would love to test one on my car *hint hint* cause I hate replacing a charger ever 10-20k miles cause it gets exspensive QUICK. But that's my

[GTI1-G60]

To bad the USA is a very long swim otherwise my engine would they ultimate 8V 1825cc testcase.

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by drkreign »

other charger setups *cough*lysholm*cough* cost ~400 more

Yeah, I'm not sure why BBM raised their prices. It used to cost 2600 for the kit. Though, used Lysholm kits usually go for 1500 or so, which is nearly $1000 less than the Rotrex setup, and more efficient (albeit louder).

Do a search for dynos, there's been Rotrex Corrados that have dyno'd before. They've been around longer than the lysholms have. Numbers are about the same as everything else from what I remember.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by L8 APEKS »

I still think if someone posted up the specs for brackets to mount the M90, that's the best value out there. The blower alone is $250 all day long, and it would cost well under $1000 to get everything dialed in. Trouble is, anytime someone makes brackets, they either horde all the info and keep it secret, or they try to get rich off of it and sell 2 little chunks of aluminum for $900.

Sorry but your logic is flawed a little bit...especially with respect to Rotrex knowledge of the past and current.

You really think an Eaton (Heaton as it is more commonly known in the supercharger world) is the best value out there? I disagree nicely....unless you sit down infront of ebay for an entire year and pick up everyone single M90 unit (or similar) then you WILL be forking over $2000+ for a new OEM unit.

If you want to be an enthusiast and share information then by all means go right ahead as I am sure many people would LOVE to have that information from you.You let me know what your time is worth....

I have posted this before and I will post this again,for many advertisers on here this IS our bread and butter so we have to look @ every hour that goes by in the day as a means of collecting $X/hour.
Lets say I would like to be paid $20 USD/hour to develop a supercharger kit and it takes me lets say 60 hours to develop it.That is 1200 USD of development costs that have to be incorporated into the sale of the kits.Lets say I develop 10 kits,that means each person will pay the following:
* Cost of supercharger
* Cost of materials needed to mount it
* $120 development cost
* Mark up to cover overheads.

Very few people actually understand the aftermarket performance business model.

There are many people out there that will pay for quality and infact I have been doing my best to grow the rotrex application library.So far we have:
* ABA 16V
* 9A 16V
* ABA 8V
* AEB 20V
* 06A 20V

Now if you are wondering why the PG G60 kit is not done is due to the simple reason that I UNDERSTAND that most G60 owners do not want to spend $3000+ on a charger kit so I have been revising the kit as many times as possible to get the cheapest configuration done IF we did move to production.That has been one of the major hold ups...

If you want me to spend $250USD of your money, send me the charger you would like and I will develop a kit for you. You will own all the drawings and development material.Lets see if you want to make it happen.

[REPOMAN]

I have searched and haven't found any real data on the WHP numbers on a Rotrex setup for any VW4cyl.
after searching the web the only thing i found was on the
ORZ website stating 195WHP @ 16psi. I believe this is highly suspect
due to the other inflated numbers they show on the web site on other
known setups.

Seems like alot of effort for a Obsolete engine plateform.
in the day of VVTI, MIVEC, and other modern engine technoligy where
little bolt on mods are producing 350+whp it seems an excersize in
engineering over common sence.
A modern engine swap seems the most cost effective way to get
the most performance.



Modified by REPOMAN at 4:34 PM 11-1-2009

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

Seems like alot of effort for a Obsolete engine plateform.

As much as I agree with you, you have to remember we represent a very small % of VAG owners across the globe.
The G60 engine ie STILL very much alive in Europe with parts being developed everyday.Unfortuantely I have come to realise that developing parts to sell 2-5 at a time is no way to grow a company.

[drkreign]

Plus doing a complete motor swap (unless you hold all the parts you've gathered for years) costs the same or more depending on how much you do. This kit shouldn't take very long to install and for the most part just about anyone can install it (with a lil know how of course).

@ 16 PSI IF it's creating ~195 Whp that isn't to bad for this motor. Figure it this way, the lysholm full stage 4 creates ~225 whp according to their site. But most people have placed much lower on that setup, most I have read they end up creating ~195-200 hp. So for this kit you get just as much HP as the lysholm or a VR6 (stock) but don't have the whine of the lysholm OR the price/headache of doing a complete motor swap. To me, that seems like a good combination.

Sam, you NEED to bring this kit out, there are alot of people that want this

[GTI1-G60]

Doing 256whp with the old Gchager, I hope a Rotrex can beat this number?

[REPOMAN]

Not likly to beat 256whp. i only made 236whp on the 8v w/ digi and
i don't think it is going to beat that either.
that being said it is still another option then not having one.
the Gladders are fewer and fewer and the Lysholm 2087 is no longer.
I believe there is going to be a new option for bolt on replacement for
the G60 in the near future from an old trusted tuner.

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by drkreign »

@ 16 PSI IF it's creating ~195 Whp that isn't to bad for this motor. Figure it this way, the lysholm full stage 4 creates ~225 whp according to their site. But most people have placed much lower on that setup, most I have read they end up creating ~195-200 hp.

Stage 4 Lysholm doesn't make anywhere NEAR 225whp. 225 CRANK HP is more like it. I drove mine in that state for years and dyno'd more than once...at sea level, in cool weather.

If the same margin of error can be expected between advertised and actual power on the rotrex, then...I'm keeping my G-Lader, thanks.

The only similar comparison I can find displacement-wise is the Lotus Exige S...it's a 1.8L with a rotrex supercharger @ 7.25psi. However, it also has variable valve timing and lift (Toyota 2ZZ engine). It makes 218 crank HP on that far more advanced 1.8L @ 7.25psi. On our dinosaurs, I would expect significantly less gain...the 2ZZ engine has a compression ratio of 11.5 to 1, compared to the G60's 8 to 1.

As for the Eaton...it's value is contingent on the owner's goals. If you're looking for a more reliable replacement than the G-Lader, then yes - it's the best value, period.

If you're looking to shatter WHP records, then obviously no, it isn't.

REPOMAN said it best I think. A lot of effort, in a very poor economy, to a group known for being cheap to begin with, on an antiquated powerplant! I applaud your effort and your enthusiasm, but you gotta put it in reach of the common G60 owner, most of which are no older than 24 years old!

(I'm older, but no more better off financially than most teenagers unfortunately.)

Make the M90 kit, and price it under $1200 for everything EXCEPT the charger itself. I would bet you even money that you'll sell FAR MORE of those kits than you will the rotrex.

As a matter of fact, price it under $1000 and I would personally buy one.


Modified by L8 APEKS at 9:19 AM 11-2-2009

[drkreign]

Just checked BBM and they say 225+ hp on a stage 4 lysholm (doesn't say wheel or crank) I just assumed whp, but if the dyno's you were on show far below this then that is crank hp that BBM has posted and at 225 (calculating a 15% drop in power for crank to the wheels) means the lysholm makes ~192whp. Which if that is the case and these kits will produce the same numbers as the lysholm it seems like a no brainer to me (personally).

Rotrex:
No loud noises
makes same power as lysholm
doesn't need rebuilt like gladder does (least not as frequent)
just as efficient as a gladder

What more could you ask for? I mean the price is still high on the kit listed for most of the people on this forum, but, as Sam mentioned the cost to design the setup, plus everything he's selling you, it really seems like the price is very competitive.

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by drkreign »

Rotrex: No loud noises makes same power as lysholm doesn't need rebuilt like gladder does (least not as frequent) just as efficient as a gladder

The lysholm twin screw is the most efficient supercharger on the market - over 80% volumetric and adiabatic efficiency. The G60 doesn't come close to that (60% range IIRC?). So there's a big gap in the middle!

Although the Rotrex is just as efficient as the Lysholm (both blow the G60 out of the water), I'm not sure how to compare them, because the Rotrex essentially a belt-driven turbocharger, with impeller speeds of over 200,000 RPM. It's centrifugal, which means it will not provide the low-RPM boost of the (positive displacement) Lysholm. It should build boost more akin to a turbocharger (more dependent on RPM's).

The Rotrex seems like a very cool unit...but it's just so far out of range for 99% of the G60 enthusiasts here. If someone has the means, pick one up...I have a feeling it will work very well if you've got deep enough pockets!

According to the compressor maps on the Rotrex, it should support enough flow to make over 200whp, depending on which family of charger you're using (C15 is the smallest I think...and up from there). The limiting factor usually isn't the form of forced induction though...I think people fail to break the 200whp mark because of lack of overall airflow (need headwork with the G60 setups because it's not as efficient).

OP...I hope you get some video of a G60 on the dyno with this thing! Please be honest and up front with the modifications on the test car so we have an idea of real world numbers! Let's see some video!

PS...the old Rotrex videos that I used to be able to find maybe 8 years ago are no more...but IIRC, they were using the C15 unit, NOT the C30 unit. If that's the case, this kit (using the C30) should surpass 200whp without a problem.



Modified by L8 APEKS at 11:12 AM 11-2-2009

[GTI1-G60]

The photo is an old style Rotrex.
They have improved check there site for the new internal setup.

There is a company developing a new Gchager unit.
http://www.ausleidenschaft.de/
It's in german and a crappy flash demo. But worth the waiting.

Still interested in what the new Rotrex could do on my engine.
Problem I face is the lack of details how to compare a G60 vs Rotex unit.
In my case G60 with 60mm wheel max 8200rpm VS Rotrex.

[The Green]

Quote, originally posted by GTI1-G60 »

Doing 256whp with the old Gchager, I hope a Rotrex can beat this number?

Whats wrong with shipping?
I ship and receive quite a lot from/to the US and is simple as hel.

Issam is a very cool guy to deal with.
My drysump, alternator setup, turbo collector, oil canister with integrated catch tank,... comes from INA

If power is not what is expected with the future setup then I will most likely order a rotrex too

[GTI1-G60]

Shipping is not a problem, 80% if my engine internals are from the USA.

But making a right choice is.

[drkreign]

The problem will always be that the gladder inefficient compared to the other chargers and the fact they shred themselves in a short amount of time when you pull power from them. So unless this new setup up's the efficiency of the charger AND makes it last longer (or forever ) the other chargers are still a better choice, which sucks cause I personally like the Gladder, quite and a powerful setup for what it is. But are there any release dates on the new gladder?

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by L8 APEKS »

I'm not sure how to compare them, because the Rotrex essentially a belt-driven turbocharger, with impeller speeds of over 200,000 RPM. It's centrifugal, which means it will not provide the low-RPM boost of the (positive displacement) Lysholm. It should build boost more akin to a turbocharger (more dependent on RPM's).

If you are not sure how to compare them then why are you still posting about a supercharger you have no clue about? The image you posted is a rotrex unit from the late 90's...
welcome to 2010.

[REPOMAN]

I have purchased items from INA Engineering and have had great service.

I am not looking to go Rotrex SC but i would like more information about it like many others.
Morbid curiosity

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed »

If you are not sure how to compare them then why are you still posting about a supercharger you have no clue about? The image you posted is a rotrex unit from the late 90's... welcome to 2010.

Sounds like you misunderstood me. It's comparing apples to butt plugs...they have similar efficiency but operate in completely different ways. One is a supercharger with positive displacement, the other is a belt-driven centrifugal turbocharger.

Oh, PS...the SOHC engine you're tuning is from the 70's. Welcome to 2010.

[drkreign]

Both of you are wrong.....welcome to 09, don't speed up time any faster than it is goin already

My thing is that this charger gives our platform a different option. I know for ALOT of guys on here they didn't run the lysholm cause it has a whine that's annoying for long hauls (which people still do in their rados). This eliminates that issue and still nets power.

Plus, besides a custom turbo setup, the only direct bolt on setup was the lysholm, which, gives BBM the right to charge a higher rate cause unless you want to rebuild a Gladder all the time that is the only other choice. Which, as we learned in economics, one reason for higher prices is a Monopoly which BBM has on performance chargers. Competition may start to help prices drop.

Now with all that said WHEN IS THIS BIATCH GUNNA BE OUT?!?!?! And more importanly, when can I get one on MY car?!?!?!

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by drkreign »

Now with all that said WHEN IS THIS BIATCH GUNNA BE OUT?!?!?! And more importanly, when can I get one on MY car?!?!?!

I'm eagerly awaiting dynos!

[vw leben]

10 Months later, Where are the installed (Test) pics?

[Issam Abed]

this?

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed »

this?

No...I think we were hoping for an install and a dyno test on a G60 (PG) engine, since this is the G60 forum and not the 1.8/2.0 16V forum...

[Rocco R16V]

thats mine, want to donate $ for dyno time?

[REPOMAN]

Thats a pretty clean looking setup. nicely done.
Can you answer a few questions?
What Engine magament?
What size Injectors?
How many RPMs
Which Rotrex chargeris that?
and
How much boost are you getting?

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by Rocco R16V »

thats mine, want to donate $ for dyno time?

You don't spend $6,000+ on an engine, and then not have a couple hundred left to actually tune it on a dyno.

[Rocco R16V]

Thanks repoman
that is a test fit and sort plumbing pic its not finished.
Its an ABA 16V 9:1 comp

034EFI IC
42 LBS
8000 RPM
C30-94
I havent run it yet
Im waiting on a trans and time to work on it, working out of state makes it hard to find time.
when its done and ive had some time to tune it, the car will go on the dyno.

[Rocco R16V]

Quote, originally posted by L8 APEKS »

You don't spend $6,000+ on an engine, and then not have a couple hundred left to actually tune it on a dyno.

Well I do have a budget so after spending so much money on the charger there’s no more left for the car (this year). Plus any time on the dyno is time I have to take off work which makes it more than a couple hundred.

I was just saying if you want answers now, put up some cash.

I really didn’t choose this form of boost to be the first or a test bed, I just thought it would be perfect for what I want out of my car.

[L8 APEKS]

Quote, originally posted by Rocco R16V »

I was just saying if you want answers now, put up some cash.

We, as the customers, don't have to put up any cash at all. The burden of proof is on the vendor, not on the customer.

I'm saying...if the OP wants our business[/] now, put up some test results on the actual platform you're advertising the part for! THEN advertise them for that platform!

You'll get more interest that way...

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by L8 APEKS »

You'll get more interest that way...

I really am not looking for interest currently.I am actually considering locking this thread as it is a year old and I do not have all the data I would like to release.

[drkreign]

Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed »

I really am not looking for interest currently.I am actually considering locking this thread as it is a year old and I do not have all the data I would like to release.

My corrado jus leaked oil on the ground, now either it jus took a pee, or it's crying. and given it didn't do that til you left that message I'm gunna say it's the latter. Do you reeeeeeeally wanna break the ol' girls heart? < to you sir if you do.