In my application I'm not using pins 1,2,4,11, works great. Also, I checked my Bentley and on the 16v Sciroccos pin 1,4,11 are not connected. BTW, 81's had ECU's?? must be an American thing, none of the Canadian ones did.
#1
Here is my latest schematic, it corrects some typos I made last time:
btw- Your wiring's colors wil no doubt be way different based on country of assembly, year, model, etc.(Don't fry anything, this is provided purely as informational, I don't warranty you screwing it up.)
btw- I am using the Distributor from the RD, vacum advance line from old Dist moves to K/S box.
RE: Later in the thread MrDave mentions some Diags from the Bentley- That would be Pin #4 on the K/S controler. tb
(edited 27Aug09 to fix link, better version to follow...)
Anybody want to channel Dr. Frankenstein with me?
'tanks,
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 12:14 PM 7-10-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:17 PM 7-10-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:04 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:07 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 08:44 PM 7-28-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 03:16 PM 8-09-2002]Modified by TBerk at 1:22 AM 11-21-2004
Modified by TBerk at 1:25 AM 11-21-2004
27Aug09 AM - Working on fixing linkies...
Modified by TBerk at 12:32 PM 8-27-2009
Modified by TBerk at 5:56 PM 8-27-2009
#2
In my application I'm not using pins 1,2,4,11, works great. Also, I checked my Bentley and on the 16v Sciroccos pin 1,4,11 are not connected. BTW, 81's had ECU's?? must be an American thing, none of the Canadian ones did.
#3
- No 11 huh? Looks like a real good grounding point.
I'll post a pic tommorrow with what I come up with.Thx,
TBerk
#4
quote:Grounding 11 gives you the milder 85 map versus the more aggressive 86+ map.- No 11 huh? Looks like a real good grounding point.
I'll post a pic tommorrow with what I come up with.Thx,
TBerk
#5
VWPat is right, I did a fair bit of research before I installed a K-S system on my car, all VW's from 86 on came from the factory with pin 11 not connected.
#6
OK, I looked over everything and I find:- Harness plug on KS module end has NO 1, 4, nor 11 terminals. These won't be connected at all.
- My CIS had the DIS (Digital Idle Stabalizer inline with the Ignition ECU, now of the three wires from Hall Sensor to ECU, only one wire is used (vs all three). Looks like DIS gets 'obsoleted'.
- OR I place it forward of the KS, but I have never had anyone mention using it. Looks like no DIS, besides the 86 lived without one. (Obsessing partly because this is a California car, going to have to pass smog ref review.)
I'm reworking the color schematic to reflect my current loom, check back this afternoon.
Thx so far,
TBerk
#7
Soooo,Latest report is I find a (50) conveniently located on the starter, powering the solenoid, Considering it's all 12 volts no matter where I get it from and terminal (50)* is what I want to run KS pin #10
*(It's only on during cranking.)
Also Pin #3 on the K/S box is grounded but doesn't run to 11 like some other (stock) looms do, so I'm using it.
Here’s the quick wap up:
KS module pin #5 gets (15) - power when Ign is ON.
KS module pin #2 was hooked to the O2 computer in the former car, I left it free.
KS module pin #3 is grounded
KS module pins #13 & 14 come from the K/S sensor
KS module pin #7 & 9 from the Hall Sender
KS module pin #6 & 8 goes to the full throttle switch,
(the closed switch is unused right now.)
KS module pin #12 goes to the Ign module #5The standard 1981 electronic ignition has a digital idle stabilizer in line with the hall sender & ignition module. In this set up the three signal wires on the Ign Mod are reduce to one running to the KS mod, the hall sender runs all three of it’s wires directly to the KS module. Looks like the DIS is out of the picture. (Maybe if I knew what id did better I’d make use of the closed throttle switch to do something with it.)
I'm still looking for some vinyl tubing to run the loom in, otherwise I'm wrapping it in pipe tape (that’s not the right name but it's 2" wide).
I want to avoid the split loom corrugated stuff as much as possible, and provide for high heat, oil, etc exposure as well.
BTW- As much help as I have gotten from folks’ web pages I think they still lack something. (I sound ungrateful. but quite the opposite is true.)
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 12:03 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:07 AM 7-19-2002]
#8
Bumped for review.TBerk
#9
3 only runs to 11 on the 85 harness.
#10
[my post from the 8v forum]Wow man, thanks *right click, save* I was just about to post about this!!!
To clarify, the electronic ignition module is in the rain tray on driver's side, correct? Where is the throttle valve switch? (full throttle/WOT switch??) And what exactly do you mean by "tie in" with the power? Thanks man... I don't have too much experience with wiring but I'm not afraid either. Scary combination
[/my post from 8v forum]
This is a little weird for me as I have an 84gti and from what I'm seeing, colours aren't exactly the same. Do you (or anyone else) know if it's pretty much the same deal here?
-Sean
#11
AWESOME post guys!! You've all done your homework and great job to that. My friend has a K-S only system with euro 16v cis injection on a 2L bottom w/ a 1.8L 16v head in a '81 pickup that runs low 14's consistantly and is "basically" what you'd call stock... well, NOT really! HA! Just wanted to thank all for the info.
audioteknik
#12
(Thx, btw- It still needs some revision. I'll prob post a page to show the nuts and bolts part of the install.)quote:
[my post from the 8v forum]Wow man, thanks *right click, save* I was just about to post about this!!!
No prob, Bob. That's what we're here for.
quote:
To clarify, the electronic ignition module is in the rain tray on driver's side, correct?Yep, My 1981 Scirocco has the Ign module on the transaxle side of the car, up in the rain tray. I found lots of room on the other side of the car, up in the rain tray. ANd of course the existing O2 sensor box is retained in it's stock location: Under the dash on the passengers side, inside the car. There is a nice stock tray there to accomodate it.
I might just secure the K/S box there to.
quote:
Where is the throttle valve switch? (full throttle/WOT switch??) And what exactly do you mean by "tie in" with the power? Thanks man... I don't have too much experience with wiring but I'm not afraid either. Scary combination"Tie In" means the same as splice, attach to, get power from the same 'circuit track' that other well known items run on- 15 = power when Ign ON, 30 = Power straight from battery (maybe fused but still; always ON), etc.
The WOT switch is used on 84 GTI and up type motors. I got mine from the donor car. Helps to prevent running lean when you have the pedal mashed down. Bonus and easy because the A2 throttle is larger inside diameter so I modified my Intake manifold to fit. In my case it's on top of the throtle itself. There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.
quote:
[/my post from 8v forum]This is a little weird for me as I have an 84gti and from what I'm seeing, colours aren't exactly the same. Do you (or anyone else) know if it's pretty much the same deal here?
-SeanYou'll need a Bentley manual, with it's schematics & the schematics from the donor car. I have found Haynes useful but not as good, better to have both.
Also, some cars came with the next year's wire colors, like Scirocco shows up in the book with the next year's Cabby wire colors. Be adaptable.
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 1:31 AM 7-20-2002]
#13
quote:
(There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.The Throttle closed switch tells the KS control not to look at manifold vacuum while idling. Gives it a nice stable ignition setting for a consistent idle speed.
Not having this switch hooked up means you will have to set the ignition advance with the vacuum line disconnected (so you have the correct advance at WOT), then connect the vacuum line, then reset idle speed down since the ignition will advance quite a bit with the line connected.
I'd recommend using the switch.
Note for Sean: The Bentley for Rabbit/Scirocco up to 84 only applies to the early 84 Sciroccos. So, if you have an 84 1/2 Scirocco (small spare tire) then you need the later Bentley. I have the same problem.
#14
quote:
(There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.The Throttle closed switch tells the KS control not to look at manifold vacuum while idling. Gives it a nice stable ignition setting for a consistent idle speed.
Not having this switch hooked up means you will have to set the ignition advance with the vacuum line disconnected (so you have the correct advance at WOT), then connect the vacuum line, then reset idle speed down since the ignition will advance quite a bit with the line connected.
I'd recommend using the switch.
<snip>
Well, Once again I remove my foot to insert a bite of Crow.The two switches on the A2 throttle body are in place, they are both running through the three conductor plug and both wires run to the K/S module. One is the Blue w/ White, the other is Purple (Violet). The third wire is Yellow w/ Blue and carries 12v from term15.
Thx for the info, I was only thinking it wasn't used because I wasn't using the A2 O2 computer. That's what I get for thinking. Turns out I was confusing the WOT (which in this case has TWO switches - One for Closed & One for Open) with the Idle Speed Actuator, which I am not using (it ties into the A2 Or computer). I'll update the pic again to put the Throttle Closed Switch back in.
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 4:11 PM 7-20-2002]
#15
WooHoo! She runs! I was able to wiggl some wires around the coil and here the 'buzz' in the fuel Dist come On & Off so that helped track down a loose connector; 12v feed to the coil was both loose and plugged into the recently unused and 'corrodested' one.
Tommorrow I reconnect the downpipe and axles (was waiting inc case the motor had to come out again).
Weeeeee!
TBerk
#16
Congrats! What a great feeling!I spent two hours tonight looking at wiring diagrams (Bentley, yours, volkswagen.org's). Hope to start on my wiring harness Wednesday, and be done this week. Not as scary as expected after actually looking at more than just the box of wires and a little black box.
One thing I don't understand is why pin 10 gets connect to 50 (+12V only during starting). The easy answer is because David@Volkswagen.org says so, but I'm hoping for more. Looking for what's actually happening. Is that part of the "load reduction" and turns the KS box off during starting?
Thanks!
[Modified by DriversFound.com, 1:53 AM 7-24-2002]
Never Forget, Never Forgive 09.11.01
http://www.DriversFound.com <<--- Scirocco Scirocco Scirocco
http://www.GAKMotorsports.com <<--- VW Gauge Panels
#17
I think it's because of the load reduction relay; Maybe it provides power during cranking when most everything is off. Conversly it signals extra rich for start up or something. I'm not sure.Check here:
http://home.mindspring.com/~tberk/index.htmlNot the original schematic and where #10 is connected.
The GTI's #10 went to the fuel pump relay. Make that Comes From the FP Relay. Looks like it's a 31 grounding the 15 supplied to the FP Relay to clamp it ON.
Hmmm, perhaps I will leave it off and see what happens.
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 11:39 PM 7-23-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 11:44 PM 7-23-2002]
#18
Ok, now I apologize for the lack of clarity, since my memory is not what it used to be. I did this at least 5-6 years ago.The pin 11 is used to ground somewhere in the fuel circuit, and induces a lower rev limiter (fuel related, i THINK), and has a less agressive ignition map. When you clip the pin, it raises the rev limiter 500RPM or so, and puts more timing in faster. It has to do with somebody at Audi wanting a less agressive map for the 4000s.
That is all that I can remeber for now.
#19
Yeah, we resolved the pin 11 thing, turns out the VW GTI loom from 86 on doesnt even provide a pin on 11.
Qustion of the day is why does David's Volkswagen.Org schematic have pin TEN going to power terminal 50?
TBerk
#20
>>Qustion of the day is why does David's Volkswagen.Org schematic have pin TEN going to power terminal 50?
On the wiring schematics for the 85-89 GLI, pin 10 from the KS goes to circuit #50.
Gotta love having a couple different Bentley's lying around.
After 6 months of procrastinating, I'm hoping to toss the KS ignition into my Jetta this weekend. I blame this thread.-Dave
#21
Well, I was able to time the motor/ distributor (1st use of timing light) and frequency valve (via a dwell meter) (47-52% appox).Idles is still a might high but I'm replacing edited vacuum hoses with proper caps instead f the plugs I had and will tune it further over the next few days.
The wire TEN to power #50 turns out to Not burn anything up so I'm going to finalize it.
I have some pix upcoming as I remove the tape I used as identification tags and wrap the wires with 2" rubber pipe wrap from Home Depot.
I also have some extra large shrink tube I hope to use as a substitute for the vinyl tubing used to route the OEM loom in the 1st place. Not trying to make use of the super fat tube as is normally meant for s.t. but to emulate a nice clean stock look.
I also have some braided sleeve stuff for anti abrasive reasons were one thing must rub on another.
Thx for playing along at home people.
TBerk
Moving from the Theoretical to the Physical & Practical
#22
Woohoo! Pics1. Actual wires may differ than what the wiring diagram says. My 87 GTI KS has wire 4 (light brown/brown (or black) stripe - test connector) while the Bentley doesn't show it.
2. There are TWO brown/yellow wires.
3. Leave 2" of wire when cutting something you don't need - you might decide otherwise later.Here's where the mess began. Every bit of wiring I could pull from a wrecked/no engine 87 GTI:
Never Forget, Never Forgive 09.11.01
http://www.DriversFound.com <<--- Scirocco Scirocco Scirocco
http://www.GAKMotorsports.com <<--- VW Gauge Panels
#23
Love the pic of the harness. Been there, done that...Anywho, got my ignition installed. Spent 2-1/2 testing the wiring and repairing
the harness. Had to shorten the throttle body wiring somewhat. Everything else went in pretty much unaltered.
Spent 3-1/2 putting the gear on the new dizzy, mounting the knock
box and double checking and popping everything in. Thanks the folks at RadioShack for some fancy double spade connectors.For the ignition control unit, popped the wire out for the #6, and popped a new plug in for the knock setup. Left the old ignition wiring otherwise untouched in the car, I'll remove that later. I need the car to run on monday, so if all else failed,
I'd pop the old setup in late on sunday, (or rather, early monday morning) if need be.Double spade connectors for #50 off the starter and for #15 off the coil, had to pop open the knock box connector to cut the wire for pin 11.
Mounted the knock box in the passenger side of the raintray.Started right up. Set the timing, runs good.
But seemingly no appreciable difference than before.
A little dissapointing, actually.I'm thinking tomorrow I'll follow the Bentley to check the knock box error codes.
Lessons:
1. didn't take as long as I'd expected
2. was much easier than I'd feared
3. check your harness, my wiring colors were significantly different than TBerk's picture.
4. It is nearly impossible to make holes in the rain tray, and beyond impossible to make a hole big enough for the wiring to pass thru.
5. the pin holding the gear on the distributor is much much easier to get out if you
drill all the way thru it firstSo thanks to the thread for the motivation, but here are the lingering questions:
Rerouting of the vacuum hose from the old dizzy to the new knock box:
I currently have the hose running from the bypass valve on the front of the intake,
around to a T at the back of the throttle body, where one goes off to the TB, and the other goes off to the knock box.Anyone see a problem with this?
And what should I be running for advance at idle?
I'm currently set at 7degrees, which is bang on spec for the 85+ GTI, according to Bentley. David at volkswagen.org says you can go as high as 12. More is a good thing, right?Thanks to all,
-MrDave
#24
quote:
Love the pic of the harness. Been there, done that...Anywho, got my ignition installed. Spent 2-1/2 testing the wiring and repairing
the harness. Had to shorten the throttle body wiring somewhat. Everything else went in pretty much unaltered.
Spent 3-1/2 putting the gear on the new dizzy, mounting the knock
box and double checking and popping everything in. Thanks the folks at Radio Shack for some fancy double spade connectors.For the ignition control unit, popped the wire out for the #6, and popped a new plug in for the knock setup. Left the old ignition wiring otherwise untouched in the car, I'll remove that later. I need the car to run on Monday, so if all else failed,
I'd pop the old setup in late on sunday, (or rather, early monday morning) if need be.Double spade connectors for #50 off the starter and for #15 off the coil, had to pop open the knock box connector to cut the wire for pin 11.
Mounted the knock box in the passenger side of the raintray.Started right up. Set the timing, runs good.
But seemingly no appreciable difference than before.
A little disappointing, actually.I'm thinking tomorrow I'll follow the Bentley to check the knock box error codes.
If you get codes, post them I don't have the later year Bentley, and only half my original one (the second half).
quote:
Lessons:
1. didn't take as long as I'd expected
2. was much easier than I'd feared
3. check your harness, my wiring colors were significantly different than TBerk's picture.
4. It is nearly impossible to make holes in the rain tray, and beyond impossible to make a hole big enough for the wiring to pass thru.re: #3- Every model, year, country of origin has differing colors.
re: #4- I find I can run all the wires through the existing hole right behind the 'S' pipe. I had to cut the K/S wires free from an extraneous connector anyway, this left me with the only three wire connector that wouldn't have fit free to solder back into the loom after passing it through the hole.
I am going to install a plug/socket of lesser size than the VW stuff in the middle to facilitate future removal/relocations.
Other than that the others fit through the O-ring and the sheet metal it fits into.
This means I didn't use the big ol' honkin rubber plug thingie that was on the donor loom. I slice it down the middle and will slide it back on near the K/S box to suspend the loom in that area (rain tray).
quote:
5. the pin holding the gear on the distributor is much much easier to get out if you
drill all the way thru it firstSo thanks to the thread for the motivation, but here are the lingering questions:
Rerouting of the vacuum hose from the old dizzy to the new knock box:
I currently have the hose running from the bypass valve on the front of the intake,
around to a T at the back of the throttle body, where one goes off to the TB, and the other goes off to the knock box.Anyone see a problem with this?
Well it’s source is most important- vacuum is vacuum. My hybrid Scirocco intake manifold/A2 throttle body has provisions for two vacuum lines so I used one for K/S & the other for the smog control's by-pass valve.
quote:
And what should I be running for advance at idle?
I'm currently set at 7degrees, which is bang on spec for the 85+ GTI, according to Bentley. David at volkswagen.org says you can go as high as 12. More is a good thing, right?Thanks to all,
-MrDave
More is better. My timing light has a knob on the back, but here I thought it was an adjustment for degree- it's turned out to be a sensitivity adjustment.
Turning it counterclockwise will advance the timing. Mine is set to 6 degrees right now.
Only after the car is hot and you are mashing the pedal and it DOESN'T knock will you notice the improvement.
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 8:35 PM 7-28-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 8:38 PM 7-28-2002]
#25
The gospel of the Knock Sensor, according to Bentley:--------
connect an LED test light between the test connection and the battery (+) terminal.
When the ignition is turned on, the LED should light, indicating that the control unit
is responding. If it doesn't, check connections and check continuety of the
wire from the test connector to pin 4 of the knock sensor control unit connector.
If there is continuety, the KS control unit may be faulty.Start the engine and briefly raise the engine speed to at least 3000 rpm. If the LED
test light goes out, there is no fault information stored, and the system is operating correctly.
If it does not go out, or if it goes out and comes back on, there is a fault in the system.
Leave the engine idling and the LED test light connected, and connect a jumper wire from the test connector to ground. Hold the connection for at least 3 seconds.The test light should flash in coded intervals:
If the light does not flash, the control unit is faulty and should be replaced.
Two flashes per interval indicates a fault in either the circuit wiring, the KS, or the KS control unit.Three flashes per interval indicates a problem with the vacuum connection to
the KS control unit. Check the vacuum hose for breaks and replace if necessary.
If there are no breaks, the control unit is faulty and should be replaced.
---------Mine checked out fine, no error codes.
And contrary to my previous post, I've noticed a bit more low-end grunt,
and my MFA is showing a significant improvement in mileage, though that
may be due to my vacuum routing for the sensor.
On a similar vane, going thru the newsgroups archives from google,
folks used to talk about putting a switch on the pin 11 wire to be able
to alternate between the maps for running high and low octane fuels.
Anyone have success in this?
If anyone is interested, this be my baby:
http://members.tripod.com/~Jetta_GLi/mods.html
(though the page is way out of date)
-Dave
[Modified by MrDave, 3:35 AM 7-30-2002]
#26
ttt
#27
Ok... my update... The pile of wires turned into something useful. I am getting some mild knock with the hot weather when the engine is all warmed up. Seems to only happen when I smash the throttle at lower rpms - but it stops very quickly as rpms increase. Plans are to look at the plugs (using bosch platnums... copper? colder? warmer?) and check/adjust the fuel mixture. Maybe going lean? Ideas very welcome!!Right now, I'm simply enjoying the new found power!
Here are full details on the knock sensor install:
http://www.driversfound.com/scirocco/techtips/engine/knocksensor/
[Modified by DriversFound.com, 12:01 AM 12-30-2002]
Never Forget, Never Forgive 09.11.01
http://www.DriversFound.com <<--- Scirocco Scirocco Scirocco
http://www.GAKMotorsports.com <<--- VW Gauge Panels
#28
quote:
Ok... my update... The pile of wires turned into something useful. I am getting some mild knock with the hot weather when the engine is all warmed up. Seems to only happen when I smash the throttle at lower rpms - but it stops very quickly as rpms increase. Plans are to look at the plugs (using bosch platinums... copper? colder? warmer?) and check/adjust the fuel mixture. Maybe going lean? Ideas very welcome!!
Right now, I'm simply enjoying the newfound power!
The page needs finished, but here is my info on the knock sensor install:
http://knocksensor.driversfound.com
BTW, TBerk, get your info written up before you forget!
Damn youuuuuuu! I won't, I won't and you cant make me!, so there!
Your page is too well built to have me recreate the wheel, kudos.Update from my part of the world.
Pulled the hybrid loom to:
A. Add some heat shrink tubing & anti-abrasion mesh. Will post finished pix, maybe this weekend.
B. Bolt coil back on firewall, I had been test driving around town with the thing sitting on the plastic air intake tube.
C. Do an idiot check for loose bolts and stray wires.
I don't like the Platinum plugs, they seem intended for people who don't maintain their cars. Copper or Silbers for me. http://www.parts4vws.comI was at Harbor Freight Tools Thursday, picked up an adjustable Timing light for $20. Gonna use it to dial in a little advance and push the envelope a bit.
Saw some liquid insulator in a can I really liked, but didn't get. Paint on the crimp connectors and forget about it.
Btw- RE: the timing light codes- this isn’t just a 16v type thing is it? I’m thinking of installing an LED in the cockpit connected to it to see if the K/S is working or not under different conditions. Better than the Upshift Light by far. Thx MrDave.
TBerk
(It was 100 degrees here Thursday) (And agan Friday)
PSs - The GF lets me drive the WRX tomorrow. Good to have one of those. The GF I mean.
[Modified by TBerk, 3:17 PM 8-9-2002]
#29
guys, this is amazing. Electronics baffle me. You guys have my respect.Now I have a question for you...this is for a 1986 golf (non GTI) 1.8l 8v. Ok, I am putting a turbo on it. I have all the parts. I have been running stoich on my a/f gauge. Anyways, I would like to run more on the rich side. If I clip #11, what will happen? Will I run more rich? Or will the advanced timing hurt my engine with the boost?
thanks a bunch
#30
do you have any diograms for a corrado g-60
fo the fuse panel?
#31
ttt because it needs to be in an actually running car.Fresh pix soon.
TBerk
#32
search function
its a wonderful thing
#33
Word, this threads the shiz.
#34
Here we are years later and this thread is still inspiring others to finally do this upgrade. I did it this past weekend with the help of TBerk's wiring diagram... it was perfect! Thanks TBerk!No more knock when I get into the pedal... Noticable power difference... Took care of a hard start problem when hot... all in all seem like a solid solution to my weak 1981 ignition system and I'm not even maxed out in advance yet.
Notes: I haven't installed the throttle switches yet so I bypassed the closed throttle switch to set the initial timing instead of taking the vacuum off the knock box. Much easier than I anticipated
Thanks again to TBerk, Driversfound.com and everyone else who did my homework for me.
#35
Anyone have any pics of their setup? Im about to do this on An 8V/ABA setup and have no clue where I should mount the sensor or the Knock Box ECU.Thanks
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