Anyone Break a Hub/axle at a Track Event?? - I just lost one

[enginerd]

The threads stripped off on the axle down low near the base, and there were threads left on the outer part of the axle - this kept the wheel from coming off. it was very hard to get the nut off as the threads were mangled and it didn't want to thread off. The rest of the threads stripped off in the process.

Car is back together - I did a shake down autocross with the car everything stayed tight. I went back at it with the breaker bar and the 4 foot pipe and it's tight as hell on both sides. I have lot's of axle nuts so I always use a new nut - they come with the boot kits/bearing kits etc i have a bunch of them.
Watkins glen in 2 weeks.... let's see if it can live for 3 hours on the track



Modified by enginerd at 7:53 AM 6-2-2009

[GTIbyJB]

I've done the exact same thing on my MKIV...twice, both times the hubs looked exactly like th ones in the pictures, also went through 3 front axels before I got my Raxels!

I've repleaced that front bearing about 9 times in 2 years, things just don't like to stay together with me!

[DDG]

Quote, originally posted by Monster8V »

In all the years of track days/racing ive never had a hub failure. I was pretty good about changing them out every season for fear of failures. I did have a rear wheel bearing/spindle failure that was my fault. I thought I heard a front bearing starting to go bad. Little did I know it was the rear, failed, broke the spindle in a bad spot on the track and I destroyed the car and ended up in the hospital. Now im pretty much in tune with replacing front hubs/bearings and rear spindles and bearings. No more freak accidents for me thanks.

I know you won't run on bad bearings anymore, right big fella????
I need to replace both front and rear bearings and front hubs before I go out again, you's guys got me all paranoid!

[enginerd]

Well I made it through 3 hours at the glen without major issues.

I kept an eye on the drivers side axle nut, and after every session it was backing off one tooth (12 point nut) So I kept on torquing it again and again. Im guessing ~ 400 ft-lbs and it would not hold. A white line on the nut and axle showed it backing off.

Monday night I remove the nut, cleaned with brake clean to remove all anti seize. I reapplied with red loc-tite and no lube - NEW nut still a nyloc insert - again ~400 ft-lbs. It moved after the second session. Then I torqued when it was hot (burn your hands on wheel hot) and it held for 2 sessions. I am looking now for a large flanged nut with a metal locking feature instead of the nylon insert. All the nuts I have look like nylock, some looked metal but they were just cad plated over plastic.

The pass side - uses a big Allen bolt instead of a nut (OEM audi 6 speed axle) This did not move after ~350 ft-lb torque applied. (inside wheel though at the glen). I am still wondering what to do about the damn axle nut though. Do I go to a bolt instead, and have raxles swap the drivers side back to a bolt style instead of a nut. I can't remember if the OEM used a nylock or metal only. Maybe mcmaster carr has some big flanged metal locking nuts. Or some huge nord-loc's.

I ground down the spindles to make more CV boot clearance - no signs of rubbing on the raxles (more clearance anyways) and the pass side had no signs of rubbing either. Drove the car 960 miles round trip including track time. I had a dolley and a rescue vehicle if needed, but no need.

Toasted a fresh set of hawk blues, 20 gal of 100 oct- corded my V710- 245's had an awesome weekend with the BMW club. I pretty much murdered the experienced/advanced run group with no one passing me during my hot laps. Next time Ill try and run with the open track/instructor groups.

I have about 20 min of vid with some m3 whooping, ill try to get that on youtube

[reflexgti]

The factory nut is all metal that is very slightly oval rather than round to apply a locking effect. You should try hitting up the dealership to find a solution.

Steve

[neVes]

just curious, has anyone ever tried to "heat treat" the hubs before use? On my 1st gen RX7, a car thats notorious for cracking rotors, I would put my new rotors in my oven, put it on self clean for 4hrs and then run them. Ran 1 set for over a year with no signs of cracking or imminent failure. Think the same process would help with the hubs and failing?

[1320-20V]

Hi enginerd!

It's John from the Grid! and lime rock, and last year, and oh well you know!

I'm just flagging this discussion to follow it. I think I'm going to run some numbers on the hubs too.

I would also like to mention I am about to be on my THIRD wheel bearing on my drivers side.

[osbornsm]

Totally happened to me already... they're just not made for the track!!!

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3845309

[cfvwtuner]

Happened to us in the Golf Focus at pocono a few years back.
The piece of crap multipiece stock axle nut came apart and loosened.
The face of the hub broke from the the part pressed into the wheel bearing.
The rotor and caliper kept the wheel on. I never even knew. I thought I had overheated the brakes because I was getting a soft pedal. The car made no other noises or vibrations or anything.
Came in, jacked up the corner and the wheel was flopping around.
Luckily with the trailer, we just put it back on, and towed home.
I replaced all the axle nuts with single piece units from Subaru.
They were the same threads and have a spot where you can peen them into the axle

[1stgen]

Justin, just spent three days at bogie without a single problem. All new parts on driver side. Tightened the axles after the first run group while they were still hot, never came loose after that. Had at least 4-5 plus hours on track between three days. You got to get up there....it's awesome pavement, I ate 4 hoosier cups.

[enginerd]

too far without a tow rig of my own - the tow dolley and the borrowed truck just won't cut it.

glad to hear you didn't have any problems.

I found some all metal lock nuts - the OEM ones have plastic inserts. I think that's my issue. Runnign LRP on the 10th so ill see if can go without breaking another one.

http://www.scautoonline.com/pr...t.htm

[1320-20V]

I would go with a heavy hex nut and a nord-lock.

[enginerd]

I just went to swap to an all metal nut. The threads were damaged on the way off so now another junk axle. The all metal nuts have about 4 more threads than the oem's so they shoudl hold more torque next time.

Nordlock is an issue because of the big flange on the nuts. That and I don't see an M20 at mcmaster need an M20 ID to keep it on center, but a 40mm OD for the flange - I don't think they make wide flanged nordlocks.

[1320-20V]

Would this one fit? I think it would.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#91074a137/=2xhyc8

[aircooled56]

Carnage from my track day at Big Willow Springs a few years back...My hub/axle was ok, it was the upright that failed after a hard tire drop off some curbing.

[enginerd]

you have to be careful with the nordlocks you need the ID of the washer to be held on the OD of the bolt. The ID on that one is too big. When you go to tighten them the washers can jump on you and move all off center.

Maybe a large nordlock and pilot it inside the diameter of the hub flange.

that is a pretty nasty failure above - was it fatigue, or did you just break it off on impact.

Modified by enginerd at 4:59 PM 7-27-2009

[1320-20V]

they have a concentric ring machined inside, but I do understand your concern. I would want mine perfectly concentric as well.

[aircooled56]

The failure above was from impact.

[enginerd]

well I got the car back together.
Use all metal locknuts from the site I listed above.

They spun on nice and easy and when the locking feature hit they got real hard to put on ~ 100+ ft-lbs of locking feature I would guess. Way better than the plastic ones I could spin on with a ratchet.

Going to limerock on monday, so ill see if the car makes it, or if it makes it into the classifieds.

Just thought I should point out. Marty at raxles has been great to deal with about all of these problems. He has been replacing the outer joints and shipping back within a week so I have had very little downtime and have not missed any events. I would definitely recommend him for replacement joints and aftermarket axles.

Modified by enginerd at 8:29 AM 8-6-2009

[enginerd]

Well the nut didn't come loose. This time the shaft broke
I think my other failures may have overstressed the shaft.

Got some video though - running on my old worn stock 6 speed axle for a while. It started to howl at the end of session 4, parked it on the trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-eG7xtlIzo

I am going to have the OEM 6 Speed rebuilt with a new outer joint and run that for a while.

[IJM]

Bumping this thread since I had a very similar failure this weeked. Luckily it didn't happen while I was on the track at Summit Point, but it failed on the drive home. I was taking off from a stop, then went full throttle in 1st. About 4,000 RPM I heard a loud BANG, then I lost all connection from the engine to the wheels. I managed to push the car off the road, but the front wheel finally locked up from the rotor hitting the carrier. It appears that the hub sheared off at the splined part, then the torque through the axle must have been concentrated on the threaded end of the axle, which then failed.

Incidentally, these hubs were installed last fall and only have 4 track days on them. They came preassembled as a unit along with bearings and the sport spindles from H2Sport. I see I'm not the only one on here who's had problems with the H2Sport hubs. Perhaps my axle nut wasn't tight, though I checked the torque several times last fall before and after my trip to VIR.

Here are some pictures. You can see the failure point of both the hub and the end of the axle.

[CorradoSLC]

IJM - Was out to spectate for a bit at Summit this weekend. Glad it didn't happen on the track.

I'm in the process of planning my first track day with my '03 GLI - mostly stock (mild suspension mods), ~85k, most of that mileage put on by my wife. Is proactive replacement of the hubs something that should be done first, or after a couple of events?

Was already trying to work through a list of prep items and was not looking to add anything else - though this is obviously concerning. Also know that the car won't be seeing nearly the stresses as some of the more experienced drivers in this thread.

[IJM]

FWIW, I ran the original factory hubs and bearings for probably close to 35 days with zero problems. The bearings finally started getting noisy during the off-season, so I replaced them last year.

[enginerd]

wow, old thread back from the dead. After this thread i had a second hub failure attributed to aftermarket - Chinese junk material. fake "German" hubs. if they don't have a laser marking etched on them they could be counterfeit. hubs a re expensive - if you find a "deal" then pass on it as they cut corners on heat treatment and quality control.

I am still running my GTI at track event's. Got down to 1:01's at limerock. Not too many people passing me there anymore. Hub issue was resolved with using OEM 6 speed axles and the large Allen bolts instead of nuts. If I have them on/off for any reason after the first session / heat cycle - I re-torque them hot and they never move again. Always buy OEM/ german hubs. If they come in a brown box without a laser etched logo - throw them away. After 10 track days - throw them away.

If you need to go with nuts, you can buy a mitsubishi nut that is deformed metal instead of nylon locknut. google the thread size and you can find these. These also hold torque and have lots of threads for load capacity. these work well, but the 6 speeds with the large Allen bolt are very strong and reliable.

I found that my H2 spindles were too tight of clearance on the CV joint boot - some grinding and i made clearance here. I also got boots installed by raxles - they are not oem and they have never failed. so i haven't' had a boot failure in many events after fixing this issue.


same goes for the rear bearings - a deal is to be avoided - stay OEM or a reputable german bearing manufacturer - ***, INA, or timken.


And BTW the advise on super torque was correct - I was torquing these things with 170 lbs and a 5 foot long jack handle. they need to be mega tight - i did blow up my craftsman 1/2" drive breaker bar after a few years of this - but they they give you another one for free lol...

[CorradoSLC]

Interesting. My GLI has the 6spd O2M stock, so it sounds like that may be a good omen. I'll be sure to stick with OEM for any bearing/hub replacements.

[ITB45]

If you guys check your axle nut after every session like you do with wheel nuts chances are you would catch it before it happens.

I tighten mine by standing on it with a breaker bar. If I check it and the nut tightens every so little, it gets changed.

[IJM]

Good point. I think I'll have to do this regularly between sessions like I do with lug torque.

[mgyip]

Bob, Brian's Dad, lost a front hub last year (I think) - OE hubs but the same kind of failure. Glad it didn't happen on-track - I've lost hubs on-track before and it tends to create diamonds in the seat.

I was at the track as well although I was one of those idiots creating dust signals across from T10. I did this last year - all 4 studs failed on my "new" Celica. In retrospect, the bolts came loose and after the jump, they failed...



enginerd - don't be cracking on us Chinese, we're ripping off as much Western technology as possible Besides, if it weren't for the Chinese, you wouldn't be able to poke fun at the "quality" tools from Harbour Freight...

It's certainly good practice to check the axle nut torque along with wheel lugs - I like the idea of "Torque'em hot" - makes good sense although I'm sure the "hardware purists" are doing backflips because of the stress on the threads.

[2 doors]

Hub issue was resolved with using OEM 6 speed axles and the large Allen bolts instead of nuts. If I have them on/off for any reason after the first session / heat cycle - I re-torque them hot and they never move again. Always buy OEM/ german hubs. If they come in a brown box without a laser etched logo - throw them away. After 10 track days - throw them away.

And BTW the advise on super torque was correct - I was torquing these things with 170 lbs and a 5 foot long jack handle. they need to be mega tight - i did blow up my craftsman 1/2" drive breaker bar after a few years of this - but they they give you another one for free lol...

I'm trying to understand your 6speed axle comment: Do those axles have an internal thread and a large flanged screw to secure the axle in the hub? I'm having a hard time picturing where this Allen bolt is. Also, do you have a 6 speed trans or are you using 6 speed axles on a 5 spd car?


I got a wake up call in this three weeks ago when I went to switch to my street tires after a day at the track. The Pass side brake rotor was wobbling. I torqued the nut and drove it 100 miles home (all the while nervous about every little noise or vibration). I guess it's time to stop by Impex for some new parts.

[mgyip]

My understanding (limited as it can be) is that the Mk4 and later cars were equipped with a torx-head bolt that secured the axle to the knuckle with the bolt threading into the splined portion of the axle and playing the role of washer and axle nut at the same time.

[IJM]

My understanding (limited as it can be) is that the Mk4 and later cars were equipped with a torx-head bolt that secured the axle to the knuckle with the bolt threading into the splined portion of the axle and playing the role of washer and axle nut at the same time.

On MK4 cars I think the 5-speed transmission uses the 30mm 12pt. nut, while the 6-speed cars use the bolt. Supposedly the latter holds better, but I don't have direct experience.

Matt, that dust getting kicked up behind the trees at T10 kept messing with my head every time I came over the hill towards the bridge. I kept thinking someone had gone off.

[mgyip]

Immediately before we started the afternoon session, BSR liberally watered the track to reduce the dust. My times dropped by 10 seconds or so because the surface went from talcum power to slime...

Had I known you were at the event, I'd have mooned you from T10 although you may have been blinded by the flash...

[IJM]

Good thing I was wearing my tinted visor...

I just pulled the hub face off the rotor. The hubs I got from H2Sport are made by Opitmal and are stamped "Germany." Is it safe to assume these are normally good hubs?

[2 doors]

Just be glad all you had to deal with was dust. At the PDX, the crew doing EV training decided to set a car on FIRE on the access road outside of 10 right before one of our sessions. Of course the wind was blowing the smoke right over the track, so we sat at pit out for 10 minutes prior to the start of a session waiting for the smoke to clear.

Anyway, Impex lists two hubs types: OEM for ~$200 and aftermarket for $70. I doubt I paid for the expensive ones last time, so I guess I'll be doing it again.

[mgyip]

I remember seeing/smelling the smoke from the fire - I'm upset that they forever schedule that "school" during a PDX event. I really want to do the Crash & Burn school - I even have some cars I'd like to donate for the burning part of the event...