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    Thread: Direct injection causes intake valve buildup?

    1. Member greatfox's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:25 PM #1

      It seems as though more and more cases are popping up where direct injected engines are experiencing miss-fires, rough running, and reduced power output due to extreme levels of carbon buildup on the intake valves. Audi's 4.2 FSI V8 and 5.2 FSI V10, VW's 2.0T, and Porsche's 4.8 DFI V8 are known victims so far...

      Presumably, this is because normal port-injected engines have the added benefit of washing away any deposits that may form with the fuel spray. Unfortunately direct injected engines have no way of clearing off deposits and thus need to go in periodically to have the valves cleaned.

      Is this a design flaw with direct injection or is there a solution on the horizon? Has anyone had first-hand experience with this phenomenon?

      Links for reference:

      Audi RS4:

      http://forums.audiworld.com/sh...build

      Porsche Cayenne Turbo:

      http://www.planetporsche.net/c....html


      Modified by greatfox at 12:26 PM 5-19-2009

      Quote Originally Posted by iamnotemo View Post
      ...I am jealous of your shift knob. That is a shape I love.
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    2. Moderator Mike0105's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:27 PM #2
      At every oil change I have Terry Dyson do an oil analysis on my car since the direct injected motors seem to destroy most oils pretty quickly. He just warned me about this as well so once I get the analysis I just sent him back we'll chat and see what his thoughts are what we can do to prevent it.
      Mike

    3. Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:30 PM #3
      So the 2.0T can lose...
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      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

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      05-19-2009 04:32 PM #4
      Seafoam that bitch.
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      @SSLByron, @leftlanenews

    5. 05-19-2009 04:34 PM #5
      our solution to this comes back to good ol' seafoam. Inject into the intake and voila. I've heard 2 or 3 treatments should completely clear the valves off.

    6. Member greatfox's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:35 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by PassSedanGLX »
      Seafoam that bitch.

      Would you really want all that crap entering your engine and potentially clogging your catalytic converter? I'd have a hard time using seafoam on a 2008 RS4 with less than 6k miles on the clock


      Modified by greatfox at 12:37 PM 5-19-2009

      Quote Originally Posted by iamnotemo View Post
      ...I am jealous of your shift knob. That is a shape I love.
      Quote Originally Posted by elementpb View Post
      your mom sounds like my kind of lady. is she single and/or discrete?

    7. Member eweu's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:37 PM #7
      Volkswagen has a patent that discusses this buildup problem as an inherent flaw with direct injected engines. The patent claims several solutions to the problem, but it isn't evident to me that they have actually implemented any of these solutions on the current FSI engines.

      The patent is worth a read.


    8. 05-19-2009 04:41 PM #8
      is this a VW group only prob or all DI'S (GM, Ford etc) in general?

    9. Banned SVTDanny's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:43 PM #9
      Quote, originally posted by AS50 »
      is this a VW group only prob or all DI'S (GM, Ford etc) in general?

      Should be all, they all work the same way. Fuel gets injected in the cylinder instead of in the runner.

      Seafoam or a catch can on all cars would be the easiest way to prevent this.


    10. Member Tucci's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:43 PM #10
      My 06 GTI had this problem on a much higher scale. I brought it in for constant miss codes. They had to scrape the carbon build up off the ports and clean the valves. Almost 1/4 in thick, it looked like an old TDI head and the car only had 40k on it.

    11. Member greatfox's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:44 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by eweu »
      Volkswagen has a patent that discusses this buildup problem as an inherent flaw with direct injected engines. The patent claims several solutions to the problem, but it isn't evident to me that they have actually implemented any of these solutions on the current FSI engines.

      The patent is worth a read.

      Interesting. Thanks for posting that link. It seems that by simply coating the intake valves with a Vanadium catalyst, the deposits can oxidize more readily and buildup may be reduced/eliminated. I wonder when they will realize that this is a serious problem and incorporate this coating in the next iteration of their 2.0 TSI engine.

      Quote Originally Posted by iamnotemo View Post
      ...I am jealous of your shift knob. That is a shape I love.
      Quote Originally Posted by elementpb View Post
      your mom sounds like my kind of lady. is she single and/or discrete?

    12. Banned iPinch's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:49 PM #12
      I put 60K miles on my 2.0T and didnt have an issue of this nature

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      05-19-2009 04:50 PM #13
      Looks like nothing a good ol' "Italian tune up" couldn't fix.

      In fact revving the snot out of the motor regularly could actually help things.


    14. Member Slickvic's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:53 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by greatfox »

      Presumably, this is because normal port-injected engines have the added benefit of washing away any deposits that may form with the fuel spray. Unfortunately direct injected engines have no way of clearing off deposits and thus need to go in periodically to have the valves cleaned.

      Is this a design flaw with direct injection or is there a solution on the horizon? Has anyone had first-hand experience with this phenomenon?

      Word in the 2.0 FSI forum is that the root cause is from the PCV valve sucking oil into the engine and collecting on hot intake valves. A PCV valve is supposed to just collect crankcase fumes but in the case of the FSI engines they suck in a bit of oil as well.

      That other non-douche Mustang owner.

    15. Member WhiteG60's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 04:57 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by Slickvic »

      Word in the 2.0 FSI forum is that the root cause is from the PCV valve sucking oil into the engine and collecting on hot intake valves. A PCV valve is supposed to just collect crankcase fumes but in the case of the FSI engines they suck in a bit of oil as well.

      This has been happening for years on VW's, especially the 1.8T. The PCV would vent into the intake tract and get burned, but in the process would coat everything in oil. i can imagine if there isn't enough cooling on the back of the intake valve that the fuel provides, it would simply burn and leave the build up there. Maybe its time to rethink plumbing the PCV into the exhaust manifold and letting it be burned there? If theres no oil on the intake side of the motor, then there can't be any build up.


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      05-19-2009 05:00 PM #16
      I had a lot of misfires on my Jetta NevarLose Edition, but have never had it in my Audi NevarLose Edition. I've been running synthetic from day one in this car, though.
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    17. Member the flying grape!'s Avatar
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      05-19-2009 05:00 PM #17
      Uhh, crankcase fumes have a quite a bit of oil in them anyway. It doesn't matter if actual liquid gets sucked into the intake, the fumes are going to coat the valves without liquid.
      Powered by the inline 6.

    18. 05-19-2009 05:09 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by chucchinchilla »
      So the 2.0T can lose...

      As younger brothers always do.


    19. 05-19-2009 05:09 PM #19
      Quote, originally posted by Dextrobrick »
      In fact revving the snot out of the motor regularly will always help things.

    20. 05-19-2009 05:15 PM #20
      Hmmm, no driveability, fuel economy, or power issues with my car. I also stick to the 16,000 km oil change interval recommended in the manual. The only thing I have noticed on my car is soot on the exhaust tips, and this seems to be common to all DI engines.
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    21. Member kptaylor's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 05:18 PM #21
      The BMW DI motors are experiencing this, too.

    22. Member mraguilar's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 05:22 PM #22
      I was expecting this

      when saw the thread title


    23. Member greatfox's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 06:53 PM #23
      Quote, originally posted by Dextrobrick »
      Looks like nothing a good ol' "Italian tune up" couldn't fix.

      In fact revving the snot out of the motor regularly could actually help things.

      It sounds like the OP on the audi forum link I posted drives his car hard, so I'm not sure that is the solution

      Quote, originally posted by Audi World Post »
      ...I posted a couple of months ago about recurring misfires on a 2008 RS4. Only 9500 kms on it after 1 year of ownership. Not a daily driver and certainly not babied when i get it out on the highway....

      here is an article confirming that it is a problem with DI engines in general an not just a VAG problem:

      http://blogs.edmunds.com/green...60233

      Quote Originally Posted by iamnotemo View Post
      ...I am jealous of your shift knob. That is a shape I love.
      Quote Originally Posted by elementpb View Post
      your mom sounds like my kind of lady. is she single and/or discrete?

    24. Member Bull0080's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:00 PM #24
      Use TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline every few tanks. At least that is what my Audi dealer told me, he actually said i would rather see you using a LESS octane top Tier fuel than a higher non Top Tier octane. They even game me a flyer explaining why and what stations pump Top Tier fuel

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      05-19-2009 07:01 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by Dextrobrick »
      Looks like nothing a good ol' "Italian tune up" couldn't fix.

      In fact revving the snot out of the motor regularly could actually help things.


      I always make sure if I am doing a full heat cycle to do a good ol eyethai tune up and at 36k the car is running better than it did at 10k.


    26. Member abawp's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:06 PM #26
      Quote, originally posted by Bull0080 »
      Use TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline every few tanks. At least that is what my Audi dealer told me, he actually said i would rather see you using a LESS octane top Tier fuel than a higher non Top Tier octane. They even game me a flyer explaining why and what stations pump Top Tier fuel

      Care to explain this with regards to a direct injection motor? The logic doesn't seem to be there from the dealership

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      05-19-2009 07:13 PM #27
      So the consensus is that stuff from the EGR and PCV is gunking up on the valves?

      Where do these dump in on the DI engines? Is the intake manifold/runners getting gunked up, too?

      Ooh, I'd be pissed if I dropped megabucks on an RS4. My cars get frequent Italian tuneups and are always shiny and clean inside.

      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio • Come make some hard cider

    28. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:13 PM #28
      All the gas is the same -- only the detergents (slightly) differ...
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    29. Member greatfox's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:16 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by Bull0080 »
      Use TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline every few tanks. At least that is what my Audi dealer told me, he actually said i would rather see you using a LESS octane top Tier fuel than a higher non Top Tier octane. They even game me a flyer explaining why and what stations pump Top Tier fuel

      DI engines inject fuel into the cylinder, not into the intake port, so the intake valve buildup would be unaffected by gasoline grade. That said, I wouldn't suggest buying 87 octane at ARCO

      Quote Originally Posted by iamnotemo View Post
      ...I am jealous of your shift knob. That is a shape I love.
      Quote Originally Posted by elementpb View Post
      your mom sounds like my kind of lady. is she single and/or discrete?

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      05-19-2009 07:19 PM #30
      We just got the new Jag 5.0 L V8 with direct injections. We'll see how it plays out, usually jag is on top of stuff like this.

    31. Member PhReE's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:22 PM #31
      The problem is emissions. You have to re-route the crank case vent to the intake to pass emissions, and that is exactly what causes the problem.
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      05-19-2009 07:31 PM #32
      time for this

      Quote Originally Posted by PowerDubs View Post
      You can't see your engine bay while you drive, and popping your hood in a parking lot to show off parts is as stupid as listing them in your signature.. (not what the parts were intended for).
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    33. Member greatfox's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:38 PM #33
      Quote, originally posted by shinnersvr6 »
      time for this

      do I have to quote myself?

      Quote, originally posted by greatfox »
      DI engines inject fuel into the cylinder, not into the intake port, so the intake valve buildup would be unaffected by gasoline grade. That said, I wouldn't suggest buying 87 octane at ARCO

      and yes that goes for the gimicky "Nitrogen Enriched" Shell gas

      Quote Originally Posted by iamnotemo View Post
      ...I am jealous of your shift knob. That is a shape I love.
      Quote Originally Posted by elementpb View Post
      your mom sounds like my kind of lady. is she single and/or discrete?

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      05-19-2009 07:43 PM #34
      Quote, originally posted by PhReE »
      The problem is emissions. You have to re-route the crank case vent to the intake to pass emissions, and that is exactly what causes the problem.

      Isn't the emissions reason to keep fumes from escaping into the atmosphere? I don't think it would affect emissions negatively if the fumes were routed into the exhaust and an air pump were supplemented to help burn off the fumes.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lwize View Post
      What, none of you watch reruns on TV?
      Quote Originally Posted by NPH View Post
      I don't know about you but, I get angry and shout "IB4TL" when one comes on.

    35. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      05-19-2009 07:46 PM #35
      Um guys...

      Cam overlap EGR means combution deposits (and unburned fuel) still end up on the valves. Gasoline does matter.


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