Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: rebuilding 01m, stuck on 1st/3rd assembly

    1. 06-14-2009 01:58 PM #1
      I am attempting an 01M rebuild. So far it seems very straight forward, at least until I got to the 1st/3rd clutch assembly.

      The 1st level of dissassembly where the large spring was housed came apart easily, however the remainder of the assembly seems pressed together. There was a large retainer ringer between the clutch housings that came off easily, however nothing else seems to come apart. There is another set of clutches to get at within this assembly, how do I get it apart? With in this assembly is another set of clutches, a piston and seal that I need to replace. It is the only clutch assembly that I can not gain access to. Is the right end of this pressed on?

      Thanks, Robert


      Modified by roberthil5 at 9:56 AM 6-15-2009


      Modified by roberthil5 at 9:59 AM 6-15-2009


    2. Banned j_m_o_a's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 30th, 2009
      Posts
      1,974
      06-16-2009 09:24 AM #2
      google this volkswagen technical site in romania. they have am internal rebuilding shop manual for the vw techs

    3. 06-23-2009 11:55 AM #3
      I have looked at that and other diagrams and manuals. If they say anything it is "disassemble" That is like opening up the repair manual and seeing 2 words…”fix it”.

      I am almost to the point of using a cutting torch! I hate to press it in case it is not press off. I have taken it to the dealership, they do not open transmissions, only replace the whole unit.

      At this point, I think I will try pressing it, no body knows anything else about it. It was not met to be pressed off, then I will just have to find another trans and start over.


    4. 06-23-2009 09:00 PM #4
      It looks like a ball bearing. If it is then it is probably held in by a spring as well that holds all that together.

      My guess is just press it in and then slide off the gear.


    5. 06-29-2009 12:24 AM #5
      Robert, it looks like that clutch pack got cooked pretty good due to the discoloration in your pictures. Reason I'm pointing that out, how was the rest of the clutches, where any of them burned and did you have a hard time removing/pressing them off? They should just slide apart with a little pull, there is just a O-ring(rubber seal) between the shaft and the hub on the far right.
      I got a 01m on my bench where the clutches got cooked so bad the car was moving in neutral, anyway I had a hell of a time removing the clutches and I wasn't able to separate the 1st-3rd from the 3rd-4th hub which is where you are at right now. I even tried throwing it on a 20ton press and it started bending, so I gave up and got a used tranny instead. Some thing you can't rebuild. I can upload a etka pic where it shows how it seperates, the way your picture is the far right hub and the center hub should separate from the far left hub which is also part of the shaft.
      Good luck, if you get it off let me know how.


      Modified by VR6_Idaho at 9:26 PM 6-28-2009

    6. 07-04-2009 12:25 AM #6
      VR6_Idaho:

      I took the snap ring the rest of the way off, it was really just barely on in the above photo. I can get large screwdrivers between the two clutch cages (inner and outer) but nothing budges. I certainly do not want to get forceful and bend some thing. You can hear the clutches slid back and forth when you vigorously shake the assembly. With a flashlight you can see these clutches as well flop around so they are not fused together. I will try to get some other photos of the right inside where that shaft goes into that clutch cage.

      It sure appears that it is pressed on, as the shaft has a tooth surface area that mates with that outer clutch cage toothed socket over the shaft. Another photo would show that better. I protected the end of the shaft and banged it down a few times on a hard surface (protected by a 1/2" hard rubber pad). The outer clutch cage did not budge, although the entrapped clutches bounce around like a baby rattle. I have gone to several trans shops, shown the door each time, which is what I expect.

      What did you say is next... C4?

      I wondered if that discoloration was normal, that is probably why the fluid smelled burned.

      All the other clutch assemblies looked good

      So for some reason this assembly failed..., would it be low pressure, bad valve???

      I did purchase a rebuilt torque converter, should I ever get that far!

      I have learned two things about these transmissions so far: A) they are either bad or going bad, and B) VW did not make enough of them and people must be sharing them. No body seems to have any available.

      I checked around for quotes to re-build the trans before I started it, anywhere from $1900 to $3,500. Just not worth it.

      I wonder if this part is not met to come apart. It looks like pressing it together, it would be easy to get on to strong solid surface, but to press apart, you would have to catch the outer walls of that outer clutch cage.

      I just can not see how this is coming apart. I am going to take two more aspirin and see if it helps!

      Thanks, Robert


      Modified by roberthil5 at 2:19 PM 7-5-2009


    7. 07-08-2009 03:34 PM #7
      VR6:

      I have access to a press, so, as you advised, I pressed it off. I have a piece of stainless tube (5" dia x 3.5" tall) that just fits over the inside clutch cage so that the outside cage can rest on it for pressing the assembly apart. The tube allows for easy press off of the outer clutch cage.

      If you want, email me your address and I will send you the stainless tube so you can have one as well for future pressing.

      It took very little pressure to press the outer clutch cage off, using the stainless tube to support the outer clutch cage all the way around (360 degrees); it was straight and sure pressing.

      The inside of that clutch cage was a real mess. The 3 other clutch assemblies looked like new, that one was completely cooked, which explains the discoloring in the above photo! It's no wonder the car only had reverse!

      Any idea why that clutch was so cooked?
      > Low Pressure?
      > Leaking piston?
      > Bad solenoid valve?

      Now how to deal with those springs under the pistons, I actually have a couple of ways to handle those re-compressions.

      Thanks for your help!


      Modified by roberthil5 at 12:36 PM 7-8-2009


    8. 07-29-2009 07:53 AM #8
      I was able to easily press off the K1 clutch assembly. The frictions were warped thin metal disc, the steels were more or less fused to them... i.e.toasted.

      I replaced the steels and the clutches, checked the thickness with calibrated calipers. also replaced the piston assembly with the new one from the rebuild kit, again checking all parts against old with calipers.

      Any way, put K1 back together, light press force did the trick. I can not turn K1 by hand, it is very tight. Is this normal?

      I am afraid that if it is not, I will have a new problem..., 1st gear all the time!!!

      I did soak the K1 clutches in VW trans fluid before assembly.

      Just want to make sure a stiff K1 is normal before I start final assembly.

      Thanks


    9. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 8th, 2007
      Location
      Kansas City Missouri
      Posts
      3,836
      Vehicles
      85 Jetta TD sold 2001 Jetta Tdi, 2000 Jetta Tdi
      07-29-2009 08:07 AM #9
      I'm not fully understanding. Are you saying the clutch hub (part that the clutchs spline to), wont turn?

      If the clutch clearance is correct, then yes, the clutch hub should turn freely. I wonder if overpressed if the clutches would bend. Also if one of the clutchs weren't splined into the clutch hub, ie the last one, then maybe it would bend the internal teeth and bind up the pack.




      Modified by CoolAirVw at 5:10 AM 7-29-2009

      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
      www.KansasCityTdi.com

    10. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 8th, 2007
      Location
      Kansas City Missouri
      Posts
      3,836
      Vehicles
      85 Jetta TD sold 2001 Jetta Tdi, 2000 Jetta Tdi
      07-29-2009 08:27 AM #10
      Quote, originally posted by roberthil5 »
      Any idea why that clutch was so cooked?
      > Low Pressure?
      > Leaking piston?
      > Bad solenoid valve?

      Modified by roberthil5 at 12:36 PM 7-8-2009

      Low pressure...yes.
      Leaking piston...yes.
      Bad solenoid... yes.

      With a clutch failure you need to assume a low pressure condition. Your trans had no forward so it could have been due to low fluid. Make sure you replace all the pistons in the drums. Look for wear in sealing ring areas that seal pressure going to the drums. Replace the EPC solenoid automatically, to make sure pressure is controlled well.

      Also there are some common wear areas in the valve body that make low pressure. Its very difficult to visually see the wear, The teqnique for finding wear is to vacuum test the valve lands to see how much vacuum they will hold. This process cant really be duplicated, for a reasonable cost by the do-it-yourselfer.

      Every 01m valve body I've ever checked had the main pressure regulator vavle worn, none of them would hold even half the amount of vacuum they should. Also the TCC valve wears terribly also.

      You should consider doing something with your valve body, since you've invested so much heart into this rebuild. I admire what you've done.

      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
      www.KansasCityTdi.com

    11. 07-30-2009 03:55 PM #11
      I pressed the K1 apart again to see if anything looked damaged from the assembly. I do not see how K1 could not be tight given this whole clutch and steel package is sandwiched between the piston (in the bottom) and the snap ring near the outer edge of the clutch housing.

      See the photo of housing and clutches after re-open, clutches and steels appear to be lined up fine and very tight.

      Given the pressure the springs under the piston apply, this clutch assembly is tight and does not turn freely. The old parts did, but the friction material was completely gone.

      BTW, all new under clutch as well (piston and seals).

      When I drained the trans, it was over filled by at least a quart. I bought the car with a bad trans, so its failure history is unknown.

      Here is what the old steels looked like:



      I also bought a new torque converter for it. I suppose I should see about a valve body. Any idea where I can find a decent re-built valve body?

      Going to replace the timing chain as well, why not?


      Modified by roberthil5 at 7:59 PM 7-30-2009


    12. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 8th, 2007
      Location
      Kansas City Missouri
      Posts
      3,836
      Vehicles
      85 Jetta TD sold 2001 Jetta Tdi, 2000 Jetta Tdi
      07-30-2009 11:06 PM #12
      I would assume you have something misassembled or you have incorrect thickness clutches or steels making no clearance in the clutch pack. Misassembly or no clearance of k1 makes bind up on 3-4, and a bind up in reverse.

      With that drum assembled like that sitting there can you rotate the clutches? Hook the bottom clutch and lift up. Can you lift it up and down?

      Proper assembly should be something like this..

      Install the pistons, return spring and snap ring.
      Install the wavey plate.
      Install one .079 steel plate.
      Install one friction plate
      Install one .057 steel plate

      STOP.

      Take the clutch hub with the larger against the bench.

      Install the top pressure plate onto the clutch hub
      Stack the remaining .057 steeles and clutches (alternating) onto the clutch hub, ending with a friction plate.
      Install the 4 plastic clutch retainers, (use new retainers, they break alot, and also act as support bushings for k3. Make sure the highest clutch is below the retainer tabs.
      Flip the clutch hub over and put it into the drum. Install the snap ring. At this point you should be able to rotate the clutch hub, and pressing in the K3 shouldn't change your ability to rotate the clutch hub.

      Maybe your clearance between K3 and k1 is incorrect??


      Modified by CoolAirVw at 8:54 PM 7-30-2009


      Modified by CoolAirVw at 8:59 PM 7-30-2009

      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
      www.KansasCityTdi.com

    13. 07-31-2009 08:16 AM #13
      "With that drum assembled like that sitting there can you rotate the clutches? Hook the bottom clutch and lift up. Can you lift it up and down?"

      No, those clutches are all firmly compressed together in that housing. I bet the engine could turn them, but I can't. I have something wrong!

      I had to compress the piston down a bit to get the snap ring in place the holds all the clutches in That snap ring is the one the red line goes to in the top photo. I will disassemble the K1 tonight and post a photo. I did measure the thickness of new clutches and steels to confirm they were the same as the old ones, even though the old ones were tore up on their faces.


    14. 08-02-2009 08:27 PM #14
      Rob,
      here are pictures of how it should be assembled. You start on the other hub with the plastic pieces(not sure what to call them). You can see there is the thick metal,friction,small metal,friction,small metal,friction then the plastic pieces on the inside then the rest of the clutches. After that you put the outer hub on it and it should five you about 1cm depth as you can see in my pictures below. I'm just going to link them since I left the HUGE resolution.

      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1092.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1094.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1095.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1096.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1097.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1098.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1099.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1100.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1101.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1102.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1103.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1104.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1106.JPG
      http://myweb.cableone.net/dado/01m/DSCF1107.JPG



      Modified by VR6_Idaho at 5:30 PM 8-2-2009


    15. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 8th, 2007
      Location
      Kansas City Missouri
      Posts
      3,836
      Vehicles
      85 Jetta TD sold 2001 Jetta Tdi, 2000 Jetta Tdi
      08-03-2009 02:54 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by VR6_Idaho »
      ...... You start on the other hub with the plastic pieces(not sure what to call them).

      Clutch retainers. They also act as support bushing for the other drum.

      Those pics are huge and show great detail. I want to get a camera like yours!


      Modified by CoolAirVw at 8:21 PM 8-3-2009

      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
      www.KansasCityTdi.com

    16. 08-03-2009 11:47 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by CoolAirVw »

      Clutch retainers. They also act as support bushing for the other drum.

      Those pics are huge and show great detail. I want to get a camera like yours!


      Modified by CoolAirVw at 8:21 PM 8-3-2009

      Thank you for the info...

      The camera is a Fujifilm S1000 and I got it for $120 few months ago from Newegg and now they only carry the new model S1500 and it's $199.
      http://www.newegg.com/Product/...22200

      Great camera, takes fast and clean pictures as well videos.


    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •