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    Thread: 06X-16V Hybrid - Thinking about building a new motor? STOP! READ THIS...

    1. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 09:03 PM #1




      06A Conversion kit - $999 USD + Shipping.
      Send over a PM when you are ready to order.


      Over the last few years I have found myself loving the 06A/06B/06F family of motors more and more compared to the old 9A/6A/PL motors of late.
      Now before any of you are wondering what I am talking about,we will take a brief trip down memory lane.The last 9A motor to leave the assembly line was over 15 years ago and VW made an attempt to revive the 16V with the ABF effort a motor that when transplanted into a MKII chassis brought smiles to everyones ears..
      Fortunately for most times have changed and Volkswagen "2nd" Generation (1st generation being external water pump motors) of Water cooled engines have been on the assembly line for over 8 years in chassis's way more popular than you ever could imagine.

      Over the last few months since talks about this started to raise,the emails have started to pile on and there are mostly geared towards the same question:

      "Hi,I have a 16V motor and I want to know if I should build it up using a 9A block or an ABA block"

      to which I reply:
      "Have you looked into a 06A/06B block?"

      Which results in a 5 minute explanation as to the pros and cons of each set up.The biggest obstacle for the 06A/16V hybrid was obtaining fasteners to bolt the block to the head.
      With the help of user = elrey a solution was found via ARP (available via PM)
      I was a huge advocate of the ABA/ABF motors 4 years ago (and still am today) but these blocks are for the extremist looking for a bigger rod ratio or taller deck block.

      If you are looking into building your 16V motor you really should consider sourcing a 2.0 8V motor out of a MKIV Golf with engine codes below:
      * AZG
      * AEG
      * AVH

      Why? Well I have compiled a table of pros and cons of each set up and maybe I can sway a few of you into reconsidering which block to use in your next big build.

      Building the 9A outright
      PROS:
      • No need to purchase another block

      CONS:
      • A few parts are getting to the point of NLA
      • sourcing used parts leaves you scouring the classifieds into 20+ year old motors and such
      • IM shaft driven oil pump - creating a weak point in the crankcase webbing
      • crankcase breather system is finiky at best.
      • No internal VR sensor pick up.


      Building a 9A/ABA hybrid:
      PROS:
      • Uses a 236mm deck height block
      • Has longer 159mm rods vs 144mm rods found in the 9A hereby increasing your rod ratio.
      • Has facility for a 60-2 wheel on the crank and a VR sensor in the block.
      • Has additional ribbing around the case and more mounting boses for "special projects"

      CONS:
      • Has an IM shaft and a shaft driven oil pump
      • Still has an external water pump
      • Requires machining of old/tired ABA serpentine pulleys to facilitate the increased width of the timing belt.
      • Serpentine conversion kits are expensive (trust me I know...I sell them ).


      Now we enter the new champ

      Building a 9A/06A hybrid:
      PROS:
      • Same deck height as the 9A so piston/rod combinations are a direct swap
      • Availability - practically every single MKIV Volkswagen/Audi A4 B5 (late)/ Audi A4 B5 / Seat Leon / Seat Cupra /Skoda Octavia / etc came with a 06"X" family engine making them the most common Volkswagen motor to date.
      • Internal water pump.
      • chain driven oil pump.
      • Has facility for a 60-2 wheel on the crank and a VR sensor in the block.
      • One of the strongest 4-cylinder water cooled blocks volkswagen has ever built with additional ribbing around the cylinder and crankshaft
      • Serpentine conversion comes standard .
      • 8 different Accessory brackets avaialable making Alternator relocations as simple as a bracket swap.
      • Oil filter housing has built crankcase breather with provisions for turbocharger oil feed and crankcase ventillation.
      • Provisions for turbocharger coolant return at the rear of the block if the boss is drilled and tapped for an M14 fitting.
      • OEM Aluminum oil pan (for those that love AL pans).

      CONS:
      • Requires a complete bottom end out of a MKIV
      • Convincing people to go this route


      Well I hope this clears up alot of weary minds.I will be posting up the 06A conversion shortly for those that are interested.

      Thanks

      p.s. For those of you looking for a clean 16V plug wire set up:

      06A 16V plug wire kit - $289 USD + Shipping.
      Last edited by Issam Abed; 08-18-2011 at 01:43 AM.

    2. 08-27-2009 09:20 PM #2
      Interesting. Lets see it!

    3. Member REPOMAN's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 09:31 PM #3
      This is a pretty sound thread but i do have exception to 1 thing

      Building a 9A/06A hybrid
      PROS:
      Same deck height as the 9A so piston/rod combinations are a direct swap

      Availability - practically every single MKIV Volkswagen/Audi A4 B5 (late)/ Audi A4 B5 / Seat Leon / Seat Cupra /Skoda Octavia / etc came with a 06"X" family engine making them the most common Volkswagen motor to date.

      Internal water pump.

      chain driven oil pump.

      Has facility for a 60-2 wheel on the crank and a VR sensor in the block.

      One of the strongest 4-cylinder water cooled blocks volkswagen has ever built with additional ribbing around the cylinder and crankshaft

      Serpentine conversion comes standard .

      8 different Accessory brackets avaialable making Alternator relocations as simple as a bracket swap.

      Oil filter housing has built crankcase breather with provisions for turbocharger oil feed and crankcase ventillation.

      Provisions for turbocharger coolant return at the rear of the block if the boss is drilled and tapped for an M14 fitting.

      OEM Aluminum oil pan (for those that love AL pans).

      CONS:

      chain driven oil pump.

      Convincing people to go this route
      I would add the chain driven oil pump to the Con side.

      The internal chain is more susceptible to failure and has higher
      maintenance cost.

      these motors are notorious for the chain guilds wearing out clogging
      the oil pump pickup and starving the head, turbo and motor of oil
      pressure causing an expensive repair. ask anyone you know who owns one.
      My friend with a 1.8T Audi has had this happen twice in 2 years.


      another thing to consider is internal timing chain = higher maintenance cost.
      external timing belt= lower maintenance cost.

      I stopped by a local tuner shop today and there it was another 1.8T
      with the oil pump pick up clogged from a worn OIL PUMP TENSIONER
      Whole motor starvation. Big $$$$$$
      11/5/09


      Modified by REPOMAN at 9:15 PM 11-5-2009

      500HP 1990 Cowrado
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    4. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 09:41 PM #4
      Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

      The internal chain is more susceptible to failure and has higher
      maintenance cost.

      I have owned my GTI since new and still have not changed the oil pump chain.
      Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »
      these motors are notorious for the chain guilds wearing out clogging
      the oil pump pickup and starving the head, turbo and motor of oil
      pressure causing an expensive repair. ask anyone you know who owns one.
      My friend with a 1.8T Audi has had this happen twice in 2 years.

      I am going to disagree with this fully.Do not need to ask anyone who owns one because 4 of the vehicles we have here run 06A/06B/06F bottom ends. The clogging issues with the Audi A4 were due to ignorance based on the service intervals.
      The oil pump chain guide is no different in quality than the VR6 motors and besides the replacement chain + guide is less than $53 USD.

      Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

      another thing to consider is internal timing chain = higher maintenance cost.
      external timing belt= lower maintenance cost.

      IM Shaft driven oil pump = IM shaft bearings + installation time (average person in this forum will not be able to change IM shaft bearings) + wear on oil pump internals so it is a catch 22 situation with respect to maintainence.

    5. Member REPOMAN's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 10:06 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed »

      I have owned my GTI since new and still have not changed the oil pump chain.

      I am going to disagree with this fully. The clogging issues with the Audi A4 were due to ignorance based on the service intervals.
      The oil pump chain guide is no different in quality than the VR6 motors and besides the replacement chain + guide is less than $53 USD.

      And the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL ?
      what is the recomended service interval?

      l

      Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed »

      IM Shaft driven oil pump = IM shaft bearings + installation time (average person in this forum will not be able to change IM shaft bearings) + wear on oil pump internals so it is a catch 22 situation with respect to maintainence.

      I have driven several 4cyl VW engines into the 300k+ mile mark and have never
      had a IM shaft bearing failure.
      and i tend to drive mine pretty hard.
      what is the recomended factory service interval of the IM Shaft bearing?

      as for oil pump the only time i have touched one is when i am rebuilding a high milage motor,
      replacement is allways recomended.
      never had a failure.




      Modified by REPOMAN at 6:07 PM 8-27-2009

      500HP 1990 Cowrado
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    6. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 10:16 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

      And the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL ?
      what is the recomended service interval?


      Notice the failure rate of Audi motors vs VW motors.Alot of Audi owners drove there engines into the ground and I mean a quick search a few boards will show posts I made almost 5 years ago about this same issue.

      Not sure why the but this thread was created to give people another scope about what is available out there.Your experience is going to be different to mine based on VW/Audi motors and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

      You dont like the oil pump chain guide or the tensioner is fine by me but it is hardly as catastrophic as you are making it out to be.I would take the chain driven oil pump over a timing belt driven IM shaft wabling quirky fitting oil pump any day of the week.


    7. Member REPOMAN's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 10:49 PM #7
      No need to get upset
      I just stated good information on the Cost differences and shed light
      on a known issue.

      I would still like to know what
      the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL?
      what is the recommended service interval?

      I was just on the phone with my a friend that's a 30 year + master
      VW/Audi mechanic and he says
      timing belt ever 100k or sooner
      cross member, oil pan, timing cover, $350-$700+parts
      he also said congealed cheap oil is a common factor that causes this failure.


      500HP 1990 Cowrado
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    8. Member NJRrado's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 10:56 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by Building a 9A/ABA hybrid »
      Requires a complete bottom end out of a MKIV

      Why is this a con? And shouldn't that be Mk III?

      Am I mistaken, or wouldn't you also need a complete bottom end for a 9a/06a hybrid also?

      I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm just confused with some of the logic.



      Modified by NJRrado at 9:58 PM 8-27-2009


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      08-27-2009 11:05 PM #9
      I have to agree with NJRado, the ABA blocks are available in MKIII chassis cars since 1994 and they're super available and significantly cheaper than mk4 blocks.

      Issam, the new ideas are awesome, we've all been hashing over the same block head combos for what seems an eternity so a new approach is more than welcome. Just be sure to present the information accurately.


    10. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-27-2009 11:41 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by NJRrado »

      Why is this a con? And shouldn't that be Mk III?

      Am I mistaken, or wouldn't you also need a complete bottom end for a 9a/06a hybrid also?


      Edited
      Thanks but yes most people when they hear "MKIV" think $$$...
      Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

      the cost of Labor for this SERVICE INTERVAL?
      what is the recommended service interval?

      Not sure what the cost is but average 3-4 hours to change the chain and tensioner going by dealership standards.

      Quote, originally posted by REPOMAN »

      he also said congealed cheap oil is a common factor that causes this failure.

      Yup and alot of Audi owners used this in the past especially on the AEB's.

    11. Member evilrobot0's Avatar
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      08-28-2009 02:25 AM #11
      hmmm... interesting... I have 6 2.0 9A 16V's complete with heads sitting in my storage unit... and a full motronic 5.9 setup from an OBD2 ABA MK3 siting about as well....

      so; what would I need to make everything go?

      AEG bottom end, throw in rods and pistons out of one of my 9A's, bolt on the 16V head and plug in the mot 5.9 setup?

      sorry for the noob-ish questions... what about timing belt for the cams?


    12. Member NJRrado's Avatar
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      08-28-2009 09:58 AM #12
      Another question: So would the 9a/06a hybrid using 9a rods/pistons give you a compression ratio ~10:1? If that's the case I definitely see the benefit over an aba16v for those wanting to stay naturally aspirated.

    13. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-28-2009 11:26 AM #13
      Quote, originally posted by evilrobot0 »

      AEG bottom end, throw in rods and pistons out of one of my 9A's, bolt on the 16V head and plug in the mot 5.9 setup?
      sorry for the noob-ish questions... what about timing belt for the cams?

      You can use the Motronic 5.9 from the ABA if you put the hall window from the ABA distributor into the 16V housing.
      The camshaft gear is always going to be the MKIV 8V unit whether AZG/AEG or similar due to the offset from the cylinder head cast.Timing belt depends on the tensioner you use.I managed to get an AZG unit to work.
      Rey used a Lexus from a 3.0 so it depends on your tensioner.
      Quote, originally posted by NJRrado »
      Another question: So would the 9a/06a hybrid using 9a rods/pistons give you a compression ratio ~10:1? If that's the case I definitely see the benefit over an aba16v for those wanting to stay naturally aspirated.

      Whatever CR you had in the 9A you will have in the 06A.Think of it as a heart transplant.Same heart different body


      Modified by Issam Abed at 11:15 AM 8-31-2009

    14. Banned j_m_o_a's Avatar
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      08-28-2009 11:55 AM #14
      this is a great thread. i want to see what comes out of this. i am at the point where i have to rebiuld my 9a because i hydralocked to cilynders.
      Is this the final shaping of the motor?
      MKIV botom end and block; 9A head with MKIV camgear and timing belt?
      How about fuel? i have to run the electronic injection?

    15. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-28-2009 11:57 AM #15
      Quote, originally posted by j_m_o_a »
      this is a great thread. i want to see what comes out of this. i am at the point where i have to rebiuld my 9a because i hydralocked to cilynders.
      Is this the final shaping of the motor?
      MKIV botom end and block; 9A head with MKIV camgear and timing belt?
      How about fuel? i have to run the electronic injection?

      Run your CIS or whatever,the block has no affect on what fuel system you use as the knock sensors are in the same location.

    16. Member diceman469's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 10:08 AM #16
      Thank you for posting this, a 3rd option for alot of us.

      Personally I would stick with the ABA as the best "bolt together" option. Taller block, rod-stroke ratio, 60-2 wheel, and the fact that I can throw a rock and hit a dozen blocks in any pick-and-pull. 5 years down the road may change may make that more difficult.

      I do like the idea of an internal waterpump and serpentine setup though!


    17. Member almstVW's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 12:16 PM #17
      Sooooo... can i use the AEB/AVH engine management with a 16V head on it?

      i have a complete AEB, as in everything, i also have a AVH less a t-body a head and a computer...

      have countless 1.8L 16Vs, and countless forged and non-forged ABAs and the management for all...

      what HG do i need?
      what rod bearings?

      is it too soon to ask all these dumb questions?

      Quote Originally Posted by stealthmk1
      almstvw is no joke

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      08-31-2009 12:18 PM #18
      And would you consider that a good upgrade for an turbo setup or we should stick with the aba/16v?

      I'm talking price-wise.


    19. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 12:21 PM #19
      Quote, originally posted by diceman469 »

      Personally I would stick with the ABA as the best "bolt together" option. Taller block, rod-stroke ratio, 60-2 wheel, and the fact that I can throw a rock and hit a dozen blocks in any pick-and-pull.

      True but then there is that issue of pistons
      Quote, originally posted by almstVW »
      Sooooo... can i use the AEB/AVH engine management with a 16V head on it?.

      AEB and AVH are 2 different engines.I assume you mean AEG/AVH?
      If so yes you can use it with a 16V head,just make sure you lengthen the wires for the harness approiately.
      Quote, originally posted by almstVW »

      i have a complete AEB, as in everything, i also have a AVH less a t-body a head and a computer...

      have countless 1.8L 16Vs, and countless forged and non-forged ABAs and the management for all...

      what HG do i need?
      what rod bearings?


      AEG or AEB?
      HG would be AEG/AZG head gasket and rod bearings will be any inline-4.

    20. Member almstVW's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 12:47 PM #20
      AEG, sorry had the 20V hybrid thread opened also... as i also have 3 AEBs... having trouble deciding what engine to build next...
      Quote Originally Posted by stealthmk1
      almstvw is no joke

    21. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 01:05 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by almstVW »
      AEG, sorry had the 20V hybrid thread opened also... as i also have 3 AEBs... having trouble deciding what engine to build next...

      You can run the AVH/AZG management on the hybrid motor.
      Like I said I laid out all 3 options here for you,it is up to you to chose.

    22. Member dubdaze68's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 01:48 PM #22
      Cons to the setup for the mk1 guys:

      Needs custom motormounts.

      Availability of complete mkIV's in junkyards is slim.

      People with mkIV's weren't real big on maintenance, meaning lots of heat damage in blocks.

      Aluminum oil pans. And that's a detractor for a LOT of people on here. Hell, I've hit my stock oil pan on my mkIII's at a little less than stock height.

      #DRH2014
      DCIVW
      Crooked Euros.

    23. Member speed51133!'s Avatar
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      08-31-2009 03:03 PM #23
      im gonna go on the record and vote that the aba/16v is best.
      to address the cons, just get an electric drive water pump, and mount it anywhere you want.
      get a dry sump system to address any oil issues.
      i still run an intermediate shaft, but it doesnt power anything. its machined super thin so its just "there".

    24. Member dubdaze68's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 04:08 PM #24
      Dry sumps are a bit thin on the ground, mostly made for the old Super Vee motors by either Drake or Bertils.
      #DRH2014
      DCIVW
      Crooked Euros.

    25. Member speed51133!'s Avatar
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      08-31-2009 04:59 PM #25
      i dont know what you mean by "a bit thin on the ground".
      if you mean the depth of the oil pan is a bit thin, well, it is, and thats the point.

      anyways, there are contemporary companies that make dry sump setups for the aba and later vw 4 bangers.


    26. Member duke_seb's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 09:13 PM #26
      you can also do this swap on the BEV engine aswell that is what im currently working on...... infact its even easier with the BEV as the FPR is located in the fuel tank so you dont have to worry about a return line......

      check out my build thread in my sig

      Currently from what I can tell there are 3 of use in the MKIV group that are working on MKIV 2L 16V's NA and Turbo

      They are
      Me
      elRey
      Shifty

      :bow Old Vortex

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Really Volvo? A failure of system that is supposed to save the inattentive would have been noticed by a real inattentive driver?
      Really?

    27. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 09:33 PM #27
      Quote, originally posted by dubdaze68 »

      Needs custom motormounts.

      No longer an issue for MK1's. We can make motor mount brackets to put a 02J gearbox and ANY 06A/06B motor in a MK1 in less than 2 weeks.
      Quote, originally posted by dubdaze68 »

      Availability of complete mkIV's in junkyards is slim.

      Even the 2.0's? Seem to be a dime a dozen where ever I go...

      Quote, originally posted by duke_seb »
      that are working on MKIV 2L 16V's NA
      Count me in as thats what spawned this thread.I am doing one for a customer here

    28. Member duke_seb's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 09:43 PM #28
      for this swap you need 4 custom pieces... elrey and I can vouch for this

      you need a custom side coolant flange..... there are currently 2 ways.... elRey has the more expensive way but prettier.... I have the cheaper way but functional

      you need a TB Flange again elRey currently has the nicer one because he has access to a water jet...... I am still doing a little custom work with a BBM Adaptor and a custom made piece designed to match the MKIV 2L TB Gasket.....

      you need a front coolant flange block off

      you need a lower intake side block off or possibly use this spot for another vacuum line

      and you need special head bolts

      :bow Old Vortex

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Really Volvo? A failure of system that is supposed to save the inattentive would have been noticed by a real inattentive driver?
      Really?

    29. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 09:47 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by duke_seb »
      for this swap you need 4 custom pieces... elrey and I can vouch for this

      Only if you are putting it in a MKIV chassis.For a MKII you dont need those custom pieces.Only need to join the thermostat bypass hose to the middle of the 16V head.

      Quote, originally posted by duke_seb »

      you need a custom side coolant flange..... there are currently 2 ways.... elRey has the more expensive way but prettier.... I have the cheaper way but functional

      Only if it is going in a MKIV chassis.Same goes for the rest of the post
      Quote, originally posted by duke_seb »

      and you need special head bolts

      Nope,
      I carry ARP head studs for this.

    30. Member duke_seb's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 09:56 PM #30
      Quote, originally posted by Issam Abed »

      Nope,
      I carry ARP head studs for this.

      I already bought the bolts..... but ARP studs will work too yes

      regarding the rest of your post im confused now..... y would you stick a MKIV 2L 16V into a MKII..... y not a 9A?

      you must have to do a bunch of wiring to get a MKIV 2L into a MKII

      :bow Old Vortex

      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Really Volvo? A failure of system that is supposed to save the inattentive would have been noticed by a real inattentive driver?
      Really?

    31. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 10:04 PM #31
      Quote, originally posted by duke_seb »

      y would you stick a MKIV 2L 16V into a MKII..... y not a 9A?

      Thats the whole point of this post.Why rebuild a 9A when there is a better block available.
      Quote, originally posted by duke_seb »

      you must have to do a bunch of wiring to get a MKIV 2L into a MKII

      The wiring is the same.You are using the 9A wiring.The knock sensors on the 9A motor are in the exact same position on the AZG motor.

      I will be posting pictures of my all aluminum hybrid later on.Just waiting on a 9A 16V valve cover.


    32. Member evilrobot0's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 10:05 PM #32
      you can do whatever wiring that you want; you could even run the stock MK2 16V CIS-E Motronic if you wanted too. Sam was just presenting this as another block option as opposed to just 9A or ABA.

      I think I am gonna build one with the MK4 block for my MK2, but I will either be running standalone or OBD2 from a MK3 2.0


    33. Member evilrobot0's Avatar
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      08-31-2009 10:06 PM #33
      if you don't already have a 9A 16V Valve cover, I have SEVERAL of them in my storage unit; you are welcome to have one

    34. Member Shifty's Avatar
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      09-01-2009 10:36 AM #34
      Building one myself right now!
      Check out MrsShifty's 16v MkIV Build!

      Robert Lackey - Service Manager, Fowler Volkswagen of Norman

    35. Member dubidoobs's Avatar
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      09-01-2009 03:27 PM #35
      Quote, originally posted by evilrobot0 »
      ...I think I am gonna build one with the MK4 block for my MK2, but I will either be running standalone or OBD2 from a MK3 2.0

      the mk3 OBD2 can run the 16v for your swap? i didn't know that...have you confirmed this setup works yet? if this works better than the cis-e, then i might look into this for my swap.

      there's such a wealth of new information on this forum!!! o joy!

      a bad day in a Volkswagen, is better than a good day in a Honda...

      MKII Alpine White GTi 2.0/1 16V (in the works)
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      SLAM-N-EURO'Z

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