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    Thread: P2188 - System too Rich at Idle

    1. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      2007 Fahrenheit GTI #776
      10-13-2009 08:42 PM #1
      I have been getting these codes for the past few weeks. I get quite a few throughout the week, all soft codes. However, every Tuesday night for the past 3 weeks my CEL pops on and this is what it shows:

      Quote »
      Tuesday,13,October,2009,21:14:26:04256
      VCDS Version: Release 908.0

      Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.LBL
      Control Module Part Number: 1K0 907 115 H HW: 8P0 907 115 B
      Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0040
      Software Coding: 0403010A1C070160
      Work Shop Code: WSC 78897 155 403174
      1 Fault Found:

      008584 - Bank 1; System too Rich at Idle
      P2188 - 008 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
      Freeze Frame:
      Fault Status: 11101000
      Fault Priority: 2
      Fault Frequency: 10
      Mileage: 80535 km
      Time Indication: 0
      Date: 2000.00.00
      Time: 11:42:42

      Freeze Frame:
      RPM: 767 /min
      Load: 24.7 %
      Speed: 0.0 km/h
      Temperature: 87.0°C
      Temperature: 21.0°C
      Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
      Voltage: 14.351 V


      Readiness: 0000 0000

      I can't find much information about the code on vortex and there is no entry on ross-tech's wiki.

      Car runs fine. It blows a quite bit of black smoke from the RS4 injectors, but nothing different from day one of the injectors.


    2. 10-13-2009 09:04 PM #2
      I've encountered that on my MK5 GTI recently as well.

      I swapped out the existing MAF sensor with a spare one.

      Viola! No more codes...


    3. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      2007 Fahrenheit GTI #776
      10-13-2009 09:13 PM #3
      I have a spare MAF I can swap out. I will try cleaning mine first though. It has been a looong time since it was cleaned.

    4. 10-16-2009 12:37 AM #4
      any luck getting rid of the CEL?

    5. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      2007 Fahrenheit GTI #776
      12-08-2009 04:31 PM #5
      Time to bump this. I have had this CEL on constant since I created this thread. If I clear it, it comes back in 30 miles.

      I turned on the car earlier to move it up to my driveway. It was stone cold. I swapped the MAF with one I have laying around (works fine). After the MAF was swapped, I get back in and turn it on. It has passed the cat warmup period and the revs have dropped to normal idle. I look at the a/f and it is richer than normal. I give it a quick blip to 2000 and the a/f stays at 10.7 for a good 10 seconds after the revs have dropped back to idle. Is this normal? Might I have a failing O2 sensor?

      I have emailed revo twice about this CEL and got no response...

      When do they switch to winter blend gas? I would think mid October is a bit early for this area as it doesnt get col until mid November.

      Revo settings are on B9 T7 F9


    6. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      12-08-2009 04:51 PM #6
      what are u using to show ur AFR and EGT on ur head unit?

      and yeah, id say ur O2 might need to be replaced if all else fails.

      2006 Audi A3 | 2.0T | 6MT | APR Stage 2+ | Fully loaded ECU | FK grill | EJ CAI | BSH TBP |EJ DV Reloc. | Eurojet TBE | EuroJet Catch Tank | Cross drilled and Slotted Rotors | EBC "Redstuff" Kevlar | Raceland Coilovers | Forge Side to Side Short Shifter | Forge Front to Back Short Shifter | Devil's Own DVC-30 Methanol injection | BSH RSB | BSH Motor mount Kit | 42 DD Shifter Bushings | HPFP Stage 1 upgrade |

    7. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      2007 Fahrenheit GTI #776
      12-08-2009 05:38 PM #7
      Quote, originally posted by Krieger »
      what are u using to show ur AFR and EGT on ur head unit?

      and yeah, id say ur O2 might need to be replaced if all else fails.

      Car pc and a bluetooth OBD2 scanner with Dash Command running on the computer

      On the way to class I noticed when I am coming to a stop, just before the car stop, the a/f plummets and goes to 9.5-10 for a short period of time and then comes back up to 14.6-14.7...


    8. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      12-08-2009 05:46 PM #8
      So you clear the code and it comes right back after very little time? I take it your fuel trims go very out of whack in almost no time, right? Does your oil smell like gasoline? How bout if you change your oil, clear codes, and then drive around? Does it come on quite as quickly or does it suddenly take a bit longer?

      If that was a whole bunch of Yeses I think you may have lots of fuel in your oil either caused by the RS4 injectors washing down the cylinder walls or a leaky KMD HPFP. The fuel will get into your oil, then into your intake tract, finally messing with your fuel trims which will throw a rich off idle code.

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    9. 12-08-2009 06:40 PM #9
      Hmmmmmm.... In your Sig it says "KMD Fuel Pump". You were looking for the cause of your CEL? Wellp there it is. It seized up on you, I've got $100.00 that says that's your problem.
      Sold the VAG COM

    10. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      2007 Fahrenheit GTI #776
      12-08-2009 08:50 PM #10
      er, double post >.<


      Modified by staulkor at 8:52 PM 12-8-2009

    11. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      12-08-2009 08:51 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by Arin@APR »
      So you clear the code and it comes right back after very little time? I take it your fuel trims go very out of whack in almost no time, right? Does your oil smell like gasoline? How bout if you change your oil, clear codes, and then drive around? Does it come on quite as quickly or does it suddenly take a bit longer?

      If that was a whole bunch of Yeses I think you may have lots of fuel in your oil either caused by the RS4 injectors washing down the cylinder walls or a leaky KMD HPFP. The fuel will get into your oil, then into your intake tract, finally messing with your fuel trims which will throw a rich off idle code.

      Code comes back after 30 miles of driving. Fuel trims are actually ok for RS4 injectors, -0.3% short -4.5% long. Well I need an oil change so of course it will smell like gas since it has 5000 miles on it. I will have to wait a short time once the new oil is in to get a fair reading on that. And same goes to see if the CELs go away with new oil.


      Quote, originally posted by rippie74 »
      Hmmmmmm.... In your Sig it says "KMD Fuel Pump". You were looking for the cause of your CEL? Wellp there it is. It seized up on you, I've got $100.00 that says that's your problem.

      Where is my $100 because I still push my 130 bar all day long. Ive had a seized pump, I know what they do and how they act when they are seized...it aint seized Leaking? Possibly. But there are some other, more likely, things that it could be before that imo.

      On a side note, replaced MAF and cleared codes before I went to class. 25 mile drive each way, CEL came on on the way home, lol.


    12. 12-08-2009 10:11 PM #12
      I'm telling ya bro, it's the hpfp
      Sold the VAG COM

    13. 12-08-2009 11:18 PM #13
      Quote, originally posted by Arin@APR »
      So you clear the code and it comes right back after very little time? I take it your fuel trims go very out of whack in almost no time, right? Does your oil smell like gasoline? How bout if you change your oil, clear codes, and then drive around? Does it come on quite as quickly or does it suddenly take a bit longer?

      If that was a whole bunch of Yeses I think you may have lots of fuel in your oil either caused by the RS4 injectors washing down the cylinder walls or a leaky KMD HPFP. The fuel will get into your oil, then into your intake tract, finally messing with your fuel trims which will throw a rich off idle code.

      The pump internals are not the ones responsible of the possible leaks, we have had hpfp failures in oem pumps, kmd pumps and autotech pumps, so ill be carefull to call out a certain brand here.

      the possible fail is caused because the spring seal of the oem hpfp goes bananas, cause you install a brand new pump into a allready used seal so the used seal, seals so to speak around the oem shaft, you put a brand new shaft in there call it kmd, autotech or awe and the seal its never going to be perfect, in some cases it fails in some it doesnt, so its better to install the internals in a brand new pump.

      to the OP smell your oil if it smells too much to gas, then likely your hpfp its gone, if thats the case just buy a new one swap your kmd internals and you shouldnt have any more problems, if the problem persists send me a PM i now a little secret that also causes this problem and its a 35 dlls piece


      Modified by mexico@unitronic.ca at 8:22 PM 12-8-2009


    14. Member vwgtimk41088's Avatar
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      12-08-2009 11:44 PM #14
      Hasn't been mentioned yet, are you running OEM PCV or an aftermarket setup.

      IIRC this could be associated with the PCV system.


    15. 12-08-2009 11:46 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by vwgtimk41088 »
      Hasn't been mentioned yet, are you running OEM PCV or an aftermarket setup.

      IIRC this could be associated with the PCV system.

      I've still got that $100.00 on it that it's the hpfp, any takers?


      Modified by rippie74 at 6:45 PM 12-10-2009

      Sold the VAG COM

    16. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 12:40 AM #16
      if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.

      otherwise im still saying O2.

      2006 Audi A3 | 2.0T | 6MT | APR Stage 2+ | Fully loaded ECU | FK grill | EJ CAI | BSH TBP |EJ DV Reloc. | Eurojet TBE | EuroJet Catch Tank | Cross drilled and Slotted Rotors | EBC "Redstuff" Kevlar | Raceland Coilovers | Forge Side to Side Short Shifter | Forge Front to Back Short Shifter | Devil's Own DVC-30 Methanol injection | BSH RSB | BSH Motor mount Kit | 42 DD Shifter Bushings | HPFP Stage 1 upgrade |

    17. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 12:48 AM #17
      Quote, originally posted by Krieger »
      otherwise im still saying O2.

      I am going to "borrow" my sister's O2 sensor and see what happens


    18. Member jhines_06gli's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 07:08 AM #18
      what value do you have in block 32, field 2? Make sure you have not cleared code for about 100 miles or so and let me know what that reading is......
      -J. Hines

      Oil cap smell like gas?

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    19. 12-09-2009 07:15 AM #19
      Quote, originally posted by Krieger »
      if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.

      otherwise im still saying O2.

      When the seals fail the pump piston gets scored/scratched up & then seizes. That's why I said previously that it's a hpfp failure. I speak from personal experience on this one.

      Sold the VAG COM

    20. 12-09-2009 07:58 AM #20
      I had similar symptoms but my fuel trims were way worse. It was a leaking seal on the HPFP.


      -Cad


    21. 12-09-2009 08:10 AM #21
      Quote, originally posted by Krieger »
      if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.

      otherwise im still saying O2.

      O2 sensors don't just go bad, and replacing them is just a bandaid to whatever the real problem is. Silicone is a big no no for O2 sensors but the fact the you have this code is actually telling you that your O2 sensor is working properly. They generate a voltage based on the amount of HCs in the gas stream, varying from about 100mV to 900mV averaging about 450mV. If they are generating consistently higher or lower than this your ECU will take note.

      Pulling your HPFP is easier than swapping O2 sensors.


    22. Member jhines_06gli's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 09:17 AM #22
      The KMD pump internals are about 0.098mm larger in diameter than the factory pump shaft.

      Say you have 30K miles on your factory pump.......the spring-loaded seal is formed to the EXACT size of the shaft and when you shove the slightly larger KMD shaft through, it stretched the seal ever so slightly. But we are dealing with EXTREME heats here since it's bolted to the head and fuel which can get about anywhere!!

      And yes, if you let the issue go on long enough, you will scar the shaft and will need new internals, BUT if you have the latest version with the coating, this is not an issue! If the fuel in oil continues to go on for a even longer, you compromise having the bearing shells seperate from the materials on your rods and mains.......so BE CAREFUL how long you let this go on! You need to get the HPFP out and internals swapped to new unit ASAP!

      -J. Hines

      PM me, I have multiple pumps brand new in bags for this reason.....you should put a 100% UNUSED HPFP in with rebuild to ensure there are no issues!

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    23. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 10:11 AM #23
      Quote, originally posted by mexico@unitronic.ca »

      The pump internals are not the ones responsible of the possible leaks, we have had hpfp failures in oem pumps, kmd pumps and autotech pumps, so ill be carefull to call out a certain brand here.

      the possible fail is caused because the spring seal of the oem hpfp goes bananas, cause you install a brand new pump into a allready used seal so the used seal, seals so to speak around the oem shaft, you put a brand new shaft in there call it kmd, autotech or awe and the seal its never going to be perfect, in some cases it fails in some it doesnt, so its better to install the internals in a brand new pump.

      to the OP smell your oil if it smells too much to gas, then likely your hpfp its gone, if thats the case just buy a new one swap your kmd internals and you shouldnt have any more problems, if the problem persists send me a PM i now a little secret that also causes this problem and its a 35 dlls piece

      I meant no disrespect by mentioning the KMD pump, however as you mentioned the spring seals do 'go bananas' and leak. We discovered this early on in our fuel pump development program and as such install brand new seals with every pump. KMD pump reuses these seals, thus increasing chances of damage and leaking.

      For the record, I have not seen an alarming rate of OEM pumps leaking. I actually don't think I've ever personally seen it happen. I've only see the issue after the internals were swapped and the spring seal was reused.

      Quote, originally posted by staulkor »
      Code comes back after 30 miles of driving. Fuel trims are actually ok for RS4 injectors, -0.3% short -4.5% long.

      So when the code comes on your fuel trims are only at -4.5%? In the cases I've seen similar to yours (rich/lean) fuel trims were above +-15% all the way to the max limit.

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    24. Member wazzap1101's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 02:09 PM #24
      Quote, originally posted by Krieger »
      if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.

      otherwise im still saying O2.

      X2, O2 sensors will mess with the A/F ratio


    25. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 04:02 PM #25
      On a side note, I just passed emissions, LOL. Maryland fail

    26. 12-09-2009 06:45 PM #26
      Well i'm sure it's all related i've got a 06 A4 w/ a APR Stg I i'm having a hell of a time fighting what the issue is.. I have a KMD internaled pump, and my Short Term's are maxed @ -25% and my Long Terms are -19%... Its filling up the crankcase w/ gas, and the driveability of the car blows.. on the hwy above 3K or so it buzzes along fine.. but below that.. its a nightmare!.. any idea if the HPFP seal's can cause my issues? that'd be a great easy fix...

    27. 12-09-2009 06:50 PM #27
      Quote, originally posted by IllusionalTA »
      Well i'm sure it's all related i've got a 06 A4 w/ a APR Stg I i'm having a hell of a time fighting what the issue is.. I have a KMD internaled pump, and my Short Term's are maxed @ -25% and my Long Terms are -19%... Its filling up the crankcase w/ gas, and the driveability of the car blows.. on the hwy above 3K or so it buzzes along fine.. but below that.. its a nightmare!.. any idea if the HPFP seal's can cause my issues? that'd be a great easy fix...

      The seals are gone & the piston will seize as a result. Be it scratched up or a burnt piston from rubbing against the housing of the pump. Either way,it's a hpfp failure.

      Sold the VAG COM

    28. Member jhines_06gli's Avatar
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      12-09-2009 08:41 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by IllusionalTA »
      Well i'm sure it's all related i've got a 06 A4 w/ a APR Stg I i'm having a hell of a time fighting what the issue is.. I have a KMD internaled pump, and my Short Term's are maxed @ -25% and my Long Terms are -19%... Its filling up the crankcase w/ gas, and the driveability of the car blows.. on the hwy above 3K or so it buzzes along fine.. but below that.. its a nightmare!.. any idea if the HPFP seal's can cause my issues? that'd be a great easy fix...

      Buy a new HPFP and swap internals over......remmeber ot use moly-lube on all components and make sure everything is clean when assembling.
      -J. Hines

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    29. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      12-10-2009 09:59 AM #29
      If anyone want's to avoid this issue, they can pick up an APR HPFP. We have them on sale right now and every pump is built and tested for several minutes before ever being installed in your engine.

      GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter
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    30. 12-10-2009 12:49 PM #30
      Quote, originally posted by jhines_06gli »

      Buy a new HPFP and swap internals over......remmeber ot use moly-lube on all components and make sure everything is clean when assembling.
      -J. Hines

      I did that & it still blew up... the same day

      Sold the VAG COM

    31. Member staulkor's Avatar
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      12-10-2009 05:12 PM #31
      Quote, originally posted by Arin@APR »
      If anyone want's to avoid this issue, they can pick up an APR HPFP. We have them on sale right now and every pump is built and tested for several minutes before ever being installed in your engine.

      Thanks for the sale pitch Arin. We already know this. And we don't actually know the cause of my rich codes. This entire thread is just speculation at this point and until I actually figure out what it is, the HPFP is the best guess everyone has. Keep marketing out of troubleshooting threads please.

      And just to let you know, I unfortunately will probably get an APR fuel pump sometime in the future if it shows my HPFP is to blame. I say unfortunately because it is so damned expensive just like everything else APR.

      Anyways, I have a new follower to swap in. It's about that time anyway.


    32. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      12-10-2009 05:22 PM #32
      Quote, originally posted by staulkor »
      I say unfortunately because it is so damned expensive just like everything else APR.

      The reason I brought it up is because the rebuild is also on sale which is almost half the cost. i wasn't sure if you were aware.

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    33. 12-10-2009 06:46 PM #33
      Quote, originally posted by staulkor »

      Thanks for the sale pitch Arin. We already know this. And we don't actually know the cause of my rich codes. This entire thread is just speculation at this point and until I actually figure out what it is, the HPFP is the best guess everyone has. Keep marketing out of troubleshooting threads please.

      And just to let you know, I unfortunately will probably get an APR fuel pump sometime in the future if it shows my HPFP is to blame. I say unfortunately because it is so damned expensive just like everything else APR.

      Anyways, I have a new follower to swap in. It's about that time anyway.

      $100.00... anyone... anyone...?

      Sold the VAG COM

    34. Member Krieger's Avatar
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      12-10-2009 06:52 PM #34
      just replace ur front O2 and see if that helps. its not like its incredibly hard to do, and ur O2 WILL throw off AFRs if its getting too old or dirty or got damaged or something...

      if the seals in a HPFP were leaking, it would leak into the head of the engine.. not into the cylinders... so... how would that throw off the readings in the exhaust???

      on a normal car, your supposed to change the O2's every 60k miles or so... these engines are insanely dirty and run incredibly rich 24/7 so i have no doubt they will foul out O2 sensors much faster. hell, when i installed my exhaust, it was pitch black with soot in less than 40 miles and i have to use a BRILLO PAD to scrub my bumper once a week to keep it from turning black and brown...

      hell, he could be running rich because of a faulty injector, his EGTs are too high and its dumping fuel in there or any other number of things. when a sensor or reading is off, it throws alot of other things off. a little problem could make itself seem alot bigger than it really is.

      and the guy already has a HPFP, and it works.... its still allowing him to boost all he wants, so its pressuring and delivering just fine.

      i just dont see why every time there is even the most minute opportunity to pitch a sale, some company jumps on it like a fat kid dives into Willy Wonka's chocolate river!

      we know stuff is on sale... there are tons of threads on it, and even more from the other companies who "distribute" them as well. we get it... its on sale... we noticed.

      2006 Audi A3 | 2.0T | 6MT | APR Stage 2+ | Fully loaded ECU | FK grill | EJ CAI | BSH TBP |EJ DV Reloc. | Eurojet TBE | EuroJet Catch Tank | Cross drilled and Slotted Rotors | EBC "Redstuff" Kevlar | Raceland Coilovers | Forge Side to Side Short Shifter | Forge Front to Back Short Shifter | Devil's Own DVC-30 Methanol injection | BSH RSB | BSH Motor mount Kit | 42 DD Shifter Bushings | HPFP Stage 1 upgrade |

    35. 12-10-2009 07:01 PM #35
      I could boost just fine when my hpfp started to go... then it turned violent, terrible idle quality, backfiring out exhaust (flames) etc... etc... but on the highway it was pretty good as far as driveability. I still say to the OP, swap out the aftermarket hpfp for a stock hpfp then change the oil & tell us how the car is.
      Sold the VAG COM

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