Switching to Bike Carbs. Heres a write up!

[FROZEN337]

As far as the carbs working or not . . . Before my distributor took a dump, my set up was working great!

I'll see if I have a vid of it running and once I get my new camera figured out, I'll get more pics up.

[GoFaster]

Quote, originally posted by 86Franklin »

im pretty sure those are side draft carbs just with the bowls titled because of the orientation and clearance of the motor in the yamaha bike. in fact im pretty positive most bike carbs are side draft, the only ones that may not be side draft are from boxer engine style bikes such as old gold wings or bmw bike.

Perhaps, that is all well and good, but I am absolutely one hundred percent sure *that* bike has them in the downdraft orientation!! All Yamaha sport bikes following the "Genesis" layout of the early FZR's (started late 1980's) have the carbs in a downdraft orientation.

If someone else has already validated that these carbs will work in a side-draft orientation then it's all good. You might have to muck around with float levels ... but you are going to have to muck around with jets and needles anyway.

[FROZEN337]

Bogg Bros uses the R1 carbs because they will work in almost any position, down, side, backwards, over the river . . . My car was running awesome for a few days till my distributor stopped doing its job. You can google search and find them on VWs, old Toyotas, mazdas and a bunch more. Search youtube and there are a bunch of videos too AND the last PVW I bought has a MKI with a 16V running them . . .

A write up about bike carbs and Bogg Bros . . .
http://www.totalvauxhall.co.uk...7.pdf

[FROZEN337]

Got my pics up . . .
nothing to drool over, yet!

What I used for my cable ends

OE MKI choke cable

Holley and gauge

pick up on to sync your carbs on the cheap!

MKII cluster in and working

"John Milner" inspired gauge set up!

and my lazy helper . . .



Modified by FROZEN337 at 5:14 PM 12-29-2009

[86Franklin]

ooo whats the red button for on the center console

my set up. not done.

[Miami Blue]

Wow frozen this looks great! It is looking like i will have to ghetto rig my throttle cable till i can figure out where to get some cable stops like those, it looks great! I went to the yamaha dealership looking for longer adjusters but they didnt have any, i figure i could just move the cable stopps....

My air filters will be here tomorrow, ill post some pictures of what i have done and give a little more detail.

Thursday night im driving in to the garage, i wont drive out till i have carbs

[FROZEN337]

Red button is for the wideband, L.E.D. is there too. I'll have to get a pic of my ghetto rigged fan switch (huge nawz style switch!)

You should be able to get the cable ends at any auto parts store or google "help 03336 cable stops" they will be there!

[Miami Blue]

Thanks man, just ordered some, the wont be here till next week though. Ill just fashion up some temp ones for now. I am super excited about these things, this is my last obstical as far as i know.

[FROZEN337]

Quote, originally posted by 86Franklin »

Sweet manifold, is it steel or aluminium? I have a second flange that I want to build up as my "nice" manifold at some point, after my extra head is finished!

[86Franklin]

steel i wish i could have afforded aluminum

[YJSAABMAN]

Quote, originally posted by FROZEN337 »

"John Milner" inspired gauge set up!

For the Milner reference! Got the Graffitti and More Graffitti 2 disc set for x-mas!

Stuff's looking good, guys. My setup is going to be way more old school than these, if I can get it all sorted. Need a piece of aluminum to make a mounting flange for the carbs to start the manifold mockup and then I can finish the alt bracket. Here's a pic of my old-school induction. Sorry, it's a crappy cell phone pic.

More pics when there's something worth posting!

[Dave926]

I tried running the carbs, first some old mikuni's then some R1 carbs. Never got it to run right and went digi 2.

Old thread in the sig.....I wish I wasn't so rushed when I did mine. My next car I will carb it.

If anyone here wants some R1 carbs IM me....I even got the drill bits for the main jets

[FROZEN337]

I wish I knew more about carbs on the 16V, but I dont. I plan on building a R1/16V in a rabbit some day . . . I say try again! It has taken me over two years to get where the car is now, time and money . . .

[mauzer76]

I've been following this thread since the 3rd post and I'm happy to see where it has gone I'm currently converting my fiancees '83 GTI from CIS to carbs. I have a Magnum Flow intake and a single Weber 32/36 progressive for daily driving and I'll be getting a manifold fabricated for a nice set of old school Mikunis for more pep on the right days

These are late '70's- early 80's carbs, so there's alot of polish-able surfaces. About to take 'em apart for a re-jet/re-build/detail. My question is this: How are people blocking off the injector ports? I'm running a counter-flow 8v with CIS. I've read of people using tranny plugs, even placing pennies/nickels in the port, filling with silicon/JB weld and replacing the injector bushing. I've also read of fabbing the manifold to just cover them over... anyone had success with either of these methods?


Modified by mauzer76 at 12:46 PM 1-2-2010

[Miami Blue]

Hey Guys! Ill do up a detailed post tomorrow but i just wanted to let everyone know.... SHE LIVESSSSSS! I was driving it around today, its running like a champ!

FROZEN, please dont get discouraged! I am amazed at how well this went for me. What symptoms were you having?

Modified by Miami Blue at 11:48 PM 1-2-2010

[Flyingsheep]

No way man, post everything...

[FROZEN337]

I miss that sound! If it wasnt low 10's out, I would go start mine! I might try anyway!!

Good stuff, hows it run? Need to tune it much?

[Miami Blue]

I initally had the idle mixture set at the Bogg Brothers recomended point. When i first started it it would only run with the choke on, so i made the mixture a little richer, now it runs without choke perfectly. Its jetted at 1.83mm right now, im not quite as fast as i was with the CIS so i may drill them a little bigger, or leave it and see what type of mpg's i get.

Detailed post with pic's still coming later

[Miami Blue]

Thurday night:

As soon as i got off school i headed home, and parked the Caddy in the garage. Started out looking like this:

First thing there was on the list to do was get the cooling system all squared away. I was hoping that all i was going to have to do was put the hose I made on and call it good. Sadly... it was more complicated than that. When i went to test fit the carbs, the radiator and fan position didnt allow enough clearance.

What i had to end up doing was angle the radiator so that on the carburetor side it was hiding under the rad support. I also had to take off me pancake fans and go back to the single fan from my 77 rabbit. Once i got all of this done it was about three in the morning, and i called it a night.

New hose on, before i had test fitted the carbs and realized that the current set up wouldnt work:

First test fitting of the carbs, filters had to be squished to go in there and were touching one of the fans:

Lightbulb turned on in my head when i realized i could angle the rad:

Cooling system complete:

Friday:

First thing i did was run the fuel lines. I ended up having to run them a different way because i didnt realize the pressure regulator wasnt a bypass regulator. If you are going to be doing this swap and using the stock CIS fuel pump, get a BYPASS REGULATOR. I was able to use my curent one temporarily, till i can save up for a bypass regulator. Ill take pictures and explain it tomorrow.

The reason i ran the fuel lines in the way pictured, on the driver side of the engine compartment, was so that if i couldnt get the carbs going i could just plug my CIS back in. This car is my daily so i had to make sure one way or the other i could drive it to school monday. Now that the carbs work, ill plum the fuel lines on the passenger side so that the engine compartment will be cleaner.

The fuel filter should be before the regulator but i wanted to be sure that nothing was coming from any of my plumbing.

Also check out the oil dipstick... To be able to get to it with the carbs on a had to bend the guide tube. I just did it carefully by hand.

First time i ran the fuel lines:

Next it was time to bolt on the manifold. I must say i did a pretty nice job on it, it bolted right up:

Notice I used a bit of foam air filter material to shove in to all of the vents on the carbs so that nothing but air can get in. First fitment of the carbs:

Saturday:

It was finally time to fire it up! I let the lines fill up with fuel by making the pump cycle a couple times, then turned the choke on... Vrooommmm! Fired right up! I let it warm up for a minute and then turned the choke off, but the engine died. My thought process was that choke richens the fuel mixture and the engine will only run with it on, so i enrichened the idle mixture screws and it fired right up with choke off. Be sure that when your adjusting idle mixture screws only go in small amounts and go the same amount on every carb. After i did this the engine was smoking a little so i leaned out the mixture till it didnt smoke any more.

Then for the first drive It drove great for a while then it would die. As soon as i would let the fuel pump cycle a couple times it would start right back up, drive for a while, and then die again. The issue was that i wasnt getting anough fuel pressure to the carbs and the float bowls were drying up faster than they could be refilled. The cause of the problem was my non return regulator. Which is why i suggest that you USE A BYPASS REGULATOR if you are going to be using the CIS pump. Like i said, i was able to temporarily fix my problem, but will be switching to a bypass regulator. As soon as i did the fix, the engine runs smoothly all of the time. Mission accomplished!

Final result:

Final result: My car runs properly now. No fluctuating idle, no cranking for thirty seconds before it starts, and it sounds beautiful I am VERY happy with the result. It all seemed a little too easy!

There are a couple more posts still to come:
Throttle and choke cable explaination.
MPG's and thoughts on furter jetting.
Synching the carbs.
PROPER plumbing of fuel lines.
I think thats it...

If anyone has any questions about running these carbs i am happy to help! Bike carbs CAN be run successfully!


Modified by Miami Blue at 10:27 PM 1-3-2010

[jeosh]

would you say they are realiable enough, when tuned up good, to be driven daily??

im currently building a 16v r-1 rabbit and have hopes of driving it as my daily during the summer months ( in canada may- september ish )

[Miami Blue]

This IS my daily man! My CIS had issues so i switched to these, and now it runs perfectly, nice and smooth. Its been pretty chilly at nights here (for AZ), and it still starts right up.

[Flyingsheep]

How is throttle response? Power band? You said the CIS setup had a little bit more power, but where at? Do the carbs still feel different as far as power band or throttle response goes?

[YJSAABMAN]

Going to be running an Aeromotive bypass regulator on mine. Far from cheap, but I know my CIS pump was replaced just before the 1.7L died, the return line and everything is still there, etc. Great info throughout this thread.

[Miami Blue]

Throttle is very responsive due to the throttle plates being much larger combined than the origional throttle plates combined. I made sure to pay attention to my power band today, it actually feels very even from take off to the top end.

The reason i am slower is that i haven done any tuning past what i can do by listening to the engine. I still need to hook up my air fuel meter and jet the carbs, im sure its running a little lean right now.

The Aeromotive Regulator is the exact one i want!

[impulse byer]

Great job and great wright up Get a wideband in there trust me it makes tuning so much easier and safer for your motor...and wallet

Is that a widebody Gen II RX-7? pic's?

[Miami Blue]

Wideband will certainly come when i can afford it, they may have one at school that i can use now that i think about it.

And yes good eye man! My room mate has building that car FOREVER! Widebody FC, he is putting a turbo ls3 in it. I want him to finish it so i can get a ride! Some day i may need to build one to go along with my rabbit


Modified by Miami Blue at 4:44 AM 1-7-2010

[FROZEN337]

Your still running the stock fuel pump? I didnt think it would work, to much pressure. Im running the Carter 4070 without the accumulator.

Thats awesome you got it going in a weekend! Mine took forever (still is!) because it started with the junk 1.7L in the car and changed more then I should have! I hope to have the new distributor from TT by the end of the month.

Do the carbs hit the rad without the fan on it? I want to run a slim fan on the front side to clean up the bay. I plan to route the fuel lines from the pass side and toss the battery in the trunk at some point too, just want it to run first!!

[86Franklin]

he may be running just the in tank fuel pump thats what i'm planning on doing. how much did your carter cost? i've thought about buying one.

[Miami Blue]

Right now im using the CIS pump, all i did was unplug the fuel hose to the CIS dizzy and plug the fpr in. After looking more in to it i have decided to get the carter fuel pump like FROZEN, it is cheaper and safer than using the CIS pump and bypass regulator.

The carbs and filters both dont hit the rad or fan shroud. There is about a centimeter of clearance between the filters and shroud. I also plan on running a slim fan on the front though to clear up space. (That will come after i get new coilovers)

[FROZEN337]

I bought my carter from summit, along with the gauge, not sure what I paid for them. You can mount the gauge on the FPR to clean thing up a bit too.

[86Franklin]

i was just wondering cause i found a few at some local stores (not carter) that were around $50. everyone on here says, thats what to use. so im just trying to figure out if its worth ordering or just going with one of the ones i found locally.

[Miami Blue]

I have thought of going to the local auto parts store to get a fuel pump but i dont know how much i can trust one of those things. I'd rather just stick to something that people have used and works for em.

If other people have used them and say they work i suppose you should give it a try!

[impulse byer]

Thats what i use CarQuest brand low pressure pump. I bought 2 just in case but have never needed the second one yet. 3 years i believe i've been running it now.

I love the Ls series of motors my next project will involve one for sure...in a 3 gen RX-7 of some sort

[Miami Blue]

You wanting to get that extra pump off your hands?

Id like to get some engineering skills and some day build a RWD LS1 Caddy. I know... non german engine in a VW... but imagine catching EVERYONE off guard!

[FROZEN337]

I went through 2 cheaper pumps before the carter, 1 off ebay, rotary vain like the carter, it was junk. The second was the Mr. Gasket 4-7 psi. After fueling issues with both, I bought the carter. Works awesome!