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    Thread: Switching to Bike Carbs. Heres a write up!

    1. 08-25-2012 03:04 PM #1436
      In relation to the fueling issue, I have been contemplating the effect of atmospheric pressure on the numerous vents on the carbs, on the stock setup they were vented into the air box generating negative pressure under acceleration, I've consitered a passive emmisions system in which a vented oil catch can (possably containing charcol) accumulates and vents into the intake through a port in a coupling between the air filter and carbs.
      Has anyone had any issues regarding pressure diffrences in the ventaliation on the carbs??
      Should I worry about this?
      I've heard some say to block them which sounds foolish.

    2. 08-25-2012 03:15 PM #1437
      Quote Originally Posted by bmwquick View Post
      Idle and WOT switches. Can someone please tell me how they affect ignition timing on the CIS-e knockbox setup?

      I've read the idle switch may be used to hold ignition timing steady so the idle doesn't hunt. Makes sense but what about the WOT switch?? Does it affect ignition timing at all?? I'd guess its for fuel enrichment but I'm only worried about timing.

      I fired up the car with with the knockbox setup but I dont have cooling hooked up yet so I couldn't test anything.
      Oh, ya WOT switch only has an effect after 4k or so RPM.
      My initail post to this is a bit further down stream.
      The throttle position sensor is essentaily a pointometer how can I use the stock r1 thtottle position to give my stock knock box an input that will be benifical?
      As far as basic ergonomics, the throttle position seems more practical than a jerry rigged WOT switch.
      I don't know how you would mount it.
      But if anyone does please send me a pic. I'm curious.

    3. 08-25-2012 03:32 PM #1438
      Even though this looks like a very strait forward bike to car transition this is often the work of fabrocators.
      How did you vent those vent lines?
      I think that this is a common misconsiteration.
      Those vents are there to reduce pressues even gain negative pressure as the throttle plate rises.

    4. Member 86Franklin's Avatar
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      08-25-2012 03:52 PM #1439
      Quote Originally Posted by vrally View Post
      In relation to the fueling issue, I have been contemplating the effect of atmospheric pressure on the numerous vents on the carbs, on the stock setup they were vented into the air box generating negative pressure under acceleration, I've consitered a passive emmisions system in which a vented oil catch can (possably containing charcol) accumulates and vents into the intake through a port in a coupling between the air filter and carbs.
      Has anyone had any issues regarding pressure diffrences in the ventaliation on the carbs??
      Should I worry about this?
      I've heard some say to block them which sounds foolish.
      Vents to the bowls or where? The vent to my bowls are open to the air.

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      08-30-2012 02:50 AM #1440
      Quote Originally Posted by vrally View Post
      If memory serves me well enough, it is essentaily the same as alling about 8-10k oms resistance to the coolant sensor which advances the timing and increased differential fuel pressure in the cis-e system. So yes, finding a way to keep that WOT sensor functional on a carb setup with CIS-E knock box would be benifical. Let me know how you manage to set it up if you do. I haven't got that far yet.
      It is just a switch though, you could use any switch to activate a coolant sensor resistor to the same effect and pick your level of resistance hence the level of timing advance.
      I do wonder though if there are any electronics geeks out there who could intergrate this concept into the throttle position sensor that came standard on the r1 carb set up., to generate a resistance value that equates into a desireable range of timing advance through the coolant sensor directly..
      I wonder???
      I never thouht about that. So use the throttle position sensor on the R1 carbs to provide a varying voltage to to the knockbox instead of the on/off throttle switches? That sounds really cool if its possible but I dont see how the knockbox would react to the varying voltage instead of the stock on/off throttle switches. Instead of trying to figure that out you might as well just get the MSD programable box and be done with it. If you try it please post results!


      Quote Originally Posted by vrally View Post
      In relation to the fueling issue, I have been contemplating the effect of atmospheric pressure on the numerous vents on the carbs, on the stock setup they were vented into the air box generating negative pressure under acceleration, I've consitered a passive emmisions system in which a vented oil catch can (possably containing charcol) accumulates and vents into the intake through a port in a coupling between the air filter and carbs.
      Has anyone had any issues regarding pressure diffrences in the ventaliation on the carbs??
      Should I worry about this?
      I've heard some say to block them which sounds foolish.
      The only setup I've seen that were not vented to atmo were turbo setups which have the float bowl and diaphram vents hooked to manifold pressure. That way fueling stays consistent with boost pressure. I left mine open and will probably ziptie something breahable around them. I wouldn't plug them. See here:http://www.turbo-bike.net/Pressurize%20carbs.htm
      Need a 16V manifold flange to build your custom carb intake mani!?! I can get you one laser-cut for $85 shipped!!! PM me!

    6. 08-30-2012 11:11 AM #1441
      Quote Originally Posted by 20v_boost View Post
      Am I seeing this right? You've got a vacuum line coming off of cylinder #4, then the check valve, then your vacuum line to the distributor? With this setup the distributor will always see high vacuum, even when you are at WOT! Does this work for you?

      -Alex
      It runs pretty good the only issue that im having right now is when i come to a stop or go to shift when i push the clutch in it revs its self pretty high not sure what todo about it any suggestions would be nice

    7. 08-30-2012 03:20 PM #1442
      What timing are you running? With it plumbed the way you have it, you'll always be running the full vacuum advance. Do your carbs have a vacuum port just before the throttle plates?

      The revving when coming to a stop sounds like you're getting unwanted air into the engine. Are your throttle plates closing all the way like they should? I don't have any carb experience, I run MS.

      -Alex

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      08-30-2012 03:36 PM #1443
      Too much timing advance will do that

    9. 08-31-2012 01:37 AM #1444
      I'm not sure what I'm running for timeing I set it till it ran right the carbs are off a 99 Yamaha r1 I only tapped the 4th runner and ran vacuum off of there is there a better way to run vacuum?

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      08-31-2012 01:44 AM #1445
      Speaking of timing. I'm getting my car dyno tuned in the next few weeks.
      Last edited by rysskii3; 08-31-2012 at 02:07 AM.
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      08-31-2012 07:13 AM #1446
      Quote Originally Posted by rysskii3 View Post
      Speaking of timing. I'm getting my car dyno tuned in the next few weeks.
      Make sure you post up the results!!

      Does anyone know the ideal fuel flow rate? My carter died last night I'd like to pick up a pump locally today. Probably won't find a 4070.

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      08-31-2012 06:17 PM #1447
      does your car have an in tank pump stock? Because that is all I use (89 gti 16v) and I made 138 whp with it, and was not starved for fuel at all.

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      08-31-2012 06:25 PM #1448
      I took it out, I have it somewhere this car was a digi2 8v I'm not sure how similar the pump is to yours.
      I picked up a Mr.gasket pump from advanced auto today. Hopefully it holds up

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      08-31-2012 07:49 PM #1449
      Quote Originally Posted by oldschool eighty8 View Post
      I took it out, I have it somewhere this car was a digi2 8v I'm not sure how similar the pump is to yours.
      I picked up a Mr.gasket pump from advanced auto today. Hopefully it holds up
      I am using the OEM 8v intank pump that delivers fuel to the Carter pump, which is located in the OEM main pump location. So far so good. No fuel return line from fpr.
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    15. Member yeayeayea's Avatar
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      09-01-2012 02:00 PM #1450
      Quote Originally Posted by rysskii3 View Post
      I am using the OEM 8v intank pump that delivers fuel to the Carter pump, which is located in the OEM main pump location. So far so good. No fuel return line from fpr.
      was your 8v cis or digi? because the digi in tank pumps are higher pressure than the cis in tank pumps, since the cis had a second, external hi pressure pump.

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      09-01-2012 03:11 PM #1451
      Quote Originally Posted by yeayeayea View Post
      was your 8v cis or digi? because the digi in tank pumps are higher pressure than the cis in tank pumps, since the cis had a second, external hi pressure pump.
      Pretty sure it was a digi. I bought the car with 16 already swapped but all fueling was from an 8v. It was a regular 90 golf gl
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      09-01-2012 06:01 PM #1452
      Quote Originally Posted by yeayeayea View Post
      was your 8v cis or digi? because the digi in tank pumps are higher pressure than the cis in tank pumps, since the cis had a second, external hi pressure pump.
      Digi has two pumps as well. Also to the person using the mr. Gasket pump, it will run fine until you get on it under load. It will starve the bowls. I found flow charts and the Mr gasket pump flow 45 gph at 5 psi while a holley red and carter 4070 flows something like 70 gph at 5 psi.

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      09-14-2012 08:36 PM #1453
      Quote Originally Posted by oldschool eighty8 View Post
      Make sure you post up the results!!

      Does anyone know the ideal fuel flow rate? My carter died last night I'd like to pick up a pump locally today. Probably won't find a 4070.
      Getting the car dyno tuned on Tuesday by a Carb specialty shop. Super excited.
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    19. Member rysskii3's Avatar
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      09-20-2012 12:11 AM #1454
      Quote Originally Posted by rysskii3 View Post
      Getting the car dyno tuned on Tuesday by a Carb specialty shop. Super excited.
      Got the carbs tuned today. Before the numbers, it was 90 degrees outside the shop and even hotter inside. After many many runs all day long, the very last run was the one they gave me figures of. Main jets are set at 2.0 and timing at wot is about +30-+40 degrees. A little bit of pinging was present with 91 octane fuel, but the tune was made mainly to run 100 octane race fuel. Lastly, the dyno was dyno dynamics. It is a very conservative dyno and is a heart breaker.
      Car made 136.2 whp and 130 toque at the wheels. The torque curve is pretty much linear from 2800 to about 5800.
      Temp was 89°F.
      Last edited by rysskii3; 09-21-2012 at 06:14 PM.
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      09-21-2012 03:57 AM #1455
      Quote Originally Posted by rysskii3 View Post
      Got the carbs tuned today. Before the numbers, it was 90 degrees outside the shop and even hotter inside. After many many runs all day long, the very last run was the one they gave me figures of. Main jets are set at 2.0 and timing at wot is about +30-+40 degrees. A little bit of pinging was present with 91 octane fuel, but the tune was made mainly to run 100 octane race fuel. Lastly, the dyno was dyno dynamics. It is a very conservative dyno and is a heart breaker.
      Car made 136.2 who and 127 toque at the wheels. The torque curve is pretty much linear from 2800 to about 5800.
      Not bad! Could you post the graph? I'd like to see how the hp and tq curves look. Does it feel like you lost some low end torque compared to stock?? It sure feels like mine did although i'm not yet finished tuning them 100%.
      Need a 16V manifold flange to build your custom carb intake mani!?! I can get you one laser-cut for $85 shipped!!! PM me!

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      09-21-2012 10:20 AM #1456
      I didn't drive the car much to feel if I lost power down low, but overall the car feels great and its a little faster than before. My next step is going to be another dyno (dynojet) with race fuel.
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      09-21-2012 06:13 PM #1457
      Quote Originally Posted by rysskii3 View Post
      I didn't drive the car much to feel if I lost power down low, but overall the car feels great and its a little faster than before. My next step is going to be another dyno (dynojet) with race fuel.
      Im guessing you do not have cams?

      My peak hp was made at 6500 rpm, autotech street cams. I made 138 with my 1,8, you definitely have some more power to squeek out of your 2.0 (I know you said it was a heart breaker dyno in your thread)



      The actual dyno, but in MPH instead of rpm

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      09-21-2012 06:15 PM #1458
      Quote Originally Posted by yeayeayea View Post
      Im guessing you do not have cams?

      My peak hp was made at 6500 rpm, autotech street cams. I made 138 with my 1,8, you definitely have some more power to squeek out of your 2.0 (I know you said it was a heart breaker dyno in your thread)

      I have TT euro cams with sight p&p. The temp was 89 during the dyno. I think I'll hit 150-160 with cooler temps and on a dynojet. The guy that tuned my car has been working with carbs for over 30 years and confidently told me that I can make more power with fully adjustable ignition set up. Something like MSD midget.
      Last edited by rysskii3; 09-21-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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    24. 09-21-2012 10:32 PM #1459
      I bought a set of 02 r1 itbs, I was wondering why I "have" to run a standalone system? I was planning on splicing in the tps, injectors, and a few other wires. I was also planning on running a fuel filter and fpr in bay.

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      09-22-2012 12:10 AM #1460
      You have to run a standalone system because stock vw management has no provisions for a MAP sensor (aside from digi1 and 1.8t and newer management).

      Vw's use MAF's, which require the volume of all of the air to be metered, not just the pressure of all the air to be metered.

    26. 09-22-2012 12:38 AM #1461
      Will it even run without the standalone but like crap? And is the MSD Ignition 6201 a good one to use? Kinda on a budget and I am not trying to spend a lot of money on just a standalone.

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      09-22-2012 02:41 AM #1462
      Quote Originally Posted by 90cabriolet98gti2.0 View Post
      Will it even run without the standalone but like crap? And is the MSD Ignition 6201 a good one to use? Kinda on a budget and I am not trying to spend a lot of money on just a standalone.
      6201 will work fine. Along with that, you will need rpm adapter, and maybe a few little things.
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    28. 09-22-2012 02:54 PM #1463
      I think I read in your thread you had to use the rpm adapter, do you still have the part number? And do you mind elaborating on the few little things, I can't find a thread for itbs just found carbs.

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      09-22-2012 05:37 PM #1464
      Quote Originally Posted by 90cabriolet98gti2.0 View Post
      I think I read in your thread you had to use the rpm adapter, do you still have the part number? And do you mind elaborating on the few little things, I can't find a thread for itbs just found carbs.
      i dont have part number. if you look through this thread, then you will find that i bought one and it was the wrong one, then i bought the second one that worked. the part numbers are listed here somewhere.
      a few things can be anything that will require you to finish the project. it can be spark plugs, wires, fuel lines and so on.
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    30. 09-22-2012 09:12 PM #1465
      Ok thanks. Ok I have all new ones of those thanks for elaborating I didn't know if I had missed some info in the thread.

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      09-23-2012 10:35 AM #1466
      Quote Originally Posted by 90cabriolet98gti2.0 View Post
      Ok thanks. Ok I have all new ones of those thanks for elaborating I didn't know if I had missed some info in the thread.
      this is the setup i have right now. ignition box, start/retard, oem ICM, and rpm adapter (not shown).
      the few other things can also include wire splicing kit, electrical tape, heat shrink and ya. well you get the point. little things add up at the end.
      Last edited by rysskii3; 09-23-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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    32. 09-23-2012 01:36 PM #1467
      Thanks for the pic that will help a lot. Do I have to have the start/retard one too or is that just for simplicity of tuning?

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      09-23-2012 04:43 PM #1468
      Quote Originally Posted by 90cabriolet98gti2.0 View Post
      Thanks for the pic that will help a lot. Do I have to have the start/retard one too or is that just for simplicity of tuning?
      This timing control is the direct result of MSD being at the races and listening to what racers want. With the large number of engines running locked-out timing, racers wanted a simple way to retard the timing during cranking plus have a single stage of retard available for high rpm or nitrous.The Start/Retard Control lets you choose either 10° or 25° of retard during cranking only. The timing will retard only while cranking and returns to the set mechanical timing once the engine starts and you release the key or until the engine reaches 1,300 rpm.Along with the start retard feature, this Control also has a single stage of retard. This retard can be activated when nitrous is in use to prevent detonation or at high rpm to achieve a little more top end. The amount of retard is adjustable with plug-in modules and is activated by a single wire that can be connected directly to a nitrous solenoid or a micro switch on the shifter.The Start/Retard Control is easy to install and program and is supplied with 2°, 3° and 4° modules. It must be used with an MSD 6, SCI, 7, 8 or 10 Ignition Control.
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    34. 09-23-2012 10:17 PM #1469
      Ok thanks I will just stick with the 6201 and the tach adapter. Thanks for the help and info.

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      09-23-2012 10:51 PM #1470
      Quote Originally Posted by 90cabriolet98gti2.0 View Post
      Ok thanks I will just stick with the 6201 and the tach adapter. Thanks for the help and info.
      thats a good start, but how are you going to manage the ignition timing? are you going to use vacuum distributor? if not, then start retard box may be essential for when you are trying to start the cold car. also, a timing control box is a VERY good idea. I need one of those ASAP.
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