W12 Transmission problems

[Panterius]

Hello all, ive been reading the forum for quite a while and now I am making my first post. I recently purchased an 04 Phaeton W12 and have recently been having some transmission problems and hope some of you may be able to help. When warm the transmission runs flawlessly , but first thing in the morning(when cold) I am getting slippage between first and second gear when it will actually thump into second from first. I have taken the car to my local VW dealership and they are getting no fault codes from the transmission module when they scan it. Any Ideas?
Mark

[Jxander]

Mark:

Without fault codes VW is unlikely to want to spend their money(I'm assuming you have a CPO warranty) on the problem unless you can demonstrate to their satisfaction that the transmission is severely flawed. As a start, I would let your dealer keep it overnight and drive it while it is dead cold. Hopefully it will replicate your concern for them. At this point you can discuss with them the options and what they will pay for and what you will be responsible for.

Since it shifts flawlessly when warm, I would doubt the transmission is toast. To me the options would be
1. Multiple drains of ATF fluid and a change of the filter.
2. New(rebuilt) mechatronic unit combined with number 1.
3. Entire new transmission(not likely?)

If you are under warranty it may be hard to get option 1 paid for. If it is option 2 or 3 and VW agrees, the warranty should cover it.

Michael changed his ATF fluid and filter on his W12 as a preventative measure. Maybe he can help you out a bit.

I had a 1988 BMW 750 with a 4 speed ZF transmission that did exactly what you describe for my entire 9 years of ownership. If it makes you feel better, it never got worse but it didn''t get better either. I didn't repair it since the car was so old and had almost 200k miles on it. However, your W12 deserves much better.

Good luck.

[remrem]

Hi Mark and Jim,

In case you haven't seen it, or received it in the mail, you might want to take a look at this thread regarding a change in VW's position on transmission fluid changes for the W12 Phaeton:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3841748

It seems to have gotten buried over time, but as you can see they now recommend changing the fluid every 20,000 miles. Mark, do you know how long it's been, if ever, since the fluid was replaced? Hopefully Jim's #1 suggestion will do the trick. Good luck.

Ron

[PanEuropean]

Hi Mark:

Welcome to the forum. There are more W12 Phaetons per capita in the Victoria, BC area than anywhere else on this planet, including Dresden.

I live (and work) in Sidney, Jeff lives in Metchosin (both of us drive W12s) and there are about 4 more Phaetons, 2 of which are W12s, in the greater Victoria area.

So, send me an email (click on my username to the left to reveal my email address) and we can get together, I will have a look at your car and see what is up.

For service, Speedway in Victoria is absolutely superb. The Phaeton specialist technician there is Chris Lamborn, he is an absolute wizard of Phaetons. Normally Michelle (service adviser) looks after all of us, but she left on maternity leave last Friday and will be gone till the summer. So, speak to Stacy (the Porsche - Audi service adviser), she is looking after all of the Phaeton owners until Michelle returns.

Note also that we (the Victoria area owners) have established our own protocols about dropping the car off for service - I will have to look around somewhere and find the thread that explains it, but, basically, you drop the car off when you go out of town for business or holidays, and leave it at the shop for a week or so. This lets Chris have all the time he needs to order parts, function test it, tweak things until they are just perfect, etc.

Michael

[Panterius]

Thanks all for your help. My car is now at a specialty transmission shop and I have decided to go with a fluid flush and refill and see if that helps. I spoke with the technician working on my car this afternoon and he told me that while examining the tranny he found an electrical socket on the side of the transmission with the electrical plug loose. Maybe part of the problem?
Mark

[Jxander]

Mark:

Very possible if the connection was only loose. However, since you only experienced problems when transmission was cold, it could only be the problem if better electrical contact occured when it warmed up. I guess that's possible if the poor connection was positively affected by increased temperature.

Nevertheless it sounds like you're likely to have a fix soon and the transmission flush will be good for longevity even if it were not immediately necessary.

[PanEuropean]

Hi Mark:

There is a very thorough 'how-to' explaining how to change transmission fluid on W12 vehicles at this post: Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level . The car used is my own W12, thanks are due to the great service team at Volkswagen Richmond Hill for their help making this post.

Note also that there has been a technical bulletin published about the torque values for the sump pan on W12 transmissions. This TB came out in 2005, basically, it asked for a very small increase in torque settings on the sump pan bolts to prevent fluid weeping out from the seal. I have attached it to this post. There is only one paragraph on page 4 that speaks to the torque of the transmission sump pan fasteners - the rest of it has to do with something else.

I most strongly recommend that you have the staff at the transmission shop replace all the same parts that I replaced (gaskets, seals, filters, etc. - when I took the photos, I made sure to show all the part numbers). The total cost of all the parts, and all the fluid, was about $400.

Also - I cannot stress this enough - it is absolutely, positively, CRITICAL that the transmission be filled with the correct specification of fluid. Quite recently (last few days) I posted a note from ZF, the manufacturers of the transmission, where they listed the specifications of fluid. Who makes the fluid is not really important, but complying with the spec is life or death for the transmission. Think of it as if it was filling the gas tank instead - it's not really critical if you buy Esso, Shell, or no-name fuel, but it is life or death whether you pump gasoline or diesel or propane or LNG into the fuel tank.

The transmission shop can order the exact specification of fluid from VW if they wish (via Speedway's parts department) - it will cost between $300 and $400 for the fluid. Or, they might have compliant fluid on hand. Just make sure that you see the label on the container of the fluid that they have used, and you then verify that it is on the list of fluid that meets the specification for this particular transmission.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

Archival Note: Tangentally related discussion about W12 transmissions (not exactly dead-on topic, but might be of interest): click here.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

For the record: Here is a flowchart that explains the process for refilling the 5HP-24 transmission used in the W12 Phaeton. I have annotated it with notes (the yellow pop-up balloons) based on my own personal experience doing this job.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

For the record (again): Attached is a very explicit warning from Volkswagen to make sure you use the correct specification of fluid when adding or changing fluid.

It's impossible to over-emphasize this. Forum history has taught us that in the majority of cases where Phaeton owners (V8 or W12) had serious transmission problems, wrong fluid was a contributing factor.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

And, finally - here is a copy of the amendment to the preventative maintenance schedule that VW mailed out to all W12 owners at the beginning of 2008. It mandates replacement of the fluid in the 5HP-24 transmission every 20,000 miles (30,000 km).

Michael

[Panterius]

Thanks Michael, I have downloaded the PDF files and forwarded them to the tech working on my car.
Mark

[Panterius]

Hello all,got my car back from the transmission shop this past Wednesday they did a hot flush of the unit, installed new filters, gasgets and seals, repaired the leak at the rear output shaft and filled it with new approved VW transmission fluid. The result, the car now runs flawlessly, regardless of being warm or ice cold(its been cold here last few mornings). So whether the problem was caused by A: low fluid orB: contaminated fluid I do not know, but the problem has been rectified.
Mark

[Jxander]

Mark:

Great to hear everything worked out. Now you can enjoy the smooth shifts and turbine smooth W12 engine.

[PanEuropean]

Hi Mark:

What is the name of the transmission shop you used? A place like that is worth knowing about!

Michael

[mr matharu]

hello all w12 owners i am typing from uk england and am most likely going to buy a w12 phaeton tomm the guy selling the veichle has listed a problem with the transmission box he has stated that the transmission takes a bit of time to select the drive gear after the shifter has been selected to drive anyone know what causes this? could it be a lack of oil change?? the car has covered 57 000miles

[invisiblewave]

Don't touch it.

[Prince Ludwig]

Or budget £2.5-3k for a gearbox rebuild.

Harry

[EnglishPhaeton]

Car is on eBay, potential big money pit.

Stu

[invisiblewave]

I guess if you can afford the fuel to run it, a few grand on a new gearbox isn't a big deal. At the price listed, even with the gearbox issue, it looks like a steal to me. I'd book it in at Dortmund, then hand over my greenbacks on Ebay!

[Paximus]

It might have been towing (not supported on W12), there seems to be a horse box connection in there somewhere...

I was vaguely tempted myself, just to have a play, but the interior isn't my first choice.

Chris

[mr matharu]

thats the thing i need to set a bit of money to the side i dont really want someone elses trouble plus the back lights broken

[Paximus]

Hi,

If you want an easy low cost life, I would recommend that you don't buy an '04 with known problems.

I'm not saying that the vendor might not be disclosing all the known problems, but say (for instance) there's a hidden suspension strut problem, that could cost thousands on an '04, not quite so bad on an '05 or later.

Or an issue on some engine sensor - the engine might have to come out at a couple of thousand. Wait to find out before you book it in for the new gearbox!

On the other hand, if you love the W12 Phaeton and put aside double the difference between the low sale price and the book price 'just in case' you will probably have a lot of fun with it.

Good luck,
Chris

[stefanuk]

I've just had a look at the ad for the car......................i can see the broken rear light, i also note that the gear lever is left in the sport position and not park or neutral and have to wonder why that is.........personally i'd walk away from this car as there will be others out there in a better condition.

Stefan

[EnglishPhaeton]

Also the near side rear wing is a mess!

Methinks we might get to know this car and its future owner quite well

Stu

[Paximus]

Especially since there are probably only about a dozen '04 W12s in the country...