Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 35 of 41

    Thread: Modifying o2a/j Clutch fork for high RPM shifting...

    1. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      11-30-2009 09:09 PM #1
      So since i had a spare one laying around i decided to try strengthening it up some...this included quenching it after each weld.


      I wanted to try something different from the typical plate that most people weld on top. I had a friend that bought one modified like that and it contacted the pressure plate.


      Anyway without further ado...









    2. Senior Member vdubspeed's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 18th, 2002
      Location
      Valdosta, GA
      Posts
      20,861
      Vehicles
      I quit counting.
      12-01-2009 07:27 PM #2
      very nice. I'm lost though. Why do they need strengthing? What makes them bend? Stiff pressure plates? Why would high RPM shifting weaken them.
      Built > Bought
      58 Beetle | 79 Rabbit 20vT | 81 Caddy | 84 GTI TDI |84 GTI 16vT |12 Golf TDI ----99 QCSB Ram Cummins | 02 Burb 4x4 2500 | 03 Cobra

    3. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-04-2009 06:19 PM #3
      yes the higher pressure plate pressures cause them to flex and at high rpm centrifugal force forces the fingers out thus putting more stress on the clutch fork. So at high rpms full disengagement is very problematic making shifting a PITA.

    4. Member GTijoejoe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 5th, 2001
      Location
      OH
      Posts
      6,934
      Vehicles
      '98 GTi, '06 Evo Mr, '13 Accord v6, '13 CBR500r
      12-04-2009 08:10 PM #4
      That should make it pretty darn stiff
      2.0T+034efi+meth = 300+whp = Part out PM me for anything

    5. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-04-2009 08:21 PM #5
      yea but what sucked is there truly isnt chit for clearance in the o2j bellhousing...i had to grind down part of both sides (and all i did was at 1/16th to both sides!) to clear the bolts inside the bellhousing and part of the casting but still should suffice *hopefully* ill get some pics of it later.

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 5th, 2003
      Location
      Farmingdale, NY 11735
      Posts
      10,405
      Vehicles
      1987 VW GTI, 2001 Audi TT
      12-06-2009 09:55 AM #6
      Very nice.
      It would be nice to see a product like this come out for the community that was produced on some CNC machines with some steel billet stock. It wouldn't take more than a day to fab up a vise and a couple jigs rough cut both sides and then set up for the finish cuts.
      Mine: '87 GTI 8vT, '01 TT 180Q
      Hers: '01 GTI 1.8t
      Retired: '98 Ranger 4x4, '01 Catera, '90 GLI 16vT, '94 850 Turbo, '90 Golf, '89 Golf, '90 Mustang LX, '91 Jetta, '88 9000S, '86 Jetta, '91 Continental

    7. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-06-2009 10:24 PM #7
      Quote, originally posted by L33t A2 »
      Very nice.
      It would be nice to see a product like this come out for the community that was produced on some CNC machines with some steel billet stock. It wouldn't take more than a day to fab up a vise and a couple jigs rough cut both sides and then set up for the finish cuts.

      shhhh

    8. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 5th, 2003
      Location
      Farmingdale, NY 11735
      Posts
      10,405
      Vehicles
      1987 VW GTI, 2001 Audi TT
      12-07-2009 01:17 AM #8
      i am willing and able to do such work, god forbid we make some profit
      Mine: '87 GTI 8vT, '01 TT 180Q
      Hers: '01 GTI 1.8t
      Retired: '98 Ranger 4x4, '01 Catera, '90 GLI 16vT, '94 850 Turbo, '90 Golf, '89 Golf, '90 Mustang LX, '91 Jetta, '88 9000S, '86 Jetta, '91 Continental

    9. 12-07-2009 06:28 AM #9
      It would be pretty tough to improve on this with a made from scratch part. I personally would laser cut 4130, stamp or brake form, TIG and heat treat for wear resistance. I would need a 200 pc order. Judging by Quenton's comments, I don't think the envelop shape would allow the required 40% increase in area to use aluminum so CNC would be pretty costly.

      How would you do it?



    10. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 5th, 2003
      Location
      Farmingdale, NY 11735
      Posts
      10,405
      Vehicles
      1987 VW GTI, 2001 Audi TT
      12-07-2009 10:36 AM #10
      I left the machine shop I had been working at to go back and finish my bachelors degree but I didn't forget how to use the machines. Steel alloys suck to work with on the machining centers. The stock part would have to be mapped out on a blue print as well as the clearance inside the bell housing to see where material could be added to promote strength. Carbide end mills and inserts should definitely be used.
      Get some .75" steel billet plates or whatever is just thick enough to make the part, you don't want to waste time cleaning off excess material. Skim one side, then flip it over and mount it on a jig/fixture to cut out the rough shape of one side, including the hole in the center. Flip it back over and mount it on another fixture to rough cut and then finish cut that side in one long operation. Mount it on the final fixture to finish cut the first side.
      A good programmer could whip this together in a few hours as well as the inverted shapes for making the fixtures from aluminum.
      Mine: '87 GTI 8vT, '01 TT 180Q
      Hers: '01 GTI 1.8t
      Retired: '98 Ranger 4x4, '01 Catera, '90 GLI 16vT, '94 850 Turbo, '90 Golf, '89 Golf, '90 Mustang LX, '91 Jetta, '88 9000S, '86 Jetta, '91 Continental

    11. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-07-2009 06:15 PM #11
      i agree CNC'ing a part to exceed the strength of the original would be difficult to achieve...

      Below i blacked out where i had to grind the flat bar back down to base metal...


    12. 12-08-2009 02:06 PM #12
      I'm not sure I understand the quenching ... this is a mild steel part, which as far as I know, will not harden with quenching. (As opposed to high-carbon steel). That being said, it is definitely stronger with the side reenforcements. I think JUST those would be sufficient, as that is where they tend to break.
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    13. Member 2pt. slo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 4th, 2004
      Location
      Creedmoor, NC
      Posts
      5,593
      Vehicles
      98' GTI 2.0T, 12' TDI SportWagen
      12-08-2009 02:54 PM #13
      Flipside customs has made these for quite some time now.


      stock on top reinforced bottom.

      Q your welding is improving greatly. looking good man


    14. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-08-2009 04:59 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by 2pt. slo »
      Flipside customs has made these for quite some time now.


      stock on top reinforced bottom.

      yes i know

      Quote, originally posted by Quintin@USRT »

      I wanted to try something different from the typical plate that most people weld on top. I had a friend that bought one modified like that and it contacted the pressure plate.


      Quote, originally posted by 2pt. slo »

      Q your welding is improving greatly. looking good man

      Thanks!


    15. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-08-2009 05:14 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by Agtronic »
      I'm not sure I understand the quenching ... this is a mild steel part, which as far as I know, will not harden with quenching. (As opposed to high-carbon steel). That being said, it is definitely stronger with the side reenforcements. I think JUST those would be sufficient, as that is where they tend to break.


      it can be done with mild...using the right recipe http://lametalsmiths.org/news/robb_gunter.htm

      Standard quenching with water though may only just barely harden the surface.


    16. 12-08-2009 05:30 PM #16
      I don't see why Milling it from 4140 would be an issue. We machine it here all the time, cuts nice.

    17. Member GTijoejoe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 5th, 2001
      Location
      OH
      Posts
      6,934
      Vehicles
      '98 GTi, '06 Evo Mr, '13 Accord v6, '13 CBR500r
      12-08-2009 09:02 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by Passenger Performance »
      I don't see why Milling it from 4140 would be an issue. We machine it here all the time, cuts nice.

      I would agree, its not like its carbon carbon.

      IMO opinion the proper way to make this part because of clearance inside the bell housing would be to stamp it out of higher strenth steel, and/or be able to increase the thickness or change the geometry slightly (if that is possible judging by clearances)...

      This part can be easily backwards engineered, its geometry is not very complicated, although you would need to right kind of equiptment.

      2.0T+034efi+meth = 300+whp = Part out PM me for anything

    18. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-08-2009 09:30 PM #18
      there's no such thing as easy in the VW world Joe! lol

    19. 12-09-2009 12:13 PM #19
      Stamping would be ideal, but, I doubt there is enough demand to justify the custom dies. For qts under a few hundred milling them is likely your best bet, we machine 4140 lockout pins for the railway cars here, we mostly machine stainless and I find 4140 more forgiving.

    20. Member GTijoejoe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 5th, 2001
      Location
      OH
      Posts
      6,934
      Vehicles
      '98 GTi, '06 Evo Mr, '13 Accord v6, '13 CBR500r
      12-09-2009 08:11 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by Quintin@USRT »
      there's no such thing as easy in the VW world Joe! lol

      Can't argue with that

      Quote, originally posted by Passenger Performance »
      Stamping would be ideal, but, I doubt there is enough demand to justify the custom dies. For qts under a few hundred milling them is likely your best bet, we machine 4140 lockout pins for the railway cars here, we mostly machine stainless and I find 4140 more forgiving.

      I would agree, stamping would be something like +$200/part for very low volume, or something crazy like that. I've had very small brkts made that were +$100/ea. Those though were a series of forming progress and tandem dies.

      2.0T+034efi+meth = 300+whp = Part out PM me for anything

    21. Member boost_addict's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 4th, 2009
      Location
      souderton pa
      Posts
      1,917
      Vehicles
      VEMS Audi S2 , & VEMS sponsored GTI.
      12-10-2009 10:49 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by Quintin@USRT »
      i agree CNC'ing a part to exceed the strength of the original would be difficult to achieve...

      Below i blacked out where i had to grind the flat bar back down to base metal...

      Working hands.

      Fork looks great

      PTE 67m VEMS powered VR6 Audi S2

    22. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-10-2009 11:02 PM #22
      thanks brah!

    23. 12-11-2009 02:05 PM #23
      Wait up here.... is this one of the root causes of the dreaded 02J anything past 4000 rpm grinds like a mofo problem??

      I noticed that when I got my SPEC S3 clutch I actually grinded MORE between shifts. Even now with my rebuilt shift hubs i still grind a bit. However my 1 to 2 shift is nice, thanks to big tooth 02A shift hub and syncros!

      I too have a left over o2J case, another one of those bad boys in your hand and a TIG welder... I might have to give it a shot!


    24. 12-11-2009 02:06 PM #24
      Did the same kind of thing with mine, never really got to try it out but will this spring. Nicely done!

    25. Member mechsoldier's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 14th, 2004
      Location
      Renton, WA
      Posts
      7,451
      Vehicles
      71 Bus, 89 Golf, 98GLX, 97TDI Jetta, 66 Beetle
      12-12-2009 09:04 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by vdubspeed »
      very nice. I'm lost though. Why do they need strengthing?

      They break even in stock transmissions, I run across a couple a year that are snapped, usually due to the pressure plate becoming more stiff to disengage the clutch as the clutch disk wears. Just did one in a 98 GLX Jetta last week that was snapped.

      Dub Autowerks VW, Audi, Porsche, and BMW parts and service
      1723 West Valley Hwy E
      Sumner, WA 98390
      http://www.DubAutowerks.com

    26. Member MKII16v's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 23rd, 1999
      Location
      Sammamish, WA
      Posts
      5,386
      Vehicles
      06 Sienna XLE Limited
      12-13-2009 12:28 AM #26
      I bent a stock one so far it was touching the pressure plate at idle with only a Sachs power pressure plate. I have been running the Flipside unit for 2 years now and it handles the Clutchnet Red pressure plate great. At $70, its a bargain.

    27. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 19th, 1999
      Location
      Oxford, PA
      Posts
      35,153
      Vehicles
      03 325i
      12-13-2009 07:42 AM #27
      Quote, originally posted by kkkustom »
      Wait up here.... is this one of the root causes of the dreaded 02J anything past 4000 rpm grinds like a mofo problem??

      I noticed that when I got my SPEC S3 clutch I actually grinded MORE between shifts. Even now with my rebuilt shift hubs i still grind a bit. However my 1 to 2 shift is nice, thanks to big tooth 02A shift hub and syncros!

      I too have a left over o2J case, another one of those bad boys in your hand and a TIG welder... I might have to give it a shot!

      The clutch fork won't help at all unless yours is bent. Other then full 02a big tooth syncros, etc try *good* gear oil. I've had good luck with Torco.

      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - ??.??@??? 3.6 Power - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning
      Build Thread: The Build Thread "Good Clean Fun"

    28. 12-13-2009 03:48 PM #28
      listen to paul...he knows his ****
      Brandon A.
      BAAK2BASICS TUNING LLC
      FACESPACE US CLICK HERE

    29. Member
      Join Date
      Feb 10th, 2006
      Location
      Europe
      Posts
      265
      Vehicles
      Audi typ81q 16V turbo, Audi B6 tq
      12-14-2009 01:29 AM #29
      Quote, originally posted by need_a_VR6 »

      I've had good luck with Torco.

      Have you used RTF or MTF?

      http://www.torco-oil.com/produ...ssion


    30. Forum Sponsor Quintin@USRT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 6th, 2009
      Location
      DC
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      A founding Member of the 8v 350+whp Club, Now rocking a B7 S4 mmmmm V8!
      12-14-2009 08:03 PM #30
      i really wish i swapped in o2a sychros while i had it apart swapping r&ps! of course i didnt remember at the time

    31. Banner Advertiser pete@integrated's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 1st, 2009
      Location
      Salt Lake City, UT
      Posts
      3,142
      Vehicles
      '92 Gti 20v, '96 M3, '10 Shop Van :)
      12-15-2009 05:40 AM #31
      I looked at machining them. There isn't any room in the bellhousing to increase the cross section where the critical stresses are found, and it would need to be machined in at least 3 or 4 different setups. The worst part is since most steels have roughly the same youngs modulus, you can easily stop them from eventually breaking- use 4140 or 4340- but to make them stiffer so you get all the throw out of the PP, isn't very easy. All you can really do is harden up the steel somewhat which is why Q was quenching.

      I think a machined part could be made to be stiffer then stock, especially if the transmission case was ground down to give a bit more room for install, but when i looked at it, it wasn't cost effective.

      You certainly don't want to make one out of aluminum regardless of the tensile strength of whatever alloy.

      FWIW, these do flex significantly in regular usage even when they aren't "bent"... Like a bit over .060" with a single diaphragm "race" style pressure plate. It may be what causes a lot of these transmissions to drag clutch disks at high rpm. You can't shift a transmission that still has load on it.


      PS: Found oooooollld pictures.



      I don't think I ever got past "seeing what i could fit in the bellhousing" so that certainly isn't a production ready design by any means. I already see some corners that would need a radius or they would be impossible.


      Modified by pete@integrated at 2:52 AM 12-15-2009

      .:IntEngineering.com:. .:Facebook:.

      Check out some cutting edge R&D Work on our blog! IE Behind the scenes Blog!

    32. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 19th, 1999
      Location
      Oxford, PA
      Posts
      35,153
      Vehicles
      03 325i
      12-15-2009 09:30 AM #32
      Quote, originally posted by TeemuM »

      Have you used RTF or MTF?

      http://www.torco-oil.com/produ...ssion

      RTF is in there now, works a lot better then Redline.

      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - ??.??@??? 3.6 Power - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning
      Build Thread: The Build Thread "Good Clean Fun"

    33. 12-15-2009 09:52 AM #33
      Quote, originally posted by Quintin@USRT »

      it can be done with mild...using the right recipe http://lametalsmiths.org/news/robb_gunter.htm

      Standard quenching with water though may only just barely harden the surface.

      Recipe or no recipe, the carbon level are so low, I doubt you will be seeing any change in hardness at all. According to wikipedia, quenching carbon steel works for steels containing at least 0.4% carbon, and mild steel has between 0.05 and 0.15% ... Anyways, sorry for bustin' balls, don't mean to nitpick.

      edit : Okay, I read the article, and they pitch their theory well, but it just goes against everything I have ever learned about metallurgy.


      Modified by Agtronic at 9:55 AM 12-15-2009

      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    34. Member Eganx's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 30th, 2004
      Location
      Poulsbo WA
      Posts
      2,250
      Vehicles
      built 90 jetta coupe
      12-15-2009 11:31 AM #34
      Quote, originally posted by Quintin@USRT »

      Standard quenching with water though may only just barely harden the surface.

      when I harden anything I quench in used motor oil. the way I understand it, the metal will actually draw carbon out of the oil to harden the surface of the metal. it has worked quite well for me for a while.


    35. 12-15-2009 11:40 AM #35
      How are you guys testing for results in hardening?
      Markku Kivinen | Agtronic Motorsport

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •