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Perfect Timing...

6K views 52 replies 12 participants last post by  a81sturmer 
#1 ·
Time to do my timing tomorrow (No Pun Intended)...
My inspection and emissions are done for, and im tired of my timing being compensated 12%+ from the ecu for the last year...
I attempted doing it last time, and didn't have anything to align the cams properly... So i eye balled the shiz... That failed epiclly.
So... I am doing it again tomorrow, and now that i have something proper to align my cams, hopefully... it's going to show me that... my timing from upper portion of the engine is off...

My question and concern is... When i had my chains done by a shop (not by choice, but i was working all the time and no place to do it myself... HAD to have someone do it for me) and paying STEALership prices for it... My timing was off and had a million little sensor and vacuum problems... I fixed them all, EXCEPT the timing being off.
IF THE CAM TIMING IS ON POINT... I am scared to think that the crank to mid sprocket is off. From the research i have read/done, it is impossible to have the crank to mid sprocket off... It is only possible to have the timing off from mid sprocket to cams...
It's not even hard to do the timing IMO... Just such a long a55 process to rip it apart and put it all together to have it be off again.
I should be starting this mid afternoon after the cable guy get's to mi casa. So any input would be appreciated. I want this crap done with already.
Hopefully this fixes my 17-18mpg highway too. Even worse city.
 
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#27 ·
Re: Perfect Timing... (iMAHLON)

what a mess....better off just taking the thing apart....leave the bottom end at tdc and just remove the cams place them on the correct side torque them down and just finish the job....stop fiddlin wit the thing and get it over with...doesnt matter how you get it timed just get it timed right! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#28 ·
Re: FV-QR (James@CSP)

Quote, originally posted by James@CSP »
The TDC mark on the crank is not for only #1 TDC but all cylinder's TDC point.

Huh? So every time you rotate the crank one rev, another cylinder is at the top of its stroke? My engine rotates six times faster than that.
 
#29 ·
Re: Perfect Timing... (daloztprophet)

Quote, originally posted by daloztprophet »
what a mess....better off just taking the thing apart....leave the bottom end at tdc and just remove the cams place them on the correct side torque them down and just finish the job....stop fiddlin wit the thing and get it over with...doesnt matter how you get it timed just get it timed right! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

If the intermediate shaft was definitely timed correctly, then I agree. he doesn't know that for sure though.
 
#32 ·
Re: FV-QR (iMAHLON)

VRt6 is right, about my previous statement about TDC I was incorrect. However TDC on the crank will be both 1 and 6 at the top of their stroke, and considering that 1 and 6 are a full revolution apart in the firing order wouldn't that put the cam notches upside down every other turn.
Like VRt6 said previously the cams spin half the speed of the crank so one revolution should put the cam notches upside down and one more should bring them back to where they need to be for the tool to fit.
To the OP have you put the cam alignment tool in the cams and then checked where the crank is? Its normal for the crank line to be a hair off when the cam tool is in. If when you check the cams and they are exactly 180 degrees upside down when the crank is at TDC then they should be pretty close to being right on time turning the engine over one more full rotation.
 
#33 ·
Re: FV-QR (James@CSP)

Quote, originally posted by James@CSP »
lf when you check the cams and they are exactly 180 degrees upside down when the crank is at TDC then they should be pretty close to being right on time turning the engine over one more full rotation.

Right.
 
#34 ·
FV-QR

I don't know if the intermediate shaft was timed properly... So i am not going to mess around and try and re do it and then have to rip it apart again...
All part i bought personally and are all OEM. I wasn't going to effe around with the life line of my engine and purchase some ghetto as5 products.
The trans came off tonight, and flywheel, clutch etc etc. Tomorrow after i purchase a clutch alignment tool, and a 8mm 12pt socket to put the PP back on and torque to spec, i am going to rip the bottom cover off and start on the perfect timing.
 
#36 ·
Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)

Here is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.
The OP sees the notch when the crank is at TDC but the cams are 180 off from where the plates fit. There are two notches in the outer intermediate shaft gear, 180 degrees apart. When the engine is correctly timed, the notch shows when the crank is at TDC and the cam locking plate can fit in.
If the OP can see the notch when the crank is at TDC but the cams are 180 off, this means that the outer intermediate gear is 1/4 rotation off, or close to it. If it was timed correctly, you shouldn't be able to see the notch (at least it shouldn’t be right in front of you) when the cam locking plate can't fit and the crank is at TDC. Since the crank sprocket has 24 teeth and the outer intermediate shaft sprocket has 32 teeth, for every rotation of the crank, the intermediate shaft spins 3/4 of a full rotation. When you spin the crank around one time (from TDC when it is correctly timed) the intermediate shaft has rotated 3/4 of a rotation and there is no notch there.
If the outer intermediate sprocket is off by 1/4 rotation (8 outer sprocket teeth) this will cause problems. The inner sprocket has 18 teeth and the outer sprocket has 32 teeth (as mentioned before), so there are only two places where two teeth “match up” on the two sprockets (32 and 18 have a greatest common divisor of 2), hence why you can time the lower chain with the sprocket in one of two positions. 1/4 of a rotation on the outer sprocket is equal to 4.5 teeth… so the cams are likely off by a half a tooth or plus or minus, if the outer sprocket is off by 8 teeth.
Below is a plot of how many degrees the cams are off vs. the number of teeth the outer sprocket is off from where it is supposed to be (the arrows in the gear holes pointing up or down). Note that the x axis only goes to 16 since everything is back in time again (the number of teeth you are off is of course zero) after one half of a rotation of the intermediate shaft. The error assumes the chain is installed to the closest tooth on the inner sprocket. Below that is a plot of the same data, only expressed in number of inner sprocket teeth error.
Regardless, I think the OP’s intermediate shaft is mis-timed, which will require removal of the tranny to fix. Sorry dude!





Modified by crspechicn at 1:47 PM 1-14-2010


Modified by crspechicn at 1:48 PM 1-14-2010
 
#37 ·
FV-QR

Quote, originally posted by VgRt6 »
Don't buy a clutch alignment tool. Save your money. Just use a long socket or wood dowel that's the correct size, or just smaller than it.
And I'm pretty sure that PP bolts are 9mm 12 point, not 8mm.

--- Ah, maybe thats what i used haha. This is just from memory, and was going back to the garage to double check tomorrow before i go purchase crap... I have been hardcore slacking on all the parts i have been selling lately, and i haven't shipped anything out. I have like 800$ or more in misc parts sold, and nothing has been sent out yet. Shame on me...
Quote, originally posted by crspechicn »
Here is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.
The OP sees the notch when the crank is at TDC but the cams are 180 off from where the plates fit. There are two notches in the outer intermediate shaft gear, 180 degrees apart. When the engine is correctly timed, the notch shows when the crank is at TDC and the cam locking plate can fit in.
If the OP can see the notch when the crank is at TDC but the cams are 180 off, this means that the outer intermediate gear is 1/4 rotation off, or close to it. If it was timed correctly, you shouldn't be able to see the notch (at least it shouldn’t be right in front of you) when the cam locking plate can't fit and the crank is at TDC. Since the crank sprocket has 24 teeth and the outer intermediate shaft sprocket has 32 teeth, for every rotation of the crank, the intermediate shaft spins 3/4 of a full rotation. When you spin the crank around one time (from TDC when it is correctly timed) the intermediate shaft has rotated 3/4 of a rotation and there is no notch there.
If the outer intermediate sprocket is off by 1/4 rotation (8 outer sprocket teeth) this will cause problems. The inner sprocket has 18 teeth and the outer sprocket has 32 teeth (as mentioned before), so there are only two places where two teeth “match up” on the two sprockets (32 and 18 have a greatest common divisor of 2), hence why you can time the lower chain with the sprocket in one of two positions. 1/4 of a rotation on the outer sprocket is equal to 4.5 teeth… so the cams are likely off by a half a tooth or plus or minus, if the outer sprocket is off by 8 teeth.
Below is a plot of how many degrees the cams are off vs. the number of teeth the outer sprocket is off from where it is supposed to be (the arrows in the gear holes pointing up or down). Note that the x axis only goes to 16 since everything is back in time again (the number of teeth you are off is of course zero) after one half of a rotation of the intermediate shaft. The error assumes the chain is installed to the closest tooth on the inner sprocket. Below that is a plot of the same data, only expressed in number of inner sprocket teeth error.
Regardless, I think the OP’s intermediate shaft is mis-timed, which will require removal of the tranny to fix. Sorry dude!

--- Yeah, that's what i came to a conclusion of... That's why the trans is down now haha.
ADD: I also had a new main seal put in when i had the chains installed last time... (keep in mind... i was working/school all the time and i ahd no time to do it myself... hence why i paid some D bag to do it for me)... There is tons of oil around there, but im not sure if it's because of my main seal. Guess i should buy a new one just in case.
 
#38 ·
FV-QR

Well... Did the chains and all.. Cams were 180 degrees out of timing, and the intermediate shaft was 1-2 teeth off.
I got everything on and back together (as for the timing covers that is) i rotated it like 10 times and each time was good to go... On timing.. Perfect. Quite happy with the results...
Now the big test is... When i start it up... Let's hope it's all MONEY! No cel... Prey to the car gods!
 
#39 ·
Re: FV-QR (iMAHLON)

Double check that you torqued all of the bolts correctly. Many more people forget to torque a bolt (especially the intermediate shaft bolt) than get the timing wrong enough to cause a problem). If one of the critical bolts backs off, then all hell breaks loose.
 
#41 ·
Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)

Quote, originally posted by VgRt6 »
Double check that you torqued all of the bolts correctly. Many more people forget to torque a bolt (especially the intermediate shaft bolt) than get the timing wrong enough to cause a problem). If one of the critical bolts backs off, then all hell breaks loose.

---- 74lbs its torqued at
 
#43 ·
I have the crank TDC, and cams TDC, the only thing that... makes me iffy... the intermediate shaft was like a hair to the right of the tdc mark for it... I am thinking it's fine because... the chains only allow so much leway, and... there just wasn't getting it any closer than it was when i did it now.
Like i said, i rotated it a bunch and everything was still on point... so i think it's just me over analysing.
 
#45 ·
Re: (iMAHLON)

Quote, originally posted by iMAHLON »
I have the crank TDC, and cams TDC, the only thing that... makes me iffy... the intermediate shaft was like a hair to the right of the tdc mark for it... I am thinking it's fine because... the chains only allow so much leway, and... there just wasn't getting it any closer than it was when i did it now.
Like i said, i rotated it a bunch and everything was still on point... so i think it's just me over analysing.

If the crank is at #1 TDC and the cam grooves are lined up and a cam plate slides in, then the everything is fine. In the end, it's only those two things that matter.
 
#47 ·
Re: FV-QR (crspechicn)

crspechicn said:
Here is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.
The OP sees the notch when the crank is at TDC but the cams are 180 off from where the plates fit. There are two notches in the outer intermediate shaft gear, 180 degrees apart. When the engine is correctly timed, the notch shows when the crank is at TDC and the cam locking plate can fit in.
If the OP can see the notch when the crank is at TDC but the cams are 180 off, this means that the outer intermediate gear is 1/4 rotation off, or close to it. If it was timed correctly, you shouldn't be able to see the notch (at least it shouldn’t be right in front of you) when the cam locking plate can't fit and the crank is at TDC. Since the crank sprocket has 24 teeth and the outer intermediate shaft sprocket has 32 teeth, for every rotation of the crank, the intermediate shaft spins 3/4 of a full rotation. When you spin the crank around one time (from TDC when it is correctly timed) the intermediate shaft has rotated 3/4 of a rotation and there is no notch there.
If the outer intermediate sprocket is off by 1/4 rotation (8 outer sprocket teeth) this will cause problems. The inner sprocket has 18 teeth and the outer sprocket has 32 teeth (as mentioned before), so there are only two places where two teeth “match up” on the two sprockets (32 and 18 have a greatest common divisor of 2), hence why you can time the lower chain with the sprocket in one of two positions. 1/4 of a rotation on the outer sprocket is equal to 4.5 teeth… so the cams are likely off by a half a tooth or plus or minus, if the outer sprocket is off by 8 teeth.
Below is a plot of how many degrees the cams are off vs. the number of teeth the outer sprocket is off from where it is supposed to be (the arrows in the gear holes pointing up or down). Note that the x axis only goes to 16 since everything is back in time again (the number of teeth you are off is of course zero) after one half of a rotation of the intermediate shaft. The error assumes the chain is installed to the closest tooth on the inner sprocket. Below that is a plot of the same data, only expressed in number of inner sprocket teeth error.
Regardless, I think the OP’s intermediate shaft is mis-timed, which will require removal of the tranny to fix. Sorry dude!
doh, he is right about the middle gear. i forgot about the way that it works. even if the cam tool goes in at tdc, it may still be off a couple of degrees in timing that the ecu can not make up for. my bad. and yeah, start from scratch to be 100% sure you are in time, no pun intended.
 
#49 ·
Re: FV-QR (angelod307)

Quote, originally posted by angelod307 »

doh, he is right about the middle gear. i forgot about the way that it works. even if the cam tool goes in at tdc, it may still be off a couple of degrees in timing that the ecu can not make up for. my bad. and yeah, start from scratch to be 100% sure you are in time, no pun intended.

1/2 of a tooth is enough to cause the cam plates not to be able to slide in. If the cam plate goes in, then the intermediate shaft timing has to be correct.

Do the pics at the top of this page work for anyone else. All I see are red Xs.



Modified by VgRt6 at 11:05 AM 1-14-2010
 
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