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    Thread: Increasing my rocker ratio

    1. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-06-2010 04:46 PM #36
      I'd like to see that..aluminum seems awfully soft for that application.
      -Josh
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    2. Member newcreation's Avatar
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      02-06-2010 05:08 PM #37
      I wouldn't think they would be aluminum either but a casted part that can have the look of aluminum
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      02-06-2010 07:42 PM #38
      Late coming to this cause I haven't been round in a while. Used to use cast aluminum high-lift rockers in the old days on "A" series mini engines. Besides more lift, they were quieter and lighter.

      Damn! When its all over these NA 24v 3.2 engines are going to be pretty impressive. Always knew I would prefer this route to turbo. Too bad I'm now too broke to play

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    4. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-06-2010 07:49 PM #39
      Yea, I've seen aftermarket made from aluminum before..I guess I am just surprised to hear of VW doing it from the factory.
      -Josh
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    5. Member newcreation's Avatar
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      02-06-2010 07:52 PM #40
      Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »
      Yea, I've seen aftermarket made from aluminum before..I guess I am just surprised to hear of VW doing it from the factory.

      x2

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    6. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      02-06-2010 10:20 PM #41
      They're cast something, I just have to find them!
      -Paul
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      02-07-2010 12:45 AM #42
      Subscribed to this thread

      Some very interesting information already


    8. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-07-2010 12:56 PM #43
      Quote, originally posted by need_a_VR6 »
      You'd probably only need to upgrade the springs if you use larger cams. It might be an inexpensive way to more lift/duration with stockers.

      Ok. Found the stock cams spec chart.

      If my math is correct these rockers will bring the stock cams from

      9.85IN / 9.90EX to 11.21IN / 11.27EX


      -Josh
      Current- 06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 00 M Roadster | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick | 01 ZRX1200R | 03 KLX400R
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    9. 02-07-2010 04:11 PM #44
      Quote, originally posted by need_a_VR6 »
      Good question.

      I had a reman 2.8L 24v BDF head that used cast aluminum rockers. The other BDF head and BJS heads I had at the time both uses a stamped steel rocker. I'll try and take pics of the 'reman' ones as they seem to not be the norm. Dimensions between both sets seemed similar enough that I didn't measure anything.

      i broke one of those aluminum rockers in my motor


    10. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      02-07-2010 05:07 PM #45
      Have you switched to the stamped ones now?
      -Paul
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    11. 02-07-2010 05:32 PM #46
      yes sir

    12. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      02-07-2010 05:42 PM #47
      Good to know. Those cast ones seemed pretty heavy.
      -Paul
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    13. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-08-2010 09:35 AM #48
      Just purchased 1 of these rockers for testing purposes.

      Since it is coming from overseas, it may take a while to arrive.

      -Josh
      Current- 06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 00 M Roadster | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick | 01 ZRX1200R | 03 KLX400R
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    14. 02-08-2010 09:44 AM #49
      I got 23 of them next to me.....you can have them to test

    15. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-08-2010 10:01 AM #50
      I'm not talking about factory rockers...I've ordered 1 of the rockers that this thread is about..from a car overseas (non-vag) that will increase our lift.
      -Josh
      Current- 06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 00 M Roadster | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick | 01 ZRX1200R | 03 KLX400R
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    16. Member newcreation's Avatar
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      02-08-2010 11:15 AM #51
      Nice Josh waiting to see how this pans out
      -JAMES-
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    17. 02-08-2010 12:55 PM #52
      Got a few things to add to this discussion:

      Facts:

      ~The "Cast Aluminum" rocker referenced as a BDF rocker is actually CAST IRON. We have a BDF head here at Ferrea.

      ~The cast iron rocker for all intensive purposes is mechanically identical to the stamped steel rockers in the later engines.

      ~The CAST IRON rocker actually weighs LESS than the stamped steel unit. I expected this to be the other way around, but the scale tells a different story.


      Disappointing Reality:

      ~To change the roller wheel point with the VR6 24v arrangement in order to increase lift WILL NOT WORK properly. I read through this thread as clearly as I could, expecting to find someone pointing this out, but I did not. I'll try to explain.

      If this were any other engine, there would be nothing but the good facts drawn out in the AutoCAD images that were posted. 16v FSI, etc...EXCELLENT!!

      HOWEVER, we are crippled by the inherent awesomeness of the VR6's narrow-angle nature.

      Picture this:
      Take the intake cam and rocker arrangement for example. The front 3 cylinders are actuated by rocker arms that are facing the front bumper. To change the rocker ratio for these means that the roller wheel with be moved further towards the pivoting point which will cause the cam lobes to begin opening and closing the valves LATER. I saw someone mention 2° somewhere. Sounds ok, right? Most people degree cams retarded which would shift the RPM band UP. Still sounds fine with me, how about you?

      Super-Large wall that we are about to crash into:
      What about the 3 cylinders that are on the rear bank of the engine? They get their valve lift from the same bump-stick that the front 3 cylinders do, right? So what is the problem? They are actuated by rockers that are TURNED AROUND!!! Facing 180° from how the front 3 cylinders are actuated will cause you to shift the opening and closing events by the same amount as the front cylinders, however in the OPPOSITE direction!!

      If your front cylinders have intake cam timing that is retarded by 2° and you run the same set of "different/new" rockers on the rear 3 cylinders, you will now have the rear-cylinder valve timing events altered by a +2° since they will be advanced by an equal amount.

      The only way to get your "more lift" properly would be with cams that have "more lift". You could compensate the cam timing with rockers if this were a normal in-line engine, but that gets thrown out the window being that we have rockers facing two different directions. You can't compensate for it on both front AND rear cylinder banks.


    18. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      02-08-2010 01:13 PM #53
      So having cams ground to make up for that would be out of the question?
      -Paul
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    19. 02-08-2010 02:36 PM #54
      Quote, originally posted by need_a_VR6 »
      So having cams ground to make up for that would be out of the question?

      Well yes, that would take care of that problem....but having cams made at all would eliminate the need to mess with rocker ratio changes at all. Moot point.

      Besides, a lower rocker ratio puts less fulcrum loads and resistance on the valvetrain components as well. Nothing major, but just a fact. Custom grind cams is your best solution.

      BTW.....since Crane Cams went the way of the Dodo Bird, we are no longer at their mercy for having cams produced to our specs and have moved production into our existing production facilities in Argentina. We are currently in the design stages for FSI 16v camshafts. I think there's a very good opportunity that I could talk our way into production of camshafts for the VR6 if there is enough interest, and DEFINITELY at a lower cost than what is available.

      Any interest?


    20. 02-08-2010 02:38 PM #55
      Ummm Hell Yeah!!!!

    21. 02-08-2010 04:03 PM #56
      Quote, originally posted by Sanjay24V »
      Ummm Hell Yeah!!!!

      Hmmmm, I just speed-browsed PowerDubs thread about Schrick 272° cams. I'll admit, I flipped through the first 4 pages, then jumped to the last page. Someone had a dyno sheet that had comments about the powerband shifting heavily to the right.

      Can anyone give me an accurate Cliff-note's version in the meantime until I read through 31 pages of it?


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      02-08-2010 04:59 PM #57
      Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

      ..., and DEFINITELY at a lower cost than what is available.

      Any interest?

      If they a) work on an MK V R32 and b) don't give up too much torque the YES as I'm still looking for the cam with the best low/midrange for my daily driving (aka more often around 2-4 rather than 5-7)


    23. 02-08-2010 05:35 PM #58
      Quote, originally posted by BlixaBargeld »

      If they a) work on an MK V R32 and b) don't give up too much torque the YES as I'm still looking for the cam with the best low/midrange for my daily driving (aka more often around 2-4 rather than 5-7)

      I noticed some mentioned that MKV cams were different. What specifically is different between these?

      Also....what you are asking for is difficult to obtain. A "PERFORMANCE" camshaft by nature commonly needs to sacrifice low-end power in order to make a power increase at the higher RPM. Everyone WANTS racecar power but no one wants to live with racecar compromises however.


      Modified by KingVR at 4:39 PM 2-8-2010


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      02-08-2010 05:51 PM #59
      Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

      I noticed some mentioned that MKV cams were different. What specifically is different between these?

      Also....what you are asking for is difficult to obtain. A "PERFORMANCE" camshaft by nature commonly needs to sacrifice low-end power in order to make a power increase at the higher RPM. Everyone WANTS racecar power but no one wants to live with racecar compromises however.


      Modified by KingVR at 4:39 PM 2-8-2010

      The exhasut cam is different if I remember correct. PowerDobs can probably confirm this

      The 268/264 mix is supposed to have gains all over the range (yes low/midrage too). While what you state is true in most cases the VR6 seems to be an exception to this rule. Don't have dynos available (there might be some) but as this comes from PowerDubs .....


      Modified by BlixaBargeld at 1:52 PM 2-8-2010


    25. 02-08-2010 06:16 PM #60
      In the meantime I thought that I might bring up an option that most are probably not yet aware of.

      If you would like to almost convert your VR to a solid-lifter setup, we have a very very cost-effective solution for you. Originally designed for the 16v FSI engine, I noticed that it is a direct 100% drop-in for the 24v VR6 as well...and the newer inline-5 engines. The original design intention was Mr. Ferrea's solution to the FSI customers having their rockers getting tossed off of the lifter sockets, let alone breaking the retaining clip on the underside.

      What we came up with was a shim of a specific thickness that you install under the OEM hydraulic lifter body. This effectively PRELOADS the OEM lifter nearly 100% so that it functions similar to a solid lifter, but still has the lash-adjusting capability that it was meant to have built in.

      Hydraulic lifters are known to have pump-down issues above the 7,000 RPM range, which causes excessive lash...which inherently causes you to lose X-amount of valve lift and duration values. In many cases, this is why you can witness your torque curve suddenly take a dive at higher RPMs. When people run bigger cams, they can make more power at those higher RPMs because they have started with more lift, and when the lift is lost, it lands in the stock-value areas making power that the OEM cams could not.

      Part number is LP1101 and quite affordable with retail pricing at only $2.15 each.

      Only negative is that it requires cam removal for installation, but at least you don't need to mess with the spring assembly and pressurizing the cylinder like you do with valve spring removal, etc.


    26. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-08-2010 07:49 PM #61
      Hi King VR.

      Thanks for joining the discussion.


      I've got pictures to clarify what you are saying for people who haven't seen the insides. Yes, we are increasing the spread between the front and rear banks timing, but the timing events (IN/EX) of each cyl stay the same within itself. I think that is more important.


      I'm not sure these won't work. What is happening here is not much different than header pulse, etc.. Many engines have inherit imbalance issues in port design, firing order, etc..which might not be ideal on paper but still function in real life. Hell, Harley made an empire off of it.


      As a matter of fact if you look at the pictures.. taking into account the higher ratio rockers have the roller moved closer to the pivot...and the cams spin counterclockwise the front bank (short ports) will open a little later and the rear bank (long ports) will open a little earlier. Could this not, in theory HELP to even out the inherit flow differences that the port lengths of the front rear bank design themselves create? Food for thought..


      -Josh
      Current- 06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 00 M Roadster | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick | 01 ZRX1200R | 03 KLX400R
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    27. 02-08-2010 11:41 PM #62
      I actually bought a set for my 24v back in the Fall from Jeff. Cant wait to put it all in a car. :sigh:
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    28. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-09-2010 01:16 AM #63
      Quote, originally posted by fourthchirpin »
      I actually bought a set for my 24v back in the Fall from Jeff. Cant wait to put it all in a car.


      A set of what? The cast rockers that they mentioned above having failed?

      -Josh
      Current- 06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 00 M Roadster | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick | 01 ZRX1200R | 03 KLX400R
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    29. 02-09-2010 01:22 AM #64
      Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »


      A set of what? The cast rockers that they mentioned above having failed?


      lifter shims kingvr mentioned.

      Racing Improves the breed..
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    30. 02-09-2010 11:41 AM #65
      P-Dubs...I thought about that as well, but lets take a look at what WILL actually happen on paper:

      Your front bank of cylinders will have both intake and exhaust open later by the same amount....whatever that amount is, that is to be determined, but negative from the factory timing setup.

      The rear bank will have the timing events for both intake and exhaust occur in a positive manner...positive from the factory timing setup.

      The VR6 can really be looked at as if it were literally two entirely different "3-cylinder" engines.

      One thing that I have never heard discussed is how radically different the centerline of the crankshaft's offset is between the front and rear banks within the engine:

      One bank has a radical (in a bad way) amount of connecting rod angle-offset which creates a not-so optimal leverage/dwell on the power-stroke and a fast piston speed in relation to the speed as the piston comes back up on the compression and exhaust motions.

      ...and the other bank has the exact opposite issue behavior. Perhaps because the negative effects of one are a positive on the other, and visa versa, they cancel each other out.


      Ok, back on topic......proper cams are the way to go. Unfortunately it would be more costly to do than it would be to have simply done some nifty rockers. However, while you may gain flow from added lift, you won't know that true benefit because you're altering the valve timing events so radically.

      Josh...I would love to send you those lifter shims to you at no cost for you to install and show the difference they make. The FSI guys push into the 8k RPM and above area, which makes them cure the danger-factor of tossing the rockers off to the side, but if you're not going to such extreme RPM's then you may not see any change. But if you have ANY instability issues, then you are definitely losing power because you are not following the cam profile any longer. You would be the perfect candidate for this testing.

      Just let me know.


    31. 02-10-2010 01:56 AM #66
      Racing Improves the breed..
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    32. Member Draxus's Avatar
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      02-10-2010 03:17 AM #67
      So what was the result of this?

      Do we have hope?

      Quote Originally Posted by BlownR View Post
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    33. 02-10-2010 10:31 AM #68
      Quote, originally posted by Draxus »
      So what was the result of this?

      Do we have hope?

      He hasn't installed them yet....but the FSI people have over in Europe.

      Unfortunately no one has installed the shims without installing our spring kit. It has solved the issue of them tossing the rockers off when they go beyond 7500 RPM. I think at least one has gone to 8500 RPM with no issue at all, so that says something right there.

      I'd love to see what these cam do by themselves, but there is always the issue of the OEM springs not being up to the job and allowing the valves to not stay shut when they should, hence a possible reason why Josh saw no increase in power after having his head ported. And IIRC he didn't gain much when doing the Schrick cams. Why? If you care about your cam specs at all, then you can toss that right out the window when they are not being followed by the valve.

      Many people, even professional engine builders, believe that spring pressure will consume horsepower from the engine. With these later-generation VW engines using roller wheels to contact the cam lobe, there is little frictional energy to acquire when increasing spring tension.

      While spring tension in itself will cause resistance to opening a valve, that tension is a moot point as it is washed out by a spring assisting the rotation of the camshaft as it will be on the closing side. Might not be as true on a single-cylinder engine, but with 6 cylinders, we have 12 pairs of lobes to neutralize the opening tensions.

      Many aftermarket springs out there don't show any power improvement usually because in most cases, nothing more than the concern with making it fit the OEM retainer (which is usually excessively heavy) so that people feel like they got the benefit of a great spring. We take far more than that into consideration. In fact, that is a design element that we intentionally do NOT take into consideration. To restrict your spring design means that you are compromising the potential performance of the arrangement. There are harmonic issues that take place as well. Many engine designers actually engineer the valvetrain so that if one were to defeat the factory RPM limiter, the valvetrain BY DESIGN will lose power, making the driver not interested in abusing the engine at engine speeds above the factory setting, either because of spring harmonics or simply intentionally designing in too-low of a spring pressure. Sort of, mechanical speed limiter, if you will.

      So, to make your "Performance Spring" fit a factory retainer, you are compromising the design potential, and you are causing that limited performing spring to work with an excessively overweight retainer.
      The 12v VR6 retainer which is made of steel, weighs 18.5 grams. A certain Aftermarket Titanium retainer, which is a complete 100% dimensional copy of the OEM steel retainer, weighs 12.5 grams. Our Ferrea Titanium retainer which is optimized in every way possible with no compromises, weighs less than half of that competitor's retainer at only 6 grams.

      Before I worked at Ferrea and learned all that I have, springs and retainers were the last thing on my list to consider to upgrade in an engine. Now that I know what I do know, they would be my first. Before valves, before cams, before intake manifolds, etc. If your valvetrain system is not keeping itself under control, then what do you expect to gain by changing out other parts in hopes of gaining huge power, while allowing your valves to take on closing behaviors of their own which is a sure bet that you will be losing power where you could have had it.


      Modified by KingVR at 10:01 AM 2-10-2010


    34. Member robocopywriter's Avatar
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      02-10-2010 11:40 AM #69
      Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

      reason why Josh saw no increase in power after having his head ported. And IIRC he didn't gain much when doing the Schrick cams.

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    35. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      02-10-2010 12:03 PM #70
      I'll be the first to admit, I'm skeptical. But I'm also open minded enough to give things a chance and try them.

      I've always been of the school of thought that springs only need to be changed if there is a specific need to.. to allow more lift, or if there is a problem with valve control.

      I suppose it is within the realm of possibility that there could be issues on the stock setup that are minor enough that we don't notice them, but still can be corrected to show a difference.

      See if your boss would be willing to hook me up with the parts, I'll do the install and dyno testing and post the results. If they truly do make a difference in the top end curve as you think they will and I can prove it... more sets will be sold. At this point nobody really considers them as they are not proven to be needed or beneficial at the revs normal people are seeing (7300).

      -Josh
      Current- 06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 00 M Roadster | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick | 01 ZRX1200R | 03 KLX400R
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