Increasing my rocker ratio

[KingVR]

Quote, originally posted by robocopywriter »

Ahem...you forgot to quote the word POSSIBLE in front of that quote that you quoted, as it should be. What you posted can too easily inferred differently than how I stated.

If springs from us do not cure that torque fading out above 6,500 then his intake manifold may be playing an important role as a bottleneck. I'd really like to see the OEM valvetrain be optimized with our parts. If nothing else changes, then it would confirm the intake manifold really is junk for power in that area.

I'll see what I can whip up for a promotional deal for our buddy PowerDubs. Stay posted.

[PowerDubs]

Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

I'll see what I can whip up for a promotional deal for our buddy PowerDubs. Stay posted.

Cool.. because at the end of the day it will cost me as much in gaskets, coolant + dyno fee (plus my time + work) as the parts cost you guys.

You stand to gain advertising and I might gain a couple hp. Win-Win.

[newcreation]

And a purchase from me if it works out.Since i p/md him asking about vlave train already lol

[PowerDubs]

Tada!!

[KingVR]

Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »

Cool.. because at the end of the day it will cost me as much in gaskets, coolant + dyno fee (plus my time + work) as the parts cost you guys. You stand to gain advertising and I might gain a couple hp. Win-Win.

We understand you will have costs of your own involved, but you don't need to remove the cylinder head to install a spring kit.

There are different places to purchase the tools from, but MAC for example has a tool kit that makes compressing the retainer while installed onto the cylinder an easy procedure.

[newcreation]

Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

We understand you will have costs of your own involved, but you don't need to remove the cylinder head to install a spring kit. There are different places to purchase the tools from, but MAC for example has a tool kit that makes compressing the retainer while installed onto the cylinder an easy procedure.

Well it will still be like doing a came job with extra work.He's trying to say he will need those gaskets and the two cam bolts plus the antifreeze probably a little over $100 somewhere for that stuff been along time since i did my cam install.

[PowerDubs]

Who mentioned pulling the head?

Intake to head gasket, valve cover gasket, spark plug hole gaskets, thermostat housing to head gasket, couple bottles G12.. same parts needed to swap cams.

[PowerDubs]

Ahh..forgot the cam bolts.

[newcreation]

Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »

Ahh..forgot the cam bolts.

don't wan to forget them

It should be pretty easy to do the retainer and springs on the head since we can fill the cylinder with air and do the work that way.If it works out i'll do those plus finally get larger cams and my c2 tune all at once

[PowerDubs]

When Steve Hannaford ported my head he mentioned he had to come up with something to get the springs compressed.

I haven't tried it yet...but that leads me to believe my spring compressor will not work if a guy that does heads all day long for a living had a snag.

[KingVR]

What is different on 24v that you need to open the coolant system to get the cams out? 12v never needed that.

Just curious...haven't ripped a 24v open myself yet.

[PowerDubs]

You need to pull the side cover and thermostat housing to pull the cams.

Note the coolant port on the head around the 8 o'clock position.

[newcreation]

I was just gonna post a pic that is about the same you beat me to it Josh

[beachball6]

Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

What is different on 24v that you need to open the coolant system to get the cams out? 12v never needed that. Just curious...haven't ripped a 24v open myself yet.

I said the same thing before I did my 24V cams.

[KingVR]

Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »

You need to pull the side cover and thermostat housing to pull the cams. Note the coolant port on the head around the 8 o'clock position.

That looks similar to a 12v, which has nothing requiring it to take the coolant housing off because it is completely independent of the timing cover. Obviously something is different, so I understand.

[KingVR]

Quote, originally posted by PowerDubs »

When Steve Hannaford ported my head he mentioned he had to come up with something to get the springs compressed. I haven't tried it yet...but that leads me to believe my spring compressor will not work if a guy that does heads all day long for a living had a snag.

With a standard "C-CLAMP" style tool, it perhaps didn't have enough depth to get to some of the valves.

The tool that I am talking about uses a bracket that bolts onto the cam bearing-cap points and uses a locking "lever" into that bracket so that you can simply pull the lever up which presses the retainer down on the other side.

[PowerDubs]

Yea.. I've got the one with the lever + brackets. I'm not beyond improvising if I need to.

[newcreation]

yea mac tools makes a good one for $130 bolts to the bearing caps spots and make the change a breeze just don't know if its a breeze on our motor

[PowerDubs]

Quote, originally posted by newcreation »

just don't know if its a breeze on our motor

That's where the issue lies.. look at how little space there is..

[newcreation]

Yea everything is in there pretty good well still should be to bad.its been alot time since i have done and spring changes they were all 4cylinder mitsu, and honda motors.

[killacoupe]

Quote, originally posted by KingVR »

That looks similar to a 12v, which has nothing requiring it to take the coolant housing off because it is completely independent of the timing cover. Obviously something is different, so I understand.

on the 24v the coolant housing bolts to the upper timing cover....unlike the 12v being separate from the cover

[fourthchirpin]

Josh if you get a valve spring compressor its pretty easy to do. You just have to adjust it every 6 valves which takes a while

but the tricky part isnt' even that, you have to try not to lose your keepers while installing them. Theres a technique that will prevent you from doing that though.

[killacoupe]

i hope that isn't a current pic.....that valve to the left is the wrong height

[fourthchirpin]

Quote, originally posted by killacoupe »

i hope that isn't a current pic.....that valve to the left is the wrong height

when I install the springs/retainers/keepers I place everything together as how you see it on the valve on the left, so that when I pull down on the lever to compress the spring the keepers slide down on the valve groove makes it alot easier instead of compression the spring, then trying to place each keeper into place. Makes everything go alot quicker.

a bigger pic of the whole thing


Modified by fourthchirpin at 9:10 PM 2-10-2010

[PowerDubs]

Drill press?

[fourthchirpin]

drill press with a valve compressor attachment. and the bottom swings for different angles. But Josh you can use this

My friend used a similar one to this to change his springs.

[XXX008XXX]

hummmmmm

[newcreation]

thats the one mac tools sells for 130

[lil8v]

Quote, originally posted by fourthchirpin »

Josh if you get a valve spring compressor its pretty easy to do. You just have to adjust it every 6 valves which takes a while but the tricky part isnt' even that, you have to try not to lose your keepers while installing them. Theres a technique that will prevent you from doing that though.

looks like ginos machine to me

[fourthchirpin]

Quote, originally posted by lil8v »

looks like ginos machine to me

yup. He goes you know the drill. heres your valves, springs, shims, keepers. lemme know when your done.

[Draxus]

Hot damn. Subscribed.

[need_a_VR6]

Josh tell C2 to get rid of that low limiter before you go 'testing' the lifter shims.

[KingVR]

fourthchirpin....are those single-groove keepers that you are installing like that, or triple-groove?

If those are triple-groove, then I wouldn't suggest installing those like you described since you would be stressing the locks and "splaying" them apart and warping/damaging them. This would also make it easy to gall the valve stems. Upon removal of the valves at a later point those gouges will damage the valve guides on the way out. Stress risers in most any valvetrain component is never a good thing either.

...but if those are Single-Groove locks, then installation like you stated has no ill effects.

However, if those are a certain aftermarket brand of valves and locks in single-groove, I would be afraid to start my engine.

While I am embellishing that comment, yes...it is only slightly.
I just recently showed our engineering department a sample of that competitor's valves and locks for a 1.8T he was stunned at how low the quality was. The locks are simply stamped steel and most likely from some OEM application. Nothing performance-quality oriented about them at all. Reason for it simply so it is interchangeable with OEM retainers, and to claim to be more reliable than the OEM triple-groove setup. The inherent problem with a triple groove is that the two lock-halves press against each other. The only benefit of this is that it does NOT tightly hold onto the valve which allows the valve to rotate and land in a fresh location as grandma drives around town, this keeps carbon from being able to build up on the valve seats. Fantastic engineering to avoid warranty claims, etc from those drivers. However, when you and I drive, we turn up the wick. Now the lose-holding design now means that you have valves, locks, and retainers dancing around in an uncontrolled manner. This leads to an erratic clamp/release/clamp scenario that galls and gouges into the lock area. A slight fracture/crack in a valve stem will eventually lead to the propagation of a complete failure. Having a valve and its locking area modify itself into a 2-piece valve means massive engine failure. I point out to customers all the time, you may have saved a little money initially, but when the grenades its going to cost you far more money (let alone hassle) than it would have to use the better parts.

Anyways, back to the these terrible single-groove locks at hand. The customer that sent these in wanted us to make him custom valves to work with these single-groove locks. I was about to but checked with my engineering department to see what they thought of that idea. They were blown away by how low the quality was on the lock. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when you design things to mix & match with OEM or other brands, you cannot do so without compromising either performance or reliability, or both.

Because these are designed to mimick the install fitment of the OEM lock, they are very thin at the bottom, and cheaply produced as stamped steel. Compared to our method of precision CNC machining, stamped steel can never hold the tolerances anywhere near as close. Even on this lock sample that we had, we could see evidence of wear on the lock due to inconsistent tolerances fluctuating from top to bottom. Another issue is that locks like this are so thin at the bottom of the lock that if you were to put them through a heat treatment sufficient for the upper body of the lock, the lower (and thinner) area of the lock will become case hardened which in turn means that it will be brittle and susceptible to breaking during installation if not done carefully.
Not applying uniform pressure within a steel retainer rarely has any wear-related issues. This is because a steel retainer has enough hardness to resist galling. Titanium on the other hand is a more malleable material in which gouging will occur when used in a severe race application. If you're not breaking these compromised parts, you're not pushing it hard enough. By that I mean road racing applications where the engine is living at the limiter the majority of the time, etc.. Probably won't be a problem in a street-driven vehicle, but why risk it? Not worth it to me just to save a few bucks.

[need_a_VR6]

[vague]I think they fixed that problem.[/vague]

[KingVR]

Another quick thing to add about the springs to consider:

If the OEM springs are designed to handle a certain amount of valve lift, then keep in mind that they had only considered a design that would handle a certain amount of RPM...or rather, cycles per second. At the engine speed 6,000 RPM means that each valve is opening and closing at the rate of 100 cycles every single second. To get an engine to operate at 9,000 RPM takes 50% more (obviously!) cycles each second making it 150 cycles each second. Try to visualize that for a moment. Now consider the fact that making a spring function in complete control 100 cycles/second cost X-number of dollars to engineer and produce. You can be assured that it cost MORE dollars to engineer and produce a spring that stays in control at an RPM higher than that which is needed and approved for by the bean-counters upstairs.