Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Links back to The Car Lounge (opens in same window)
    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 35 of 96

    Thread: Why use a timing belt instead of a timing chain?

    1. Member theguysmiley's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 23rd, 2003
      Location
      West Jordan, UT
      Posts
      2,833
      Vehicles
      2003 VW GTI 1.8t, 2001 BMW 650GS DAKAR
      02-11-2010 09:22 PM #1
      I am curious, and figured I'd throw this out there. Besides "reduced" noise, what is the rationale behind a car having a timing belt instead of a timing chain?

      With my limited experience it seems that a chain would be more durable, so you wouldn't have to be afraid of your belt wearing, snapping, etc. Of course, these belt problems could be avoided by checking it periodically, but I am genuinely curious -- since the price of belt failure can be steep, why not just use a chain?

      VS.

      "Where we're going, we don't need roads." - BMW F650GS DAKAR

    2. Member Fisherson's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 22nd, 2008
      Location
      Westwood, CA
      Posts
      1,845
      Vehicles
      '07 GTI (Sold.), '02 Miata (Sold.), '13 Scion FR-S
      02-11-2010 09:24 PM #2
      Yes.

    3. Member efrie's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 19th, 2008
      Location
      Arkansas
      Posts
      4,036
      Vehicles
      2000 7.3PSD, 99.5 7.3PSD, 2003 F150 FX4
      02-11-2010 09:24 PM #3
      Color me interested!

    4. Member GsR's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 18th, 2005
      Location
      Road rage, NJ
      Posts
      5,426
      Vehicles
      '11 GTI
      02-11-2010 09:25 PM #4
      belts are cheaper, lighter, don't need lubrication, no friction from guides?


      Modified by GsR at 9:28 PM 2-11-2010

    5. 02-11-2010 09:26 PM #5
      I know there *may* be one, but I really fail to see for so long cars used belts, especially on interface motors. Take my passats V6 for example. It takes many hours, and removing the front end to do the belt that has to be done every 60k!!! thats at least a grand!

      transverse cars are even worse because many times its a hugely difficult task to get the belt changed.

      Sorry give me a good chain with the increased noise anyday.


    6. 02-11-2010 09:27 PM #6
      leases last 36k miles?
      so longevity is not top on the list?
      1.8T never lose... 2.0 never win - Avus

      Enzodude.com
      there will always be a place for Enzodude

    7. Member
      Join Date
      Sep 28th, 2008
      Location
      Roy, WA
      Posts
      1,062
      Vehicles
      '95 Five.Oh, '90 F 3-Fiddy, '90 Protege LX
      02-11-2010 09:27 PM #7
      Less rotational mass/drag.
      It may be slow, but at least it's ugly!

    8. Member Mk2Fever's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 12th, 2005
      Location
      New York/New Orleans
      Posts
      2,253
      Vehicles
      S60R
      02-11-2010 09:27 PM #8
      Chains also probably cause a lot more damage if they wear out and blow up in the engine bay as opposed to belts

    9. Member theguysmiley's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 23rd, 2003
      Location
      West Jordan, UT
      Posts
      2,833
      Vehicles
      2003 VW GTI 1.8t, 2001 BMW 650GS DAKAR
      02-11-2010 09:28 PM #9
      Quote, originally posted by Jettavr666 »
      I know there *may* be one, but I really fail to see for so long cars used belts, especially on interface motors. Take my passats V6 for example. It takes many hours, and removing the front end to do the belt that has to be done every 60k!!! thats at least a grand!

      transverse cars are even worse because many times its a hugely difficult task to get the belt changed.

      Sorry give me a good chain with the increased noise anyday.

      I hear ya. My 1.8T crushed 10 valves after a timing belt install "slip-up." I can't tell you how many times I muttered under my breath wishing I just had a dang timing chain.

      "Where we're going, we don't need roads." - BMW F650GS DAKAR

    10. 02-11-2010 09:31 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by theguysmiley »

      I hear ya. My 1.8T crushed 10 valves after a timing belt install "slip-up." I can't tell you how many times I muttered under my breath wishing I just had a dang timing chain.


      exactly my old old jetta vr6 had a chain, and even with the guides that fell apart, the chain itself would rarely fail.


    11. Member dumpedmk3's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 3rd, 2008
      Location
      Florida
      Posts
      3,171
      Vehicles
      Muddy Ranger, LC3T mk3, Donk b5.5
      02-11-2010 09:31 PM #11
      Anyone who has ever done a timing chain on a Vr6, wishes they used a belt.

      Quote Originally Posted by pillows View Post
      yarr matey me pirate flag license plate be troublin to the sailors on the road, i be havin the same problems as ye
      .:LOWECLASS:.

    12. Member
      Join Date
      Sep 28th, 2008
      Location
      Roy, WA
      Posts
      1,062
      Vehicles
      '95 Five.Oh, '90 F 3-Fiddy, '90 Protege LX
      02-11-2010 09:33 PM #12
      Quote, originally posted by Mk2Fever »
      Chains also probably cause a lot more damage if they wear out and blow up in the engine bay as opposed to belts

      This is another one, best example I know of (and own) is the Toyota R series engine, the chain will get worn to the point the tensioner can't keep up, and especially on startup because the tensioner works off of oil pressure, the chain breaks ****. It'll wear into the guides to the point that they break in the later ones with plastic guides, then if that doesn't block an oil galley and cook your engine, it'll saw into the water jackets in the timing cover and unleash all that coolant into the oil, killing itself. Well, sometimes, my truck blew a head gasket once and had to endure a very watery oiled 20 mile ride home.

      It may be slow, but at least it's ugly!

    13. Member Burnitwithfire's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 14th, 2005
      Location
      Quebec, Canada
      Posts
      10,250
      Vehicles
      2010 Hyundai Accent 1992 Mazda Miata
      02-11-2010 09:33 PM #13
      The guides wear over time, the chains loosen and become noisy. If you don't replace the guides they'll break and wreak avoc on the engine. On a high power engine, I can see why a chain is preferable as it is stronger but on an econobox or compact a timing belt is more than enough and is cheaper to make.
      Quote Originally Posted by SAV912 View Post
      Going to church is bland. Eating vanilla ice cream is bland. Dating somebody from your local Ayn Rand book club is bland. This car makes all of those things seem as exciting as doing 12 lines of cocaine. With Katie Perry. While she's on fire...in Times Square. And you're naked.

    14. Member loudgli's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 3rd, 2005
      Location
      cbus, ohio
      Posts
      1,644
      Vehicles
      13 BRZ, 07 Rabbit
      02-11-2010 09:35 PM #14
      I dont know the answer but I do know timing chains dont last forever. I dont know for sure that they "stretch" but they do wear out guides and tensioners.

    15. Member 91gti_wolfsburg's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 15th, 2005
      Posts
      4,608
      Vehicles
      1983 Audi Coupe GT (With 4kq floor pans and running gear) 1991 GTI 1990 Audi V8Q 1997 Audi A8 Black
      02-11-2010 09:43 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by Mk2Fever »
      Chains also probably cause a lot more damage if they wear out and blow up in the engine bay as opposed to belts

      This.

      Also- cars that have chains typically have nylon guide rails that also act as tensioners. Factor in the issue that timing chains need to be run in oil, so add an oiling system for them.

      Some cars, (circa 2000 audi 4.2 V8, v6, and 1.8t) engines have a chain and a belt. Each cyl head has a single pulley for the belt and a chain between the two camshafts in each head. Chains are often touted to be a "lifetime" wear item, I have seen them fail much before the end of a vehicle's "lifetime." At any rate, the chains in these audi motors, are tensioned by a pair of hydraulic rams with nylon rails on both sides of the chain to advance or retard the intake cam timing.

      These nylon rails are the weak point. If you get an owner who uses cheap motor oil, which most people do, the rails wear out quickly, and become brittle. Eventually they break off and take the whole set of intake valves with them when the chain skips a few teeth. The other issue is that these tensioner rails are not replaceable by themselves (the dealer doesnt have a part number for them) so to replace the rails, you have to buy the whole tensioner/adjuster unit to the tune of $6-700 each.

      I'll take the belt thank you.


      VW VR6 timing chains are buried beneath the rear cover of the engine, which means that the engine or transmission has to come out to get to them. The chains are again said to be a lifetime part, but I, again, (comma use faux-pas) have seen tensioner rails worn completely out at 120Kmiles when the internals of the engine were as fresh as the day it rolled off the line.

      Belts on the other hand, are cheap, the rollers actually have bearings in them (as opposed to nylon friction rails), and in the grand scheme of things are pretty easy to change.

      Also- if a person pays attention to their scheduled service intervals and planned for a timing belt change (financially) it shouldn't be a big deal. Wheras a person who owns a car with a chain, and "lifetime" service interval comes into the dealer at 120k with bad noises and bent valves because the chain skipped a tooth, because their tensioner rails wore out, the dealer is just gonna shrug at them and try to sell them a new car.

      Sent from a unicorn's ass using rainbows and ****.
      GRIM waaay North

      Don't Call AAA, because I'm not coming right now.

    16. 02-11-2010 09:46 PM #16
      Belts have lower noise, are lighter and require no lubrication. Downside is timing belt jobs are required anywhere from 60-100k miles.

      Some engines are non interference, so if timing is lost, there is no internal engine damage.

      Timing gears are even noisier, but lasts the longest.


    17. Member 91gti_wolfsburg's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 15th, 2005
      Posts
      4,608
      Vehicles
      1983 Audi Coupe GT (With 4kq floor pans and running gear) 1991 GTI 1990 Audi V8Q 1997 Audi A8 Black
      02-11-2010 09:48 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by loudgli »
      I dont know the answer but I do know timing chains dont last forever. I dont know for sure that they "stretch" but they do wear out guides and tensioners.

      They do stretch, The result is retarded cam timing (possible spark too if that particular trigger is chain driven, see distributor VW VR6 motors) and loss of fuel economy, power, etcetera. I havent seen one fail BECAUSE of stretch, just destroyed rails.

      Sent from a unicorn's ass using rainbows and ****.
      GRIM waaay North

      Don't Call AAA, because I'm not coming right now.

    18. Member 91gti_wolfsburg's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 15th, 2005
      Posts
      4,608
      Vehicles
      1983 Audi Coupe GT (With 4kq floor pans and running gear) 1991 GTI 1990 Audi V8Q 1997 Audi A8 Black
      02-11-2010 09:50 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by 12v71 »
      Belts have lower noise, are lighter and require no lubrication. Downside is timing belt jobs are required anywhere from 60-100k miles.

      Some engines are non interference, so if timing is lost, there is no internal engine damage.

      Timing gears are even noisier, but lasts the longest.

      They (gears) also require the use of pushrods to operate the valvetrain which are woefully inefficient and severely limit the capabilities of the engine.

      If dodge had switched to an overhead cam 5 valve cylinder head design on the viper motor, it would probably be on the order of 8-900 all motor horsepower and maybe as much as an 8000 RPM redline, as opposed to the 6-7ish(?) redline and 5xx BHP it has now.


      Modified by 91gti_wolfsburg at 9:52 PM 2-11-2010

      Sent from a unicorn's ass using rainbows and ****.
      GRIM waaay North

      Don't Call AAA, because I'm not coming right now.

    19. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 16th, 2005
      Location
      Tennessee
      Posts
      63,535
      Vehicles
      88 F150, 04 RX8
      02-11-2010 10:00 PM #19
      Chains < belts for long term durability.

      Belts < chains for initial low engine noise and cheapness.

      |˙˙ʇǝuɹǝʇuı ǝɥʇ uo ʇxǝʇ uʍop ǝpısdn ɯopuɐɹ pɐǝɹ noʎ :ǝɯıʇ ǝǝɹɟ ɥɔnɯ ooʇ ʎɐʍ ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ןןǝʇ oʇ ʍoɥ˙˙˙|http://hotlinktest.com/

    20. Geriatric Member SSLByron's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 29th, 2004
      Location
      Annapolis, MD
      Posts
      36,996
      Vehicles
      '13 Focus, '08.5 MS3, '97 Wrangler, '90 Miata
      02-11-2010 10:01 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by 12v71 »
      Belts have lower noise, are lighter and require no lubrication. Downside is timing belt jobs are required anywhere from 60-100k miles.

      Some engines are non interference, so if timing is lost, there is no internal engine damage.

      Timing gears are even noisier, but lasts the longest.

      Bingo.

      Looking for a ratty Miata? My '90 is for sale.
      http://www.speedsportlife.com
      Quote Originally Posted by mhjett View Post
      4+ pages and at least 1 death threat in a compact-car comparison test thread - oh wait, this is TCL.

    21. Member 91gti_wolfsburg's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 15th, 2005
      Posts
      4,608
      Vehicles
      1983 Audi Coupe GT (With 4kq floor pans and running gear) 1991 GTI 1990 Audi V8Q 1997 Audi A8 Black
      02-11-2010 10:02 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by BRealistic »
      Chains > belts for long term durability.

      Belts > chains for initial low engine noise and cheapness.

      Fixed. You had Less than symbols as opposed to Greater than symbols.

      Sent from a unicorn's ass using rainbows and ****.
      GRIM waaay North

      Don't Call AAA, because I'm not coming right now.

    22. 02-11-2010 10:03 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by 91gti_wolfsburg »

      They (gears) also require the use of pushrods to operate the valvetrain which are woefully inefficient and severely limit the capabilities of the engine.

      If dodge had switched to an overhead cam 5 valve cylinder head design on the viper motor, it would probably be on the order of 8-900 all motor horsepower and maybe as much as an 8000 RPM redline, as opposed to the 6-7ish(?) redline and 5xx BHP it has now.

      There's timing gears on OHC engines, the Ford 300 cid comes to mind. Nascar engines can rev. The ZR-1 has 638 hp out of 6.2l. All with pushrods.


      Modified by 12v71 at 7:04 PM 2-11-2010


    23. 02-11-2010 10:04 PM #23
      Quote, originally posted by BRealistic »
      Chains > belts for long term durability.

      Belts > chains for initial low engine noise and cheapness.

      FTFY

      edit: dang beaten!


    24. Member GsR's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 18th, 2005
      Location
      Road rage, NJ
      Posts
      5,426
      Vehicles
      '11 GTI
      02-11-2010 10:04 PM #24
      Quote, originally posted by 12v71 »
      Belts have lower noise, are lighter and require no lubrication. Downside is timing belt jobs are required anywhere from 60-100k miles.

      Some engines are non interference, so if timing is lost, there is no internal engine damage.

      Timing gears are even noisier, but lasts the longest.

      any modern engines use timing gears?


    25. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 16th, 2005
      Location
      Tennessee
      Posts
      63,535
      Vehicles
      88 F150, 04 RX8
      02-11-2010 10:07 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by 91gti_wolfsburg »

      They (gears) also require the use of pushrods to operate the valvetrain which are woefully inefficient and severely limit the capabilities of the engine.

      If dodge had switched to an overhead cam 5 valve cylinder head design on the viper motor, it would probably be on the order of 8-900 all motor horsepower and maybe as much as an 8000 RPM redline, as opposed to the 6-7ish(?) redline and 5xx BHP it has now.

      But that MUCH larger engine would require a huge domed hood to cover.

      The pushrod engine works fine when you want buckets of right off idle torque in a physically compact V8 engine.

      |˙˙ʇǝuɹǝʇuı ǝɥʇ uo ʇxǝʇ uʍop ǝpısdn ɯopuɐɹ pɐǝɹ noʎ :ǝɯıʇ ǝǝɹɟ ɥɔnɯ ooʇ ʎɐʍ ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ןןǝʇ oʇ ʍoɥ˙˙˙|http://hotlinktest.com/

    26. Member blue70beetle's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 23rd, 2004
      Location
      Lafayette, IN
      Posts
      5,803
      Vehicles
      '00 XJ, '08 N* SRX4 (hers), '70 Beetle (rusty and parked)
      02-11-2010 10:07 PM #26
      If the OP thinks the Subaru timing belt setup he posted is bad, he should whine about the two extra cam pulleys (and another idler pulley too, IIRC) on their twin cam engines! FWIW, a chain setup for that engine would be just as complex (or even more, if they did it like the inline four he posted, with one chain to keep the cams timed together and another to drive them).

    27. Member 91gti_wolfsburg's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 15th, 2005
      Posts
      4,608
      Vehicles
      1983 Audi Coupe GT (With 4kq floor pans and running gear) 1991 GTI 1990 Audi V8Q 1997 Audi A8 Black
      02-11-2010 10:09 PM #27
      Quote, originally posted by 12v71 »

      There's timing gears on OHC engines, the Ford 300 cid comes to mind. Nascar engines can rev. The ZR-1 has 638 hp out of 6.2l. All with pushrods.


      Modified by 12v71 at 7:04 PM 2-11-2010

      Got a picture of the motor with the covers off?

      I've never worked on one.

      I always thought that ford's OHC motors all had chains.

      NASCAR teams also have buckets of money to put into their valvetrain to manufacture the components out of unobtanium to make them as light and friction free as possible. That tech will NEVER see the engine bay of a consumer vehicle.

      I'm admittedly not much of a GM guy, hasn't the zed-r-1 got a blower too?


      Modified by 91gti_wolfsburg at 10:13 PM 2-11-2010

      Sent from a unicorn's ass using rainbows and ****.
      GRIM waaay North

      Don't Call AAA, because I'm not coming right now.

    28. 02-11-2010 10:10 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by 12v71 »

      There's timing gears on OHC engines, the Ford 300 cid comes to mind. Nascar engines can rev. The ZR-1 has 638 hp out of 6.2l. All with pushrods.

      The Ford 300 cubic inch six cylinder truck engine? That was a pushrod engine.

      You can use gear drive to an overhead camshaft, but it is expensive and can be noisy unless even more expensive stuff is done to take up the inherent backlash (clearance) between gear teeth.

      Notable production OHC engines with gear drive to the camshafts: VW Touareg V10 TDI, VW Touareg R5 TDI, Honda VFR motorcycles a couple generations ago (the last generation reverted to a chain).


    29. Member
      Join Date
      Jan 27th, 2003
      Posts
      1,355
      Vehicles
      Toyota Sienna Crossover SUV,Nissan GT-R
      02-11-2010 10:15 PM #29
      Belt failures in interference engines help manufacturers sell more parts in the future.

    30. Member 91gti_wolfsburg's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 15th, 2005
      Posts
      4,608
      Vehicles
      1983 Audi Coupe GT (With 4kq floor pans and running gear) 1991 GTI 1990 Audi V8Q 1997 Audi A8 Black
      02-11-2010 10:17 PM #30
      These are fun:

      Sent from a unicorn's ass using rainbows and ****.
      GRIM waaay North

      Don't Call AAA, because I'm not coming right now.

    31. Member
      Join Date
      Apr 27th, 2006
      Location
      Winnipeg
      Posts
      246
      Vehicles
      2010 Golf TDI M6
      02-11-2010 10:19 PM #31

    32. Member blue70beetle's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 23rd, 2004
      Location
      Lafayette, IN
      Posts
      5,803
      Vehicles
      '00 XJ, '08 N* SRX4 (hers), '70 Beetle (rusty and parked)
      02-11-2010 10:24 PM #32
      Quote, originally posted by 91gti_wolfsburg »
      These are fun:


      Still falls many pulleys short of a twin-cam Subaru...but thanks for playing

    33. Member Burnitwithfire's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 14th, 2005
      Location
      Quebec, Canada
      Posts
      10,250
      Vehicles
      2010 Hyundai Accent 1992 Mazda Miata
      02-11-2010 10:33 PM #33
      Quote, originally posted by seftonm »
      V10 TDI uses timing gears.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfuNppz1GVc#t=3m


      Nice!!! I didn't think there were that many gears. That's a lot of rotating mass.

      Quote Originally Posted by SAV912 View Post
      Going to church is bland. Eating vanilla ice cream is bland. Dating somebody from your local Ayn Rand book club is bland. This car makes all of those things seem as exciting as doing 12 lines of cocaine. With Katie Perry. While she's on fire...in Times Square. And you're naked.

    34. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 16th, 2005
      Location
      Tennessee
      Posts
      63,535
      Vehicles
      88 F150, 04 RX8
      02-11-2010 10:35 PM #34
      Quote, originally posted by GoFaster »

      The Ford 300 cubic inch six cylinder truck engine? That was a pushrod engine.

      You can use gear drive to an overhead camshaft, but it is expensive and can be noisy unless even more expensive stuff is done to take up the inherent backlash (clearance) between gear teeth.

      Notable production OHC engines with gear drive to the camshafts: VW Touareg V10 TDI, VW Touareg R5 TDI, Honda VFR motorcycles a couple generations ago (the last generation reverted to a chain).

      I like gear drive when it's simple (like the 300 6). I can't remember the last time I heard of a 300 6 having a timing (gear) issue. That just doesn't happen.
      But the engine/vehicle designers can lean more towards something less durable IF they make it easy to maintain. But that's an IF that more like a yeah right, NEVER.

      |˙˙ʇǝuɹǝʇuı ǝɥʇ uo ʇxǝʇ uʍop ǝpısdn ɯopuɐɹ pɐǝɹ noʎ :ǝɯıʇ ǝǝɹɟ ɥɔnɯ ooʇ ʎɐʍ ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ןןǝʇ oʇ ʍoɥ˙˙˙|http://hotlinktest.com/

    35. 02-11-2010 10:42 PM #35
      What do you know, the Ford 300 is really a pushrod engine. That engine is still in use by UPS, powers the airplane tugs at airports and has uses in industrial applications. Ford should have never killed it.


    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •