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    Thread: .450 Bushmaster

    1. Member NHDUBN#2's Avatar
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      02-18-2010 07:59 PM #1
      Looking to get a 450 Bushmaster upper. Does anyone have one or has used one and can give me some incite.


      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel! View Post
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    2. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      02-20-2010 10:50 AM #2
      Quote, originally posted by NHDUBN#2 »
      Looking to get a 450 Bushmaster upper. Does anyone have one or has used one and can give me some incite.

      whenever i see these boutique calibers all i can picture is a big convention center full of AR rifle manufacturers. instead of engineers and professional businessmen instead i visualize a room full of schizophrenic halfwits.

      then i imagine a distinguished gentleman at a podium giving a presentation which raises questions to the possibility of faster-than-light communications. all throughout the presentation he pops up slides which pose questions to challenge the audience's concept of physics. at the end of his presentation the gentleman brings the lights up and then asks if there are any questions.

      all of a sudden the half-witted audience starts yelling out phrases like:

      "Why are clown shoes flying rapidly around the moon?"
      ".204 Ruger!"
      "Were those GOATS? There are GOATS traveling back in time!"
      "450 BUSHMASTER!"
      "Cheese makes sleeping fun?"
      "6.5 Grendel!"
      "Once I ate twelve slices of toast once then had a stomach ache."
      "6.8SPC!"

      after a minute of this disturbance the gentleman figures out that he's speaking to a mentally challenged bunch which can't focus on anything. after keeping his cool he yells:

      "WERE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS GOING ON???"

      so there. that's my take on .450 Bushmaster. it's something that should have stayed in crayon drawing form but some engineer collaborated with a bean counter and gave it the go-ahead. it's the answer to the question that nobody asked. there are plenty of other existing cartridges out there that can do the same job and have been doing it for a hundred years.

      obin

      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    3. Member WhoIsJohnGalt's Avatar
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      02-20-2010 11:06 AM #3
      Well that's a unique perspective Obin...

      I don't have any experience with the .450 Bushmaster, but I do have a .458 SOCOM SBR. I didn't buy it to fill any specific need other than it being fun to shoot. It is a very good hunting round at distances up to say 200 yards, but I don't hunt. I bought it just to have something a little different and fun and it definitely delivers in that regard. If you are interested in big-bore AR's for that reason too, I say go for it. I hope you reload though, because factory ammo is scarce and very pricey. My cost to reload my .458S is still around $1.50 a round, but that's almost half the cost of factory.


    4. Member seoulstice's Avatar
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      02-20-2010 12:30 PM #4
      ^ Exactly, not everyone buys a rifle to punch paper with...and just because I can't hunt with an AR[or any other semi] in my state doesn't mean that people in other states don't.

      BTW, .204 Ruger is a pretty popular round. Maybe not so much as it's .22 caliber bigger brothers such as the .223/22-250 but I hear plenty about it, most every rifle manufacturer offers one, and it's popular with varmint hunters I know.


    5. Global Moderator .:RDriver's Avatar
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      02-20-2010 02:15 PM #5
      You see Obin, I picture that scenario every time I hear of people discussing buying some strange and out there no one has any need for, commie bloc weapon.

    6. 02-20-2010 02:31 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by .:RDriver »
      You see Obin, I picture that scenario every time I hear of people discussing buying some strange and out there no one has any need for, commie bloc weapon.

      lolwned


    7. Member NHDUBN#2's Avatar
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      02-20-2010 04:56 PM #7
      OH SNAP!!! LOLOL
      Quote, originally posted by .:RDriver »
      You see Obin, I picture that scenario every time I hear of people discussing buying some strange and out there no one has any need for, commie bloc weapon.

      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel! View Post
      I have been drunk many a time, but I can't say I've ever had the urge to sexually abuse a wild animal.
      |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    8. Member AZMCS's Avatar
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      02-20-2010 05:40 PM #8
      Entertaining, if not a bit naive' Obin.

      Having shot a 458SOCOM, 6.8SPC, and other "odd" chamberings I can say they are fun, and for the person who wants to do the wildcat thing it is worth it (though none of these are true wildcats). Also, the ironic diorama that Obin paints ignores the fact that the vast majority of "standard" chamberings today arose from someone with the motivation, the knowledge, and the willingness to form something new out of brass. True, some has arisen from the factory farms, but does that devalue them at all?

      300 Win-Mag anyone?
      270 Winchester?
      243 Winchester?
      Even the new hot girl, 338 Lapua.

      All outgrowths of prior cases, necked, shortened, lengthed, shouldered, etc, etc....

      I readily admit, and the history of case sizes shows, that there are very very few new ideas. I agree also that the marketing giant that is modern firearms sales drives many of these one-off chamberings to notoriety, but in the end we all gain, as we are able to choose what fits our shooting styles, goals, and aspirations.

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    9. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 08:24 AM #9
      Quote, originally posted by AZMCS »
      I readily admit, and the history of case sizes shows, that there are very very few new ideas. I agree also that the marketing giant that is modern firearms sales drives many of these one-off chamberings to notoriety, but in the end we all gain, as we are able to choose what fits our shooting styles, goals, and aspirations.

      the oddball AR15 case sizes all orginate from a major design flaw in the AR15 that cartridge designers have had to deal with as a result. rather than making the bottom of the receiver flat and having the magazine well be part of the upper receiver: the magazine well is part of the bottom receiver and designed with only one caliber in mind: 5.56x45. this was one of the long list of comprimises when the rifle was scaled down from 7.62 NATO.

      answers to questions never asked like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC arose from the idea that people wanted a more powerful cartridge but it had to fit in a STANAG magazine. that's all well and good if you ignore logistics and want to build a gun for an audience measured in the hundreds rather than the millions.

      the smartest idea would have been what MGI does or just having the lower receiver end right in front of the trigger group. that way any caliber change would correspond to a magazine change which would correspond to an upper receiver change. changing calibers would be even easier than it is today and the weapon would accept AK mags, G3 mags, FAL mags, M14 mags, or even belt feed mechanisms with no hassle.

      but no... we're stuck with boutique rifles in calibers where the person who takes this wildcat caliber home unknowingly becomes the only source of ammunition for the rifle in a very short while. dies, brass, and sometime bullets become next to impossible to find and the gun becomes a safe queen and then is eventually sold off when the owner gets sick and tired of the novelty. it's fun for bolt action varmint guns; not fun for semi-autos.

      .30 Herrett Rimless Tactical anyone? someone thought that would be a cool caliber for the AR15. how'd that one turn out? it turned out the same way that .450 Bushmaster will in 5 years.

      obin

      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    10. Member NHDUBN#2's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 11:22 AM #10
      Dam Obin you know how to plead a case. You make many very good points!!

      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel! View Post
      I have been drunk many a time, but I can't say I've ever had the urge to sexually abuse a wild animal.
      |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    11. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 03:43 PM #11
      thanks! one more reason NOT to buy a 450 Bushmaster actually points at the reason they invented the caliber in the first place. the caliber was designed as a big game hunting caliber. well, the funny part is that there already was a big game hunting AR out there: the AR10.

      take a look at the ballistics of the round:

      .450 Bushmaster 250gr Remington Soft Point Core Lokt:
      -2,686 ft lbs of energy at muzzle
      -893 ft lbs of energy at 300 yards
      complete rifle is $1,500:
      http://www.ableammo.com/catalo...05188

      .308 Winchester 150gr Winchester Supreme Elite XP3 (just for a quick example):
      -2658 ft lbs of energy at muzzle
      -1,650 ft lbs of energy at 300 yards
      complete rifle is $1390:
      http://www.ableammo.com/catalo...13252

      so the AR10 is cheaper with better ballistics and easy to find ammo. what was the reason for the 450 Bushmaster again? the ability to change the upper is pointless because you've made so many compromises just in order to get there. just get the AR10 and do everything the 450 Bushmaster can. Bushmaster even makes a great AR10:

      http://www.bushmaster.com/cata...0.asp

      obin


      Modified by Obin Robinson at 3:45 PM 2-21-2010

      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    12. 02-21-2010 05:14 PM #12
      Just to add...I would really stray away from any boutique rounds.

      My buddy shoots 6.8 SPC and its sad to see him shooting a .22LR upper because he can't afford to run 6.8. He's getting some reloading gear.

      Unless you're doing just some bench-shooting, I'd avoid anything boutique. When I considered ammo, I considered mainly:

      1) cost
      2) availability
      3) magazines (cost/availability)
      4) recoil
      5) reliability (history etc.)
      6) combat accuracy
      7) how much I can carry/cope with/shoot.

      I'm a scrawnier guy so I go with 9mm, and 5.45 AK. Both are readily available, cheap, easy to find, and magazines etc. are copious, and reasonably priced. The .308 is proven/available/reasonably priced/can be found during a zombie apocalypse etc.


    13. Member AZMCS's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 06:30 PM #13
      Great points Obin and a great discussion. The one-off case sizes are obviously not going to be big market shares. And the point is well taken that you are committed to something that may be hard to find and use in the future. Having said that, some outgrowth can occur and a great round can be had that started out as a AR 15 design, ala' 458SOCOM. Great short to mid range hunting cartridge designed to fit AR mags and now being put in bolt guns dedicated to hunting. Expensive yes, not a WSM availability? Yes, but some folks just want something a bit different than the next guy. Heck, this forum is dedicated to a car company that has walked to that beat for 50+ years. If we all wanted the cheapest to service, easiest to find, and least hassle cars, we would all be driving Toyota (well, up until the last month or so).

      Again, great discussion.

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    14. Member NHDUBN#2's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 06:40 PM #14
      Ok this being said about the AR10. Can you use this as Hunting rifle? At $1400 should i just get a R700 and good optic for the same $$?

      As for my extra AR lower i think i will just do a SBR.


      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel! View Post
      I have been drunk many a time, but I can't say I've ever had the urge to sexually abuse a wild animal.
      |-o-| (-o-) |-o-|

    15. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 06:43 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by AZMCS »
      Yes, but some folks just want something a bit different than the next guy.

      oh i fully agree. i own a Tikka LSA-55 in 6mm Remington. I am my own ammo supplier and I've never bought ammo for this gun at a store. this isn't a problem for a bolt action varmint gun which doesn't see more than 100 rounds a year. this also isn't a problem for me because i reload all my ammunition anyways. the 6mm Remington brass isn't either hard to find or expensive. the bullets are .243 so they are very common.

      if you want to own something bizarre and oddball i'm totally for it. my wife and i have a gun collection which revolves around unusual guns. i have the 1940s "tacticool" rifle (a Mossberg 152) along with a 1990s "too sinister for Democrats" rifle (a Mitchell PPS30). i fully enjoy these odd guns but they do use easy to find .22LR ammo.

      for something like the .450 Bushmaster i just question the overall price. i'll buy damn near any gun if it's unusual and cheap. unusual and expensive? not really. if we wanted to i'm sure all of us could come up with a quick list of no less than 20 different guns we'd all rather own for less than the cost of the .450 Bushmaster. chances are that at least 15 of those 20 would have superior ballistics as well.

      obin

      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    16. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 06:44 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by NHDUBN#2 »
      Ok this being said about the AR10. Can you use this as Hunting rifle? At $1400 should i just get a R700 and good optic for the same $$?

      As for my extra AR lower i think i will just do a SBR.

      AR10 can be used for hunting. Remington makes one just for that purpose:
      http://www.remington.com/produ....aspx

      for $1,400 a loaded R700 is a good buy.

      obin

      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    17. Member AZMCS's Avatar
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      02-21-2010 07:31 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by Obin Robinson »

      for something like the .450 Bushmaster i just question the overall price. i'll buy damn near any gun if it's unusual and cheap. unusual and expensive?

      Agreed. Though as I said, I think the "machine-that-is-Bushmaster-marketing", has a huge hand in the MSRP of this rifle. People think odd or unique need be expensive. So not true. If someone wants odd, how about 338Spectre? 10mm Magnum necked and shouldered for a 338 300gr SMK bullet running at 950fps and suppressed. Even with suppressor I will have less into that setup than the Bushy is....

      And like you, every single case that goes through that is formed by my hands.

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