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    Thread: Building a Street Prepared Mk1 TT

    1. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-12-2011 08:55 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by DIAF View Post
      I'm going to be driving a CSP car @ the meadowlands this Saturday (9/17) - come play.
      I'm going to try my best to make it ! Believe it or not I haven't autocrossed since WF and that was my season opener. Let me guess, another miata? Is the car somewhat nationally competitive (it's always nice to baseline against competitive cars)?.

    2. 09-13-2011 06:30 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by madmax199 View Post
      I'm going to try my best to make it ! Believe it or not I haven't autocrossed since WF and that was my season opener. Let me guess, another miata? Is the car somewhat nationally competitive (it's always nice to baseline against competitive cars)?.
      It's an NC, and while not full tilt is still pretty quick. I PAX about the same in it as I do in the RX-8.

      I'm pretty excited about driving it. Also, we should have a 60+ second course this week

    3. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-13-2011 12:54 PM #103
      Thanks for the feedback on the steering. I'll continue to pay more attention to it and see how it pans out.

      I checked out ForceFed's site and it looks like they sell the BFI inserts for all three mounts. That's what I am planning to use in the pendulum. If the engine & trans mounts weren't so new, I'd consider it.I have a spare, worn set that I can have ready to go when the time comes. I did not know about the 'phantom knock' but that is a very useful link, thanks for that.

      I've been re-reading some of the thread because some pictures were snapped this weekend that show the car tripoding (or at least, coming way way to close to tripoding). Looks like there might be some adjustments to make...

      Currently:
      KW CS shocks on OEM valving
      750 lb front, 1100 lb rear springs
      H&R 25 mm front sway, softest setting
      H&R 21 mm rear sway, stiffest setting

    4. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-13-2011 06:41 PM #104
      [QUOTE=stripethree;73517225]
      I've been re-reading some of the thread because some pictures were snapped this weekend that show the car tripoding (or at least, coming way way to close to tripoding). Looks like there might be some adjustments to make...

      Currently:
      KW CS shocks on OEM valving
      750 lb front, 1100 lb rear springs
      H&R 25 mm front sway, softest setting
      H&R 21 mm rear sway, stiffest setting
      Last edited by madmax199; 09-13-2011 at 06:48 PM.

    5. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-14-2011 12:43 PM #105
      After reading your front sway bar modification, I have been considering doing something similar to the front at least, since swapping that bar requires dropping the subframe. If I do that, I might as well be ready to swap the control arms right? I think I need to make adjustments at both ends of the car as you suggest - reason I upped the rear bar was that I was getting no rotation out of the car. That seems to have been the incorrect adjustment.

      Regarding spring rates, you'll get no argument from me there. I'll try upping the rear rate and see what it gains me - reading your linked thread you are way ahead of me in terms of figuring out this platform. I'll likely need more shock also, as I'm still on the OEM valving for the KWs. The springs that came with them, and that I assume the shocks are valved for, are much, much softer. I am curious about the front rate, since I would think the R32 may require a little bit more than the turbo TT in order to be able to handle the extra weight. That is, of course, assuming the weight difference is significant. If I recall correctly my car currently puts about 1050# over the driver wheel and 980# or so over the passenger wheel.

      Since you asked, I'll certainly throw out more details on my setup, I did not want to assume and clog up your build thread unsolicited.

      For wheels & tires I run et23 17x9 TD Pro Race 1.2 with Hankook Z214 275/40s. I also run 8mm spacers up front to clear the spring perch. The car does have a Peloquin up front but the OEM diff out back. Was there ever any definitive ruling on the Haldex controllers, I seem to recall folks writing letters and such but that so far, it was not kosher for *SP? Front camber is at -2.4 and rear is at -3.3. I thought I'd be able to get more front camber out of the KW's with the top mount, but apparently not.

      The pictures below will get you an idea of ride height, and I can post accurate numbers when they are in front of me at home. This platform does not like to be lowered all that much, and I am also cautious of fender to tire contact, even through the fenders have been pulled.

      Pictures from this past Sunday follow. The front rebound as cranked down quite a bit since the surface in Phoenix is really bumpy. Hopefully someone will be taking pictures at the next Tucson event as our surface is much, much smoother.

      Lifting the rear leg...


      Not me driving, and a different part of the course, but similar result...


      Decent shot of the front outside tire loaded up


      There's more here from various events this year if you want to check them out but I think those 3 might be the best illustrations of the behaviors we're discussing.

    6. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-15-2011 07:08 PM #106
      You got a good setup to build from, I see a lot of positives from the action shots. You have good front roll control (the 750lbs springs are doing their job and seem about perfect even with the extra front weight that the R carry). What you need to do is downgrade the rear swaybar rate to stop the jacking effect and the resulting tripod. You definitely need to increase the rear springs rate too, when you do so, you will need to have them revalved for the choosen rate. You will also benefit from the front swaybar mod and it's fairly easy to do.

      IMO you need to take care of your alignment, -3.3 degrees in the back is out of control. If you don't have a way to adjust rear camber, I have recently started building adjustable control arms that addressed the known issues of the existing aftermarket ones. The front could use more camber than what the plates can do and that is why I built the ball joint adjusters that are posted in this thread.

      I previously wrote a letter about the haldex controler, from the response I got they didn't fully understood how the unit works in our cars and asked for more info, wich I never provided. I need to pursue the matter as there is a good deal of performance to be gained from it.
      Last edited by madmax199; 09-15-2011 at 08:27 PM.

    7. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-16-2011 11:49 AM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by madmax199 View Post
      IMO you need to take care of your alignment, -3.3 degrees in the back is out of control. If you don't have a way to adjust rear camber, I have recently started building adjustable control arms that addressed the known issues of the existing aftermarket ones. The front could use more camber than what the plates can do and that is why I built the ball joint adjusters that are posted in this thread.
      I do have adjustable LCAs, I think I just went too far down a rabbit hole trying to work things out with rear camber. It needs to be brought back in.

    8. Member Draxus's Avatar
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      09-16-2011 02:47 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by madmax199 View Post
      You got a good setup to build from, I see a lot of positives from the action shots. You have good front roll control (the 750lbs springs are doing their job and seem about perfect even with the extra front weight that the R carry). What you need to do is downgrade the rear swaybar rate to stop the jacking effect and the resulting tripod. You definitely need to increase the rear springs rate too, when you do so, you will need to have them revalved for the choosen rate. You will also benefit from the front swaybar mod and it's fairly easy to do.

      IMO you need to take care of your alignment, -3.3 degrees in the back is out of control. If you don't have a way to adjust rear camber, I have recently started building adjustable control arms that addressed the known issues of the existing aftermarket ones. The front could use more camber than what the plates can do and that is why I built the ball joint adjusters that are posted in this thread.

      I previously wrote a letter about the haldex controler, from the response I got they didn't fully understood how the unit works in our cars and asked for more info, wich I never provided. I need to pursue the matter as there is a good deal of performance to be gained from it.
      Details on Arms?
      Quote Originally Posted by BlownR View Post
      I have seen several open slots, usually after tequila. Wait, I think that's different.
      MKIV DBP .:R32 | Photo Gallery
      Projects | Custom Exhaust : It Begins | Solid MKIV Sub-Frame Mounts ||Build Journal| Draxus's GoKart

    9. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-16-2011 05:47 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Draxus View Post
      Details on Arms?
      -all steel (thick 1 1/4" DOM) with no welds on center tube to break (aluminum tube have the inner threads deteriorate overtime)

      -polyurethane (stage 2 grade) bushings instead of the problematic sperical bearings that have a low street life and get noisy.

      -grease fitting on the poly end to keep it lubricated and quiet

      - not heavier than OEM despite the all steel construction

      - 5 year warranty no question asked.



      The arms


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      Grease fitting so the poly-bushings could be lubricated for a permanent noise free operation




      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us


      Gold anodized to keep the thick 1 1/4 DOM steel from surface rust(interior threads are coated with a permanent dry lubricant).


      Uploaded with ImageShack.us
      Last edited by madmax199; 11-12-2011 at 12:58 PM.

    10. Member Draxus's Avatar
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      09-16-2011 05:50 PM #110
      Those are nice.

      How much they running? PM I assume.
      Quote Originally Posted by BlownR View Post
      I have seen several open slots, usually after tequila. Wait, I think that's different.
      MKIV DBP .:R32 | Photo Gallery
      Projects | Custom Exhaust : It Begins | Solid MKIV Sub-Frame Mounts ||Build Journal| Draxus's GoKart

    11. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-16-2011 10:09 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by Draxus View Post
      Those are nice.

      How much they running? PM I assume.
      Yes Sir, I don't want to be in violation with forum rules since I'm not an advertiser !

      PM me if you're interested!

    12. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-17-2011 05:11 PM #112
      So I completely flushed my power steering fluid this morning at the suggestion of another local autocrosser, especially when after reviewing all my records I realized I'd never changed it in 93k miles. Whoa was it horribly brown. Driving around my neighborhood streets the steering definitely feels better. Next local event is next Sunday, so we will see how it fairs when really pushed. I also dropped the rear sway bar to soft and took out a full degree of negative camber. I will likely order 1300# rear springs to try, but that may be too many variables to change for one event even if I get them in time.

    13. 09-17-2011 08:00 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by madmax199 View Post
      Yes Sir, I don't want to be in violation with forum rules since I'm not an advertiser !

      PM me if you're interested!
      I should report you to a moderator for sleeping in when Jeff went to get you!

    14. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-17-2011 09:05 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by DIAF View Post
      I should report you to a moderator for sleeping in when Jeff went to get you!
      I'm such a punk, I did a little too much the night before !
      I wanted to play with you badly in CSP, how did you do?

    15. Member XvwX's Avatar
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      09-19-2011 02:17 PM #115
      So when I am in a fast slolum I notice it seems like my power steering can't keep up. You think that new fluid would help that? I've put 60k on my car and I doubt the PO did it.

    16. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-19-2011 07:53 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by stripethree View Post
      So I completely flushed my power steering fluid this morning at the suggestion of another local autocrosser, especially when after reviewing all my records I realized I'd never changed it in 93k miles. Whoa was it horribly brown. Driving around my neighborhood streets the steering definitely feels better. Next local event is next Sunday, so we will see how it fairs when really pushed. I also dropped the rear sway bar to soft and took out a full degree of negative camber. I will likely order 1300# rear springs to try, but that may be too many variables to change for one event even if I get them in time.
      Keep us posted on the result of the changes. It would be nice if you could do them at an event (at least the spring swap and swaybar change), that way we can quantify how much time is gained in optimizing the platform's wheel rate.

    17. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-19-2011 08:02 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by XvwX View Post
      So when I am in a fast slolum I notice it seems like my power steering can't keep up. You think that new fluid would help that? I've put 60k on my car and I doubt the PO did it.
      A good operating steering system is always good (leak free with fresh fluid at specified levels). However, I still think the enginners didn't specifically design the steering system with autocross and fast steering reaction/recovery in mind.

    18. Member XvwX's Avatar
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      09-22-2011 08:01 AM #118
      I kinda fitured they wouldn't design the ultimate motor sports car (Mk4 VR6 Wagon) with such a steering system.

      Nonetheless, this will be on my list of off-season jobs. Thanks!

    19. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-26-2011 01:01 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by madmax199 View Post
      Keep us posted on the result of the changes. It would be nice if you could do them at an event (at least the spring swap and swaybar change), that way we can quantify how much time is gained in optimizing the platform's wheel rate.
      Yesterday's event was a mixed bag.

      Steering: significantly better. Power steering can still be overworked, but I think that has to do with more input that should be necessary. There are some suspension issues such that the car just doesn't want to turn.

      Brakes: no better than before. I might look into a different setup for at least the front; currently on OEM style rotors that are slotted and drilled paired with Hawk HPS pads. Pedal feel is crap even with completely new fluid and the car just doesn't stop at well as it should for having such a huge brake setup up front.

      I did not make any swaybar or spring changes at the event, as I ended up focusing on having other folks drive and evaluate the car as well as doing some car hopping myself. I got a run in the current DSP champ car (good to have Rowse as a local competitor!) and wow. Doug also ran in my car, as well as two other folks, and provided some good suspension feedback.

      My car seems to need a good bit more front camber. At lower pressures there is grip but the tires are rolling over when pushed to their limits. That could also, perhaps, be the compound (Hankook) or the amount of sidewall (275/40) yielding too much deflection. At higher pressures there is still good grip but it is too easy to ask for more than is available and the front washes out. The outside shoulders will cord (~45 runs on them) if I run them again without flipping them.

      I don't think I have posted the weights on my car, but here they are...
      With about 4 gallons of gas:
      w/out driver - 1021# DF, 1002# PF, 589# DR, 612# PR, 3224# total
      w/driver - 1061# DF, 1024# PF, 642# DR, 633# PR, 3380# total

      I think my next move might be a battery and seats to drop weight. The suspension and steering need work, but it may not make sense to do that tuning, drop weight, and have to do it again.

      Next event for me is back in Phoenix on Oct 9th.

    20. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      09-26-2011 08:16 PM #120
      Before you have to do it twice, optimize your spring rates first before you attack your camber. Back when I ran 685/1150 lbs springs, I needed -4.6 degrees of camber to even out the temperature spread across the front tires on asphalt (concrete needed 5+ degrees). Now, with 700/1300 springs, I only need -2.6 degrees of camber to have that same temp spread (asphalt).

      Last year with top down and 1/3 of a tank (I have since removed lots of weight and need to do it again):
      w/o driver- 955# DF, 1027# PF, 681# DR, 582# PR, 3246# total
      with driver- 1023# DF, 1044# PF, 730# DR, 607# PR, 3404# total
      Our cars are very similar in weight and distribution, and both could use to drop some lbs.
      What seats are you going for? I'm set into getting Corbeau clubman because they are light, will fit me and the roadster interior and budget oriented. I run a 15lbs Deka in the OEM location because I didn't want to add 5lbs of extra weight to relocate.

      HPS pads are not going to cut it on a front heavy 3000+ lbs car. At least move to the HP+, I personally love the EBC red over the HP+ because they stay clamping hard to the end of a heavy braking course (HP+ used to let me down at the end of some runs with the evo at similar weight/distribution). I have also heard good things about carbotech AX6 on a few autocrossed TT in SM. I haven't tried them personally since the HP REDs work so well but they are worth looking at.

      To be honest, I think you could use more front tires. The 275s are not going to cut it at that weight, the 295X17 Hoosiers are my new favorite tires for the front (285/18 would work well too).
      How much time is your car giving to the BMW?

    21. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-27-2011 01:33 PM #121
      Agreed on the springs and I will try them back to back at my next event.

      For seats I think I am going with the Corbeau FX1 Pro. I like how they fit me and have heard good feedback from several local folks who have them. For the price they are a great weight also and with how heavy the R seats are, it might be pushing a 100# weight loss. I will likely be picking up a secondhand Odyssey battery from another Tucson board member

      Doug made the same recommendation for brake pads (to go to HP+ at least), so I am going to move in that direction. I am still looking around at the pedal feel issues but it doesn't look like there's a good fix. Folks running BBKs, new master cylinders still have a good bit of the soft pedal even on new fluid. I will see if any new solutions have come about.

      As for the tires, that is an interesting point. When I run out one of these sets of Hankooks I am going to try something else (Hooisers) and will have to go to a different size since I'm not interested in buying yet another set of wheels.

      This past weekend my car gave up 3 seconds to the BMW which took 1000 PAX with a 55.458.

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      09-28-2011 10:00 AM #122
      Hi Stripethree-
      late to the thread and honestly I haven't read it all, but have you replaced your brake lines with some braded steel ones yet or are you still running OEM?

      Some upgraded lines might help you with pedal feel.
      "We'll not risk another frontal assault... that rabbit's DYNAMITE!"

    23. Member stripethree's Avatar
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      09-28-2011 12:46 PM #123
      ^ Yes, I've had them for quite a while - front and rear - and didn't feel that they had much of an effect.

    24. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      10-10-2011 02:06 PM #124
      10/09/11

      I just clocked two events in the past weekends and both of them were big eye openers.

      Event #1
      Rained the night before and it was not sunny or hot enough to fully dry the lot. On top of that, my ABS light was flashing and I had no AWD (abs fuse took a crap on me for some reason). Although the car was still fast, I realised that the OEM Electronic differential lock (EDL) does not work as I thought it did. The car pushed a lot and I had front wheel spin everywhere, even in third gear going almost straight. The car is going to be a lot faster with a true LSD up front, a gear type would work fine because I'll never pick up a front wheel. This is going be a priority for next season.

      Event #2
      My local SCCA ran a "mirrorkhana" after their regular autocross. The start and finish gates are looped together to make an auto-x circuit. Two cars are paired at different starting points, chasing each other; the first car to make it back to it's starting point, after a full lap, wins. My problem with the format is that the winner stays until he gets eliminated. I was sent in early, and after knocking 7 cars out, I had to quit because the car was getting hot from the constant hotlapping. I was allowed to enter again in a loser bracket but suffered the same faith. I got through 8 cars and my temp gauge was at 3/4, even with the HVAC kicking and the fans on high speed. The evo that won the event got through 13 cars without breaking a sweat and can't believe the TT has such a weak cooling system. I am going to put a Valeo 3 row radiator and a lower temp thermostat to see if that improves the situation. If that fails, I'm going to have to seperate the oil and cooling system (delete the oil/heat exchanger) and run an external oil cooler.



      Edit
      : It is to be noted that front tire pressure on the 295s need to be bumped to 31-32 psi as opposed to the 29 psi that worked on the 315s.
      Last edited by madmax199; 10-12-2011 at 10:04 PM.

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      10-17-2011 09:38 AM #125
      Just to highlight that the roadster is 50kg heavier than coupe due to the additional underbody strengthening.
      Steve

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