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    Thread: 04 passat tiptronic - hard shift 5-4

    1. 07-08-2010 11:57 AM #1
      Guys,

      Sorry, I am not really knowledgeable about automatic transmissions (stick to stick yet), I bought a car for my sister (2004 passat 1.8T 5-speed tiptronic) and did not notice the weird problem with the tranny during the test-drive.

      The problem is that there is a hard shift from 5th to 4th gear when you are slowing down.
      I know it is exactly 5-4 because I move the lever to +/- mode and see the 5th gear on the dash display. Then you just slow down until the tranny decides to down shift and it makes it pretty hard so that you feel it as a push. 4-3 and 3-2 shifts are OK. Note, if I drive on the 5th gear in +/- mode, then kick down with manual downshift then the 5-4 switch is smooth, it only happens when you are not touching the accelerator.

      When I have read the codes via VAG-COM, I got this for the tranny module:

      Control Module Part Number: 3B0 927 156 AM
      Component and/or Version: AG5 01V 1.8l5VT USA 1212
      Software Coding: 0001004
      Work Shop Code: WSC 05311
      1 Fault Found:
      17095 - Transmission Fluid Temp Sensor (G93): Implausible Signal
      P0711 - 003 - Mechanical Failure - Intermittent

      I searched thru the forums and some people said it might be a low ATF level. I checked and added ATF (properly), cleared the codes, but the code came back.

      Do i need to replace the wiring harness as ELSA recommends in case of a non-working temp sensor?
      I doubt it will solve the problem of 5-4 hardshift though.

      Any good advice, guys?

    2. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      07-08-2010 04:12 PM #2
      You can moniter the trans temp with vag-com. If its working then dont replace it. How often does the trans temp code re-occur?

      I'm not sure your harsh shift is related to your code.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
      www.KansasCityTdi.com

    3. 07-09-2010 01:11 AM #3
      yes, I forgot to tell that we monitored the temperature using vag-com and the sensor seemed to be working.

      The harsh shift is really annoying and it would be great to know how to diagnose and fix this problem...

    4. Member Variety=Spice's Avatar
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      07-09-2010 06:24 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBy View Post
      it only happens when you are not touching the accelerator.
      just a hunch, but I would try doing the throttle body alignment procedure and watch the function of the throttle position sensor in VAGCOM

    5. 10-24-2010 12:31 AM #5
      Just stumbled on this thread that I initiated a while ago and decided to follow up.
      The end of story - the 5-4 hardshift problem is completely gone after replacing pressure regulator valve (also known as N91 solenoid, VAG number 01V 927 333 C or ZF 0501 210 725) on the valve body of the automatic transmission. Also carefully disassembled, cleaned and assembled back the valve body itself and changed ATF and the filter. There is a couple of excellent DIY write-ups on some Russian forums (looks like these guys buy used Audi/Passat's with a decent mileage and that's why they have to deal with that). Just in case, here is the link to one of Russian forums. There are pictures so I guess you can realize what you need to do.

      The transmission works really nicely after that, even switching to D is not harsh while hot - it was also the problem before. No more fault codes from VAG-COM.

      Good luck guys!

    6. Semi-n00b
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      02-18-2011 06:36 PM #6
      First of all thanks! For this thread and the .ru diy link. I am having the exact same problems on my 04 a4 1.8t w/01V tiptronic transmission. I have Vag-com and am not getting any codes, but it seems you had specific codes when experiencing the hard downshift and neutral/park to drive jerk when stationary(and fluid is warm).

      Naturally, the dealer simply said "internal transmission failure, recommend replace doe $5700" haha, whatever. I've already changed the fluid and filter awhile back, being careful to check the level at 40C so that's not an issue.

      I see you have all the part numbers but was wondering if that is a complete list. Is there a gasket between the valve body and transmission? Also, was it a nice one day job? Where did you get the parts?

      I could go to the dealer, but would prefer something like ECSTuning, they don't tend to carry these detailed parts though.

      I did find this website with spare parts: http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=c...=5hp19&x=0&y=0

      Also, please see my post on euroaddiction with more details on my issue http://www.euroaddiction.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4985

      Thanks a bunch!
      Last edited by Type_Audi; 02-18-2011 at 10:24 PM.

    7. 02-23-2011 03:22 AM #7
      Hey buddy,

      Got your pm and read your posts here and on euroaddiction.net.
      Indeed it seems you experience the very similar issues I had with my sister's passat and it looks like once you replace the pressure regulator (ZF 0501 210 725, the rightmost sucker on the picture here - http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=p...=127&parent=27) then you should be happy with your tranny.

      As to my case, I shipped the car from US to Belarus and ended up doing the job there. So if I tell you that I bought the parts via exist.ru then it would be hardly helpful. I am pretty sure they ship ZF parts from Germany. BTW, I was searching and could not find any ZF online reseller here in the U.S., so looks like thectsc.com is a good find! I would definitely call them and ask if they can sell a pressure regulator only, I guess you don't need to replace all other solenoids...

      As for the complete list of parts, I think you have it already, fluid/filter/gasket + pressure regulator. There is no gasket between the valve body and the tranny, just bolts.

      By the way, you might have difficulties with the tranny pan bolts, those are torx 27 and easy to spoil, so be careful with them. I ended up with buying a dozen of new bolts to replace those which were pretty damaged after my attempts to unbolt them. Their part number is WHT 000 747.
      I think it is one day job and the most difficult part for me was to unbolt the tranny pan (9 bolts were really tough) and then it was a tedious work to separate carefully valve body, remove all the springs/balls/jets, clean up valve body parts using carb cleaner (used 3 or 4 cans), assemble carefully and attentively the valve body back. I would certainly recommend keep a good track of all steps and even make photos to be sure you can assemble everything back into its original state.
      Some people decide not to deal with cleaning the valve body, just replace the pressure regulator. But the results may vary because there might be dirty oil inside valve body channels.
      I guess you know pretty well the procedure on how to fill up ATF so skipping that.

      Please let me know if any further questions and I will try to answer promptly.

    8. Semi-n00b
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      02-23-2011 10:52 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiderBy View Post
      Hey buddy,

      Got your pm and read your posts here and on euroaddiction.net.
      Indeed it seems you experience the very similar issues I had with my sister's passat and it looks like once you replace the pressure regulator (ZF 0501 210 725, the rightmost sucker on the picture here - http://www.thectsc.com/index.php?p=p...=127&parent=27) then you should be happy with your tranny.

      As to my case, I shipped the car from US to Belarus and ended up doing the job there. So if I tell you that I bought the parts via exist.ru then it would be hardly helpful. I am pretty sure they ship ZF parts from Germany. BTW, I was searching and could not find any ZF online reseller here in the U.S., so looks like thectsc.com is a good find! I would definitely call them and ask if they can sell a pressure regulator only, I guess you don't need to replace all other solenoids...

      As for the complete list of parts, I think you have it already, fluid/filter/gasket + pressure regulator. There is no gasket between the valve body and the tranny, just bolts.

      By the way, you might have difficulties with the tranny pan bolts, those are torx 27 and easy to spoil, so be careful with them. I ended up with buying a dozen of new bolts to replace those which were pretty damaged after my attempts to unbolt them. Their part number is WHT 000 747.
      I think it is one day job and the most difficult part for me was to unbolt the tranny pan (9 bolts were really tough) and then it was a tedious work to separate carefully valve body, remove all the springs/balls/jets, clean up valve body parts using carb cleaner (used 3 or 4 cans), assemble carefully and attentively the valve body back. I would certainly recommend keep a good track of all steps and even make photos to be sure you can assemble everything back into its original state.
      Some people decide not to deal with cleaning the valve body, just replace the pressure regulator. But the results may vary because there might be dirty oil inside valve body channels.
      I guess you know pretty well the procedure on how to fill up ATF so skipping that.

      Please let me know if any further questions and I will try to answer promptly.
      Thanks a bunch for the quick reply, I actually found the single N91 on ECSTuning here in the US for about $130.00. I'll probably open up the valve body like you did as well just to make sure it's clean, no need to get back in there twice and always wonder if I missed something. I do remember in one of the pictures on the .ru DIY site that it looked as if there was some kind of clear membrane/gasket between the two halves of the valve body. Was that just a piece of cellophane they added to protect the valve body while it was apart? It looked pretty fragile so I was wondering if you needed to replace that one. I'm guessing the two halves of the valve body are just a metal to metal contact from your description but wanted to double check.

      Thanks again.

    9. 02-23-2011 06:32 PM #9
      Oh, yeah, you are absolutely right, there is a membrane between the halves of the valve body and it is a thin metal plate with the holes, not cellophane. And I remember people suggested replacing it as well though I did not do that and I don't know the part number. This metal plate definitely serves some purpose like holding the jets, balls and springs in the right place. And I think it is totally fine if you just clean it and put back.

      By the way, if you are going that route, I mean separating and cleaning the valve body then if I would do that again I would stick to the following steps:
      1. Once you separate the halves of the valve body you need to carefully (!) slide and lift the plate. Some jets might stick to the plate, put them back to the lower valve body half and please make a good photo like this one - http://passat-b5.ru/othr/bz/akpp/11.jpg. This will be your model on how everything needs to be back once you are done with cleaning.
      2. Clean the metal plate and put all the jets/springs/balls on it mirroring the positions in the lower half of the valve body. Be sure to remove ALL the little pieces, there are 3 small brown balls and I missed to remove one of them - it took me a while to figure out where to put it back once it dropped from the valve body half Photos helped a lot! So at the end of your relocation process make a photo like this one - http://passat-b5.ru/othr/bz/akpp/12.jpg
      3. Clean the halves of the valve body and now you are ready to combine things together. Should be straightforward because you already know what is inside

      Good luck man!
      Last edited by SpiderBy; 02-23-2011 at 06:35 PM.

    10. 02-24-2011 02:08 AM #10
      SpiderBy:
      real quick question,

      i have the same problem according to vag-com, which is g93 temperature senoloid. I have checked temperature readings, and temp was around 98 - 99 C degrees.... which apparently, readings are wrong... and make me thinking that g93 is really defective...

      anyway, i was going to ask that, you mentioned g93 problem in the beginning and then ended up changing n91.... how did you find out that the problem was not g93? and it was n91?

      i have rough shift at 5>4, 3>2 and when the engine is hot, then N to D is also very very rough....

      Thanks in advance !!!!

    11. 02-24-2011 03:26 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by opheno View Post
      SpiderBy:
      real quick question,

      i have the same problem according to vag-com, which is g93 temperature senoloid. I have checked temperature readings, and temp was around 98 - 99 C degrees.... which apparently, readings are wrong... and make me thinking that g93 is really defective...

      anyway, i was going to ask that, you mentioned g93 problem in the beginning and then ended up changing n91.... how did you find out that the problem was not g93? and it was n91?

      i have rough shift at 5>4, 3>2 and when the engine is hot, then N to D is also very very rough....

      Thanks in advance !!!!
      Regardless of the G93 error in my case the temperature readings were correct according to VAG-COM (30-50 C degrees) so it made me thinking G93 is not defective.

      So I was focusing on hard-shift problem and decided to try that route after reading several success stories on passat-b5.ru forum.

      And indeed after replacing n91 solenoid not only hard shifts were gone but the intermittent G93 codes never came back either...

      So it is hard to tell if your case is the same, but if you choose to replace G93 then it is really a harder work because it is integrated into the wiring harness and in order to remove it (if I remember correctly) you will have to remove the torque converter first (home I am naming this thing right in English)...

    12. 02-25-2011 12:19 AM #12
      It is becoming interesting...

      I have used vag-com and monitor all those solenoids, n91, n92, n93 and n94. (n215, n216, n217 and n218).... All of them seem to be responding fine to acceleration and de-acceleration events.

      however, n93 had temperature values at 125 - 131 C degress... ??

      Is this normal? It appears to be very high to me...

      What should be the average transmission fluid temperature?

    13. 02-25-2011 02:36 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by opheno View Post
      It is becoming interesting...

      I have used vag-com and monitor all those solenoids, n91, n92, n93 and n94. (n215, n216, n217 and n218).... All of them seem to be responding fine to acceleration and de-acceleration events.

      however, n93 had temperature values at 125 - 131 C degress... ??

      Is this normal? It appears to be very high to me...

      What should be the average transmission fluid temperature?
      Can't really say what is the "normal" atf temperature...
      And just to be clear, I was talking about G93 temperature sensor only, not about n93 (aka n217) solenoid. Did not know the solenoids can actually measure the temperature at all but don't take me as an expert...

      I remember on the russian forums guys were saying that vag-com'ing n91 did not really show any problem but replacing it made things night and day...

    14. Semi-n00b
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      02-25-2011 07:58 PM #14
      Spiderby,

      Thanks again for the information.

      After reading opheno's post it seems that in our case (you, me, .ru folks and ophino), there isn't a specific vag-com code that flags that solenoid as bad so like you said it's pretty safe to say there simply isn't a fault sensor for it. I'm guessing an error is flagged only when the solenoid looks like an open circuit to the controller. Also, did you find a lot of dirty gunk in the valve body? I'm trying to decide if I want to spend the time cleaning it out and risk losing one of those small parts (car has 107k miles and I've already changed the fluid once).

      Ophino: I do believe 125C is too high and probably just means the temperature sender is faulty. Although it's winter here at the moment, after driving for around 20 minutes at interstate speeds my temperature was around 76C Max. When I was trying to diagnose my hard 5-4 downshift and neutral->drive jerk, I took a vag-com log from a cold start, up to highways speeds then back down and that was the highest temp recorded. I'm definitely going to spend the 180.00 to get a new N91 solenoid and see how things go. If for any reason you'd like to see the log file I have from vag-com just to compare, I'd be happy to send it.

    15. 02-25-2011 09:08 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Type_Audi View Post
      Spiderby,
      Also, did you find a lot of dirty gunk in the valve body? I'm trying to decide if I want to spend the time cleaning it out and risk losing one of those small parts (car has 107k miles and I've already changed the fluid once).
      I would not say there was a lot of gunk inside the valve body but I think you will see the difference in color of the atf inside and outside the valve body given that you have recently changed it.
      The risk exists and it will cost quite a fortune, but if you are accurate then you should be fine. Make photos and have a clean workspace.
      Last edited by SpiderBy; 02-25-2011 at 09:47 PM.

    16. 02-26-2011 12:37 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Type_Audi View Post
      Spiderby,

      Thanks again for the information.

      After reading opheno's post it seems that in our case (you, me, .ru folks and ophino), there isn't a specific vag-com code that flags that solenoid as bad so like you said it's pretty safe to say there simply isn't a fault sensor for it. I'm guessing an error is flagged only when the solenoid looks like an open circuit to the controller. Also, did you find a lot of dirty gunk in the valve body? I'm trying to decide if I want to spend the time cleaning it out and risk losing one of those small parts (car has 107k miles and I've already changed the fluid once).

      Ophino: I do believe 125C is too high and probably just means the temperature sender is faulty. Although it's winter here at the moment, after driving for around 20 minutes at interstate speeds my temperature was around 76C Max. When I was trying to diagnose my hard 5-4 downshift and neutral->drive jerk, I took a vag-com log from a cold start, up to highways speeds then back down and that was the highest temp recorded. I'm definitely going to spend the 180.00 to get a new N91 solenoid and see how things go. If for any reason you'd like to see the log file I have from vag-com just to compare, I'd be happy to send it.

      125 C seem to be very high to me too... I am almost gonna think that there is not much left atf in the engine... I need to check the atf level...

      Update on atf temperature readings.... This morning i just wanted to check the temperature of transmission fluid and it was reading 26 C to 32 C after a little warm up.
      So, i am just thinking that sensor is working fine...

      Perhaps, when it was reading high values, atf temperature was really that high....And just because of high temperature readings, i am thinking that atf is at very low levels,
      I will check atf levels....

    17. 02-26-2011 01:17 PM #17
      Well, another input....
      I started driving at 32 C atf and everything was smooth,
      after 5 minutes driving, atf reached to ~45 degress.... And guess what... rough shifting started at approximately at that temperature (45C)...

    18. Semi-n00b
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      02-26-2011 08:19 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by opheno View Post
      Well, another input....
      I started driving at 32 C atf and everything was smooth,
      after 5 minutes driving, atf reached to ~45 degress.... And guess what... rough shifting started at approximately at that temperature (45C)...
      Opheno, that is exactly what is happening to me, once the fluid is warm (it expands a lot and its viscosity changes), the rough shifting begins. I think that the transmission control unit switches to a different solenoid/valve actuation map when the temp reaches around 45C which accounts of the sudden change in behavior.

      Before you go about replacing solenoids, I would check the fluid level by making sure the car is completely flat, and that the fluid temperature is below 30C then start the car, leave it in park, and open the fill plug (the large recessed one). Not that if you turn the car off at any point with the fill plug open, you'll lose a lot of fluid as it drains out of the transmission!

      Closely monitor the fluid temperature as it rises from 30C. As you start to approach 40C you should start to see fluid drip out, if not wait for the fluid temperature to rise to 45C at which point you should definitely see some fluid start to seep out. If you get a little fluid seeping out between 40C and 45C, the fluid level is OK. If you're not seeing a single drop, even after approaching 45C, then it's too low. If you don't see fluid, put the fill plug back in, turn the car off and wait for the fluid temperature to drop down to 25C. Once cooled, turn the car on, open the fill plug and begin to pump fluid until it overflows. By now the temp should be 30-35C depending on how long it took you to add fluid. Continue to let fluid seep out until you reach 40C, then close the fill plug. That should put you at the right fill level. If you live a climate which is warm year round, then you can let fluid seep out all the way to 45C.

    19. 03-01-2011 01:47 AM #19
      it seems that i will have to take the car to the dealer to check the fluid level since the car needs to be lifted.
      i will update as soon as i can.
      thanks for the advise!

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      03-14-2011 07:30 AM #20
      After spending most of yesterday replacing the N91 valve on top of the valve assembly, the problem is gone! No more 5-4 hard shifts or P/R/N - > D hard shifts either. I decided not to take the valve body apart since I'd flushed the fluid once before, it looked clean enough to me.

      I will say that unless you are buff, the valve body is quite heavy and not that easy to hold in place with one hand while attempting to thread a couple of bolts to hold it in place. I had a to try a couple of times. I would also suggest to tie the wire harness somewhere off to the drivers side of the car before removing the valve body.

      When reading the .ru guide posted by SpiderBy, I noticed that they paid close attention to the order of the 17 bolts holding the valve body on. They mentioned that each bolt is a different length. When removing my bolts I was also careful to keep them in order however all of my bolts were exactly the same length and size, so more than likely if you mixed them up, no problem.

      The suggestions given here and on the .ru forums were invaluable, thanks!

    21. 03-14-2011 03:51 PM #21
      Man, I am so glad that worked for you!
      I know how great it is to feel the smooth gear switching now

      The 17 bolts holding the valve body must be of the same length, the other 26 bolts holding the valve body parts together are of different length. Here is the picture of them when I was getting the valve body apart:

      Since you decided to not go that far, it is just for the reference here.

      And indeed it is better to have spare hands when you remove/install the valve body, hear you man.

      Enjoy your ride!

    22. 03-17-2011 02:34 AM #22
      dude, that's awesome news! you have just encouraged me again.
      I was able to check the tranny fluid as you said, but it seemed to be at right level.
      I would like to change that n91 but the problem is that i am not sure how to lift the car. I dont know if i should trust jackstands. that s the only problem for me right now.

      well, i am glad that it worked for you man,

      btw, do you guys know how to find a place to lift the car? I dont think a mechanic would rent his shop to me

    23. Semi-n00b
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      03-17-2011 01:00 PM #23
      Lifting an A4 has always been a challenge for me. My advice is to spend $40.00 on a set of ramps, this will make common DIY's easy (oil, etc...). For the transmission fluid check the car must be perfectly level (as measured on the transmission pan). For that reason, you'll need to jack up the rear of the car as well. It's also a bit unsafe since the front wheels are still touching the ramps. When you do the tranmission fluid change you have to put the car in drive/reverse to pump the fluid through the system. If your buddy forgets to hold the brake, there's a risk they'll drive right over you. Fortunatley my wife loves me and held the brake when I did this job

      My usual method of jacking is to use the stock jack on the pinch welds (where it's meant to be used) all the way forward (towards front of car). That leaves just enough room to use a jack stand on the pinch weld. I always use a 1" thick chunk of rubber between the jackstand and the car to avoid damaging the pinch welds.

      There is a better solution however that I just learned of a few weeks ago. Our cars have real jacking locations that the factory uses during assembly. If you look under your vehicle near the front and back you'll see round plastic circle covers about 2" in diameter. If you remove those you'll see a spot for these http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Jack_Pad/ES251835/

    24. Member Variety=Spice's Avatar
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      03-18-2011 07:24 AM #24
      Jack stands are fine...that's exactly what they're made for. Stop by Harbor Freight or your FLAPS and examine a pair, noting the load capacity. There's no way you're going to break a modern jack stand. I've swapped numerous transmissions in my garage with Audi A4s on 4 jack stands, which includes starting the motor and running it through the gears when filling with ATF as noted above.

      I generally don't raise the rear of the car until I'm ready to fill the pan.

    25. 04-26-2011 02:26 AM #25
      ok Gents, i have just ordered that n91 part a few minutes ago. I hope i will find a way to lift the car and can change that sucker eventually...
      by the way in case somebody needs it, i have ordered it from http://www.thectsc.com/ and it came to 129.11$ shipping included...

    26. 04-26-2011 05:51 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by opheno View Post
      ok Gents, i have just ordered that n91 part a few minutes ago. I hope i will find a way to lift the car and can change that sucker eventually...
      by the way in case somebody needs it, i have ordered it from http://www.thectsc.com/ and it came to 129.11$ shipping included...
      Good luck man! Thanks for the pointer to the online store with different goodies.

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      05-30-2011 12:11 AM #27
      I'm just adding my positive results to this thread.

      I had the EXACT same problem with my 2001 Audi Allroad as described in this post. I went ahead and bravely purchased the individual N71 solenoid from ctsc, spent the day swapping it out and I'm a happy man. THANKS for following up SpiderBy, it's appreciated!

    28. Member Mr.Timewise's Avatar
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      05-30-2011 09:34 AM #28
      GREAT THREAD. Bookmarked!
      2010 Jetta SE 2.5L Tiptronic Salsa Red
      9W7 Bluetooth | RNS-510 | Homelink sun visor | Extendable passenger sun visor | MFSW w/ paddles | Hi-line SWCM | Hi-Line MFD+ instrument cluster | Auto-dimming inside rear view mirror w/ compass | Trunk lid open switch in grab handle | Silver lens tail lights | Front & rear door warning/puddle lights

    29. 07-01-2011 11:59 PM #29
      Allright people,
      Sorry it has been take a while to reply back. I have changed n91 today.
      Well, the result is somewhat better. But not perfect.
      I had several harsh shifting, N >D, 2>1 and 5>4.
      After replacing the part, N>D and 5>4 is gone. No issues for those two however, 2>1 is still a problem.
      I am not sure if i patience to change another solenoid right now, but i might change other possible problematic solenoids later sometime.
      This link here (page 49) shows possible defective ones.

      now, does anyone have another suggestion before i attempt to change another solenoid?

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