Some where, the rears are mentioned too, but I haven't found it yet. If I do I'll post it up.
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I received a call from the service adviser in the afternoon (same day as I posted). He advised that his Manager would replace the rear rotors as "one time courtesy". I am not happy with the one time courtesy replacement since this is an ongoing issue with the vehicle. I made an appointment and rotors were replaced. My issue is still with VW. I can't blame the dealer at this point. I have been thinking of getting aftermarket brakes and rotors as some of you have. I guess it's the principal of VW knowing they have inferior brake parts and continue to use them. They should not be left off the hook that easy IMO.
Now for the bad part on your end, you drive and 09', it's currently 2012, by checking you in service date will probably put you past 3 years. Technically, they are doing you a favor----IF you are past the 3 years. While I don't agree with it (read, I'm on your side) they have made the concessions, it's just unfortunate the you don't rack up that many miles, and you can't blame VW/Chrysler for that. We currently have about 8K on our last set of rotors, and much to my surprise there have been no signs of warpage as of yet. So for me the next set will be on me and I'll be going aftermarket for sure. This has been our only major problem with our van and I knew about this going into it, doesn't make it better, but i was prepared for it at some point.
Don't stress over 10 ft lbs on wheel lug nuts. There's really no notable difference between 95 and 105, especially with the regular old factory wheels. The accuracy of the torque setting usually gets destroyed by the person using the torque wrench (or worse yet torque stick on an impact gun) because they continue to push on the wrench after its "clicked" or the car is rocking as they tighten or they dropped their wrench a bunch of times or it hasn't been calibrated in years or its a $15 torque wrench from Harbor Freight, you get the idea.
Generally speaking, every bolt on a car has a torque range as opposed to a specific number. So 95 vs 105 is really not that big a deal.
I got it straight from the CD manual that came with our 2010 SEL. If you need the manual to take to the guy I'd be happy to email it to you. Unless Chrysler issued a change, I'm sticking with my manual. Also the following link is to the 2011 Chrysler T&C manual and has it on page 455, so 2011's are the same too. Maybe they run everything 10 over for their peace of mind, I'd still check them and set it to the 95 ft/lbs myself.
2011 T&C Manual
Thanks guys. Sorry, I didn't mean to post & run and go MIA, but I saw your msgs yesterday and appreciate the responses. 58, I thought you were more likely to be correct, and I'm glad you proved me correct on that. Thanks for posting the page from the manual.
At first I thought 10 ft-lbs wasn't much to be concerned about, but then I over-thought it and was thinking 10+% difference might matter. I also figured it might be in the margin of error just b/c torque wrenches seem to be renowned for being off a little bit one way or the other. I also think, in this situation as it pertains to lug-nuts and warped rotors, that it's probably the equal torquing of the lug-nuts that is more important than the exact number. Within reason of course (not talking about 200 ft-lbs or anything crazy like that).
Just took in my 2010 Routan for its 24,000 required service. The brakes had been vibrating for a while and I had been on these forums to see if it was my imagination, or there were others with Routan brake problems. Well, I'm happy to report that even though the brakes and rotors were bad, the dealer (Flow VW of Greensboro, NC) just fixed them today. So I suppose persistance pays off! Good luck getting all of your Routan brake issues resolved, folks!!!
Have the brakes been updated?
We recently purchased our Routan. It's an 09 that had just over 36,000 kms on it, and the brakes work fantastic! No noise, no shudder, just smooth, and they bite quite well for a stock brake. The only issue we have with the van is a lack of a dead pedal.
We purchased it from a VW dealer as a certified pre-owned VW (I even have the flag). I read that to be certified, one of the things that the dealer has to do is make sure that all of the recalls and TSB's are up to date.
So I wondered if that meant that it has the latest "version" of the brakes. I figured I'd just go after-market if they developed a problem, but they have been great so far.
I want to upgrade from the stock 16" 'Bloom' wheels, and found a nice looking set of used 19" 5 spoke Journey wheels (2009) for sale about an hours drive away. A few other's here have put them on their Routan's, and they look great.
Well here's the thing that makes me wonder about the brakes. Upon trying on one of the 19" Journey wheels (before I paid the nice people), They did NOT fit! I could not get them to clear the brakes! The diameter obviously was not a problem, as this wheel is 3 inches bigger than my stock wheel, but the caliper protrudes out to far to allow the wheel to seat. After putting my stock wheel back on, I see that it only just clears the caliper... just.
I also had been in touch with Tire Rack looking for wheels, and I had mentioned that anything that fits the Caravan or Town and Country should fit the Routan, and in his e-mail they said...
"The VW Routan has bigger brake calipers than does the Caravan/Town & Country. This prevents a great number of wheels from fitting your vehicle." - Tire Rack
So I'm wondering, Has VW's latest upgrade possibly made the rotors thicker to prevent warping, and thus requiring a wider upgraded caliper as well (or something similar)?
I'm also in Canada Eh... but can't see that making a difference.
So 58kafer How are your latest set of brakes holding out?
VW 4 Life... For life, that's what the ex said... but i mean it...
Did they look like these?
Or like these?
Last edited by 58kafer; 06-15-2012 at 12:13 AM.
I'm quite sure that they are Journey wheels. They have a 2009 Journey with smaller steel wheels. It was cheaper for them to get steel wheels, tires, hubcaps and TPMS sensors than it would have been to get new tires alone. Hence the reason the wheels are for sale. I'm going to try to attach the picture of them I got from the add. This "Semi-n00b" has not attached a picture yet.
The add readsIf anyone in the Winnipeg/Beausejour (Manitoba) area is interested in them, I believe they are still for sale. They have superficial scratches and oxidation near the centers, but no curb rash or gouges. Worth the $400.00, especially if you are going to paint them.A complete set of Dodge 19" rims. They come off of a 2009 Dodge Journey.
Here's the link...
VW 4 Life... For life, that's what the ex said... but i mean it...
They are journey wheels for sure, can't see why they didn't fit? For that price I'd be all over them. The price they are trying to get for them on Ebay is ridiculous, but they're asking what I'd say is a fair price. I know its a far ride but if revisit then if I could, or maybe have them take a pic of the offset that is cast into the wheel. If you look at the following link you'll se the info on the back of the wheel 19X7 JX40.0(the offset) the 40.0 is the exact offset as the OEM wheels on our Routans so there is no reason that they shouldn't have worked. Look at the second pic. I also verified that the calipers are the same for the Routan from 09-12. You sure you weren't missing something?
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Last edited by 58kafer; 06-16-2012 at 12:59 AM.
Also developed a couple months ago a pulsing or shutter when light or moderate braking at highway speeds, and that pulsing has become more pronounced lately. I'm just hoping it's not both the front and rears that have gone bad, but not overly optimistic about things either. The squeaking is definitely the front, and based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge, I thought pulsing or shuttering at highway speeds during light braking is indicative of an issue with rear brakes.
Just to summarize my situation:
Current: 59,600 on the odo. I'll be taking the van in at the end of the month for the 60k mile service.
Rear brakes replaced on 2/16/12 at 55,950 miles with Raybestos Advanced Technology rotors and pads.
Front brakes replaced on 11/18/11 at 51,925 miles with Napa "Premium" rotors and Napa Adaptive One "hybrid"-ceramic pads.
I'm on my own dime on the rears, but hoping if it's the fronts that I can get some "compensation" or credit from the indie shop that did the work. I trust them and plan to take the vehicle there for the 60k service. Also, I think the 60k service is pretty straight-forward and not a wallet buster. Just filters and ATF, IIRC. So I suppose things could have been worse if I were facing another $700 full brake job on top of, for example, a multi-thou$and dollar job scheduled maintenance interval.
I'll weigh in here. Our 2010 Croutan developed the pulsating/vibrating/shudder upon braking at ... I dunno, long time ago. I remember thinking "Isn't this car like brand new?" We just lived with it for a long while; wife's daily driver - mostly city use. Then it got so bad we brought it in for service. Dealer gave us 4 new discs (rotors) and linings, no charge in Feb '12 at 20k miles. We've put 4000 miles on it since, no issues; still brakes smooth as silk now.
So finally got around to taking the Routan in for the brake shuddering/squealing. Turns out it was only the fronts, thankfully. Covered under warranty by my local indie shop that did the work last November. Front rotors had warped pretty bad, and the shuddering and shimmying had gotten more pronounced in the last week or two. I'm at 61,250 miles now, so just under 9500 miles and 9 months on this set of front brakes. Interestingly, the front pads were worn about 65% already. One correction to my earlier summary (quoted below) is that the front pads being replaced were Napa's "Ultra Premium" line and not their Adaptive One hybrid ceramic pad. We were going to go with Adaptive One in November but they were out of stock, so went with the Ultra Premium line at that time. As I recall, those were Pagid ceramics in the Napa branded box. Napa is apparently using something else now for the Ultra Premium line and they're now semi-metallic pads. On the warranty work this time I had them put the Adaptive One line on just to see how they do. Only driven it a few miles, so no opinion yet.
Had to go with the Napa "Premium" rotors again. They're still not making front rotors in the Ultra Premium line. Napa has an Ultra Premium rotor for the T&C and DGC, but the part numbers don't match at all to the Routan. The part numbers differed more than in just the auto mfr. number slot too, if that makes sense. Three or four numbers differed, indicating a totally different part. My shop said the Ultra Premium rotors are much better at heat dissipation, so that's too bad they're not available on the Routan.
He inspected the rear brakes too and so far so good with the Raybestos Advanced Technology line. He said the rear rotors look great and the pads have about 10% wear and have worn evenly. But only have little over 5k miles and 6 months on the rears, so still have a ways to go yet.
As far as the Napa line, I think I'm done with them after this set on the fronts. Napa covered the parts under warranty so had to stick with them this time, but next time when it's on my dime I'll either look to the Raybestos A.T. line, depending on how these rears do, and also consider other after-markets depending on how the postings here shape up. I'm definitely interested to see others post back about their experiences with the EBC slotted and brakeperformance.com dimple & slotted rotors. I hope they hold up better on these vehicles.
So I got some info from a mechanic I trust, who previously worked at a VW dealership (way before the Routan). Currently is at an independent shop, and gets a good deal of Chryco fleet vans. This information might have already been mentioned here, in this thread or another, but I thought it was worth repeating just in case.
The Chrysler TSB for the front brakes on the DGC and CT&C includes a warranty extension. The VW TSB does not mention a warranty extension, but it does provide updated part numbers. He said you have to walk VW dealerships through TSBs and new part numbers because they are not always aware of it, and (now me talking) it might particularly be the case when dealing with a vehicle that is not a "real" VW. One more thing, he said many manufacturers (and said Chrysler is definitely one) maintain 2 different "OEM" lines for brakes with different part numbers. One is the same OEM rolling off the factory (the good stuff) and the other is to allow the dealerships to compete with the Midas and Walmarts of the world and is cheaper in cost and quality. So you want to go in armed with the part#'s and TSB# information and spoon feed it to the dealership.
Anyway, the Chrysler TSB with the warranty extension is TSB# 05-007-11 and is dated October of last year, and covers 2009-2011 vehicles with brake codes BRE and BRG. It is essentially a warranty extension for pads and rotors, and gives some part numbers for some (hopefully?) improved things. You can google it if you want to read the TSB.
The Volkswagen version of the same TSB is 46-11-09, however it just shows it as a part improvement alone, no warranty extension.
The VW parts numbers are:
7B0-615-301-B (rotors, x2)
7B0-698-151-F (brake lining kit)
If the '11 and '12 have the same calipers and sizes but are not having the same brake problems, then hopefully this part improvement will help out the '09 and '10 model years.
Instead of creating a new thread I will post to this one. I have a 2011 Routan with about 19k miles and we noticed the brake fading/pulsing at high speeds.
Dealer did replace the front brakes and rotors for free. The following TB is listed in my paperwork:
2028122 Anyone know how I can get more info on this TB?
I didn't think about asking about a warranty extension mentioned since I am reading this post, after getting back home
Part numbers for reference:
7B0-615-301-C Brake Disc
7B0-698-151-F BRK Lining
My rear breaks are a bit low as well (at 5mm). Does anyone know if this bulletin covers them too?
Many dealers are calling the warped rotor problem as a "wear item" and trying to wiggle out of the repair under warranty. Obviously, warped rotors are a safety item and need to be covered under the warranty, but sometimes you need to be a sqeaky wheel, as you are doing with VW Canada. Now, early worn out brakes are a different story, and you may not be able to push this through to be covered, but constantly pointing out that the Chryco vans (not just VW but all the vans), have a brake deficiency may get you something, if maybe only parts covered, then you pounce and say they admit the problem and should cover it at 100%. Good luck.
The easiest way for me to describe if your rear rotors are warped is by doing the following.
Drive on a nice straight quite road. While driving with radio/DVD off, lightly apply the brake pedal. If your van goes from quite inside to hearing a light thundering from the back and is repeatable EVERY time you apply the brakes your rear rotors are warped.
The factory parts are junk, they made revisions, but brake issues are starting to pop up on 11's and I'm sure on 12'. I'd bet they finally made the rotors from better materials, BUT only to "extend" the time before they warp. So we're now pushing 38K (in under 2 years) and are officially out of warranty. My rears are thundering, but the fronts look good and feel good. So perhaps the fronts are lasting longer, but the rears still suck. Needless to say once the rears are metal to metal I'll go aftermarket for sure. Whether they're drilled, slotted, magical, or what ever, but not OEM that's for sure. I still love this van.
Haven't read all the posts in this thread, but thought I'd add to the discussion my recent experience.
We bought the 2010 Routan in November 2010 (new, off the lot). Currently has 16,500 miles and brought it in today for it's 2-year carefree maintenance appointment. Told the dealer that we had vibration when braking at moderate speeds. I assumed that this would be warranty work because every other car I've had didn't need brakes (or rotors) until 50k+.
The new service rep did not give me warm and fuzzies about this being done under warranty. Spoke to the service manager too a few hours later after finding several message boards, such as this one, with similar reports of premature rotor warping. The manager also was skeptical that it would be covered by warranty.
Got a call a few hours later that they'd do a one-time goodwill warranty replacement. I hate how they're making me think they're doing something special/ a favor when this is clearly a defect or design error. And I hate how they start with the assumption that we've been riding around with our foot on the brake.
I'll take the 'one-time' warranty replacement and worry about fighting a bigger battle if I have trouble in the future.
so it's been a while (about 8K miles) since I posted on this...
I am at 24K and the brakes are shot again. Tragic shudder when braking. I already know what my dealer will say -- I've been there few times already and actually, I am getting tired of this myself, not to mention my dealer who has told me few times that brakes are a maintenance item. He just failed to recognize that I need to change the brakes more often than oil on my car....
I am going to write a nice letter to VoA pointing them to this and few other threads showing that the brakes are a constant problem and are below reasonable lifetime expectancy.
I think power comes in numbers, so if you have brake issues, you should also voice your concern to VoA not just the dealer.
Common issue, the guts are a chrysler after all, I have replaced the fronts twice and the rears once (pads). I have repalced back rotos once at 40k and fronts at 60k, they do seem to eat through rotors quick but not sure what else can be done, decent amount of weight in these cars. Braking systems might be a tad under sized, I have an 09 SEL, oil consumption and brakes are the only issues so far, at just over 60k miles could be worse. But I also do the work myself, im sure if I had to pay someone to do brakes I wouldn't be happy either. My 2 cents.
I had front brakes resurfaced on my 2011 at 8000km, replaced at 32,000km and they were starting to shudder again at 45,000km.
Just one of the reason that I gave up and traded in the Routan last week. I don't have time for this kind of foolishness.
Yarp or narp?
I think the last post really sums this one up.
When you spend $30K+ (approx) on a new van, you can't be having to argue with the dealer about nonsense like "driving with your foot on the break" or "it's a heavy van" when everyone knows there was either a design or materials issue from the start from Chrysler. Chrysler didn't know it was a heavy van when they designed the brakes? There's nothing to discuss on this. While I don't directly blame VW (Chrysler did the brakes I assume), VW has allowed themselves to fall right back into the same "poor maintenance and support" perception in the marketplace.
It gets to the point where you just say "I can't keep scr*wing with this". The previous post did what many owners of VW's have done in the last two decades...they got sick of the headache and dumped the car. Big shock in he VW world..
I'm not even going to comment about the absolute absurdity of 2-3 yr old V6 engines in 2012 burning a quart of oil between oil changes....(you've got to be kidding me)...
Last edited by VW_Enthu1; 09-25-2012 at 03:43 PM.
Let’s put it this way, brakes wear out, tires wear out, things wear out, they are designed to do that, your driving habits play a large part of that. Oil consumption issue, yes its stupid, but you’d be surprised how many makes on the road have the same issue, the owners just never check oil level anymore so how are they to know. I know a few people that have the same oil consumption issue with the 2.5 subaru engines. There is no flawless car out there, if it’s not one thing it’s another. People these days are just so disposable, van burns oil sell it buy a Toyota, it doesn’t burn oil but if you drive it on winter roads where they use salt then the spare tire falls off the bottom. (Recall ID # 82105)
A friend has a '10 Routan SE with 9,000 miles on it, and the discs look new, very smooth with no ridges, and no vibration when braking. His build date is 8/10, one of the later models of that MY. Whereas my '10 had ridges in the discs at 3500 miles, and the rears had to be replaced at 6,000 miles. Mine was built in 11/09. The difference between the two? Could be driving style in combo with ours being loaded all the time. This is the eighth Chrysler van we've had over the years, and in my opinion, they have all been underbraked. Are there any others out there with '09s or '10s without brake problems?
Last edited by VWroutanvanman; 09-26-2012 at 12:03 AM.
People may complain if the brakes lasted 20-30k miles, but would likely live with it without getting too upset about it. But it's simply not acceptable to have brakes last 6-12k miles and the mfr. do nothing to fix the problem. If GM light-duty trucks can get 100k miles on a set of brakes, there's no reason Chryco can't fix the problem and design brakes that can last a bit longer on a freaking minivan.
Last edited by Zambee500; 09-28-2012 at 12:30 PM.
I should add that it's not really even a premature wear item on these vehicles. The brakes barely have time to wear before they're shot. The rotors warp and you have to replace rotors & pads with 90%+ of brake material remaining. It's not a wear problem; it's a warpage problem.
That exactly sums up the issue.I should add that it's not really even a premature wear item on these vehicles. The brakes barely have time to wear before they're shot. The rotors warp and you have to replace rotors & pads with 90%+ of brake material remaining.
I have had the same problems with front brakes that many other have. Mine seemed to last a bit longer. The first issue with warped front rotors was around 8,000 miles. The dealer resurfaced the rotors and replaced the pads. Within about 5,000 miles, the problem was back. The dealer replaced the rotors and pads, despite VW calling for a resurfacing of the rotors. The service manager always went above and beyond for me (this is our third VW from this particular dealer, Riverhead Bay on Long Island) and replaced the rotors rather than resurfacing. He mentioned that VW does not recommend resurfacing of rotors on their own cars so they shouldn't on the Chrysler built van.
This van is simply too heavy for the rotors and they overheat and warp. The new rotors the dealer installed lasted for a decent time but when they warped, I took some advice on this forum and bought new vented and cross-drilled rotors from an eBay seller for both front and back. With about 30,000 miles on the van, I replaced the rotors and pads all around. The van no has 80,000 miles on it with much of it being around-town driving. The front pads needed replacement last week, the first since I put the vented cross-drilled rotors on. The rotors barely needed any resurfacing, I could have left them as they were. These rotors have solved the warping problem for me.
The van went to the dealer yestarday. After having it 6 hours, I get the can not reproduce call. Go yo pick it up and hay why not take the tech for a ride....5 minutes later have the tech feeling it, and agreeing it is probably all 4. The warranty coordinator "needs to call VW" to get it approved. I explained very nicely about the TSBs and the Chryco warranty extension...we'll see.
10' Routan SE, 28k
09' Volvo S80
98' Chevy K1500
13' Ford Interceptor Utility