Why is it that every other 996 for sale has a remanufactured engine?

[20aeman]

I mean people say that the IMS issue affects maybe 10 percent of 996s, but from my anecdotal evidence, it seems like it's maybe 50 percent.

I think this is the one major issue that really takes a crap on the 996's resale value. As a potential buyer, I don't know whether I should be happy or angry.

The only water cooled Porsches that are legitimately reliable are the GT3s, GT2s, 09+ cars, and the turbos. And coincidentally (probably not), those cars are particularly expensive.

[ATL_Av8r]

It's the Greek god Lelanto's way of saying "**** you Porsche! switch to water cooling, will you?"

[freedomgli]

My friend regularly tracks his 986 Boxster and he tells me the motors are good for 100 hours of track use. IIRC he's on his third motor. Not too bad at $15k a pop. That's only like $300 / HPDE you have to put aside in a rainy day account for your eventual motor replacement.

[nix6speed]

My friend regularly tracks his 986 Boxster and he tells me the motors are good for 100 hours of track use. IIRC he's on his third motor. Not too bad at $15k a pop. That's only like $300 / HPDE you have to put aside in a rainy day account for your eventual motor replacement.

You can't be serious, not too bad? That's $30k (I don't count the original engine) dumped into a Boxster. Don't get me wrong, the Boxster is a great car but that is simply outrageous.

Edit: I hope my sarcasm meter is broken.

[JustinCSVT]

Not too bad? $15K? I hope that's sarcasm.

[White_Turbo]

I mean people say that the IMS issue affects maybe 10 percent of 996s, but from my anecdotal evidence, it seems like it's maybe 50 percent.

If you ever studied probability in college, you will know why this % thing doesn't work out the way you thought it would.

[Dan92SLC]

Though best known for his work with the Type IV engine, Jake Raby has another company that specializes in updating, modifying, and repairing watercooled flat sixes.

http://flat6innovations.com/

Strongly recommend for 996/986 owners and possible owners-to-be.

[Samson]

Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous. I briefly considered a 996 as a (slightly) more practical replacement for my Boxster, but I decided that it wasn't worth the gamble... this time around anyway. That said, you might get lucky and stumble on to one of those 100k+ mile trouble free cars.

More info:
http://flat6innovations.com/

[sandiegan]

I'd only get a Boxster with the newly redesigned engines sans RMS.

[SSLByron]

Yeah, it's a bit ridiculous. I briefly considered a 996 as a (slightly) more practical replacement for my Boxster, but I decided that it wasn't worth the gamble... this time around anyway. That said, you might get lucky and stumble on to one of those 100k+ mile trouble free cars.

More info:
http://flat6innovations.com/

Just read the entire IMS retrofit series. Very cool stuff.

[Samson]

Just read the entire IMS retrofit series. Very cool stuff.

It is pretty cool. My issue is how do we know that his 'fix' is any better than the original Porsche design? He has a much, much smaller sample with an itty bitty fraction of the mileage. Not saying that it isn't a higher quality product, just that there isn't all that much to back it up in the real world.

[20aeman]

It is pretty cool. My issue is how do we know that his 'fix' is any better than the original Porsche design? He has a much, much smaller sample with an itty bitty fraction of the mileage. Not saying that it isn't a higher quality product, just that there isn't all that much to back it up in the real world.

That's what I took away from it as well. It's a better bearing but is it the bearing truly at fault here? Or is there some other deep rooted issue? And even if the bearing is better, it just means a longer fatigue life, so you're just delaying the engine's inevitable destruction.

Either way, it's probably a good idea to consider the IMS bearing a wear and tear item, and replace it like you would a timing belt at scheduled intervals....but who's willing to drop a transmission every 30k and replace a stupid (600 dollar) bearing just so your engine doesn't eat itself.

[BooberC2S]

All IMS engines have the potential for failer (even 06'-08'). The gradual improvements to the design over the years has helped but not totally eliminated the potential failers. Most privateer race teams and shop techs agree, frequent oil changes (3k miles, and after DE's) go a LONG way toward ensuring IMS longevity. The Porsche recommended 10k oil change intervals are a joke.

[XwalkerX]

so buy a turbo?

[Go4Broke]

That's what I took away from it as well. It's a better bearing but is it the bearing truly at fault here? Or is there some other deep rooted issue? And even if the bearing is better, it just means a longer fatigue life, so you're just delaying the engine's inevitable destruction.

Either way, it's probably a good idea to consider the IMS bearing a wear and tear item, and replace it like you would a timing belt at scheduled intervals....but who's willing to drop a transmission every 30k and replace a stupid (600 dollar) bearing just so your engine doesn't eat itself.

The stock bearing is a "sealed" unit that comes packed with grease from the factory. The problem is that the "seal" is poor and lightweight motor oils (e.g. 0W40) can seep in and actually wash away the grease inside the bearing. Then you're left with lightweight motor oil attempting to do the job of lubricating components that were meant to be lubricated with heavy weight grease. Failure is only a matter of time.

The Raby/LN Engineering ceramic IMS bearing upgrade replaces the sealed bearing with ceramic ball bearings that can withstand much higher temperatures and are intended to be lubricated with engine oil.

I have an appointment with Flat6Innovations a week from Friday to have the IMS upgrade done on my 2002 986S (along with a few other modifications while he has everything apart). The car only has 50k miles, with no IMS issues so far, but the upgrade seems like cheap insurance to me. I'm not claiming that the Raby IMS bearing is a magic bullet or anything, but I know I'll sleep better at night.

[20aeman]

so buy a turbo?

Yeah, that looks like the only option right now. Gonna have to save up some more. Or maybe a mint 930.

[VdubChaos]

Racing is NEVER cheap, especially with a Porsche.

Yeah, that looks like the only option right now. Gonna have to save up some more. Or maybe a mint 930.

If replacing an engine "here and there" is not one of your financial options I suggest you stay away from Porsche all together.

[XwalkerX]

Yeah, that looks like the only option right now. Gonna have to save up some more. Or maybe a mint 930.

keep saving.

you wont be dissapointed...

[20aeman]

The stock bearing is a "sealed" unit that comes packed with grease from the factory. The problem is that the "seal" is poor and lightweight motor oils (e.g. 0W40) can seep in and actually wash away the grease inside the bearing. Then you're left with lightweight motor oil attempting to do the job of lubricating components that were meant to be lubricated with heavy weight grease. Failure is only a matter of time.

The Raby/LN Engineering ceramic IMS bearing upgrade replaces the sealed bearing with ceramic ball bearings that can withstand much higher temperatures and are intended to be lubricated with engine oil.

I have an appointment with Flat6Innovations a week from Friday to have the IMS upgrade done on my 2002 986S (along with a few other modifications while he has everything apart). The car only has 50k miles, with no IMS issues so far, but the upgrade seems like cheap insurance to me. I'm not claiming that the Raby IMS bearing is a magic bullet or anything, but I know I'll sleep better at night.

Even that's a mixed bag though, because some people take the inside seal off the stock bearing and run it that way. Their logic is that without the seal, the engine oil does a better job of lubricating the bearing.

Either the heat burns away the sealed bearing's grease and you need motor oil to lubricate it or the motor oil washes away the bearing grease and you need a better bearing. But as you can see here, there are a lot of theories and schools of thought on the subject.

[20aeman]

Racing is NEVER cheap, especially with a Porsche.



If replacing an engine "here and there" is not one of your financial options I suggest you stay away from Porsche all together.

Racing isn't cheap, hence why I'm not racing. Replacing an engine "here and there" isn't one of my financial options because it's just plain stupid. I'm not gonna buy a C4S @ 30k, wait for it to blow an engine up, then spend another 15k to get it running when I could have just saved that 15K and gotten a turbo. I don't get anything for my money here, there is no benefit for me in replacing engines here and there. That's the problem.

[10Ten]

where can i read more about this stuff? the different engine versions, their problems vs. robustness?

[XwalkerX]

6speedonline.com

[10Ten]

thx

[Go4Broke]

LOTS of information on 986forum.com as well. Jake Raby is a regular on that site.

[Avus]

I mean people say that the IMS issue affects maybe 10 percent of 996s, but from my anecdotal evidence, it seems like it's maybe 50 percent.

I think this is the one major issue that really takes a crap on the 996's resale value. As a potential buyer, I don't know whether I should be happy or angry.

The only water cooled Porsches that are legitimately reliable are the GT3s, GT2s, 09+ cars, and the turbos. And coincidentally (probably not), those cars are particularly expensive.

from the sound of it, they are like xbox360.

[Obin Robinson]

I mean people say that the IMS issue affects maybe 10 percent of 996s, but from my anecdotal evidence, it seems like it's maybe 50 percent.

The only water cooled Porsches that are legitimately reliable are the GT3s, GT2s, 09+ cars, and the turbos. And coincidentally (probably not), those cars are particularly expensive.

where the fudge are you getting this info? are you making it completely up or getting assistance from the bottom of a bottle of whiskey? Porsche has been making water cooled cars since 1975 and they are VERY reliable vehicles. Porsches have been my daily drivers since 1998 and i've NEVER been stranded because of a maintenance issue: only from a dead battery.

what cars for sale are you looking at? are you looking at ones which were maintained by people who could afford them? are you looking at ones owned by people who rev up to redline while the engine is cold and thrash the car before returning it at the end of the lease?

while i was in Iraq for the majority of 2009 i spent dozens if not hundreds of hours of my free time studying the M96 engine. what i found out was pretty eye opening. i spoke to reputable Porsche technicians and dug around to get to the bottom of this entire debacle. what i found was:

1) some of the claims of engine failures couldn't be substantiated. they were like some sort of urban legend that doesn't connect to hard facts. some of the posters claiming to own Porsches sounded more like script kiddies posting in car forums between gym class and lunch period. there were posts on established forums which sounded just as legit as the wild and crazy streetracing stories from a decade ago. yes i know that people have had true IMS failures in cars but when you consider the over 400,000+ M96 engines made the failures were a tiny percentage and almost always found in the very early production cars or ones which had questionable history.

2) though the aftermarket retrofits seem to be an interesting option i had serious questions about if some of the people posting were friends of the persons supplying the retrofit. it would be like me owning a bulletproof window business and having my friends and family drum up sales by randomly posting around the web that their windows were getting shot out all across the country. the article i quote at the end of this post alludes to this theory and i fully subscribe to it. one forum mentioned that there were three instances of failures amongst their 19,000 members. that's not bad considering that there were still questions that remained concerning the maintenance and care of the engines which failed.

3) engine failures, regardless of maker, can often be blamed on lubrication (or lack of) along with abuse. Porsche has a VERY SPECIFIC list of approved lubricants for their engines and transmissions. despite this i've read on many sites where owners have decided that they knew more about the engines than Porsche did and strayed from a recommended oil. what is the logic in this? since when do you know more about a motor than several hundred factory engineers with a combined knowledge of over a thousand years of experience? i use the lubrication oil specified by Porsche and the transmission oil as well. it's freaking expensive but it's a lot cheaper than a broken engine. while doing research into the recommended oil i came across dozens of internet posters which were using the WRONG oil in their Porsche. yeah the car runs great for now... but what does your engine think about the wrong oil when you run it for 60,000 miles, use an aftermarket filter, and change the oil once every 15,000 miles?

4) track usage is hard usage. some of these "random IMS failure" issues were helped along by the engine being overreved multiple times. Porsche dealerships can scan the ECU and detect overrevs along with a full history of the engine since the car was manufactured. they can get a reasonable idea of what kind of driving the car sees by figuring out number of ignitions, distance driven, and overrevs. this is all taken into account when a person complains about their broken engine but mysteriously keeps quiet about how they drive their car. sure, everyone drives like a little old lady and babies the car when a service manager is asking them why their engine is broken with 40,000 miles on it. i'm sure it was never ever driven hard and the RPMs were kept under 3,500 until the engine fully warmed up every since time it was started right?

the best piece of advice/info i came across while doing research actually came from the PCA site. here's a direct quote:

2008 worried about IMS engine failure
Boxster, Cayman | Engine


Vehicle Information: Model (Boxster, Boxster S,Cayman, Cayman S): Boxster; Year: 2008; Engine (type, size, modifications): GIAC Performance Software; Total Mileage: 10,438; Transmission: Manual;

This recent posting on another website: http://carnewsarticles.com/2008/11/0...gine-failures/ led me to research postings here where I noticed an earlier question on this subject with your reply indicating that it has occurred. How serious is this problem, should I be concerned in regard to my car and if so is there anything I can do about it?

Will DiGiovanni just answered a very similar question, a couple of times, as you can imagine we had a brief wave of the same question repeated. Here is an edited version of his answer, followed by some additional thoughts.

DiGiovanni: "Although there have been cases of engine failure there is no set pattern as to when. There were early production problems with the 2.5L engines but given your production date & model I don't see an issue here. This was the last year of the 2.5L as of model year 2000 the displacement was increased to 2.7L. As far as any rear main seal leak I'm sure at some point it will require replacement, no seal wil go forever. The updated part has been superceded to a 997 part number and since I have not had to replace any as of this time.

"Everyone needs to relax about the M96 engine failures. As I stated earlier there is no set pattern or any way to predict how long each individual motor will last. As a point of interest my Boxster has 155k miles on it's original engine and I can attest to it has not had an easy life prior to my ownership."

Reiser: Porsche has done a heck of a job to get the price down on all of the Boxster/Cayman and 996/997 engines. A crate motor is cheaper now than just an engine rebuild used to be (and still is) in the prior models. That is easy to take for granted. Even more amazing, the price of this replacement engine can be less than twice the cost of an aftermarket extended warranty. In other words, self-insuring your odds are 50/50.

With the article you referenced, they toss around a 20% failure rate. Well we're ahead to self-insure, and the insurance company will make money all day, that is how they make their living after all. There were tens of thousands of 911's for many years. Now there are hundreds of thousands of Boxsters, Caymans and "New 911s". Of course there will be more failures, there are 20x as many cars, or more.

Finally, for the new cars, Peter Smith reports that as of mid-2006 Porsche phased in a revised IMS which takes care of the models from then on, and then the new-generation engine which debuted in the 2009 997 will be in all of the new cars (minus DFI in the new base Boxster).

So your question was, "is there anything I can do about it?". I would say yes, do regular oil changes, take Will's advice and don't worry yourself too much over it, and choose one of two paths, either maintain an aftermarket warranty on the car, or self-insure by routinely setting aside funds for maintenance and/or possible engine replacement. Also, seeing as you how you are still under factory warranty, my advice is to take out the Performance Software from your ECU. That would not help your case if you had an engine warranty claim. The vendor you used does a quality job, but warranty terms get sketchy when you've taken over control of the engine from Porsche.

Joel Reiser / Will DiGiovanni

what do i personally do myself when it comes to water cooled Porsches? i maintain my cars meticulously. i don't treat my Boxster like a Harley Davidson or an old VW Beetle and i don't believe that "it's meant to leak a little bit because that's how it's designed." i just spent good money having my local shop replace the valve cover gaskets in my car because there was a slight bit of oil smell after hard driving. why? because i actually care about my car and i demand that it runs in tip top condition. i don't cut corners and use cheap oil, cheap parts, or questionable labor practices. i don't jump into a car and start revving to redline while the engine is cold then get all stupid and pissy when i break something.

the local garage and local dealership i bring the car to has never seen an IMS failure due to bad quality parts, nor has any of their techs, nor has any of the local PCA members in this region of 500+ people. i also NEVER heard of anyone with the issue when i lived only 30 minutes from Watkins Glen. i spent years doing tech inspections at the track and attended countless club racing and driver's education events. all the engine failures i heard of in Porsches were directly the result of engine overrevs, poor lubrication, or aftermarket parts.

all i know is that someone is making a lot of money off of bad advice, bad maintenance, and bad rumours. it sure isn't anyone i know or have ever associated with.

fwiw:

http://www.boxsterforum.com/forums/p...9&page=2&pp=20

obin

[n0rdicalex.]

i love the 996 GT3 bang-for-buck ratio.

[Obin Robinson]

My friend regularly tracks his 986 Boxster and he tells me the motors are good for 100 hours of track use. IIRC he's on his third motor. Not too bad at $15k a pop. That's only like $300 / HPDE you have to put aside in a rainy day account for your eventual motor replacement.

100 hours is a LONG time on the race track for a competitive car. the most expensive Porsche racing motor i knew of was the 2.65 litre water cooled twin turbo. that engine cost about $1000/hour to run and would go 30 hours before needing a rebuild. once you step from street usage into racing there are costs that go up and parts lifetimes that go down: regardless of manufacturer. racing ANY car is expensive on engines, tires, brakes, suspension, and just about everything else.

just for what it's worth the Furhmann 4-cam engine in the 550 Spyder costs at least $20,000 to rebuild. those are old prices so it may actually be a lot more expensive today. just be happy you're not racing one of those. a friend of ours paid $15,000 to repair the motor in his 930 when he dropped a valve while on the track.

racing is NOT cheap.

obin

[2VWatatime]

Obin, Obin, Obin...
C'mon man, we all know that you're a supersecret Porsche "plant" doing your best Kevin Bacon imitation (ancient movie reference there).

ALL 996/986 variations are highly likely to have multiple failures, including the aforementioned RMS, IMS, BMS, ED, Registry Errors, Corrupted Files, Spy & Malware, RRoD, Erections lasting longer than 4 hours, and of course, Feminine Hygine issues...

[20aeman]

"Everyone needs to relax about the M96 engine failures. As I stated earlier there is no set pattern or any way to predict how long each individual motor will last."

This is unacceptable. And it's the closest to the truth here. Obin, can you guarantee that a babied, meticulously maintained M96 isn't going to chew itself up?

the local garage and local dealership i bring the car to has never seen an IMS failure due to bad quality parts

So the parts were perfectly up to spec, but owner abuse killed the motors? Owner abuse being anecdotal at best and speculation at worst. Sounds like a typical dealer defense mechanism. If it works so well, why did Porsche keep revising the part? Hell, why did they get rid of it altogether on the 09+ cars?

You'd think the Turbos and GT3s that are often heavily modified, driven significantly harder, and see far more abuse would end up with the same engine failures as a secretary's 2.5 Boxster. But lo and behold, that's never the case.

"choose one of two paths, either maintain an aftermarket warranty on the car, or self-insure by routinely setting aside funds for maintenance and/or possible engine replacement."

Lolz. I thought VW owners were masochists. How bout people just set that money aside and buy a properly engineered Porsche.

[Obin Robinson]

This is unacceptable. And it's the closest to the truth here. Obin, can you guarantee that a babied, meticulously maintained M96 isn't going to chew itself up?

So the parts were perfectly up to spec, but owner abuse killed the motors? Owner abuse being anecdotal at best and speculation at worst. Sounds like a typical dealer defense mechanism. If it works so well, why did Porsche keep revising the part? Hell, why did they get rid of it altogether on the 09+ cars?

there is no way of predicting how long ANY motor will last regardless of manufacturer. while researching the M96 motors i came across accounts from Chevy, Nissan, and Toyota dealer service techs which had replaced dozens of engines at their dealerships each year. not all of the failures were predictable. i can no more predict that a babied M96 won't blow up any more than you can predict whether a babied VW 2.0 turbo will blow itself up. engine failures happen in Hondas, Chryslers, Audis, and Ferraris. some of them are because of faulty parts and some are because of faulty maintenance. yet others are due to owner abuse.

if it works so well why did they revise it? that holds true for just about EVERY innovation in cars. why did VW get rid of the Type IV air cooled motor? why did Chevrolet get rid of the DZ302? why doesn't Ford still equip vehicles with the carbureted 351 Cleveland? why did GM discontinue the LT1? in every instance it's the same reason: the engineers found out that they built a better mousetrap and discontinued the old one.

just for reference it took Porsche almost 50 years to build a million TOTAL cars with the millionth being built in 1996. you do realize that there are more than 400,000 M96 motors built right? that is BEFORE the Boxster or 996 was produced. basically there are more M96 engines than there are entire total number of engines for many of Porsche's previous cars combined.

the hype behind the M96 engine failures is no different than the hype behind Toyota's unintended acceleration, or Ferrari's chronic fire problem in their cars. in both cases you take a statistical anomaly and then run it into overdrive courteousy of the internet and media hungry for a story.

obin

[AKADriver]

i don't treat my Boxster like a Harley Davidson or an old VW Beetle and i don't believe that "it's meant to leak a little bit because that's how it's designed."

Or like those garbage SR71s!

One of my co-workers was looking to buy a Boxster and we eventually came to the same concusion you did - following factory recommendations is key, and while there's no way to guarantee things will last, you can do your best to maximize your chances and move on.

The OP should keep in mind that cars for sale don't represent the entire population of cars out there. If, like most of us working shlubs who are just hoping to find something special in our price range, you set a price cap, it gets even worse - you're only going to see the cars that people are dumping because they didn't treat it properly, it cost them too much money to keep running, and they don't want it anymore. Now some of us on this forum *coughVadGTI* have made a hobby out of buying cars like that, but Porsches are the sort of car to be avoided in that condition; while, say, BMWs can be run ragged and then resurrected without as many long-term complications.

I guess the conclusion to this story is that there are $25,000 996s out there but you're hedging your bets to maybe spend another $15k when things go wrong; or you can buy a $40000 996 with full papers and your chances are much lower. It gets easier in the Boxster world only because they made SO MANY Boxsters and there's less of a gap between the cost of a typical used car lot example and a babied car.

[Air and water do mix]

just for what it's worth the Furhmann 4-cam engine in the 550 Spyder costs at least $20,000 to rebuild. those are old prices so it may actually be a lot more expensive today. just be happy you're not racing one of those.

Sorry, I am NOT happy I'm not racing one of those. That's the dumbest thing you've ever said!

[8v_gti777]

Obin makes good points but the M96 motors just scare me. I've seen one torn down and it just looks fragile, along with all the stories I've read on the internet. I know those stories can be discredited but many of them seem legit.

[ATL_Av8r]

Not too bad at $15k a pop.

Did he get in on a Porsche Groupon or something?