Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    The Car Lounge
    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 35 of 50

    Thread: Great Explanation of IMS Failures on Porsche M96/M97 Engines - Lots Of Pics

    1. Member tincanman99's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2000
      Posts
      1,246
      Vehicles
      1987 Scirocco 16v, 1990 Golf GL, 2007 Audi A3
      07-22-2010 10:33 PM #1
      As many people know the Porsche M96/M97 have a weakness regarding the IMS. All 911, Boxster and Caymans until 2009 have this design. Check out this article explaining what it is, what happens and how maybe you can stop it:

      http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html




    2. Member esrballa's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 8th, 2008
      Location
      Los Angeles, CA
      Posts
      1,493
      Vehicles
      98 BMW M3
      07-22-2010 10:37 PM #2
      All 911s except the Turbo, GT2, and GT3

    3. Member tincanman99's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2000
      Posts
      1,246
      Vehicles
      1987 Scirocco 16v, 1990 Golf GL, 2007 Audi A3
      07-22-2010 10:40 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by esrballa View Post
      All 911s except the Turbo, GT2, and GT3
      Correct because they have a different engine based on the older engine.

    4. Member Hawk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 7th, 2010
      Location
      Toronto, Canada
      Posts
      7,094
      07-22-2010 10:46 PM #4
      Good thing I don't drive a Porsche.
      1989 GLX | 2002 GTI | 2005 Boxster | 2006 GTI | 2007 Cayman | 2014 991

    5. Member
      Join Date
      Jul 31st, 2002
      Location
      Chicago
      Posts
      261
      Vehicles
      Jaguar
      07-22-2010 10:51 PM #5
      As a factory trained Porsche tech this is actually very interesting. We have had several theories about why the IMS fails and one of the theories was that the bearing was sealed preventing proper cooling and lubrication not to mention just plain weak. The other theory is based on the fact that the crank is not fully supported on the transmission side. The crank's last main bearing is not at the edge of the case therefore is not fully anchored or supported. Then add to that a flywheel and clutch assembly spinning at 6k RPM plus and it starts to wobble leading to RMS failure chain slack and then KA-BOOM!

      It's pretty cool that they can replace the bearing without splitting the case. I'd like to know if there are any long term daily driven 996/997's running around trouble free with this update kit.

    6. Member gonzo08452's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 16th, 2006
      Location
      yorba linda, ca
      Posts
      7,908
      Vehicles
      02 BMW 325 / 97 Jetta/ 2012 Acura TSX wagon / 2007 Trailblazer SS
      07-22-2010 10:55 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Santini View Post
      Good thing I don't drive a Porsche.
      heck yeah!! hunk of junk j/k

    7. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 26th, 2002
      Location
      Detroit
      Posts
      17,953
      Vehicles
      Current: Audi S4, Q3 2.0T quattro, Porsche Boxster S, Dodge Dakota 4x4
      07-22-2010 10:59 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Santini View Post
      Good thing I don't drive a cheap Porsche.
      Fixt.

      The good Porsches don't have a problem.

    8. Member tincanman99's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2000
      Posts
      1,246
      Vehicles
      1987 Scirocco 16v, 1990 Golf GL, 2007 Audi A3
      07-22-2010 11:02 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Dreek View Post
      As a factory trained Porsche tech this is actually very interesting. We have had several theories about why the IMS fails and one of the theories was that the bearing was sealed preventing proper cooling and lubrication not to mention just plain weak. The other theory is based on the fact that the crank is not fully supported on the transmission side. The crank's last main bearing is not at the edge of the case therefore is not fully anchored or supported. Then add to that a flywheel and clutch assembly spinning at 6k RPM plus and it starts to wobble leading to RMS failure chain slack and then KA-BOOM!

      It's pretty cool that they can replace the bearing without splitting the case. I'd like to know if there are any long term daily driven 996/997's running around trouble free with this update kit.
      So how often do you see it? Or you are not allowed to say?

    9. Member
      Join Date
      Nov 17th, 2003
      Location
      Corona
      Posts
      3,776
      07-22-2010 11:52 PM #9
      wonder where this thread goes if it was a Toyota

    10. Banned 20aeman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 7th, 2006
      Posts
      9,250
      Vehicles
      ///M Roadster
      07-23-2010 02:38 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by hotprop View Post
      wonder where this thread goes if it was a Toyota
      Porsche owners are only second to Ducati owners in regards to maintenance/reliability rationalization.

    11. Member eunos94's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 17th, 2002
      Location
      Northeast Ohio
      Posts
      6,955
      Vehicles
      Yellow 1970 Beetle & Yellow Rush 2012 Beetle 2.5L Tiptronic
      07-23-2010 03:20 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      Porsche owners are only second to Ducati owners in regards to maintenance/reliability rationalization.
      I bought a Ducati 916 brand spanking new and promptly proceeded to put 3,000 miles on her in just 1 month. At the end of that month I noticed a serious lack of power so back to the dealership where they replaced the motor because my head bolts had stretched warping not only the head but the block as well.

      This took 6 months... 6 very loooooooooooooong months when I got it back I put it right back into full daily duty and 3 weeks later at 5500 miles my lil duck went back in for a cam belt failure. This time Hines was kind enough to just buy it from me as they had no idea how long it would be before I could get it back because there wasn't a single new motor in stock ANYWHERE in the world outside of the production line.

      Last Ducati I owned and now nearly 20 years later... I've lost most of that bad taste and I'm starting to look for a 92 900SL or another 916. I mean seriously has anyone ever built a sexier motorcycle?
      ■■■■■■■■■■■■

    12. Banned 20aeman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 7th, 2006
      Posts
      9,250
      Vehicles
      ///M Roadster
      07-23-2010 04:09 AM #12
      I wouldn't touch a desmoquattro unless it's a testastretta. If you want a "pseudo reliable" 916, you want to pick up a 996R or a 998. The 2 valvers are much more reliable and simpler to deal with, so all the SS bikes are okay.

      My friend spent 2k in maintenance to ride a 996 3k miles.
      Last edited by 20aeman; 07-23-2010 at 04:15 AM.

    13. Member eunos94's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 17th, 2002
      Location
      Northeast Ohio
      Posts
      6,955
      Vehicles
      Yellow 1970 Beetle & Yellow Rush 2012 Beetle 2.5L Tiptronic
      07-23-2010 04:19 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      I wouldn't touch a desmoquattro unless it's a testastretta. If you want a "pseudo reliable" 916, you want to pick up a 996R or a 998. The 2 valvers are much more reliable and simpler to deal with, so all the SS bikes are okay.

      My friend spent 2k in maintenance to ride a 996 3k miles.
      Friend of mine has a few Ducatis including a 70,000 mile 92 900SS that hasn't been apart... yet!!! He has 3 of the DesmoQuattros and all have had a cam belt failure even though he changes them at 3000 mile intervals. Seriously... THREEMUDDAFUGGINTHOUSANDMILES!!!!

      He actually makes it seem normal and ok when you discuss it with him. It's not until halfway home that it really hits you just how short 3000 miles is and just how fragile those motors really are.
      ■■■■■■■■■■■■

    14. 07-23-2010 07:25 AM #14
      Let's see... company trying to drum up business posts an "article" that explains a major problem for which, by excellent fortune, they sell a solution!

      Wow. Will miracles ever cease?



      Obin, paging Obin. Obin, please pick up the white phone...

    15. Member patrickvr6's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2001
      Location
      Atlanta GA
      Posts
      8,509
      Vehicles
      '87 930 '77 Bronco '01 325iTSC '08 Xterra
      07-23-2010 07:34 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      Porsche owners are only second to Ducati owners in regards to maintenance/reliability rationalization.
      How many Porsches have you owned? I have been daily driving a 23 year old model for the past 3 years and it is the most reliable car I have ever owned.
      Do you want to ride to 60 in three seconds or drive there in five?

    16. 07-23-2010 07:55 AM #16
      TCL never disapoints! Post an article and all of the sudden the board is full of Porsche Bashing "experts". I would, and do, gladly accept the relaibility risk of a Porsche over just about any other German make (exectiin being MB). The Audi's, VW's, and especially BMW's i have owned throughout the years have been anything but reliable.

    17. Member P-Body's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 17th, 2007
      Location
      Toronto
      Posts
      5,203
      Vehicles
      13 Optima, 10 GT-R
      07-23-2010 08:03 AM #17
      I'd be lying if I said this didn't worry me outside of warranty. But whatever, if it dies, it dies.

    18. 07-23-2010 08:41 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by P-Body View Post
      I'd be lying if I said this didn't worry me outside of warranty. But whatever, if it dies, it dies.
      Don't worry @ the foolish. I'm coming up on year #8 w/mine (Boxster), and it's been fine.

      (OMG - I just realized that I have THE ONLY ONE EVAR to not spontaneously grenade itself!!!!!)


    19. Member Das Borgen's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 10th, 2008
      Location
      Columbus, OH
      Posts
      8,079
      Vehicles
      1995 M3, 1999 740i "Short" Sport, 2000 Ducati 748
      07-23-2010 08:46 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by eunos94 View Post
      or another 916. I mean seriously has anyone ever built a sexier motorcycle?
      nop

      I adore mine (748 form)

      Quote Originally Posted by Das Borgen
      VR6s should sound like Chewbacca getting raped
      Dazzle Surprise - Team My Little Pony

    20. Member
      Join Date
      Jul 31st, 2002
      Location
      Chicago
      Posts
      261
      Vehicles
      Jaguar
      07-23-2010 09:32 AM #20
      I've seen a lot of blown up engines due to the now infamous IMS failure. How many exactly? I'm not sure. It seems like a lot and when I first started in 2006 we were rebuilding or replacing engines frequently. Keep in mind as a mechanic I only see them when they are broken. I would however stay clear of any 996 that has not had an engine rebuild or replacement and I would stay clear of any 997 / 987 pre 2005.5 They updated the IMS to a larger shaft with a larger bearing which I personally have yet to see fail.

      I believe that a lot of engine issues with the M96 is due to infrequent oil changes. Oil pressure and oil flow is critical for these engines. And based on my own experience of seeing customers change they're oil once a year I think a lot of problems could be avoided. I see more engines with internal failures such as the IMS in cars that have low miles and few service records. On the flip side engines with 75k plus miles that have they're oil and air filters changed frequently plus an owner who rings out the engine instead of lugging the engine have the least amount of engine problems.

    21. Member tincanman99's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2000
      Posts
      1,246
      Vehicles
      1987 Scirocco 16v, 1990 Golf GL, 2007 Audi A3
      07-23-2010 09:36 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by 2VWatatime View Post
      Let's see... company trying to drum up business posts an "article" that explains a major problem for which, by excellent fortune, they sell a solution!

      Wow. Will miracles ever cease?



      Obin, paging Obin. Obin, please pick up the white phone...
      Um, I doubt it. I dont work for this company nor have any interest in them. I work in financial services, thanks for caring.

      I posted this because I thought it was interesting.

    22. 07-23-2010 09:56 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      Um, I doubt it. I dont work for this company nor have any interest in them. I work in financial services, thanks for caring.

      I posted this because I thought it was interesting.
      Didn't say you did, and no, beating a dead horse isn't interesting.

      Thanks though, for posting on a topic that's never been, ah, beaten to death here before...

    23. Member patrickvr6's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2001
      Location
      Atlanta GA
      Posts
      8,509
      Vehicles
      '87 930 '77 Bronco '01 325iTSC '08 Xterra
      07-23-2010 10:05 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by 2VWatatime View Post
      Didn't say you did, and no, beating a dead horse isn't interesting.
      If you don't find it interesting stop replying to the thread and bumping it to the top.

      "How can you be so obtuse?"
      Do you want to ride to 60 in three seconds or drive there in five?

    24. Member sandiegan's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 25th, 2005
      Location
      LA Section 8 Housing
      Posts
      4,569
      Vehicles
      A bicycle.
      07-23-2010 10:36 AM #24
      I thought it was interesting. I guess I'm an artard

      10% failure is just that -- 90% don't have any issues. Doesn't make a fear of IMS failure on a Boxster "foolish"

    25. 07-23-2010 10:39 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by patrickvr6 View Post
      If you don't find it interesting stop replying to the thread and bumping it to the top.

      "How can you be so obtuse?"
      BC it's fun watching the foolish continue to pile on. Keep it up, though.

      FWIW, why is it that the folks selling snake oil (whoops, I meant IMS/RMS solutions) are the only ones coming up w/the "10%" figure?


    26. Member sandiegan's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 25th, 2005
      Location
      LA Section 8 Housing
      Posts
      4,569
      Vehicles
      A bicycle.
      07-23-2010 10:46 AM #26
      I've seen numbers higher than 10% speculated on the Boxster forums before, but it's just that -- speculation. Even if it's 5%, that's not a very robust design.

    27. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2nd, 2003
      Location
      Shelby Township, MI
      Posts
      15,429
      Vehicles
      5.7, 5.3 & 5.0
      07-23-2010 10:51 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by esrballa View Post
      All 911s except the Turbo, GT2, and GT3
      So, I would not have to worry about the IMS failing if I bought a 996 Turbo? That is great.
      Quote Originally Posted by admirallaserbeam
      Rotary engines suck, dont get the miata
      2014 Chrysler 300S Hemi AWD | 2011 Chevrolet Silverado 4x4 | 2000 Four Winns H180LS

      RareSportBikesForSale.com | CarCast | German Cars For Sale Blog

    28. Member Peloton25's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 1st, 2001
      Location
      California, USA
      Posts
      8,889
      Vehicles
      '09 MINI Cooper S; '03 MR2 Spyder; '03 Focus ZX3
      07-23-2010 10:53 AM #28
      Should I save Obin the trouble of repeating himself?

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post66586742

      >8^)
      ER

    29. Member patrickvr6's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2001
      Location
      Atlanta GA
      Posts
      8,509
      Vehicles
      '87 930 '77 Bronco '01 325iTSC '08 Xterra
      07-23-2010 10:54 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by 2VWatatime View Post
      BC it's fun watching the foolish continue to pile on. Keep it up, though.
      We will all be here waiting for you to make something that resembles a point.
      Do you want to ride to 60 in three seconds or drive there in five?

    30. 07-23-2010 11:52 AM #30
      IIRC, Porsche (and Bosch?) came up with a new design for the RMS...

      The IMS is definitely an issue, It's hard to say whether it is a lack of maintenance or combination of a failure in design and maintenance...

      The GT1 derived engines are bulletproof...

    31. 07-23-2010 12:59 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by patrickvr6 View Post
      We will all be here waiting for you to make something that resembles a point.
      And your point is what, exactly? That the TCL needs more threads on this?

      Heh.

      Keep it up, though.

    32. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 1st, 2003
      Location
      Raleigh, NC
      Posts
      22,282
      Vehicles
      08 Elantra, 12 Focus
      07-23-2010 01:39 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by koidragon1980 View Post
      If Jesus is your pilot, then irony is your vehicle.

    33. Member Dan92SLC's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 27th, 1999
      Location
      SK RI
      Posts
      6,170
      Vehicles
      08 Mazda 3 hatch, 71 911T, 94 Ranger XLT
      07-23-2010 01:46 PM #33
      Anyone calling Jake Raby or LN Engineering snake oil salesmen is ...out of the depth, to put it politely.

    34. Member John Y's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 27th, 1999
      Location
      Brooklyn to Hannover, Germany
      Posts
      5,723
      Vehicles
      Old World: 2015 BMW X1. New World: 2015 GTI S, 93 Corrado SLC
      07-23-2010 01:51 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Black06GLI View Post
      IIRC, Porsche (and Bosch?) came up with a new design for the RMS...

      The new RMS design is made of PTFE, and comes mounted on a plastic holder that is supposed to completely avoid the thing being touched or handled on it's way into the hole; the dealer just put one in on my Boxster this week They also replaced the IMS seal at the same time. I had noticed the modest leak from the typical location, and they said, after running the engine with some dye added for tracing the leak, that both were leaking. Thank god for CPO, or it would have been a very expensive week. An oxygen sensor went out for good measure, though I assume they might have broken it during all the r/r work, or gotten some solvent or oil on it when cleaning the bellhousing. Hopefully I will not be back for future leaks, or for the IMS itself...

    35. 07-23-2010 02:03 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Peloton25 View Post
      Should I save Obin the trouble of repeating himself?

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post66586742

      >8^)
      ER
      Excuses are all fine and good, but don't really address the root of the problem, which is poor engineering.

      Don't get me wrong, I loved my '01 Boxster (for several reasons), but I was always a bit miffed that I was driving something that has a reputation for being well built and being very sound on the engineering front, but just wasn't. Whatever the failure rate, just the fact that it is this large of an issue is telling.

      As far as Raby's fix, as I said in an earlier thread, how to we know that it fixes anything? The sample size is just to small to tell.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •