2004 Beetle Convertible Electric ROOF Horror Story

[volks_r_us]

Hi guys

I am trying to fix my GF 2004 convertible New beetle.
The roof doesn't go down completely. once you lower it it get stuck down. you need to wait a few min to be able to lift it back.

Once it's down both flaps stay up and will not lower.
also once you raise the top windows don't come up.

I am lucky and have a vag-Com and was able to scan the car

I got 2 faults code.

02000- Switch position
008 - implausible signal - intermittent
01091- Switch front Canopy (F202)
008 - implausible signal - intermittent


I dismantled the plastic to get to the F202 Switch , which was a real pain and press the switch a few times , turn the ignition on off a few time and was able to completely lower the roof and flaps. But the windows didn't roll up. Same things happens when I raise the roof no windows movement.

I noticed while reading on the forum that some of you guys when you activated the roof you get a beeping sound. I don't , Only a flashing light.

Any ideas what I should do next ? replace F202 ?

I took some picture

F202


when roof is up and latch open just before you lower the roof F202 controls the flaps



This time roof when almost down but not completely and not lock
flap stayed up the little slider driver sides is a bit sticky


Slider ok here


Stuck slider that pop out as soon as you touch it


Roof is frozen that way , wont come up or down. took about 5 min of playing with windows and ignition switch to unlock the system.



Anybody know someone who has experience with those roof ?
I am starting to think that the pump might be weak and is causing the sensor to go crazy when it doesnt go down completely before going in protection mode
Thanks

[SB_Beetle]

Tried raising and lowering windows with the 'all' window button? The switches are inter-related and may need to be reset.

[volks_r_us]

Tried raising and lowering windows with the 'all' window button? The switches are inter-related and may need to be reset.

Thanks for the tips , I already did that multiple time doesn't solve the problem.
Also in measuring block on Vag com windows are synchronized


Codes always come back after I try to lower the roof . I think there my be a wiring issue with the ECM
Anybody know is the code 02000 automatically trigger when you have a switch problem. Like a Generic code that pop when a switch is faulty or this code is associate to a particular switch ?

[jef@rosstech]

Sounds like you've got a sticking roof position switch going on. It is located on the the right side hydraulic ram. It s a plastic piece that is snapped onto the body of the ram. This item has 2 micro switches and the switch that sends the closed position signal gets stuck, so that as the top opens and triggers the open signal, the roof electronic freaks out because now it is getting an open AND closed signal at the same time.

01091- Switch front Canopy (F202)
008 - implausible signal - intermittent

Open the top some and grab the hook that is on the right side and see if there is any free play in it. Then compare it to the hook on the left side which will not have free play in it. I don't know why, but the right side hook on these cars will get free play in them, never the left side. The right side hook, when the top is closed and latched, that hook triggers that switch. But if there is free play in it, it doesn't travel far enough to trigger the switch.

[volks_r_us]

Thanks for the Reply Jeff I think this open a new possibilty to finaly get this thing done

I just ordered from the Dealer a F202 I will only get it Monday

One thing is different from what you are saying, Apparently F202 is located around the windsheild on right side roof lock latch.



The micro switch you are talking about on the right side are the one on the hydraulic roof piston ?
These are F171 I think.
If there is a loose and they get out of timing they will make F202 code pop out instead of F171, Even if no switch is faulty ?

I am trying to figure out why I do not get any codes from F171. I will go check for a loose in that area

[volks_r_us]

Jeff I am not sure which hook you are talking about ?
the hook that lock the roof down ?

I took some picture of the area , I clearly see the plastic piece clip on the right side roof piston but dont see the switch. I might are to remove the quarter inner skin to see it

If you can try to pin point or explain to me which hook should be loose this would be big help

[jef@rosstech]

The hook as seen just above the head rest, this hook will get loose and not do it's full travel when you lock the top in the full closed position. The F202 switch at the top of the right side windshield rarely goes bad... it happens, but that hook is more common failure. When you close the top, does the status display go from amber to blue? Do the flaps go down when you lock the top in it's closed position?



You can see part of the top position switch in this photo, it is the piece of plastic that surrounds the the hydrolic line going into the ram. It is about 12" long I guess with another 12" piece that slides in and out of it.

My flight is boarding.....

[volks_r_us]

I checked the Hooks for a Slack or loose, Looks the same to me

Please dont try to listen to the late Friday afternoon beer break in the back , has nothing to do with me or the car


This will make things much easier. I added videos of the roof in operation, first vids is what happen when you try to lower the roof.


notice that the roof in not completely close flaps stay up and orange light flashing. I jerk the button to show that I am pressing and it's not working. Whole system is not responding

you wait 5-10 min ignition off
this is what happens


It will fully go down and lock up like it should. Then I press the button to close the Roof (orange light come on) to show the it will go up without any problem, Then back down and up down. if I pass Haft way up (further then what you see in video) and go back down it will not close completely and Freeze again for 5-10 min

When roof is all the way open it will Always completely close on first attempt but will not go completely down if you pass haft way up. This bug is haunted
But we all like that dont we

[jef@rosstech]

Top position switch all day long. Like I said, the switch sticks for the "closed" position as you open it, then when the other switch for the "open" position gets triggered, the roof electronics is now getting an "closed" and "open" signal at the same time.... does not compute! So it just stops. In your case, after 5 to 10 minutes, the switch for the "closed" signal unsticks and the top works.

Go into 26-08-001, field 3 and 4. With the top closed and lock, status display blue, you should see:

00 110 - 001001

I'm working off memory here so bear with me. The first part, 110 means top locked and closed. Now unlock the top, the status display goes amber, the flaps go up and you get this reading:

00 010 - 001001

Top unlocked, but still closed. Now start to open the top and let it get stuck, you should now see:

00 011 - 001001

That translate into top unlocks, open and closed. You shouldn't ever see 011. When the top starts to work again, it will look like this:

00 001 - 001001

Top unlocked and in open position. When you fully open the top and the top locks cycle, flaps go down, you should have this now:

00 001 - 010010

Top fully opened and locked.... PARTY!

When things are working correctly, as you open the top and it has moved maybe the first foot or so, it should read like this:

00 000 - 001001

That is a reading of a top that is not locked, not opened or closed. Roof electronics doesn't know where it is, but knows where it isn't.... opened or closed.

Then at the point where you are getting stuck, what it should be reading is:

00 011 - 001001

--------------------------------------------------

Oh no, I started to open the top and it is getting ready to rain, so I need to close it but the top is stuck for 10 minutes. No problem. Go to to the right rear of the car and put your hand under the very first fold of the top and push up some like you might be trying to close the top, just push up a few inches. Have a helper then move the switch in the center console to the close position, the top will close. When you push up some, you undo the "open" position signal, so now the roof electronics only sees 1 signal and will allow the pump to operate.

Anywho.... the part number that I'm 99.99999% sure that has failed here is 1Y0 959 985A.

--------------------------------------------------


On the hook issue. With the top open some, hit the "push" button and twist the top release handle and watch the 2 hooks rotate in and out. Now with one hand on the right hook and the other hand on the twisty handle thingie, try to hold the hook very still and try to twist the handle. They should be a solid direct link. Now compare the left hook to twisty handle test. If you twist the handle just a little bit, the hook must move. If you can hold the hook still and twist the handle some, then the hook is shifting on it's shaft, thus that hook is not fully engaging when locking the top, and on the right side, may not be triggering that F202 switch. I've replaced more top latch units than F202 switches. The switches can go bad, but the latch is more likely to go bad based on what I've seen since 2003.

[volks_r_us]

I think your memory is 99% right very impressive , Thanks

here is what I got
Roof open (00 010 001001) then Jam with the flap open you see (00 011 001001) Then I play with F202
ON (00 011 001001) OFF (00 111 001001)
Then I Bang on the Windsheild frame right on the switch (00 010 001001) Roof if now operational and close. The banging could be just fluke thought

The Dealer received my F202 but I returned the delivery guy and said I will pick it up later. What do you think ? sound like a Sticky F202 ?
Does F202 correspond to
00 111 001001
........^
........|
........|
........|

00 111
00 110 seems to be the sticky one that cut everything

[jef@rosstech]

I called it out... the top position switch is sticking in the closed position so that the roof electronics ends up receiving both a closed top and open top at the same time. Order this part:

1Y0 959 985A.

I've edited my other post about the switch conditions, I had the 010010 wrong, it should be 001001 when the top is not locked in the full open position. At the end of the video when you are able to finally get the top fully opened, you can hear that high pitched whirling noise (53 second point to 55 second) is when the top locks are securing the top, once they cycle, you then have the 010010 reading and the flaps go down, then the status display goes blue again.

When you are triggering the F202 at the top of the windshield frame, the roof electronics is getting the signal, so electrically that switch is good.

[volks_r_us]

Many thanks Jeff , you are the man

Car is fix and everything is working perfeclty

I added a video of how the switch work when the roof is working like it should



And some pics of the Disaster

[Tinderstick]

Hi. You two guys are awesome.

I am from Europe, and currently I live in Switzerland and I seem to have exactly same problem. I don't know, but what I saw on the video posted looks exactly the same as what I experience. I put the roof down and it seems to stuck exactly the same.

I took it to the official VW service and they detected these two error codes

02000
008

They charged 100$. Car was insured with the used car insurance they told them that the problem is mechanic and the insurance don't want to cover since they said they only cover electronics. VERY VERY frustrating. Now the guy from the service asks 1000 $ to fix the problem. This seems to be Swiss way,don't think just change the whole thing. Anyway I am so upset now that I want to do it myself or with help of few experienced friends. Problem is that I don't know where to start.

So the first thing is that the issue looks exactly the same as yours volks. Exactly I can even make the roof go down after playing with windows and waiting. So I guess if it would be mechanical problem I could never put the roof down.

Now I have couple of questions for you (don't laugh at me please, since as you will see I am completely blunt):

- What program are you using to get that "01001" like report? What cables etc. do I need to get that?

-How did you get "1Y0 959 985A" and how much did it cost, since I can't find it by simple googling?

Thank you in advance for your help.

UPDATE.
In the diagnose protocols I found (though the are in German, which I don't speak really well) some numbers below the error codes:
Diagnose

00 001
001011

Don't know if this is of any help, but if this is related to switches second one looks a bit weird compared to what you were writing above (should be 001010).

[jef@rosstech]

001011

If that reading is from 26-08-001, field #4, then you have a bad left side lock asm. They look like this:


This is a photo of a right side unit... one of the spare units I have sitting around.

The items with the "blue dots" on them, those are the micro switches. One is triggered when the top lock asm is "unlocked" the other is triggered when in the "locked" position. The photo above shows it in the "unlocked" position.

What has happened to your car, the "unlocked" micro switch is sticking, so when it goes to lock the top down after it has fully opened up, the computer is now getting info from that unit saying that it is both "unlocked" and "locked" at the same time. It is like divide by 0.

What you should be reading is 26-08-001 field 4 when the top is open is "001001".

[Tinderstick]

What has happened to your car, the "unlocked" micro switch is sticking, so when it goes to lock the top down after it has fully opened up, the computer is now getting info from that unit saying that it is both "unlocked" and "locked" at the same time. It is like divide by 0.

What you should be reading is 26-08-001 field 4 when the top is open is "001001".

Hi. First of all thank you very much for such a fast reply. Second of all it is impressive how much knowledge you have, unlike the guys here.

As for my question, those numbers I quoted were taken from the "diagnostic protocols" that were sent to me by the VW service upon request. As you can see I am not too technical person but I believe I am fast learner, so I understand what you are saying to me. Now the numbers I provided you with are the numbers from those "diagnostic protocols" that are listed just below the error report. I assume they were made on the stacked roof and are reading exactly what you are describing (and it is true that they are from the left side).

What is puzzling for me how come I can still put the roof down after "reseting" with all four windows up and down if this piece is broken?

Second question is that probably in order to fix the roof I need to change this part completely?

I could probably still push it trough the insurance since that part contains the motor, but it is not very likely they will accept it. Now if it comes to the worse do you happen to konw rough price of that part? The guy here told me it costs 700$. Is it possible it is so expensive?

[jef@rosstech]

The numbers you posted, I'm assuming they are info from measuring blocks. Measuring blocks are the data that a control module is receiving. In this case, the "1" and "0" data is just simple on/off data from micro switches.

I've seen where the micro switches stick for X amount of time. Based on the info you provided, with the left side top lock asm sending both an "unlocked" and "locked" signal at the same time, all functions of the top will freeze up. Now after so much time, the "unlocked" micro switch pops free and is no longer sending a signal, so the control module sees everything as normal again and will allow things to continue to work. My guess is you running the windows up and down is just buying time until the "unlocked" switch pops free. In other words, doing nothing for 2 minutes would give the same results.

The micro switches are not sold separately, you have to purchase the whole top lock unit. I think the part number is "1Y0 871 661 C". I'm 99% sure that is the part you would need... 1% chance of me being wrong... again.

If the "electronics" is covered, then I would think this is covered. An input switch that the roof electronics uses is failing. Best of luck.

[Tinderstick]

Dear Jeff,

I was busy last week so did not have time to properly thank you for your advices.


Thank you a lot.

[Ryno61]

Hello Jeff,

I have just come across this thread and i am having a similar problem, your expertise would be greatly appreciated.

I purchased my wife as a surprize a VW 2003 Beetle Convertible from the auctions last week and took it straight to the mechanic to sort out the problems. I am in Sydney, Australia so it is RHS drive.
I left it with them for two days and they sorted out the majority of the problems that showed on the computer and completed a nice full service. He was not able to solve the problems with the roof in the time i left it with them.

They showed me what the computer showed up and that they had fixed the other items. I forgot ask to take the print out with me, but from memory the errors on the roof were the E137 and F202 switches.

So I have given my wife the car she is wrapped but would like the roof fixed. I wanted to book it back in with the mechanic but they are flat out the next few weeks. I decided to try and find the problem myself to make it easy for them to complete the works.

The cars roof acts very similar to what "volks_r_us" explained except it will come right back up no problem and we have not been able to get it to go completely down with the flaps back down. But once the roof does come back up and locked into position the windows do not go back up into their original position.
Once the roof is down it makes a noise on both sides that i think i could hear on the other video. I have just filmed the roof going down it is night and in the garage so not the best but wanted show the noise it makes.


I have tired a few things like leaving it down with the ignition off for 5-10mins and lifting the back right while it is down as well, but this did not allow the flaps to go down.
Happy to submit some more photos or another video.

[Ryno61]

I asked the mechanic to fax me the scan results on the roof,

I have copied them here the best i can:

Address 26: Auto Roof
Part No: 1Y0 959 255
Component: VSG NBC 2604

7 Faults Found:
02000 - Switch Position
008 - Implausible Signal
02460 - Position Sensor for Left Linkage Flap Position Sensor (G442)
009 - Open or Short to Ground
02461 - Position Sensor for Right Linkage Flap Position Sensor (G443)
009 - Open or Short to Ground
02464 - Switch for left convertible top locking (F323)
008 - Implausible Signal
01091 - Switch Front Canopy (F202) open
008 - Implausible Signal
02468 - Motor for left convertible top locking (V291)
012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit
02469 - Motor for Right Convertible Top Locking (V292)
012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit

Hope this help with working out the problem.

[Dana @ Ross-Tech]

Hi,

I'm not the NBC roof tech, but Jef worked on this recently:



The HD video can be viewed directly on You Tube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTrK...er_profilepage


We will have updated videos and/or tech tip related material in the Ross-Tech Wiki later. You will however need VCDS to further diagnose the system and see the mentioned MVBs, but your shop may be able to use that video to help clarify the readings and fault codes.

[Ryno61]

Hello Dana,

Thanks for your reply and I had a look at the video.

I tired the troubleshooting but did not fix unfor tunately.

My friend has one of these machines will see if can try the Measuring blocks to see what results.

I had a look on the wiki but could not find any of my error codes other than 02000.

Its been pouring here is Sydney so no need for the convertible atm.

[Dana @ Ross-Tech]

The VCDS label file will detail all of the MVB info shown with VCDS. However, using the repair manual and searching the wiring diagrams and component locations for components like V291m F202, etc ... will help you locate them on the vehicle.

[Ryno61]

I made a visit to my mechanic on Friday and he completed some testing.
First he cleared the previous error codes and then found only one error showed up after putting the roof up and down a few times.

This is the error:

02464 - Switch for Left Convertible Top Locking (F323); Open
008 - Implausible Signal

So then the mechanic went through the Measuring blocks.
Have put the top 4 boxes results below:
Down: Open Not Oper. 00 000 001001
Stops: Open Not Oper. 00 001 010001
Up: Closed Not Oper. 00 001 000001

The last box seems to be the difference.

After a closer look and matching the left side to the right side i could see the problem with the locking motor arm that is seen in the above in the photo. The arm at the top of the locking motor is not locking down on the knob (on the left side). Have attached two photos.

Right side locked


Left side not locked


I visited the VW dealer to see how much the left motor cost they quoted me $1400 here in Australia for the part only + labour. But they said i would need to get them to diagnose the car which they said could be between $200 - $500. I have said i will take the car back later next week for them to diagnose.

But thought i would see if anybody could help me with the problem on here again now that i have provided more information.

Not sure if this is related but searching forums on the convertible it could be related.
But the locking switch inside the door on the left hand side does not work.
Also, as mentioned the above once the roof is returned up the windows do not return to their original position.

Cheers

[gregoryw]

I had the same codes on an '05 that I recently purchased for resale. It only has 27,000 miles, so I was surprised to see a problem. Of course it was out of warranty and there was no secrete warranty on this. (It pays to check.) Until I noted this post, I was thinking it was the switch on the top of the windshield or the controller itself. After all, the code refers to F202 which is over the windshield.
02000- Switch position
008 - implausible signal - intermittent
01091- Switch front Canopy (F202)
008 - implausible signal - intermittent

Fortunately, the Ross Tech Wiki and this post led me to the F171 switch. Since this thread did not contain much information about what is involved in replacing the switch, I thought I would contribute to the body of knowledge and give a thanks to the previous contributors.

Most could probably figure out that you do have to remove the rear bench seat and back. You also have to remove the right side rear panel. There is one bolt that you may overlook. It is at the rear of the car on the side panel. Otherwise, the panel pulls away without breaking anything.

Once the panel is removed, you can see more of the switch. It has a cord about a foot long that runs down to a connector. Pulling the switch off the hydraulic cylinder proved to be a challenge. I'm not sure if it was easier with the top up or retracted. I ran it both directions before I was able to get it off. Likewise on installing the new part. It is sort of a force fit. Mine had a zip tie over the connector end that surrounded the ball at the end of the piston. I used a new tie on the new part. Just good insurance that it will not come undone.

I checked my old part electrically and found that one of the two micro-switches was indeed sticking. You could shake the assembly and it would change from closed to open. That exactly duplicated what was happening in use. As you will recall, both switches were in closed position when the top was near open. This confused the controller and it just stopped working in either direction.

The cost of the repair was about $58 retail for the part and about three hours of labor. I can't be sure on the time because I got interupted several times.

[german_nbc]

Hello Friends of the NBC,

my name is Marco from Germany and I currently have the same problem as Ryno61 already mentioned. While opening the roof, the process is interrupted, the flaps remain open and the roof cannot be opened or closed for about 10 minutes. While checking the mechanics I have seen that the locking motor on the right side is not locking down. This happens ever and anon, sometimes everything works fine. I visited my local VW dealer which does not have any experience concerning roof problems related to the NBC. All he did was accomplishing a diagnosis with the result that the locking parts on the left and on the right side (1Y0 871 661 and 1Y0 871 662) must be replaced (for about 1500 Euros!!) . Last week I was very lucky because i got both parts for a few euros including one year warranty. Is it really possible that one (or both) of the two locking motors are on the blink or could this have another reason? Thanks for your support guys!

P.S. I never found a forum treating with NBC problems which has such a high quality! Fantastic!

Greetings from Germany,
Marco

[jthearne]

So can you hard code with VCDS - I just want to turn off the chime from the top sensor and use the top manually?

[Dave Lewis]

Guys
Have same symptons as solved on here.

Roof won't go last part down.

It used to drop the last bit after a short drive but now it stays unlocked.

Thinking about getting the diagnostics and solving it myself.

Can someone advise how the rear O/S side panels comes off, if the microswitches need replacing?

cheers
Dave

[Dave Lewis1]

Soft top now works better than ever.

Thanks to all the posts.

Call me if your beetle cabriolet roof is not working.

Dave

[jthearne]

What did you do to fix it?

[marknor2002]

Jeff ....how hard is it to install a new top micro switch (Part# 1Y0 959 985A)?