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    Thread: 8v Build~84 Rabbit Wolfsburg Drop top

    1. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      1984 VW Rabbit Convertible Wolfsburg Edition
      08-11-2010 10:03 PM #1


      I am calling on my fellow VW enthusiasts for some much needed advice and direction. At 430,000 KMs my car is in need of a rebuild. After I bought it, (FOR 50 BUCKS!) it sat for 3 years before I started it, and started with a jump.

      It ran rough at first, (I now know it would have been better to put a fuel filter in) and has been fairly reliable, aside from battery drain. I have already corrected some electrical, like the battery to starter, battery to body ground, (this wire had 2 ground points on it originally, I just did one to the frame here) and removed other bad wiring.
      I found a blue and white wire in the fuse box completely melted back.
      I am guessing it was for the 12v cigarette lighter which is not hooked up.
      There are a few other wires melted together there, but just the casings.
      I can address the electrical by replacing wire by wire.
      The other issues I have had were the long warm up period. After starting, the engine would idle very low, with the red light in the dash indicating battery, and there was 8 to 10 volts available. It seemed to keep going, though, the first couple of minutes without touching the gas pedal.
      After pushing the accelerator, often past 2500 RPM, the voltage would go up to 12v, the battery light would turn off, but would drop the idle down to 500-600 if you took your foot off the gas. The idle would slowly improve if it kept running. If you tried to drive cold, there was no power and it would stall.
      After 5 minutes, it would be warmed up enough to drive. By the time it was warm, the voltage was mostly steady as it was driven. It would run reliably, although it had bouncy acceleration in mid pedal. It always starts hot, and could drive right away. Not so much after 40 minutes.
      When i was shifting and other times, the bar gauge was all over the place, between 1 and 3.5!
      Whew!! What does it all mean?
      Recently, after driving for a year, I replaced the fuel filter. That day, I kept stalling at every stop sign, but I guessed it was from really low fuel. The fuel was DIRTY!
      After, it ran pretty good, better than usual. More power. I put my last 20 in the tank, and noticed the fuel pump got very loud, then quiet, then loud, then quiet. I parked the car, and it died. I can hear the pump priming when I turn the key, as usual, but I turn all the way to start, and the starter motor is trying, but no start. My car has died.
      So I am in rebuild mode.
      Engine as it sits now, in the Convertible:


      A better view of the head; It is stamped 26103373H. (With a 52 above it). JH European head.
      Solid lifter, 40 intake 33 exhaust. 8mm valve stems. Made in Germany.

      This is the other side of the engine bay, with battery and air flow sensor.

      Here is a pic of a mystery plug in the back behind the air sensor box, it has 3 wires leading to a female 5 slot plug. No idea where this plugs in. It has been there like that since I bought the car in 2007.


      I have a brand new fuel pump, fuel injectors, seals, fuel distributor rebuild kit, (to ensure proper operation of the fuel distributor plunger).

      I bought a brand new Bosch distributor, just showed up! (Old one was worn out, at about 60%)

      Here is another view, has hall sender with rectangular 3 plug. Date stamp on this part is 1984, and the bottom of the shaft says 2322. The only other option was to buy a distributor with a knock sensor, and I would have had to get a computer for it and wiring harness.

      Brand new Bosch ignition coil, plugs, wires, oil and fuel filter. I will likely buy a new oil pump and did buy a new warm up regulator. What else is a wearing part likely to cause me grief?????? I want a reliable car.
      I am also installing a big bore throttle body, and likely stage 1 or 3 intake manifold. Tri-y headers with cat, and aluminized exhaust, new throttle cable. As for the existing TB, this is what sits in the car.

      There is a tutorial but it uses a different throttle body in the photos. http://www.vintagewatercooleds.com/t...rottlebody.htm
      There is another link to a page with more info on what I generally hope to accomplish.
      http://www.scirocco.org/tech/mk2/5000tb/5000tb.html#fox
      The one I bought has a throttle position sensor apparently, (oops) with 3 wires out the bottom of the unit. It has been pointed out by some experts the Big Bore TB in the pics will only work with an automatic, the Convertible has a manual 5 speed 020.
      Here's a photo if anyone know exactly what it is. VW and Audi stamped on it, and DVG Made in W Germany on it.
      There is a side panel stamped
      BO 236
      037
      061 K
      Date stamp is 1989

      Could anyone identify which vacuum ports are these two (#2 and #3) and I guess #1 is the mix screw. There is also another vacuum port on the other side, not visible in this photo, But can clearly be seen here.

      The two visible vacuum ports here go right through to the inside wall of the TB, the side towards the intake manifold. Advice greatly appreciated.
      Another view:

      So I am in the market for a Fox? or Cabriolet? Intake manifold 88-89.

      Okay, transmission of power;
      I found a heavy duty Sachs clutch kit, it has 20% increased clamping force.
      Pressure plate, clutch disc, throwout bearing, push rod, bushing and seal, clutch cable and all new bolts, and the release arm just in case. Elring mainshaft seal; Crankshaft seal is silicone. (I will get a new flywheel if needed).


      My front windshield is cracked, and the "chrome trim" is junk. I will clean corrosion and fix it.
      It is leaking slightly into the car when it rains. There is a small rusty patch by the driver wiper.
      I am cheap, so I will find a used glass in great shape off some old junkpile.
      GLUED-IN:
      1983-1984 GTI
      1984 Rabbit
      1983-1984 Pickup
      1989-1993 Cabriolet

      RUBBER SEAL:
      1975-1982 All models (Rabbit, Pickup, Jetta, Rabbit Convertible)
      1980-1989 Rabbit Convertible/Cabriolet

      Some time in mid-late 1989 was the changeover for the Cabriolet.
      2-door and 4-door models are all the same within the groups (i.e. a 1990 Cabriolet windshield will work on a 1984 Rabbit LS 4-door).
      The windshield frames are all the same, so conceivably, you can swap between the two. I've gone both ways on this (put a glue-in in a rubber-style seal windshield, and put a rubber-seal into a glue-style). Each conversion has it's caveats, but it can be done. What can NOT be done, is use a glue-in windshield with a rubber seal on it. You have to glue it in place.

      While everything is apart and accessible, what else do I address?
      Any advice for how to make it a success?
      The car itself is in great shape, and the parts were all very cheap, but good German stuff. Clearout sales abound if you are willing to spend the time to find them. For me, the last 6 months a couple of hours a day looking through the back pages of the internet. Oh, the Bentley manual is on the way too.
      I just traded work for a 1983 GTI, all the serial numbers of the cis system match, and it has a 1.8 block, with 026103373f head. This engine sits with 248,000 kms, (a lot less than the 430,000 kms on the convertible engine.) I am in the process of rebuilding this GTI engine, it will be going in a hot bath next couple of days. New crankshaft, rods, pistons will be ordered soon, after verifying the block and head are in good shape. Bearings, seals and gaskets will also be new. No problem.
      I will likely bore to 81.5 if necessary, and want to rebuild the head. G grind would be awesome! Scientific Rabbit or Autotech? Who to go with? Both heads I have are German. Autotech has Zylinderkopf...Port, no polish! And I do have a spare head...
      Special thanks to Ze Germans for making great castings.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-18-2013 at 05:34 AM.

    2. Member Brunke_Stunkelmyer's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 01:43 AM #2
      Somethings that might need a test would be the control pressure regulator, and idle stabilizer valve. maybe even your 5th injector.
      When I got my rabbit both my iddle stabilizer vlave and 5th injector needed some attention, after sitting for a while.


      PICTURES PLEASE!!!
      Minimalism.

      "OEM as f*ck"

    3. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 02:10 AM #3
      #1 is just the Idle Bypass screw, That is for adjusting idle speed. And that TB looks very much like one off of an auto tranny Passat, thus the TPS on the bottom. I have one on my car with the MS.

      I would do a compression test to see where that is at, and if it is good, throw all the new stuff on it and see how it runs after that. If you still want to rebuild it, get new bearings, seals and gaskets and rings, hone the cylinders and have the head refreshed and put on the new rings and the new pump and that should be good. If you want to have a real nice running motor, have the IM shaft balanced along with the bottom-end (including the pp and flywheel) and you'll love it.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    4. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      1984 VW Rabbit Convertible Wolfsburg Edition
      08-12-2010 02:43 AM #4
      I have a 5 speed 020 in the car...
      The compression tests for the convertible engine Are 150, 150, 145, 150. (From drivebelt side).
      Would you rebuild this engine if that was your reading? (Assuming, of course you love 1.8L engines?)

      These readings were done the same day the fuel filter was changed, and the car died, late July, 2010.
      The fuel pump fuse was removed for these tests.
      In the cylinder reading 145 (#3 piston), there was an issue before. The car had been sitting for a few years before I started it with jumper cables, (October 2009) I did not realize this spark plug was not firing for a couple of months. (I did the first tune up of replacing rotor, cap, plugs, wires, oil filter, oil and refreshing the K&N air filter in Dec. 2009).
      I was hoping the parts tune would help, it got me around for a while, but it was obvious there was more to it than just that. It needs to be adjusted at all points, and that is a real skill.
      There was also a new radiator and expansion tank installed at that time, it just had a rad with a cap when I got it. It leaked. Now it doesn't!
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-16-2010 at 12:07 AM.

    5. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 03:40 AM #5
      The rings must be done on the engine as it sits, at least! I know that the oil seal is leaking, because of the blue smoke coming from the exhaust when throttle is applied. Could I get away with just new gaskets and rings? A vehicle with this much mileage would need bearings, would it not?
      Where do I get VW vacuum hose? I may as well do it, the car is 26 years old! Should be pretty simple, with a vacuum diagram.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-12-2010 at 05:26 AM.

    6. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 12:21 PM #6
      The valve stem seals come in a Head gasket set. And I have gotten away w/o doing bearings on a "refresh" in the past, but I also plasti-gaged the bearings to check the clearances.
      The vacuum hose can be had anywhere, it doesn't need to be "VW". And the TPS is not used with CIS. The auto uses the TPS for kick-down only.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    7. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 04:54 PM #7
      Will a MS bolt on to the bottom of this TB (or top?) so I can use it? I was told I only have to use two of the wires coming out the bottom to make it work. Only one of them will not be needed for the CIS, and will be negated. Any other opinions on the matter?
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-14-2010 at 07:06 PM.

    8. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 07:16 PM #8
      MS is not exactly a bolt-on affair. But it will use all three wires(5vdc, ground and reference). I think for the CIS to work, you would have to transfer the switches over. But I would compare the bore sizes to be sure that there is any benefit.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    9. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-12-2010 07:53 PM #9
      The amount of air this can push compared to what is on the car is BIG. I looked at mine, and it looked like the one in the picture on the tutorial. http://www.vintagewatercooleds.com/t...rottlebody.htm They compare the Scirocco 8v with the big valve, that is the difference.
      With a ported intake manifold, stage 1 or stage 3, combined with the large (40 and 33, respectively) valves on either of these heads, it is sure to improve. With headers after that, there is no restriction in the system. I am going to use a high flow cat, because I need to pass emissions tests. A windage tray underneath and oil shield on the top of the head (preventing oil blow-pass) will help with oil issues inherent in this car.
      So please lets figure out how to mod it! Maybe out of the bottom of that unit would be a full throttle switch! It came out of an Audi 5000, but it could have come from another car!
      If anyone knows how to mod this, let me know.
      It has VW and Audi stamped on it, and DVG Made in W Germany on it.
      There is a side panel stamped
      BO 236
      037
      061 K
      Date stamp is 1989!
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-27-2010 at 03:22 PM.

    10. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 01:28 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbitissimo View Post
      With headers after that, there is no restriction in the system.
      You are forgetting the biggest restriction on the "system", that is the head itself. A quality port job on it by someone who knows what they are doing will pay more dividends than almost all the others put together.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    11. Member B4S's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 01:57 PM #11
      Ok, someone should tell you that the 924 TB won't work because that TPS is a variable 0-5v signal, and the switches are open/closed 0v or 5v.
      Fick Deps?, Get Deb!

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      08-13-2010 02:24 PM #12
      Read through this a few times, and to be honest, it really is hard to make any kind of meaningful response due to the amount of bouncing around from item to item. I will give my thoughts on what I can pick out without digging too deep, and I guess I’ll wait untill later for any other question to pop up.
      > First the throttle body. It will not work in the current condition and there are no mounting holes to install a micro switch (I think that is what MS really refered to). Unless someone has some kind of trick to convert it to being able to mount throttle switches, you will have to get another one. I suggest finding a Cabby manifold and throttlebody being sold as a set on maybe Ebay. One from a newer Digifant engine (2H), the manifold is better flowing then the current one, forget that stage 1 and 2 stuff, and no grinding is needed to mount the larger TB, which if bought together is already mounted.
      > Although that ignition distributor is the correct one for the original engine, 1.7L, it is for an automatic. It might not have the very best advance curve for a manual. You can replace the vacuum advance canister with a single port one with no problems. The dual port was nothing but a quick emission thing really and is not needed. If you want something better, look for one used in the early RD or maybe HT engines (I can get a number if you like).
      > Which of the vacuum ports you will use depends on what has to be connected. The one facing the rear, not visible in the photo as you named it, is for sure manifold vacuum. I would think one of the front two is manifold vacuum and the other is ported vacuum. In any case, the TB can not really be used as I pointed out and things will change when you have the correct one. If only the vacuum advance will be connected then manifold vacuum is best.
      > That second ground should have been kept. VW often uses a ground cable that connects to the frame and the engine/transmission. If you no longer have that cable then get yourself one of those flat braded ground straps and run one(or more) from the engine to the chassis. Due to the rubber mounts it is important to have the engine grounded.
      > Think much of your charging issue is that mega power draw for a sound system. That is just a guess on my part it that is what the power take-off on the battery is for. Drawing a lot of power will put a load on the engine and cause it to have a poor idle at times. The dash light and having to race the engine to get it to charge sound like the alternator is going bad, it is not as some would say “normal”.
      > Again I assume here, but this bar gauge that bounces around, is it a vacuum gauge? If so it will move around a lot as it is sensing the changes in load on the engine. If it is an oil pressure gauge it will also move a lot, but not as fast or often as one for vacuum. Either one, or both as some like myself use, can help a lot if you learn how to read them and keep an eye on them for signs of trouble.

    13. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 03:08 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by B4S View Post
      Ok, someone should tell you that the 924 TB won't work because that TPS is a variable 0-5v signal, and the switches are open/closed 0v or 5v.
      Thank you! The guy that sold it to me assured me it was the same switches on the top, just a better unit with the switches integrated. There was just no other info at the time to find. Like wandering in the woods without a map. Okay, mystery solved. It doesn't have anywhere to mount switches up top, either. Anyone with an automatic out there need a TB? Hee Hee Or, I could just return it for a couple items he has I know I do need. I wish it worked; it would have cleaned up the look nicely.

    14. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 03:29 PM #14
      "> Although that ignition distributor is the correct one for the original engine, 1.7L, it is for an automatic. It might not have the very best advance curve for a manual. You can replace the vacuum advance canister with a single port one with no problems."

      +My distributor on the car is in desperate need of bushings. It is burning rotors badly. When you grab the rotor, it moves A LOT. I know a guy out in the bush that has a shop, and he has a lathe. He said we could just make some bushings. It seemed like a long shot to me. I could not find bushings for this anywhere. He also has machines to flatten heads and blocks. And a distributor tester.
      I guess the question is, would I get as much out of a rebuilt as I would out of this new model, even though it is for 1.7L?
      Would the advance curve be better suited to my car after switching the vacuum advance out? (25 bucks)
      Is the only other difference in the distributor the size of the windows inside the hall sender? Wouldn't I be able to bolt in a 1.8L sender to this unit that has the proper windows? Is it more than just the hall sender inside, is it a gear thing?
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-13-2010 at 04:52 PM.

    15. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 03:31 PM #15
      The windows should be the same on all 4 window dizzies. And as far as I can tell by looking thru my EKTA, there is no difference in dizzies with respect to what tranny is in the car. They are the same.
      Last edited by ps2375; 08-13-2010 at 03:35 PM.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    16. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 04:51 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by ps2375 View Post
      You are forgetting the biggest restriction on the "system", that is the head itself. A quality port job on it by someone who knows what they are doing will pay more dividends than almost all the others put together.
      Ah, but I am doing a head port. I have an extra German head, and am sending it out to Autotech or Scientific Rabbit after verifying it is good. Autotech's solution to porting is Zylinderkopf, which has sport springs and Ti retainers and other great stuff. Combine it with large intake, TB and headers, it will be a great car. Why do any of it if you don't do all of it?
      Any single part with restriction will prevent flow. I don't mind paying to have the head done! Even after reading the MASSIVE porting thread in here I don't know enough about it to do a good job!
      I would like to build the entire engine of the GTI, (Pics of the GTI engine are coming soon). and continue to use my Convertible until the GTI engine is ready to be installed. That way, I still have my daily driver. (If I can get it to run.)

    17. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 05:07 PM #17
      I don't remember seeing that you were going to have the head ported. And as far as the GTI motor, it should be as easy as a motor swap, with some minor fuel mixture adjustments. I have a 10:1 short block sitting in my garage, but I can't justify the rebuild of it since my current motor only has about 60K on it and is less than 3 yrs old (on its rebuild).FIXED
      Last edited by ps2375; 08-13-2010 at 06:51 PM.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    18. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 05:42 PM #18
      You are indeed lucky, with a motor that young. The great thing about these old cars is they were amazingly well made. Putting in new old stock parts is the closest you get to feeling like they drive new again. And a couple of modifications to improve what we have discovered to be their inherent weakness, we can expect them to perform like they were really meant to. Free up power.
      I have always liked this car, since it came out. A lot of cute girls tell me how much they like my car, and some just hop in for a ride. I haven't even fixed it yet!
      It IS the people's Porsche, and VW back then made quality, not like the cheap made in China stuff.
      I have spent less than 1000 dollars so far, and I could not even buy another used car in a questionable state of repair for that much.
      It is worth it to overhaul this car!
      The body and undercarriage are solid!
      The German made ones were treated with a polymer in all the likely rust areas, and the use of Zinc helps fight rust.
      I have owned and driven many cars, new and old, and yes, a Lotus performs better, but the Rabbit is just FUN!
      And a brake job doesn't cost thousands of dollars.
      Once I have this car running properly, I am going to custom paint, seats, new seals, top and blue furry headliner. A new Optima battery and the biggest alternator I can fit is also the plan.
      Speaking of alternators, anyone know how to put a HO Alt on this car? I love loud music.
      I especially love the simplicity of mechanical. There is logic. I have had SENSORS on other cars cost me over $1000!
      I once had an American made vehicle acting crazy almost claim my life as the on board computer crashed. It subsequently burst into flames as I was driving on the freeway.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 01-17-2011 at 05:12 AM.

    19. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 10:56 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Brunke_Stunkelmyer View Post
      Somethings that might need a test would be the control pressure regulator, and idle stabilizer valve. maybe even your 5th injector.
      When I got my rabbit both my iddle stabilizer vlave and 5th injector needed some attention, after sitting for a while.


      PICTURES PLEASE!!!
      Hi Brunke!
      The Warm Up Regulator A.K.A. control pressure regulator. This is a pretty integral piece of the fuel system. Not only does it work as a choke for start up, but also controls the amount of fuel available to the injectors.

      I bought a new one. It is still on the way, and I will have pics when it arrives. Then I will have two spares (off the Rabbit convertible and GTI) to attempt a mod to make it adjustable.

      The cold start valve on either car is rough. I will have to buy a new one, with gasket.
      Idle stabilizer valve. Does this car even have one?
      I have seen them in front of the intake manifold on newer cars, but does this car have one?
      Some California Rabbits have a digital idle stabilizer.
      It is integrated into the breakerless transistorized distributor system.
      (Hall sender ignition distributor).
      As far as I know, my car uses an idle boost valve.
      The auxiliary air valve is behind my intake manifold.
      The frequency valve is a part of the airbox/fuel distributor, it regulates the air-fuel ratio at the throttle body. I am having a hard time finding one. (at least the proper part#)
      I did find one but at $400 it will have to wait!
      Not to worry, I will provide play by play on this build as it happens!
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 10-10-2010 at 01:35 AM.

    20. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-13-2010 11:23 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by WaterWheels View Post
      > First the throttle body. It will not work in the current condition and there are no mounting holes to install a micro switch (I think that is what MS really refered to). Unless someone has some kind of trick to convert it to being able to mount throttle switches, you will have to get another one. I suggest finding a Cabby manifold and throttlebody being sold as a set on maybe Ebay. One from a newer Digifant engine (2H), the manifold is better flowing then the current one, forget that stage 1 and 2 stuff, and no grinding is needed to mount the larger TB, which if bought together is already mounted.
      .
      Interesting. I like this idea. No porting required? Better flow? Sign me up! But, are there any other issues to this manifold? How does it interact with CIS? I love CIS! I love mechanical! It is relatively affordable!
      There must be some way to change out the bottom plug on my TB and cause it to switch the way I want. There has got to be a way. The throttle valve opens when I push the gas, right? That sends a signal to where? Oh, I need the Bentley....!
      Patience, it is on its way...
      (The electrical diagram is somewhere, I will put it here soon.) We are in the technology age! It can be done.
      It sure does seem easier to just bolt something on, though...
      Anyways, on CIS the fuel is regulated by the air flow meter. Where do the signals from the TB go?
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 01-03-2011 at 03:33 AM.

    21. Member B4S's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 12:11 AM #21
      K.I.S.S.

      The main killer of projects is someone who thinks too much while trying to re-invent the wheel. Attempting to convert a TPS into two separate throttle switches is a pointless endeavor, considering you can get the TB you need from about 10 million Rabbits/Golfs/Jettas/Cabbies/Foxes/Audis/etc.

      The diagram above is for CIS-basic, no ECU.
      Fick Deps?, Get Deb!

    22. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 12:32 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by B4S View Post
      K.I.S.S.

      The main killer of projects is someone who thinks too much while trying to re-invent the wheel. Attempting to convert a TPS into two separate throttle switches is a pointless endeavor, considering you can get the TB you need from about 10 million Rabbits/Golfs/Jettas/Cabbies/Foxes/Audis/etc.

      The diagram above is for CIS-basic, no ECU.
      Just to be clear, the diagram above is CIS Lambda with ECU.
      I had originally posted CIS basic, but after the correction, it was changed to the correct one.

      Keep it simple stupid. Good idea.
      This is exactly why I am posting this build, to save me from myself.
      So is the 88-89 Cabriolet the way to go? It has micro switches? It will bolt on? I can keep my CIS? This car has an ECU? Where? Can I get rid of it?
      These may sound like crazy questions, but I have read A LOT of manuals, and I am not a Mechanic. I am just a Dude with a dream. To restore this car. My cousin helps me a lot, but he builds Chevy motors. The old ones. 454 with no computer, just Carbs.
      I really do appreciate all the advice, but I still have a question about this.
      If the micro switch on the throttle body as it sits only signals full throttle, why can't I just take that signal from one of the wires coming from the TPS? There are three. One is a ground. One is variable 0-5v. Is it possible one of them signals full throttle? What else would it do?
      I am dedicated to better flow, though. I am a hardcore driver, and can feel it is restricted.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 01-17-2011 at 05:19 AM.

    23. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 12:46 AM #23
      No, ECU.
      Looks like you only have a WOT switch. That takes the lamda off-line at WOT. Provides some enrichment then. I would build the motor, get it running nicely on the CIS and see where you want to go with it then. The CIS can support more power than an 8V will make NA, and the CIS when working properly will not go lean at higher rpm's like CIS-e tends to. It however does not like cams with lots of overlap at idle. That tends to worsen the lopey-ness that a big cam cam have, but off idle, it'll work just fine.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    24. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 12:55 AM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by WaterWheels View Post
      >1: That second ground should have been kept. VW often uses a ground cable that connects to the frame and the engine/transmission. If you no longer have that cable then get yourself one of those flat braded ground straps and run one(or more) from the engine to the chassis. Due to the rubber mounts it is important to have the engine grounded.
      >2: Think much of your charging issue is that mega power draw for a sound system. That is just a guess on my part it that is what the power take-off on the battery is for. Drawing a lot of power will put a load on the engine and cause it to have a poor idle at times.
      Thanks for taking the time!
      1. You are absolutely right. I did not realize it was the body and the tranny. I just thought it was 2 points on the body, and I was puzzled as to the redundancy. It did help, though...I will put that grounding point back on.

      2. The sound system. Oh, boy. When I first was looking into the wiring, the PO had put a cable through the firewall, in a bad spot, to power the amp. It rubbed against sharp metal. Then, they had stripped the wire bare 2" wide, wrapped a wire around it, then had several other wires coming off it for power of LED stuff! Then, they had put a 3v resistor in line with one of these wires, and tried to use that as switched power for the deck! To end the circuit, (I can only guess,) they had the last wire strapped to ground. WTF? It was the worst electrical I have ever seen. I can't believe it functioned! But it would only take 1 hour for the battery to drain out completely.
      When I hooked it up, I did it right, but I still have work to do to clean up the mess. The weird little red wire actually is for my wiper wash motor. There is a push button to operate it!

      I never turn my stereo on until the car is warm, and it is fine when it is running.
      I found switched power for my new deck from a black and yellow wire from the defrost switch, as per Cabby info. Works great.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-14-2010 at 04:33 AM.

    25. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 04:42 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by ps2375 View Post
      No, ECU.
      Looks like you only have a WOT switch. That takes the lamda off-line at WOT. Provides some enrichment then. I would build the motor, get it running nicely on the CIS and see where you want to go with it then. The CIS can support more power than an 8V will make NA, and the CIS when working properly will not go lean at higher rpm's like CIS-e tends to. It however does not like cams with lots of overlap at idle. That tends to worsen the lopey-ness that a big cam cam have, but off idle, it'll work just fine.
      A G-grind is the same thing as the Euro GTI, is it not? This is the cam I think I would love. If it cannot idle properly, I know I will hate the car after. I like the low end torque. I like to shift down to third to pass, then up to fourth to complete. Fifth to say "See Ya!"

      Okay, here is the lambda Closed loop system, and this will all have to tie into the works, if what you are saying about this car is correct. So whatever Big bore TB I get will have to work with this? Or does a different TB eliminate the Lambda? These are the questions. This is why were are here.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 09-06-2010 at 01:53 AM.

    26. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 10:20 AM #26
      The G grind cam will work just fine. And the Lambda system is a narrow-band sensor and thus has some limitations, the CIS will work just fine w/o it and can actually make better power w/o it. As long as you have the TB switch for WOT, the lambda system should work, if it is functioning now. The CIS can maintain the AFR that you adjust it to at idle pretty well, ours did anyway and we completely disabled the lambda part of the sytem.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    27. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-14-2010 08:12 PM #27
      Here it is! The GTI donor car engine before pictures;
      VIN decoder says this car is 1983 GTI, built in Westmoreland, Pennsylvania or Portugal.
      The "Made in USA" sticker leaves no doubt as to its origin.
      The head and block were both made in Germany.
      It looked like it was lightly T-boned on the driver side, but I know it was driven to the spot it sits now. It has been there for a couple of years, hood on.
      The Iron block has light surface rust, but a light sand blast and hot bath will take care of that, or show visible imperfections. I plan to install a new oil pan with windage tray. There will be update pics soon.
      The cast block will be machined flat, on mating surfaces. I will try to remove very little.

      The head will be cleaned up very gently, and once it is inspected it will be sent off to be ported and built. It looks like it will be in good shape.


      The donor car has a sunroof glass and mechanism/latch intact, if anyone is interested!
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 09-06-2010 at 02:05 AM.

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      08-15-2010 01:58 PM #28
      Man has a lot been typed in since my last visit here. I'd like to help where I can or maybe fill in some blanks if need be or discuss a issue, but that would require some and time well spent working on my own things. Never the less, here goes at least on some of the items above:

      ~ I only mentioned the battery thing as often people just don’t think about the load being placed on the alternator and engine when some mega power consumption item is switched on. Even having the headlights, heater fan, rear window defroster and foot on the brakes will cause the engine idle to go down and then maybe close to stalling. Throw into the mix a power amp and disco lights and it could be hard to keep the engine running smooth during stop light pauses.

      ~ Ps2375
      And as far as I can tell by looking thru my EKTA, there is no difference in dizzies with respect to what tranny is in the car. They are the same.
      Correct about the distributor being the same. I was looking at a Rabbit page and not the Cabby. Guess due to the extra weight the advance doesn’t matter as much if it is a standard or automatic.

      ~ B4S:
      K.I.S.S. . . The main killer of projects is someone who thinks too much while trying to re-invent the wheel. Attempting to convert a TPS into two separate throttle switches is a pointless endeavor, considering you can get the TB you need from about 10 million Rabbits/Golfs/Jettas/Cabbies/Foxes/Audis/etc.
      That is very good advice. Many "beginners" often make some mistakes that are repeats of what others have done and although attempts to keep people from making the same moves, advertisments, bar talk and the bigger is better brain set seems to win more often. Here are some common mistakes to try to avoid:
      > No Plan. Make one before starting to buy parts or do work.
      > Under budget. What ever you think it is going to cost, even if you checked all the prices, at 10% - 15%.
      > Lying. Don't lie to yourself or people you are seaking help from, i.e. is it really a race car or a street car?
      > Troubleshooting lies. Same as above, but if you have not physically checked something, say so, don't say it's OK.
      > Believing everything that's said. There are lots of good people and bad people, check the facts, don't just agree.
      > Don't muddy the waters. Here is an example, I mean HERE. The original post sounded interesting and the idea is good (having your own "help me do this project" posting). But the running on of questions with no logical flow just turns people away and makes it very hard to provide help. Take it a question or two at a time or lay them out in a fashion that allows others to address the ones they want to or can help with.


      So is the 88 Cabriolet the way to go? It has micro switches? It will bolt on? I can keep my CIS? This car has an ECU? Where? Can I get rid of it?
      This is a sample of what I was addressing above, but here goes. Can't say off the top of my head when the 2H motor started showing up in the Cabbies, maybe Scirocco's too? But although they are Digifant II injection systems, the parts suggested will fit and work (with a minor change). The manifold will bolt right on, no problem. The throttle body is the larger type and has the switches. It has two switches that are linked together, so you will just need to use two of the three pins in the connector (the ones for the WOT switch). Yes, you have an ECU. Not the kind many people refer to but it is a "black box" none the less (electronic control unit). I believe your's is located behind the right side kick pannel. Get rid of it? Yes, you can remove everything on the car until you have a basic rolling platform with an engine, but why? For what reason? It is there for a reason and I believe nobody should start deleteing/by-passing/modifying parts or systems untill or unless they understand their function and what effects it will have. But hey, that's just me.

      ""About the ignition distributor"" . . . guess the question is, would I get as much out of a rebuilt as I would out of this new model, even though it is for 1.7L? Would the advance curve be better suited to my car after switching the vacuum advance out? (25 bucks) Is the only other difference in the distributor the size of the windows inside the hall sender? Wouldn't I be able to bolt in a 1.8L sender to this unit that has the proper windows? Is it more than just the hall sender inside, is it a gear thing?<
      Here's that multiple run-on question thing again Forget about which distributor will be better. Any one that will fit this engine and system will be fine unless you are planning a race motor. In mechanical/vacuum models I like using one of two, PN 050 905 205 N or 050 905 205 A. They are both easy here to find, work with about any set-up (street), cheap to purchase in good condition and the parts are still sold by VW. Advance curves can be altered to suite the situation, but that is "advanced ignition" classes and not the basic stuff you should be dealing with. The vacuum canisted will only effect the off idle and cruise speed driving. They have different start and stop vacuum settings and advance amounts, but that too is more advanced tuning so just stick with one for the type of car you are driving and leave it at that for now.

      The windows are all the same size (plus or minus a fraction which is unimportant here) for all four cylinder engines. The Hall senders are the same, just newer ones have more improved Hall senders and the way it mounts inside the distributor in some is different. Different size engines, 1.6. 1.7, 1.8 can all use the same distributors, it is really the age and system which changes things. Inside the type you will be using, mechanical/vacuum, are springs and weights which determine the mechanical advance rate and limit. The vacuum advance is done with the canister mounted on the side, with an arm going inside attaching to a rotating plate. That arm pulls the Hall sender around a few degrees to advance the timing as vacuum is applied. That is why there are different distributors and vacuum canisters, vehicle weight, automatic transmission, performance intention, fuel intended, etc. But you are not that far at this point to worry to much about fine tunning the ignition advance curve.

      I am just a Dude with a dream. To restore this car.
      Make that your plan if it is really what you want to do. Stick with it and don't alter the plan or let it get out of hand. Go over the car real good and make a list of what is good and bad. Then take that list and make priorities, what has to be fixed right now, what can I live with for a while and what can wait until other stuff is fixed. Remember, there is onel 1 number one priority and when it is taken care of another becomes the new number 1 (never have more than one #1).

      Good luck and I hope I can help in the future.

    29. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 04:53 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by WaterWheels View Post
      Yes, you have an ECU. Not the kind many people refer to but it is a "black box" none the less (electronic control unit). I believe your's is located behind the right side kick pannel. Get rid of it? Yes, you can remove everything on the car until you have a basic rolling platform with an engine, but why? For what reason? It is there for a reason and I believe nobody should start deleteing/by-passing/modifying parts or systems untill or unless they understand their function and what effects it will have. But hey, that's just me.
      I did find a Lambda sensor, so I could keep it after all if need be. This is good advice. But depending in which engine stays in the car? When the GTI engine is ready, would it need Lambda? These two cars do use the exact same part numbers on the fuel distributor, and the air flow sensor. I will check the TB on the GTI.

      I also received some advice I will share.

      "As far as removing the ecu and lambda , unless you can get an old fuel dist your stuck, a good working lambda will flow more than earlier versions as far as the books are concerned , so if your set up works , use it i think the book says something like 850 cc min!"

      Not sure which book is being referred to, but I do have the KJet Manual with Lambda info, I should be able to get it working properly.
      Lambda also improves emissions and helps with fuel economy, two things I think make it worthwhile.

      When the Bentley arrives, I will begin the hardest electrical work, the melting at the fuse box, and check wire by wire to make sure the system is going to deliver energy where required. I will relay every large load and use the biggest gauge wire the application will allow. (signal/trigger wires do not have to be big).

      Alternator questions:
      I would like to know how to get a more efficient alternator into the system. Bosch sells High Output Alternators, (150-200 AMPS!) but they do not fit this car. If I could mount one, is there any reason it would not work? I have also read a smaller/better pulley will help an alt to work more efficiently, and are available.
      I can machine aluminum with Carbide router bits to build a mount. (I have lots of Carbide tools and jigs for my Wood shop).
      People say to pull the alt off an 89 VW that has the bolt on terminals. The ones in the junkyards here are JUNK. I could find a new model, I'm sure, (90 AMPS) but what part # am I looking for?
      Update:
      al33x is a 90 amp that uses same connectors as the alternator in the car.
      al27x is a 90 amp that allows you to update the size of the wire going to the starter solenoid.
      Both should fit the JH engine.
      Make sure before you buy, there were many different JH engines.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 10-10-2010 at 01:44 AM.

    30. Member kamzcab86's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 05:10 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by WaterWheels View Post
      This is a sample of what I was addressing above, but here goes. Can't say off the top of my head when the 2H motor started showing up in the Cabbies...
      The 2H Digifant motor was from 1990-1993 in the Cabriolets. 1988-1989 Cabriolets still used CIS-Lambda with JH engines.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rabbitissimo View Post
      I did find a Lambda sensor, so I could keep it after all if need be. This is good advice. But depending in which engine stays in the car? When the GTI engine is ready, would it need Lambda? These two cars do use the exact same part numbers on the fuel distributor, and the air flow sensor. I will check the TB on the GTI.
      That's because the '83-'84 GTIs use the exact same motor and fuel system as the '84-'89 Cabriolets/Rabbit 'verts.
      Cabby-Info.com -- Your online guide to the VW Cabriolets
      Old Blue's Blog -- The adventures of a 1990 Westfalia
      "Fashion is a waste of money that could be better spent on, say, maintaining your car." ~James May

    31. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 05:17 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by WaterWheels View Post
      I'd like to help where I can or maybe fill in some blanks if need be or discuss an issue.
      Hall senders:
      Inside the type you will be using, mechanical/vacuum, are springs and weights which determine the mechanical advance rate and limit. The vacuum advance is done with the canister mounted on the side, with an arm going inside attaching to a rotating plate. That arm pulls the Hall sender around a few degrees to advance the timing as vacuum is applied. That is why there are different distributors and vacuum canisters, vehicle weight, automatic transmission, performance intention, fuel intended, etc.
      Good luck and I hope I can help in the future.
      Waterwheels, Thank you.
      I am just trying to save myself a lot of frustration before I bolt on some parts that do not work.
      I found this same Distributor online last night, selling for 300 bucks Brand new.
      It was listed for Rabbits and GTI up to 84.
      Update:
      The distributor I have bought is listed in the Bentley for use in 83 and up manual except JH.
      The vacuum spark advance begins 3.0-4.7, 10-12 maximum.
      Centrifugal spark advance
      1050-1400 begins
      RPM.....Degrees advance @ crankshaft
      2200....15-20
      4000....22-26
      5000....26-30
      After I swap out the vacuum advance, It will be very close to what I need.
      I could change springs and weights to make it perform exactly as I wish.
      Not optimal, but not very far off, either. I may not even notice.
      I still cannot find the 026 905 205D that is suggested for the JH engine.
      The vacuum spark advance begins 3.5-4.7, 10-14 maximum.
      Centrifugal spark advance
      RPM.....Degrees advance @ crankshaft
      1050-1300 begins
      2600....15-19
      4500....22-26
      This is difficult information to obtain for those without the Books.
      When the Bentley arrives, I will use a voltmeter to check every part for readings, and will post them. This will identify parts that need cleaning/replacing. I have never had a hot start problem, so the fuel accumulator is probably good.
      I will get the CIS running on the Car, then do the swap knowing it works.

      I wonder why Bosch does not have the JH distributor available but the 009 for bugs are still around?
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 10-10-2010 at 02:06 AM.

    32. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 05:22 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86 View Post
      1988-1989 Cabriolets still used CIS-Lambda with JH engines.

      83-'84 GTIs use the exact same motor and fuel system as the '84-'89 Cabriolets/Rabbit 'verts.
      Cabby info was the first site I read after first buying the car, to see if it was worth building.
      I think you can see where I am going with this build.
      There are (2) 020 5 speed transmissions here to work with. I am thinking Wavetrac differential W/ARP.
      What I have been researching has been confirmed.
      The GTI will be a great source of bits and pieces.

      HOOO HA!
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-16-2010 at 03:21 AM.

    33. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 10:32 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by B4S View Post
      K.I.S.S.

      The main killer of projects is someone who thinks too much while trying to re-invent the wheel. Attempting to convert a TPS into two separate throttle switches is a pointless endeavor, considering you can get the TB you need from about 10 million Rabbits/Golfs/Jettas/Cabbies/Foxes/Audis/etc.
      Okay, so this has been bugging me. I took the Big Bore TB out and was comparing it to the one on the car. They both have the same two stage mechanism, but the BBTB secondary valve is WAY bigger, and the armature is a lot stronger. It bolts right on.
      It looks like I will be able to put one of the trigger pins onto the BBTB (where it is marked Pin), and just have to machine a holder for the micro switch. Piece of cake. On the car, the armature swings open, and when the two pink dots connect, that is WOT.

      I could thus totally bypass the TPS, Bob's your Uncle, Fanny's your Aunt, ba da bing ba da boom open wide.

      Did you see the shiny zinc coating on the BBTB armature? Mmmmmmmmm...

      I cannot find one of the suggested intake manifolds. Maybe a junkyard in the city will have something.
      If not, a stage 3 intake manifold has a re-welded plenum and ported runners. It will bolt right in without all of the plug welds required for a Fox manifold, (which I can't find) and 89 Cabriolets are nowhere to be found in my area. A junkyard search in the city is pretty much a job on foot, and I cannot just drive to the city at the moment.
      The rest of the parts are relatively easy to obtain and install. When it is time to tune, that is when it will really get exciting.
      I figure most of the gaskets and seals need replacing, (age and condition).
      All of these little air/oil leaks do have an effect on the state of tune. Maybe my intake manifold gasket is leaking, and I don't know? This stuff is pretty cheap, and I am going in anyway.
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 08-16-2010 at 03:29 AM.

    34. Member ps2375's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 10:56 PM #34
      Or, you could just drill and tap 2 holes to mount the switch in it's current holder to the other TB.
      Tradition is the art of making the same mistake repeatedly, on purpose.

    35. Member Rabbitissimo's Avatar
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      08-15-2010 11:06 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by ps2375 View Post
      Or, you could just drill and tap 2 holes to mount the switch in it's current holder to the other TB.
      Yes, just checked, there is plenty of meat on that side to drill and tap. Hardly a project killer.
      I probably made that harder than it had to be, I just needed the right picture, so we could all see properly.

      I wonder if there is a micro switch available that would look nicer? Clean it up?
      Less Van Halen, more Infected Mushroom?
      Last edited by Rabbitissimo; 09-06-2010 at 02:18 AM.

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