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    Thread: The tdi hpfp problem. Overstated? Understated?

    1. Member
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      09-17-2010 11:19 PM #1
      I was really considering also looking at a tdi, but really..there seem to be enough cases of catastrophic failure to the tune of an uncovered $7k repair bill. Clearly these people aren't all guilty of putting gas in their car...and assuming they filled up with commercial diesel, this shouldn't be happening.

      That said it's really put me off even considering a tdi tbh. It's a shame because from what I gather they have been historically quite reliable...my neighbor even has a mk iv jetta which iirc has over 200k miles.

      So all that said, do you think vag will eventually own up to a defective part, batch, etc and sort things for those affected? At least if they did that it would inspire some confidence that the issue is resolved. Denying the issue certainly doesn't imply to me it's been remedied. While it may affect a very low number of cars, it's an awfully expensive repair to gamble on. How many people have had this issue and it isn't reported (not enthusiasts, tech peole, etc). Seems like a big deal to me.
      Last edited by rockstar; 09-17-2010 at 11:21 PM.

    2. Member Code3VW's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 01:39 AM #2
      There are different 'grades' of diesel. As it says on the dash, you must fill up with ultra low sulfur diesel (ulsd) so not all diesel stations apply.

      That being said, keep records and you should be fine. There are a relatively low number of these issues versus the thousands of common rail diesels they've sold.

    3. Member MaxHedrm's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 03:20 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Code3VW View Post
      There are different 'grades' of diesel. As it says on the dash, you must fill up with ultra low sulfur diesel (ulsd) so not all diesel stations apply.

      That being said, keep records and you should be fine. There are a relatively low number of these issues versus the thousands of common rail diesels they've sold.
      ULSD is for emissions reasons, not the fuel pump. Not only that, but it has been required by law for on road vehicles for some time now, so I doubt you would find LSD anywhere in the US anymore.
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      09-18-2010 09:20 AM #4
      So the answer is to save every gas receipt.. yikes!

    5. 09-18-2010 10:55 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by rockstar View Post
      So the answer is to save every gas receipt.. yikes!
      The answer is to not take any BS from the dealership when you bring it in. Don't let them tell you that somebody put petrol in your car when you know damn well that you're the only one who puts fuel in it.

      "You cover this under the warranty like you should, or you even trade this one for a new one and never see me again."

    6. Junior Member CheesyRider's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 11:13 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by rockstar View Post
      So the answer is to save every gas receipt.. yikes!
      No, whatever you do, don't save any gas receipts.

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      09-18-2010 01:18 PM #7
      ultra low sulfur has less lubricity than low sulfar diesel so it does have some to do with the pump. its easily cured though by fueling up with B2-B5 diesel and you can also just add a quart of B100 to each fuel up to get to B2 mixture. B2 is plenty enough to increase lubricity. Also you're going to hear about the failures because thats what people do when they find forums. The failure rate isnt a true representation of whats out there. there have been posts saying that the actual failure rate is somewhere around less than 1% and those are just estimates out there.

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      09-18-2010 02:07 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by rockstar View Post
      So the answer is to save every gas receipt.. yikes!
      One of my neighbors has a '10 JSW TDI in his garage, with around 4000 miles on it, which is inoperable due to HPFP failure. When the dealer told him it would be $7-8k to fix it because his wife was a moron who filled it with the wrong fuel, he produced fuel receipts from the Shell station 1/2 mile down the street from the dealer for every tank of ulsd ever put in the car. They basically told him he should get a nice album to keep his receipts in, but that repair would not commence until he signed an acceptance of the written estimate. He flat-bedded it home and began legal action and reports to the USDOT and NHSTA.



      Quote Originally Posted by dpg View Post
      Also you're going to hear about the failures because thats what people do when they find forums. The failure rate isnt a true representation of whats out there. there have been posts saying that the actual failure rate is somewhere around less than 1% and those are just estimates out there.
      I used to believe that but if you go to the DSG forums and look at the threads on DSG/mechatronics/clutch pack failure there are a lot, but only a small fraction of those reported to government auspices.

    9. Member Code3VW's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 02:22 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by brian81 View Post
      One of my neighbors has a '10 JSW TDI in his garage, with around 4000 miles on it, which is inoperable due to HPFP failure. When the dealer told him it would be $7-8k to fix it because his wife was a moron who filled it with the wrong fuel, he produced fuel receipts from the Shell station 1/2 mile down the street from the dealer for every tank of ulsd ever put in the car. They basically told him he should get a nice album to keep his receipts in, but that repair would not commence until he signed an acceptance of the written estimate. He flat-bedded it home and began legal action and reports to the USDOT and NHSTA.
      Why, on earth, should VW pay for his "moron wife's" error?

    10. Member Code3VW's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 02:26 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by MaxHedrm View Post
      ULSD is for emissions reasons, not the fuel pump. Not only that, but it has been required by law for on road vehicles for some time now, so I doubt you would find LSD anywhere in the US anymore.
      Sorry, but it isn't December 1st yet.

      http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...pes/a/ulsd.htm
      http://www.clean-diesel.org/highway.html

      The pumps that have ULSD must state it on the pump. Be aware people!

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      09-18-2010 02:31 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by brian81 View Post
      One of my neighbors has a '10 JSW TDI in his garage, with around 4000 miles on it, which is inoperable due to HPFP failure. When the dealer told him it would be $7-8k to fix it because his wife was a moron who filled it with the wrong fuel, he produced fuel receipts from the Shell station 1/2 mile down the street from the dealer for every tank of ulsd ever put in the car. They basically told him he should get a nice album to keep his receipts in, but that repair would not commence until he signed an acceptance of the written estimate. He flat-bedded it home and began legal action and reports to the USDOT and NHSTA.
      This is the real problem with the HPFP issue, and what gives me pause as well on purchasing a TDI - VW is making it too damn hard on people with real warranty problems. There may be some real cases of water in the fuel or refueling with gasoline instead of diesel, but most of the cases I've read about are real problems by people who have used and refueled their cars in a normal fashion. The way that VW treats most of them is reminiscent of their 1.8T coil pack response - abominable.
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      09-18-2010 02:32 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Code3VW View Post
      Why, on earth, should VW pay for his "moron wife's" error?
      Your reading comprehension stinks, or I'm missing your sarcasm. The dealer who said that was full of bovine excrement.
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    13. Member Code3VW's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 02:35 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by B4A3WhatNext View Post
      Your reading comprehension stinks, or I'm missing your sarcasm. The dealer who said that was full of bovine excrement.
      His story telling sucks.

      Did his wife fill it up with incorrect fuel?

      If he had been filling up the car with fuel from the same gas station, he should have gone after the station for redress.

      Did the pump state "Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel?"

      I find it hard to believe that the dealership called his wife a moron...
      Last edited by Code3VW; 09-18-2010 at 02:47 PM.

    14. Member RogueTDI's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 04:49 PM #14
      1) I'd like to know what legal grounds VW has for trying to stick owners with a 1/3 the new vehicle cost in repair bills on a brand new vehicle. I would assume that Magnuson Moss would require VW to prove that gasoline was run through the fuel system, to deny the owner warranty coverage.

      2) This is a subsystem absolutely critical to the engine, and on that alone I should think it preposterous to deny coverage, especially given the repair bills.

      3) If this is a frequent occurrence (which I dont believe - it's probably far less than 1% of TDIs), and VW had clout in their refusal to honor the warranty, I would think a class action law suit would already be in existence.

      In the rare instance you do end up with a failed pump, you are a fool to just pony up $5000+ for repairs on a brand new car. Go to small claims, do what is necessary, but dont let VW get away with this.

      Additionally, no diesel fuel will cause lubricity failures. ULSD should and I believe does already have lubricity improvers in it, and anything with higher sulfur wont hurt the pump, just emissions equipment. Only gasoline could cause the problem.

    15. Member silverA4quattro's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 05:28 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Code3VW View Post
      His story telling sucks.

      Did his wife fill it up with incorrect fuel?



      I find it hard to believe that the dealership called his wife a moron...
      I understood him perfectly.

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      09-18-2010 07:02 PM #16
      If one actually drove the new diesel engine on gas. The HPFP will be least of your concern. The engine detonating is a bigger concern.

      The need TDI has not had all the bugs fixed yet.
      Last edited by Boosted2003!; 09-18-2010 at 07:06 PM.

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      09-18-2010 07:38 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Boosted2003! View Post
      If one actually drove the new diesel engine on gas. The HPFP will be least of your concern. The engine detonating is a bigger concern.

      The need TDI has not had all the bugs fixed yet.
      lolwut?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Outie5000 View Post
      And lets be honest, owning a diesel car is nifty.

    18. Member MaxHedrm's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 08:03 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by dpg View Post
      ultra low sulfur has less lubricity than low sulfar diesel so it does have some to do with the pump. its easily cured though by fueling up with B2-B5 diesel and you can also just add a quart of B100 to each fuel up to get to B2 mixture. B2 is plenty enough to increase lubricity. Also you're going to hear about the failures because thats what people do when they find forums. The failure rate isnt a true representation of whats out there. there have been posts saying that the actual failure rate is somewhere around less than 1% and those are just estimates out there.
      As I said, using ULSD as directed by VW should have zero impact on pump performance. And since the pump was (or at least should have been) designed for the lower lubricity of ULSD compared to LSD, LSD should not hurt the pump. What it will hurt is the emissions system.


      Quote Originally Posted by Code3VW View Post
      Sorry, but it isn't December 1st yet.

      http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...pes/a/ulsd.htm
      http://www.clean-diesel.org/highway.html

      The pumps that have ULSD must state it on the pump. Be aware people!
      True, but looking at the second link, there hasn't been any LSD allowed to be imported/produced for highway use since June and it is mandated to be 100% at the terminals by Oct 1. I think you would have to look pretty hard to find LSD anywhere, since 80% of the diesel produced/imported has been ULSD since June 2006.

      Not only that, but ULSD is for emissions. LSD should have no impact on the fuel pump.
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    19. Member G60ING's Avatar
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      09-18-2010 10:08 PM #19
      Car payments suck and repair payments to the dealer are even worse. I won't put myself in a position of doing both. Just say no to new TDIs until VW/audi figures this out.

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      09-19-2010 01:31 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by CheesyRider View Post
      No, whatever you do, don't save any gas receipts.
      LOL, you know what I meant.. Fuel!

      Quote Originally Posted by G60ING View Post
      Car payments suck and repair payments to the dealer are even worse. I won't put myself in a position of doing both. Just say no to new TDIs until VW/audi figures this out.
      That's basically my thought. Even at

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      09-19-2010 02:06 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by dhambrick View Post
      lolwut?
      Gasoline will have a good possibility of making a diesel motor detonate causing major internal issues.


      TDI motors have bugs like the FSI engine did. They weren't worked out before production. Only thing is they cost a lot more to fix.

    22. Member toasters's Avatar
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      09-19-2010 03:22 AM #22
      I was actually considering starting a thread like this today...glad I found this one.

      I was at the dealer today talking to the service manager about this issue and what I can do to protect myself from it.

      He said that in the past 2 years, they've had 2 cases of HPFP failure...this dealer sells around 20-30 TDI's per month.

      1st case: 2009 Jetta TDI. Had to fight with VW to get it covered under warranty.

      2nd case: 2009 Jetta TDI. VW authorized full fuel system replacement...no questions asked.

      Find a dealer that is willing to fight for you....one that will be on your side if HPFP failure occurs. I feel semi-confident that my dealer is on my side. This makes me slightly more comfortable with my 2011 TDI purchase.

      Has anyone on this forum even had HPFP failure?

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      09-19-2010 03:37 AM #23
      A fellow over on tdiclub has a list of about 30 hpfp failures from their forum members.
      Currently just a GTI/TDI wannabe.

    24. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      09-19-2010 07:11 AM #24
      I am not worried.

      1. There seem to be very, very few cases. AFAIK, none have been reported here. Many dealers/service places have never heard about this/ have never seen a case. There are 600 dealers in the US, and about 80,000 CR TDIs have been sold, so far. Say, there were 400 cases (I doubt it) - that would make 0.5%. Compare that to your chance of a Honda V6 transmission failing a few years ago (about 50+%), or your Subaru head gasket blowing at or before 100,000 miles (close to 100%, a few years ago).

      2. Most cases were reported early on - when fuel was still transitioning and may have been bad in some locations. There are very few - if any - recent cases.

      3. The idea that VW would just not cover this or that someone would have to personally pay for this is just ridiculous and IMO typical anti-VW fear-mongering. Of course it can happen if you have huge amount of water or gasoline in the fuel - but if that was not your fault, your insurance will cover it. And they will go after the fueling station.

      People need to gain some perspective, here.

    25. Member Pelican18TQA4's Avatar
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      09-19-2010 10:35 AM #25
      This problem is way overstated because of the potential costs associated with HPFP failure. Basically, the entire fuel system needs to be replaced because a destroyed HPFP will leave metal shards everywhere in the fuel system, including the injectors. That being said, VW has sold well over 60,000 TDIs since it was re-introduced in late '08 for the '09 model year and there have been literally a small handful of reported problems and out of those reported problems, not all of them have been attributed to actual failure of the HPFP due to mechanical and/or manufacturing defect. In addition, if you mosey on over to tdiclub.com, you'll find out that (to the best of my knowledge) no one has had to pay out of pocket for the associated repairs. I think there is one case where the owner had the insurance company pay, but I believe they are in the process of VW reimbursing them or something similar. The point being, again, this problem has been grossly overstated because of the potential financial impact of failure. Finally, if VW says that bad fuel caused the failure, the burden of proof is on VW, not the owner. VW has to prove that bad fuel caused the failure in order to deny warranty repair. And no need to get a $$$ lawyer involved, just educate yourself about the law if you find yourself in this type of situation and respond to the dealer's allegations accordingly.

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