TFSI Head Build and Rods

[GolfRS]

OH **** !!!!

I just found THIS....

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...56k-warning%29

****ting my pants now....

[chris@revotechnik]

OH **** !!!!

I just found THIS....

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...56k-warning%29

****ting my pants now....

It is light but that car is showing signs of sludge build up.

[GolfRS]

Well at least he "found" something.

I still have no clue what caused my head to fail

[Arin@APR]

OH **** !!!!

I just found THIS....

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...56k-warning%29

****ting my pants now....

I've seen something similar before.

[JC@DouglasVW]

OH **** !!!!

I just found THIS....

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...56k-warning%29

****ting my pants now....

I have seen this happen before also in our own shop, we had a car come in that need a camshaft we took the cam out and saw this and had to replace the cylinder head. Now the one you posted looks like it could have failed for 2 reasons (1) like chris said above the oil looks like the engine was not well maintained or (2) the cylinder head had green compression sealant on it in the pictures which means it already received a camshaft because the original sealer was a maroon color..someone prob did not torque the cam cap bolts down properly or did not replace them and when they thought they retorqued correctly they did not stretch as designed.

[GolfRS]

I'm really curious...

How exactly does an oil pump "fail" (in the TFSI for example)

Isn't it just a set of gears that are rotating driven by a chain ?

Does sludge for example lock up the gears ?Do gear teeth get grinded down progressively to the point
the pump stop spinning ?

Cause from a quick glance what i could see was that my gears were better than new, and there was ZERO sludge in the oil pan.Even my bearings looked like the just came out of the factory...

Can i "repair" a pump if it is not actually worn down ??

[INA]

Isn't it just a set of gears that are rotating driven by a chain ??

For the most part essentially this is what it is.
We have over 50 "used" 1.8T oil pump's pulled from motors with slush issues etc etc and every single one of them just needed either to be cleaned up or simply "degunked".

....just change your oil more regularly.

[GolfRS]

For the most part essentially this is what it is.
We have over 50 "used" 1.8T oil pump's pulled from motors with slush issues etc etc and every single one of them just needed either to be cleaned up or simply "degunked".

....just change your oil more regularly.

I highly doubt it's a sludge issue, from what i have seen from all the moving parts in the engine.

I will test the mobility of the pump though, and if it's just a good cleaning it needs, all the better.

What i am most afraid of is that i won't find anything wrong and will have to close the engine...undiagnosed...

[chris@revotechnik]

I highly doubt it's a sludge issue, from what i have seen from all the moving parts in the engine.

I will test the mobility of the pump though, and if it's just a good cleaning it needs, all the better.

What i am most afraid of is that i won't find anything wrong and will have to close the engine...undiagnosed...

It isn't a matter of the pump moving or not if the pump stopped moving you'd end up breaking the chain or gears and other parts. The sludge simply stops the flow of oil and needs to be cleaned to allow it to flow.

[GolfRS]

It isn't a matter of the pump moving or not if the pump stopped moving you'd end up breaking the chain or gears and other parts. The sludge simply stops the flow of oil and needs to be cleaned to allow it to flow.

Ohhhh..ok now i get it...

But still Chris, should there be a CEL registered for low pressure or at least SOMETHING !!

I mean the car dies and all is well in ECUland...

F**k these cars...

[GolfRS]

Here's a small update..

Engine is all bolt up and ready to start up on Monday.

Still NOTHING in the way of what exactly caused the head failure...
How is that even possible....I don't know.Maybe it just committed suicide..

Anyways, one other thing of concern is the fact the tech asked me if i should be using a
strengthened timing belt, since the Ferrea springs were TWICE as thick as the OEM ones, and
seriously this is a never before addressed factor that i don't see any of the Ferrea resellers
addressing...yet.Is the OEM belt actually strong enough to handle the increased spring forces ??
Is there even an aftermarket timing belt ??

[jhines_06gli]

Here's a small update..

Engine is all bolt up and ready to start up on Monday.

Still NOTHING in the way of what exactly caused the head failure...
How is that even possible....I don't know.Maybe it just committed suicide..

Anyways, one other thing of concern is the fact the tech asked me if i should be using a
strengthened timing belt, since the Ferrea springs were TWICE as thick as the OEM ones, and
seriously this is a never before addressed factor that i don't see any of the Ferrea resellers
addressing...yet.Is the OEM belt actually strong enough to handle the increased spring forces ??
Is there even an aftermarket timing belt ??

The FSI belts are like the P-D Diesel belts.....pretty solid! Kevlar enforced and overall 300% better than the previous gas engine belts!!! I'd say you have nothing to worry about, but then again.....you are driving a modified VW. You have EVERYTHING to worry about!!!
-J. Hines

[rracerguy717]

I'd say you have nothing to worry about, but then again.....you are driving a modified VW. You have EVERYTHING to worry about!!!
-J. Hines

Thats signature material Thanks

[GolfRS]

OK !!

Here's an update.

The car is really and started up nicely !!

Oil pressure was checked and was spot on, still, no reason for the engine to have failed...

Now in the process of breaking in the new rings/bearings, and not really pushing the car, but it seems much more eager to go, and part throttle response is also that much better.

Hopefully this will be the end of this misfortune, and depending on my new K04 results i can even
consider going to a GT turbo some time.

P.S.Welcome to break-in procedure suggestions.

P.S. 2 UNFORTUNATELY the misfire i had for more than 2 years is STILL THERE.. , making me think it's rather a side effect of the cams/SMFW/MAF than an actual mechanical misfire...

[jhines_06gli]

Thats signature material Thanks

Glad I could help....lol.

AS for your misfire, just out of curiousity, have you switched your program back to stock? And what K04 file and injectors are you running? Cylinder #2 is THE misfire fault that 95% of the FSI market get. Couldn't tell you how many of the FSIs that roll into the dealer here have cyl. #2!! Usually in our cases, the cars are fairly stock and it's gunk on valves and injector spray patterns being off. But there are also those that have weird PCV issues that pick on just cylinder #2 or #3 usually. I am somewhat familiar with your setup from being involved in some diag. through the past years, just curious again. I have the latest REVO STG III file for the K04 and I still get the cyl. #2 misfire under 60% throttle or higher. I too have done EVERYTHING to try and correct it and cannot. I have ahd it ever since I went STG II+ several years back. But never gets the misfire counter high enough to store a fault, I just catch it in logging. Also, no excess timing pull from #2, it's like the ECM knows it's misfiring and doesn't care...lol. "Way of life for it I guess".
-J. Hines


Keep us updated, curious to see if you ever find anything as I stopped trying and just drive my GLI hoping to get month-to-month with a minimal repair bill........clutch soon I guess(134K on OEM with K04.....still not slipping, but SB STG II+ is sooner than later)

[GolfRS]

Glad I could help....lol.

AS for your misfire, just out of curiousity, have you switched your program back to stock? And what K04 file and injectors are you running? Cylinder #2 is THE misfire fault that 95% of the FSI market get. Couldn't tell you how many of the FSIs that roll into the dealer here have cyl. #2!! Usually in our cases, the cars are fairly stock and it's gunk on valves and injector spray patterns being off. But there are also those that have weird PCV issues that pick on just cylinder #2 or #3 usually. I am somewhat familiar with your setup from being involved in some diag. through the past years, just curious again. I have the latest REVO STG III file for the K04 and I still get the cyl. #2 misfire under 60% throttle or higher. I too have done EVERYTHING to try and correct it and cannot. I have ahd it ever since I went STG II+ several years back. But never gets the misfire counter high enough to store a fault, I just catch it in logging. Also, no excess timing pull from #2, it's like the ECM knows it's misfiring and doesn't care...lol. "Way of life for it I guess".
-J. Hines


Keep us updated, curious to see if you ever find anything as I stopped trying and just drive my GLI hoping to get month-to-month with a minimal repair bill........clutch soon I guess(134K on OEM with K04.....still not slipping, but SB STG II+ is sooner than later)

I have ZERO misfires under load.Only at idle, and even though i've done proper leakage tests, my idle keeps dropping at traffic lights when rpms fall from 4000+

It may be the S3 spray pattern on my crown pistons though.Maybe its the reverse and RS4's work better on mine...Dunno man...

[JC@DouglasVW]

Did you ever install new exhaust lifters as per the tsb? the tsb says it happens on cold start but we have had it fix other cars that have misfired at idle while warm too.

[GolfRS]

Did you ever install new exhaust lifters as per the tsb? the tsb says it happens on cold start but we have had it fix other cars that have misfired at idle while warm too.

Well i didn't...

I though about it, but since mine were checked by the machine shop (can you even check them ?)
they didn't suggest i change them.

Mine seems to do it cold or warm, and strangely enough, it does it more on an incline surface, and when i turn the steering wheel ?? I know...WTF !!!

[JC@DouglasVW]

i don't think they can really check a sticky lifter, all they can see is if it moves when compressed but you can't check how it acts inside the engine.

[GolfRS]

i don't think they can really check a sticky lifter, all they can see is if it moves when compressed but you can't check how it acts inside the engine.

Yeah...

Its really sporadic though, and i've also seen it decrease in frequency when using the stock maf intake.

It also goes away when i rev the engine from 760 (stock) to like 800 and keep it there.

Almost like the engine is running too rich at idle...

[jhines_06gli]

i don't think they can really check a sticky lifter, all they can see is if it moves when compressed but you can't check how it acts inside the engine.

The issues with the lifters are the size of the oil squirters. This was a HUGE issue in the Japanese market with turbo Eclipses....been there MANY times with them. The oil pressure cannot get through the lifter quick enough to keep the valves closing at a quick enough rate. But as for your issue.....doubt if that's it as the lifter recall was just for on cold-starts and was very few and far between with the lifters actually 100% solving the issue. You can change them without removing the exhaust cam/timing belt and all....not too hard. But I'd look more into a fueling issue as you say. I know the S3 injectors mimic the OEM pattern, so seeing as how the OEM pistons are flat, you may be spraying onto the dome and killing the "Swirl" effect of the combustion chamber. Just a theory though. Then again, you have port-work and all done as well.....so a combination of the pistons, injector spray, intake track design and cam duration may be creating some sort of weird issue.

At any rate, I'd monitor your values off idle and look for anything abnormal once you get the engine broken in. Misfires at idle constantly will definitely break down components over a long period of time, but cannot see them causing the engine to self-destruct. Interesting issue though.....don't see too many that have a consistent misfire at idle, we all have issues with high RPM and W.O.T. as well as decel off a pull, but haven't seen too much with idle. Especially when the PCV system is modified correctly and everything is clean.
-J. Hines

[JC@DouglasVW]

how are you changing them with out removing the camshaft?

[GolfRS]

The issues with the lifters are the size of the oil squirters. This was a HUGE issue in the Japanese market with turbo Eclipses....been there MANY times with them. The oil pressure cannot get through the lifter quick enough to keep the valves closing at a quick enough rate. But as for your issue.....doubt if that's it as the lifter recall was just for on cold-starts and was very few and far between with the lifters actually 100% solving the issue. You can change them without removing the exhaust cam/timing belt and all....not too hard. But I'd look more into a fueling issue as you say. I know the S3 injectors mimic the OEM pattern, so seeing as how the OEM pistons are flat, you may be spraying onto the dome and killing the "Swirl" effect of the combustion chamber. Just a theory though. Then again, you have port-work and all done as well.....so a combination of the pistons, injector spray, intake track design and cam duration may be creating some sort of weird issue.

At any rate, I'd monitor your values off idle and look for anything abnormal once you get the engine broken in. Misfires at idle constantly will definitely break down components over a long period of time, but cannot see them causing the engine to self-destruct. Interesting issue though.....don't see too many that have a consistent misfire at idle, we all have issues with high RPM and W.O.T. as well as decel off a pull, but haven't seen too much with idle. Especially when the PCV system is modified correctly and everything is clean.
-J. Hines

Actually my idle has improved after the head work, just not completely gone.
I started having these issues right after the S3 injector install, and all the way though the S3 cam install/P&P etc etc.Lately though just before the failure the matter was getting REALLY worse...

S3 injector patern is SUPPOSEDLY the same as the normal injector pattern, so to dunno if that is the factor.There was a thread in the Vortex (was it crew) by someone saying how the RS4 pistons are the same crown pistons i have, and there is also APR's little secret about piston differences and spray patterns i am still dying to know...but no one will talk....

[TASOS]

.......someone saying how the RS4 pistons are the same crown pistons i have, and there is also APR's little secret about piston differences and spray patterns i am still dying to know...but no one will talk....

Well ... since i also have an AXX ... i want that piece of info too

But consider the fact that , the APR person swapped his "double crown" AXX like pistons from his setup.

I assume that AXX pistons and RS4 inj. are not the best combo.

Anyway
Drive safe

I envy your super shiny carbon built free cylinder head

[GolfRS]

Well ... since i also have an AXX ... i want that piece of info too

But consider the fact that , the APR person swapped his "double crown" AXX like pistons from his setup.

I assume that AXX pistons and RS4 inj. are not the best combo.

Anyway
Drive safe

I envy your super shiny carbon built free cylinder head

Actually that was a "forced" change of pistons since the newer BPY engines used the dome pistons.

But as i said APR isn't sharing....

As for the head, you should see how the car drives now....

[crew219]

S3 injector patern is SUPPOSEDLY the same as the normal injector pattern, so to dunno if that is the factor.There was a thread in the Vortex (was it crew) by someone saying how the RS4 pistons are the same crown pistons i have, and there is also APR's little secret about piston differences and spray patterns i am still dying to know...but no one will talk....

Yep.

[GolfRS]

Yep.

I remembered you posting an actual live image but this will do fine.

So it seems the pistons look 95% identical (with minor design differences) BUT...here's is the
puzzle.......

How is it possible the AXX have the "normal" injectors with the same pattern as the S3 injectors, when the RS4's have a different injector pattern ??

And once again, what was APR's experience with the crown pistons and different injectors ?

If my misfires are "spray related", and the RS4 injectors would be more compatible than my current S3's, then WHY did my car come with "A" version injectors like BPY's and BWA's ?

Or are we possibly taking all this "spray pattern" talk too seriously ?

[jhines_06gli]

how are you changing them with out removing the camshaft?

Little trick I learned. I work on flat rate.....so "Time is money!" Just like my trick to doing the camshaft replacements and TONS of other part replacements on these cars. I have to find ways to make more money to feed my addiction to buying/modding VWs!!!
-J. Hines

[chris@revotechnik]

When I popped a rocker out on my I got it back in without taking the cams out.. Not entirely easy but certainly less time than pulling the cams out

[Arin@APR]

GolfRS

What color markings are on your OEM valve springs?

-Arin

[GolfRS]

GolfRS

What color markings are on your OEM valve springs?

-Arin

Hmmm dunno, but i can check ??

All i know for now is that they are the first TFSI springs which afaik were longer and
taking more punishment than the newer S3/Cupra springs.

Why do you ask ?

[Arin@APR]

Why do you ask ?

I was curious what color was in the AXX because I just don't remember. Also, as you probably know, with some of the uprated k04 motors there was a TSB for incorrect valve springs causing misfires at idle.

[GolfRS]

I was curious what color was in the AXX because I just don't remember. Also, as you probably know, with some of the uprated k04 motors there was a TSB for incorrect valve springs causing misfires at idle.

Isn't that exactly what i just wrote above you ? (although misfires at those models where seen at high rpm's not idle)

But no, it was/is not my springs, since now i have a complete Ferrea head and still misfiring...

Edit:Having reread my post, i didn't quite pinpoint the issue, but yeah that's what i meant.

[TASOS]

But as i said APR isn't sharing....

Ohh ... i didnt know that !!!

Well , they are a tuning company , they make money from their tunes and findings , i cant blame them for not sharing that info , they worked for it.

But you never know ... since we are amateurs and tuning is a hobby for us , maybe somebody (sometime) will send us a bonus pm.

[viotfsi]

I was curious what color was in the AXX because I just don't remember. Also, as you probably know, with some of the uprated k04 motors there was a TSB for incorrect valve springs causing misfires at idle.

The TSB mentioned missfiring at high rpm's (>6000rpm) with 80% of these at 3rd cylinder

@GolfRS: Good luck with your project. I wish all the best

Are you experiencing the "too rich at idle" fault? What's the o2 sensor responce with those missfires?