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    Thread: REFERENCE: 1.8t Water / Methanol (Meth) Injection FAQ

    1. Moderator groggory's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 21st, 2003
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      Long Beach, CA
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      2002 VW GTI 1.8 BT
      10-22-2010 10:39 AM #1
      I try to keep up with the happenings on this forum and I see a lot of questions come up on water meth injection. There is a lot of half knowledge being pushed around, some misconceptions, and just some issues. So I'm going to do another in-depth thread to go over everything.

      I'll be filling this in over the next few days or so as I pull all my info together.

      -Greg


      Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection... Cliff Note questions have been added at Post #175.... Please read those if you don't want to sit through all this. But if you just read the C/N then whats the point anyway. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...=937176&page=7 Bottom of the page.

      What is Water/Methanol Injection?

      Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns.

      How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?

      The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely.

      What is Methanol?

      Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.

      Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.

      Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.

      Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.

      In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.

      Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen.

      Can you run just water injection without methanol?

      Yes, you can run straight water. The common misconception is that without the methanol you will gain only lower intake temperatures but lose all of your effective higher octane (which in turn is knock prevention).

      What the real story is is that tuning with a ~50/50 mix water alcohol makes tuning the car much easier. Tuning pure water is a trickier process. Pure water is commonly sprayed in Rally cars with excellent success. However, they have very skilled tuners and larger budgets than most of us.

      In a nutshell:

      -Water sprayed early porvides the best IAT heat exchange(chemical cooling) as long as you get good vaporization.

      -Late water injection(direct injection or post TB injection) provide amazing in-cylinder cooling as well as detonation resistance.

      - Leaner mixture is important(leaner than a typical water/meth mix is required)

      - A strong ignition is also required because the highr water content has a tendency to slow down flame propagation and also quench the ignition.

      Here is a personal testament to running pure water...
      Quote Originally Posted by madmax199
      Take a look at what rally cars are able to achieve with water only injection. They run upward of 40 psi of boost safely with timing right at MBT for extented period of time.
      I know some would say that the above analogy would not transfer to real life, let alone our 1.8t. I ran 30 psi of boost on the stock K04 with a water only setup and serious timing. the car made great power safely for almost a year that way(I later converted to E85 but still retained the water injection). Yes I hat to adopt a different tuning philosophy, yes I had to run multiple staggered and extra small nozzles(required for full water vaporization) but it worked great and I had no knock at 30 psi on hot summer days pushing the 1.8t at the track.
      What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?

      At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had.

      Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?

      There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:

      These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
      www.aquamist.co.uk
      http://www.snowperformance.net/
      www.coolingmist.com
      www.alcohol-injection.com
      www.enginerunup.com
      www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
      www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
      Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:
      http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
      Who is the best manufacture to go with?

      That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
      Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one?
      Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
      Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.

      How do I know how big a nozzle to run?

      There are calculators linked below, but here is a rule for choosing injector size, as promoted by user velocity196
      Use 1cc nozzle size per total HP output. If you're looking for 400whp use either a single 380cc injector, or 2 x 180cc, or a 250cc and a 180cc injector, ect.
      Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this
      Calculator

      Another injection calculator
      http://=http://www.alcohol-injection...read.php?t=351

      Calculating how much methanol to inject[*]Converting flow (GPH to CC/M, etc)

      It is at the bottom of the page...

      Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
      http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php

      How can I mix my own Water/Meth
      it works out to be a 1.3 : 1 (meth:water by volume) for a true 50/50 mix.

      A 1:1 (again by volume) mix yields around a 56% water to 44% meth.

      It all really depends on what you are injecting meth mainly for, latent heat removal or knock suppression.

      methyl alcohol = 0.791g/cc
      water = 1.0g/cc

      using measuring cup - 1000cc basis:

      750ccMeOH + 250ccH2O = 1000cc
      750/1000 = 75 v/v% methanol in the methanol/water mix

      density = mass/volume

      0.791 = mass/750
      mass = 593.25gms methanol in the above 75 v/v% methanol/water mix

      593.25gms methanol + 250gms water (water = 1.0gm/cc) = 843.25gms

      593.25/843.25 = 70 w/w% methanol

      therefore, 75 volume percent methanol in water = 70 weight percent methanol in water

      Where can I get methanol?
      One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.

      What kind of fluids you can inject

      Other sources:

      http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_f...C855#specialty

      This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA

      http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=121500

      You can buy on-line from these guys:
      LINK
      www.pricechemical.com/order/
      www.powermist.com/distrib.html
      www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html

      Those are just some.

      Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?

      Yes, here are a few:

      Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
      www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
      www.waterinjectionforum.com
      www.waterinjection.info
      http://snowperformance.net/forum/
      www.alcohol-injection.com/forum

      How do I know what mixture to inject?

      THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water

      Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.

      Great link to the heat capacity of various concentrations of fuel/meth/water

      Here is a freeze table for methanol also:

      http://162.128.70.44:8080/cs.html?ch...=1&la=en<br />

      Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.

      Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:

      http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html

      Here is a great how to page:

      http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

      Can you build your own kit, and how?

      You need some basics to build your own system.

      You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.

      You need nozzles

      You need tubing

      You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.

      Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers

      http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...UseBVCookie=no
      http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...l.ex?sku=68424
      www.mcmaster.com/

      And here is a great how to page on building your own...
      http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

      Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?

      As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.

      If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.

      Can I run without a external intercooler?

      Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.

      What gains can be made from water/meth injection?

      This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree.

      Is Methanol Flammable?
      Yes, it's flammable. The flammability depends on what ratio meth/water you run though.
      Flammability Thread

      Quote Originally Posted by Badger5
      The question got asked on ASN forum so I did some tests which may be of interest to folks:

      okies...
      did the tests
      video's also... (excuse shakey hands)

      Tests done.. % mix water/meth changed, and ign source flammability test, with combustable (paper) to show actual flame, as meth burns without a colour.. invisible...

      100%, 50%, 40%, 30% meth tested

      100% Meth - Flammable (no sh1t sherlock)
      http://youtu.be/iU7fwBA3WR0

      50% Meth - Flammable
      http://youtu.be/Z0OYmmKNmbg

      40% Meth - Flammable
      http://youtu.be/V9T_i96gQ4c

      30% Meth - Not Flammable
      http://youtu.be/U_0BLv54aeI

      and what it looks like in indy racing... when on fire... (poor b@stards)
      http://youtu.be/uvK1AicyGGw
      Other NASIOC threads concerning water/meth injection:

      Aquamist (Water injection) questions and answers
      Call us believers (alky injection)!
      Solo2 and Alchy Injection?
      which alky injection system
      New Water Injection Dyno Results
      Pre-turbo WI
      Water Vs. Alky VS. Meth...

      • Tips & Tricks - Many thanks to DMVDUB
      • Ethanol makes a great replacement for Methanol when you're making your own mix. I've been buying the Ethanol from HD or Lowes for a while and at ~$10usGal you can't beat the price. (or if you live in an area where moonshine is prevalent, Free jugs of runoff work great!)
      • Not everyone has the same optimal mix.
        Mine is certainly not 50/50 it's more in the neighborhood of 70/30 CH3OH or C2H3OH / H20 in the summer months and I'm running almost pure H20 now in the winter. (with just H20 I've added 3.75* timing with no pull, but with any other mix I can't go over a degree or 2 (maybe) without it being pulled.
        So try different mixes until you find the right one for you.
      • Also H2O2 is a fun idea... Just make sure you have the fuel to back it up
      • DO NOT USE HOBBY NITRO! It will gunk up the tubes and gunk up the Low level sensor. It is full of oils that also clog the screen on the nozzle. Don't use it unless you're prepared to clean the whole system after, and it's not really worth it.
      • Alcohol can do wonders for fixing a lean situation (I would only do it temporarily). Before I picked up the 4bar FPR I was running lean once in a while (so it said) and the add / multi trims were adding around 7-12%, which is no good. With PURE ethanol on the bottle I got them under the curve to -1to-3%
      • Don't assume you will be able to up your timing by 7* or something of that nature... you probably won't. Do a test / Log and up the timing a little at a time, and check fuel while you're doing that. Give it a good 20mi+ to really adapt before going further with adding more timing / removing fuel.
      • Don't think you're buying a nitrous kit made of water and alcohol...IT IS NOT. You can gain some power in certain situations. But more than anything you're really just adding extra protection to the engine. (so you can run NO2 ). If you don't have a FMIC , bigger SMIC or AWIC, you will probably see a decent gain. If your IAT's are already low your only going to get so much benefit from the cooling. Gains from cooling don't seem infinite, they do seem to level off when you're down in the single digit C's . (at least in my case this is true)


      Octane info and such...UPDATED

      http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol
      http://www.csgnetwork.com/octaneratecalc.html
      Last edited by groggory; 08-09-2012 at 06:01 PM.

    2. Moderator groggory's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 21st, 2003
      Location
      Long Beach, CA
      Posts
      12,267
      Vehicles
      2002 VW GTI 1.8 BT
      10-22-2010 10:40 AM #2
      Manufacturers:

      Active
      Location: Active Autowerke Miami, Florida, USA.
      Capabilities: Adjustable manifold pressure activation
      Pump: Shurflo
      Electronic Controller option:: not mentioned on site
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Alcohol
      Failsafe: not mentioned on site
      Price range: US$750.00
      Warranty: Not mentioned on site
      URL: http://activeautowerke.com/cooling/main.php
      EMAIL: aatuning@activeautowerke.com

      AEM
      Location: 2205 126th Street, Unit A Hawthorne Ca. 90250
      Capabilities: Mainfold pressure activated
      Pump: Shurflo
      Electronic Controller option:: Onboard MAP sensor Pump speed controller
      Chemical compatibility: Water, 50% Alcohol (recommened)
      Failsafe:: water level sensor and power supply failure
      Price range: US$390.00 - $570.00
      Warranty: 12 months
      URL: http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory...CategoryID=120
      EMAIL: emstech@aempower.com

      Alkycontrol
      Location: Alkycontrol. USA.
      Capabilities: Progressive delivery proportional to MAP sensor. Inline filter, metal fittings, and stainless steel braided lines.
      Pump: Shurflo
      Electronic Controller::Based on PAC module controlling pump speed to vary pressure
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Alcohol
      Failsafe: Failsafe Bi-colored LED works of pressure sensing, inline filter, metal fittings, and stainless steel braided lines.
      Price range: US$425-495
      Warranty: 1 year unconditional and 100% methanol URL: http://www.alkycontrol.com/
      EMAIL: Online form or phone

      Aquamist
      Location: ERL Ltd, Sussex, England.
      Capabilities: Static flow, mappable, fuel injection duty cycle tracking, ECU interface and map switching
      Pump: Own design - magnetic piston type and 150W/160psi by-pass Aquatec pump
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol. 100% methanol and 10 to 20% nitromethane withteflon seals: supply on request
      Failsafe: Dash Flowmeter or fulltime monitoring via signal error comparator circuitry, boost control and map switching output.
      Price range: US$585.00-3000.00+
      Warranty: 12 months
      URL: www.aquamist.co.uk
      EMAIL: info@.aquamist.co.uk (sales enquiry), richard@aquamist.co.uk (technical)

      Aquastealth
      Location: USA.
      Capabilities: Static flow, Pressure switch activated inline solenoid.
      Pump: Shurflo
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol, isopropyl and ethanol.
      Failsafe: unspecified
      Price range: US$239.00
      Warranty: Not mentioned on site
      URL: www.aquastealth.com
      EMAIL: sales@aquastealth.com

      Coolingmist
      Location: Atlanta (Norcross), Georgia, USA.
      Capabilities: Progressive, Static flow – single or dual stage
      Electronic Controller: Digital 52 MM "all in one" boost guage, failsafe, progressive controller and flow gauge. Injection based on boost, MAF or boost and MAF.
      Chemical compatibility: Water, 100% Methanol safe (EPDM Seals)
      Failsafe: CMGS progressive controller has built in flow based failsafe. Detect low flow, high flow, out of fluid/hardware failure and flowing when should not be. Normally close or normally open output.
      Price range: US$249.95 to $625
      Warranty: 1 Year Warranty
      URL: www.coolingmist.com
      EMAIL: info@coolingmist.com[/quote]
      Review of Stage 1 Kit by bootymac

      Devilsown
      Location: Oklahoma City, Ok USA. NEW
      Capabilities: Static flow, PWM pump speed control option
      Electronic controller option: 0-5v (selectable scales 2 bar,3 bar,voltage) – pump speed control . Price US$125.00
      Pump: Custom Shurflo
      Chemical compatibility: Water, 100% Methanol safe (EPDM Seals)
      Failsafe: over-current sensing
      Price range: US$205.00-305.00 + MAP sensor
      Warranty: One Year Limited
      www.alcohol-injection.com
      EMAIL: sales@.alcohol-injection.com (sales inquiry), support@alcohol-injection.com (technical)

      Hydramist by Element Tuning (Work with Hydra EMS only)
      Location: WA, USA.
      Capabilities: Full 3D hi-res mappable, inbuilt failsafe.
      Electronic controller: Element Hydra stand-alone EMS.
      Pump: Shurflo (150W), with 125psi internal by-pass
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol, Ethanol, Iso-propyl
      Failsafe: DDS3 flow sensing system - auto map switching via DDS3 v7.
      Price range: US$799.00 not including Hydra EMS
      Warranty: Not yet specified
      EMAIL: phil@elementtuning.com
      URL: www.elementtuning.com

      Gaseous Intercooling TM
      Location: Blowerworks. New Jersey, USA.
      Capabilities: Static flow and two stage
      Pump: Flojet
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol.
      Failsafe: Flow switch
      Price range: $395.00-540.00 basic to Standard Plus (with solenoid)
      Electronic flow controller: US$195.00 sold as an optional extra
      Warranty: 90 Days
      URL: http://www.blowerworks.net
      EMAIL: greg@blowerworks.net

      Hyper-drive
      Location: Hyperdrive inc. Maryland, USA.
      Capabilities: Mappable pump speed controller
      Pump: Shurflo
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol, isopropyl and ethanol.
      Failsafe: low water level sensor.
      Price range: US$750.00
      Warranty: not mentioned on site
      URL: http://www.hyp-drive.com/products/alcoholinj.htm
      EMAIL: resolution@hyp-drive.com

      Labonte Motorsport
      Location: 8187 Commerce Dr.
      Loves Park, Illinois 61111 UDA
      Capabilities: Static flow, PPS based on IDC and MPS
      Pump: Aquatec
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Alcohol (call)
      Failsafe: Turbine flow sensor based
      Price range: US$295.00 - $700 + add-on optional extra
      Warranty: Not mentioned on site
      URL: http://www.labontemotorsports.com/store/index.php
      EMAIL: On site fill-in form

      Perrin
      Location: Beaverton Oregon, USA.
      Capabilities: IDC tracking - PPM pump control (progessive)
      Pump: Electrionmagnetic piston pump
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol.
      Failsafe: low water level sensor and real time flow tracking
      Price range: US$749.99
      Warranty: Terms and Conditions on Site
      URL: http://www.perrinperformance.com
      EMAIL: Sales@perrinperformance.com

      RSR
      Location: RB Racing, California, USA.
      Capabilities: Static flow, Port injection
      Pump: Shurflo
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol.
      Failsafe: water level switch
      Price range: US$185.00-345.00 + MAP sensor
      Warranty: call
      URL: www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

      SMC (Service work only)
      Location: SMC Enterprises, Kentucky, USA.
      Capabilities: Progressive controller
      Electronics controller option: - control pump speed to vary flow.
      Pump: Flojet/Rotary fuel pump
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Ethanol, Methanol, and Isopropyl alcohol types
      Failsafe: tank level sensor at present.
      Price range: US$399.00-499.00
      Warranty: 90 Days
      URL: www.smcenterprises.com
      EMAIL: schlupsa31@mchsi.com

      Snow Performance
      Location: Woodland Park, Colorado, USA.
      Capabilities: Multi-stage progressive, simultaneous injector duty cycle and boost based injection. Basic boost, MAF,
      and vacuum controlled injection systems as well. Non-progressive boost based injection also available.
      Pump: Aquatec featuring multiple high temp/pressure features, double seals, etc.
      Chemical compatibility: Any ratio of water and methanol.
      Failsafe: Flow based, adjustable minimum flow and sample time, and progressive flow based volatge output.
      Price range: 304.00-729.00
      Warranty: Standard 2 year on all systems, optional Lifetime.
      URL: http://www.snowperformance.net
      EMAIL: customerservice@snowperformance.net[/quote]v

      Spearco Water Injection System
      Location: Top-End Performance, N.Hollywood, California.USA.
      Capabilities: Static flow
      Electronic controller option: Progressive pump speed controller +$129.00
      Pump: Not specified
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol
      Failsafe: Not secified
      Price range: US$219.00
      Warranty: Call
      URL: http://www.h2oinjection.com
      EMAIL: topend@racetep.com

      TTP Engineering
      Location: Orlando, FL USA.
      Capabilities: Static flow, Progressive controller –sold separately(PWM pump)
      Pump: Shurflo Based
      Control option: pressure switch, TPS or MAP (0-5v selectable)
      Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol
      Failsafe:upgrade path available
      Price range: from US$299.00(base) + accessories
      Electronic Controller: Variable injection rate controller now available
      Warranty: Call
      URL: http://www.ttp-engineering.com
      EMAIL: online form filling
      Last edited by groggory; 04-14-2011 at 10:56 AM.

    3. Moderator groggory's Avatar
      Join Date
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      2002 VW GTI 1.8 BT
      10-22-2010 10:40 AM #3
      Installation Guidance
      Where to position your injector nozzle (1)
      Where to position your injector nozzle (2)
      How to mount your nozzle in a rubber/silicone hose

      Throttle Body Spacers
      • USRT 60mm Throttle Body Spacers


      Solenoids
      Last edited by groggory; 04-14-2011 at 11:06 AM.

    4. Moderator groggory's Avatar
      Join Date
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      Location
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      2002 VW GTI 1.8 BT
      10-22-2010 10:40 AM #4
      Performance Data from Real People

      bootymac
      • Malone Tuning Stage 3 custom tune
      • K04-001 w/ Kinetic high-flow exhaust
      • Coolingmist Stage 1 WMI
      • 2.75" CAI w/ stock MAF housing
      • Autobahn TIH, TB hose, boost hoses
      • Eurojet SMIC w/ stock duct and vented wheel liner
      • 2.5" eBay DP w/ OEM cat (inlet/outlet enlarged to 2.5")
      • 2.5" Milltek resonated cat-back
      • TT225 386cc fuel injectors w/ 3bar FPR (Chevron 94 octane gas)
      • NGK BKR7E spark plugs w/ 0.028" gap


      The WMI Kit: My WMI kit is boost activated and it injects ~300cc/m of a 40-50% methanol mixture at 10 PSI of boost. I mounted my nozzle before the TB in the TB hose. I'm using the washer fluid reservoir due to its fluid level sensor and I've also wired an LED to illuminate when the system is injecting. Based on my usage so far, I'm estimating that I will have to refill the reservoir once a month, but I keep a jug of -40C washer fluid in the hatch for emergencies.

      With that out of the way, here are the graphs comparing the runs with (red) and without (blue) WMI:

      Boost is approximately the same with and without WMI enabled:


      However, we begin seeing the benefits of WMI when we log IATs (in Celsius):


      The advantages are clear when I log timing. I added up the total idle stabilization of all 4 cylinders for simplicity:


      And here's my AFR for both runs, although I'm unsure how accurate this is due to my narrowband ECU:



      JWoody
      FrankenTurbo F4HT, UNI STG2+ (440cc beta software), Eurojet SMIC, ABD Intake Manifold, Vented Wheel Well Liner, Phenolic gasket.

      No W/M.


      W/M Injection at WOT.


      Logs of applicable Blocks...


      madmax199
      IAT drop from crusing speed on 90 degree summer day



      IAT drop on 3rd gear pull, (heat soaked on the same hot summer day)



      Timing allowed with no correction at 30psi with Water Only Injection




      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Last edited by groggory; 04-14-2011 at 10:54 AM.

    5. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      10-22-2010 10:41 AM #5
      Example Setups
      [COLOR=Green"]groggory - 2002 GTI[/COLOR]
      Labonte Motorsports Stage 2 kit
      Controller is mounted under the airbox, attached to the wire tray with some machine screws (on @ 10PSI, Full @ 18 PSI)
      Pump is mounted to the right of the battery
      Solenoid is mounted on top of the Throttle Body Tube
      Using M8 nozzle (GT28r turbo, 70mm TB, 830cc injectors)

      Overall


      Custom Intake Pipe w/ 3/8" bung welded



      Meth Feed on stock washer bottle


      Solenoid zip tied on top of the cobra pipe


      Controller mounted on wire tray
      Painless Performance Fuse Box in background fuses the Meth System (and all my systems individually)


      ------------------------------
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      new camera pics 100 by One-Eight Gti, on Flickr

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      User: BootyMac


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      Last edited by groggory; 08-19-2011 at 04:00 PM.

    6. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      10-22-2010 10:41 AM #6
      ...post6...

    7. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      10-22-2010 10:45 AM #7
      Last edited by groggory; 10-22-2010 at 10:56 AM.

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      10-22-2010 11:22 AM #8
      good thread but fix you syntax!
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    9. 10-22-2010 12:04 PM #9
      Thanks dude!
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    10. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      10-22-2010 12:16 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by ejg3855 View Post
      good thread but fix you syntax!
      Just tossing all the stuff up. I'll have it nice and organized and pretty in the next day or two.

    11. Member Andaloons's Avatar
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      04-13-2011 06:12 PM #11
      Bump for a BAD ASS thread!

    12. Member JWoody's Avatar
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      04-13-2011 06:31 PM #12
      You can use my Logs of IAT's if you wish...if you do I'll delete this post later...

      FrankenTurbo F4HT, UNI STG2+ (440cc beta software), Eurojet SMIC, ABD Intake Manifold, Vented Wheel Well Liner, Phenolic gasket.

      No W/M.


      W/M Injection at WOT.


      Logs of applicable Blocks...


      -J
      Last edited by JWoody; 04-13-2011 at 06:35 PM.

    13. Banned madmax199's Avatar
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      04-13-2011 09:23 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post




      Can you run just water injection without methanol?

      Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.

      Good thread, and thank you for taking the time to put together some valuable info .

      I have to disagree with this point because is one of the common misconception about water injection.

      Water does not ignite so it does not have a conventional fuel octane rating. However, introducing water vapor to the combustion chamber mix( air,fuel and now water vapor) greatly increase its detonation and pre-ignition (not the same) resistance, giving it even more detonation inhibition effect as the conventional or alcohol based fuels.

      You can run a water only injection system and get the same gain as you'd get on a 50/50 mix or just methanol only. The reason it's not popular(at least in the street tuning scene) is because it requires a more involved tuning approach and most tuners (or tooners I should say) go for the easy route of alky or meth.

      In a nutshell:

      -Water sprayed early porvides the best IAT heat exchange(chemical cooling) as long as you get good vaporization.

      -Late water injection(direct injection or post TB injection) provide amazing in-cylinder cooling as well as detonation resistance.

      - Leaner mixture is important(leaner than a typical water/meth mix is required)

      - A strong ignition is also required because the highr water content has a tendency to slow down flame propagation and also quench the ignition.

      Take a look at what rally cars are able to achieve with water only injection. They run upward of 40 psi of boost safely with timing right at MBT for extented period of time.
      I know some would say that the above analogy would not transfer to real life, let alone our 1.8t. I ran 30 psi of boost on the stock K04 with a water only setup and serious timing. the car made great power safely for almost a year that way(I later converted to E85 but still retained the water injection). Yes I hat to adopt a different tuning philosophy, yes I had to run multiple staggered and extra small nozzles(required for full water vaporization) but it worked great and I had no knock at 30 psi on hot summer days pushing the 1.8t at the track.



      IAT drop from crusing speed on 90 degree summer day





      Uploaded with ImageShack.us



      IAT drop on 3rd gear pull, (heat soaked on the same hot summer day)





      Uploaded with ImageShack.us




      Timing allowed with no correction at 30psi with Water Only Injection





      Uploaded with ImageShack.us
      Last edited by madmax199; 04-13-2011 at 09:35 PM.

    14. Member bootymac's Avatar
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      04-13-2011 11:03 PM #14
      Here are my preliminary findings with the Coolingmist Stage 1 kit:

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-injection-kit

    15. Member velocity196's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 12:43 AM #15
      That injector calculator is a lil difficult. To simply it use 1cc per total HP output. If your looking for 400whp get either a single 380cc or 2 180cc or a 250cc and a 180cc injector ect. You get my point I hope. It's not rocket science unless your looking for every last 1/10 of a HP
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    16. Member DMVDUB's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 01:05 AM #16
      I have a fairly simple question about W/M and placement of the nozzle.

      If you are installing one of the throttle body plates that spray post tb, wouldn't the IAT's be skewed from the W/M injection almost exactly where the IAT sensor is?
      (wouldn't they show cooler than they actually are since the h20 meth is being spayed essentially on the sensor?)

      My concern for this is; if the sensor is seeing the temp and thinks it's alot lower than it actually is I'm afraid it won't pull timing if needed.

      I'm about to install a kit on my 1.8t this weekend so I'm trying to figure out the best / most effective place to mount the nozzle /s. I'd like to install a staggered setup using one of the post tb plates and possibly another nozzle closer to the cool side of my fmic.

      Any tips or thought's greatly appreciated.

      -I was thinking about using my direct port nitrous manifold for this but it seems that it isn't the best means of introducing w/m into the cylinder head.
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    17. Member velocity196's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 03:20 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by DMVDUB View Post
      I have a fairly simple question about W/M and placement of the nozzle.

      If you are installing one of the throttle body plates that spray post tb, wouldn't the IAT's be skewed from the W/M injection almost exactly where the IAT sensor is?
      (wouldn't they show cooler than they actually are since the h20 meth is being spayed essentially on the sensor?)

      My concern for this is; if the sensor is seeing the temp and thinks it's alot lower than it actually is I'm afraid it won't pull timing if needed.

      I'm about to install a kit on my 1.8t this weekend so I'm trying to figure out the best / most effective place to mount the nozzle /s. I'd like to install a staggered setup using one of the post tb plates and possibly another nozzle closer to the cool side of my fmic.

      Any tips or thought's greatly appreciated.

      -I was thinking about using my direct port nitrous manifold for this but it seems that it isn't the best means of introducing w/m into the cylinder head.
      That'll make a great setup! In a perfect world you'll want to do your big injector down below by core and a smaller injector up on the throttle body. Don't worry tho your knock system will take over any ill effects if you have any. I ran 26 degrees timing at 32psi plus on my old 35r fir 2 years with almost zero knock and not one hole in a stock piston. And I spray all 630cc's post throttle which isn't the best place fir that much meth.
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    18. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 11:10 AM #18
      Updated thread with information gleaned from the new posts.
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    19. Member DMVDUB's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 11:52 AM #19
      What did you update? I wanna know!
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    20. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 12:08 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by DMVDUB View Post
      What did you update? I wanna know!
      Everyone above me who posted gave me some information. DMVdub gave me some info on pure water spraying. There were some logs posted that I started a w/m log section. I cross referenced some of the links and pulled info from some of the links bootymac's coolingmist review. I updated the calculator section with some more tidbits to make things easier. And did some more reformatting.

      I feel like there's a lot of information in this thread but it's still missing plenty. Over time I'll get my head around what's missing here.

      Maybe I'll dig through the websites of all the common VW parts vendors and see who carries what w/m selection. For instance I know Labonte is carried by Force Fed Engineering...cause that's where I got mine!

      ...If someone could link to places can buy throttle body spacers for the various sized throttle bodies, that would be a help.
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    21. Member JWoody's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 05:13 PM #21
      Nice work Greg. I went and deleted my post to prevent duplicate info. I forgot to mention, my W/M Kit is the Snow Performance STG 2.

      -J

    22. Member 01ttgt28's Avatar
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      04-14-2011 08:29 PM #22
      All I can say is wow

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      04-14-2011 08:36 PM #23
      Labonte stage 3 great kit I like the touch screen display lets you set what time to start injecting. what pump u what to run. injector duty cycles peak hold all in real time great kit

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      07-20-2011 10:42 PM #24
      Subscribed.
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    25. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      08-19-2011 04:01 PM #25
      Updated Pic section to include lots more sample setups.
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      11-17-2011 04:17 PM #26
      What do people on here know about Eurodyne Software and methanol injection. My mechanic who installed and ran my software (Eurodyne) is saying that Eurodyne detects the meth and adapts to it. Notices the in-let temperatures drop then re-calculates the timing etc based on that. Can anyone educate me further?

      Its a MK4 2001 Golf 1.8T with BT and AEM Universal meth kit. Eurodyne software

    27. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      11-17-2011 04:30 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Shagnew View Post
      What do people on here know about Eurodyne Software and methanol injection. My mechanic who installed and ran my software (Eurodyne) is saying that Eurodyne detects the meth and adapts to it. Notices the in-let temperatures drop then re-calculates the timing etc based on that. Can anyone educate me further?

      Its a MK4 2001 Golf 1.8T with BT and AEM Universal meth kit. Eurodyne software
      All ME7.x software adapts with changing IATs. No software 'detects' the meth, it just detects the IAT and adjusts accordingly (for the better). Also, increase your timing advance and the meth will prevent detonation. When the ECU doesn't detect detonation it will keep your advance. If it detects detonation it'll put a bunch of timing retard in play and kill your power.
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      11-17-2011 04:32 PM #28
      That would only be possible if you inject before the IAT somewhere. If it's post the most it can do is just get rid of knock induced timing pull.
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    29. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      11-17-2011 04:58 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      That would only be possible if you inject before the IAT somewhere. If it's post the most it can do is just get rid of knock induced timing pull.
      Depends on your manifold.

      My RMR manifold has the IAT on the side opposite the throttle body...meaning it can read the cooler temps.

      I used to have my meth spray 10" downstream from the TB...but I'm moving it post throttle body due to my fears of meth seepage into my TB
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      02-08-2012 07:31 AM #30
      I'm now running a Labonte :-) wow what a difference!
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    31. Member DMVDUB's Avatar
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      02-08-2012 09:38 AM #31
      Since this thread has popped back up, I thought I'd mention a few things I've learned about W/M along the way now. Mostly thanks to Quinten and Scott at USRT and my own trials.

      ^^Integrated all of your info into the main FAQ post. THANKS!!! -Greg^^

      Hope it helps-DMVDUB
      Last edited by groggory; 02-08-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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    32. 04-30-2012 10:40 AM #32
      Anyone know what size pipe will fit inside of the throttle body hose?

      Im going to cut my TB hose in half, stick a pipe w/ bung between the two halfs, and then clamp it in place.

      I beleive that ends of the hose are 3" but the middle section is considerably smaller.
      2003 Jetta 1.8T, APR Stage II ECU Upgrade, Forge 007 DV, 3" DP + 2.5" CB, Neuspeed Cone Filter, Silicone TIP, Forge TB Hose, FMIC, Snow Performance Stage II MAF actuated dual nozzle Water/Methanol Injection, NewSouth PowerGasket, 2.0TFSI igntion coils w/ IE adapters, Denso IK22 Iridium plugs @ .040", Ultimate N249/SAI/PCV/EVAP delete,catch can, ECS Stage II clutch w/ lightweight flywheel Need VCDS in Hampton Roads VA? PM me!

    33. 04-30-2012 12:09 PM #33
      A good question that may be added above if answered:

      I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.

      Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be.

      I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location.

      Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain.

      Ideas?

    34. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 12:12 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by ncsumecheng View Post
      A good question that may be added above if answered:

      I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.

      Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be.

      I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location.

      Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain.

      Ideas?
      Maybe dirty fluid

      How about spraying into a clean, clear glass and seeing if there's sediment.

      Not sure, just an idea
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    35. Member bootymac's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 01:17 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by matty675 View Post
      Anyone know what size pipe will fit inside of the throttle body hose?

      Im going to cut my TB hose in half, stick a pipe w/ bung between the two halfs, and then clamp it in place.

      I beleive that ends of the hose are 3" but the middle section is considerably smaller.
      Some silicone TB hoses can stretch over a 2.75" pipe but others can only fit 2.5"

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