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    Thread: REFERENCE: 1.8t Water / Methanol (Meth) Injection FAQ

    1. 05-07-2012 11:32 AM #36
      Actually, only 2" ID pipe will fit inside the stock throttle body hose... ask me how I know
      2003 Jetta 1.8T, APR Stage II ECU Upgrade, Forge 007 DV, 3" DP + 2.5" CB, Neuspeed Cone Filter, Silicone TIP, Forge TB Hose, FMIC, Snow Performance Stage II MAF actuated dual nozzle Water/Methanol Injection, NewSouth PowerGasket, 2.0TFSI igntion coils w/ IE adapters, Denso IK22 Iridium plugs @ .040", Ultimate N249/SAI/PCV/EVAP delete,catch can, ECS Stage II clutch w/ lightweight flywheel Need VCDS in Hampton Roads VA? PM me!

    2. 05-07-2012 11:55 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by ncsumecheng View Post
      A good question that may be added above if answered:

      I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.

      Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be.

      I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location.

      Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain.

      Ideas?
      Check valves look good on paper but everyone with experience using them on W/I will tell you that they all leak to various degree even with limited use. Solenoids are the way to go if you want consistency and real peace of mind. I have personally seen brand new check valves fail to seal properly. Back in the days, we had no choice since that is what was available/affordable but now a solenoid can be used for next to nothing. I quit messing with check valves except for using them as failsafes behind a solenoid.

    3. 06-12-2012 01:33 PM #38
      Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.

    4. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 01:38 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.
      This is going to take logging

      Do you have vag com?
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    5. 06-12-2012 01:48 PM #40
      No what needs checking with vag-com?? can poss get someone do logs for me.

    6. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 02:22 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      No what needs checking with vag-com?? can poss get someone do logs for me.
      We'll first get a baseline batch of logs on some 3rd gear pulls. This will tell us your:

      AFR
      IAT
      Per Cylinder Timing Pull
      MAF
      IDC / pulsewidth

      If everything looks good including timing pull = 0 then we'll move on...
      ...

      Then we'll turn your meth injection on and do some more logs. We should see your IATs go down, your AFR stay spot on, your MAF stay the same, and your IDC go down. Timing pull should be all zeroes.

      If all looks good, then we'll move on

      ...

      Then we'll bump you up say 3 degrees of timing, then do more logs.

      IATs should be about the same, AFR should stay spot on, MAF should go up, IDC should be the same. We may see a few blips on timing pull. Timing pull should max out around 5 (MAX)

      ...

      If timing pull is still conservative, then we can bump you some more timing, maybe another 1.5-2 degrees. And more logs...

      IATs = same. AFR= same. MAF=up, IDC=same.

      And see where your timing pull is.

      How much timing you add is how much extra power you can get. But the more timing the more aggressive your tune becomes. Also, you want to leave headroom on the tune for super hot days when your car isn't getting that low of IATs as when you're testing.

      Also, if we encounter low RPM bogging we'll want to move the spray point up. If we don't, then we can move the spray point down.

      ...so you see, it takes vag com to make power with w/m.

      On a sidenote, even without tuning, w/m will decrease IATs especially on super hot days when your intercooler gets heat soaked. So it's a win there.

      Hope that helps.



      I suggest you read the whole water/meth FAQ thread.
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    7. 06-12-2012 02:32 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      We'll first get a baseline batch of logs on some 3rd gear pulls. This will tell us your:

      AFR
      IAT
      Per Cylinder Timing Pull
      MAF
      IDC / pulsewidth

      If everything looks good including timing pull = 0 then we'll move on...
      ...

      Then we'll turn your meth injection on and do some more logs. We should see your IATs go down, your AFR stay spot on, your MAF stay the same, and your IDC go down. Timing pull should be all zeroes.

      If all looks good, then we'll move on

      ...

      Then we'll bump you up say 3 degrees of timing, then do more logs.

      IATs should be about the same, AFR should stay spot on, MAF should go up, IDC should be the same. We may see a few blips on timing pull. Timing pull should max out around 5 (MAX)

      ...

      If timing pull is still conservative, then we can bump you some more timing, maybe another 1.5-2 degrees. And more logs...

      IATs = same. AFR= same. MAF=up, IDC=same.

      And see where your timing pull is.

      How much timing you add is how much extra power you can get. But the more timing the more aggressive your tune becomes. Also, you want to leave headroom on the tune for super hot days when your car isn't getting that low of IATs as when you're testing.

      Also, if we encounter low RPM bogging we'll want to move the spray point up. If we don't, then we can move the spray point down.

      ...so you see, it takes vag com to make power with w/m.

      On a sidenote, even without tuning, w/m will decrease IATs especially on super hot days when your intercooler gets heat soaked. So it's a win there.

      Hope that helps.



      I suggest you read the whole water/meth FAQ thread.
      I'm in the uk not such thing as super hot days here!!! When go see my uncles on florida keys or tampa nothing like that heat. was in florida 18 months ago sept and october thats hot we dont get them temps over here.

    8. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 02:53 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      I'm in the uk not such thing as super hot days here!!! When go see my uncles on florida keys or tampa nothing like that heat. was in florida 18 months ago sept and october thats hot we dont get them temps over here.
      Ok, let's do your base line logging then. All logging should be done in 3rd gear from ~2000 - 6500 RPM if possible.

      Make two passes on each of these

      Blocks 002 / 118 / 020

      Blocks 001 / 031 / 032

      Then turn on your water meth injection at a 10 PSI set point and do it again

      Post up the csv files (I use dropbox) and we'll analyze the data and decide where to go from there.
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    9. 06-12-2012 02:54 PM #44
      Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41.

    10. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 02:57 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41.
      Thanks for the tip. I'm not an expert tuner. I just try my best.

      What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at.

      Do you know the best way to figure out when to start injecting?

      Oh, and the OP needs to be injecting a consistant blend of water/alcohol throughout this testing. 50/50 by weight is the accepted mix.
      Last edited by groggory; 06-12-2012 at 03:00 PM.
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    11. 06-12-2012 03:23 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Thanks for the tip. I'm not an expert tuner. I just try my best.

      What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at.

      Do you know the best way to figure out when to start injecting?

      Oh, and the OP needs to be injecting a consistant blend of water/alcohol throughout this testing. 50/50 by weight is the accepted mix.
      The blocks you recommended will give him all that he needs to tune the setup. All that is really needed is AFR, IAT, Timing, Corrections (individual corrections per cyl).

      When to start injecting is kind of dependent of the intended use of the car and what type of injection we are talking about.

      Personally, I think that injection pre-TB should start before ideal time. the reason being that I tested delays in IAT changes recorded by the sensor due to residual heat in the area (phenolic manifold spacer greatly helped with this but didn't totally cured it). Simply put, you need to anticipate delays in heat recorded by the IAT sensor and spray early for best IAT management.

      Post-TB with the intent of creating in-cylinder cooling needs a different approach as early injection could create misfires by quenching the spark. The perfect setup would call for a sequential controller to to tune both type of injection or two pumps to get the best out of both.

      Now, I like my spray to come before that initial boost spike at onset. I don't rely on pressure based controllers because they follow the boost curve and your spray pattern is as laggy as your boost. A MAF controller at least or MAF/injector duty controller is the way to go nowadays IMO (the technology and price makes it available to all).

      Yes, consistent mixture is recommended but don't kill yourself over it. Slight variations are negligible and I learned to prefer to mix by volume as it is most convenient (although I run straight water in all my cars except in the winter where 30% of denatured alcohol is added for obvious reasons).

    12. 06-12-2012 03:37 PM #47
      Another thing I want to contribute for the thread is you need to update the pump used by the various kits. It used to be shurflo aka crapflo for all, but now it's seems that most vendors assembling parts together as kits have made the Aquatec DDP 5800 the gold standard in that market. It's a better pump with internal bypass, set at 200 psi default but adjustable to 250 psi by an allen screw. (It's sad that some vendors still use the $40 wholesale shurflo in these day and age )

      Pic of the the Aquatec pump in most of the kits now





      Here are some pics of the new direct port setup that you could use in your nozzle placement pics.















      Neat little distribution block made using 42DD vacuum manifold instead of using a plastic 4-1 fitting


      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 06-12-2012 at 03:56 PM.

    13. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 05:52 PM #48
      For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners?

      I've been considering doing something like that on my RMR intake manifold.
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    14. 06-12-2012 06:28 PM #49
      Nice Pics! Max whats the best way to remove that fuel using unisettings? Channel 2 Fueling on increasing load? If so, do you add to the channel so the % goes up(clicking the up arrow)? It would make sense that you would make the percentage go down(click the down arrow) but I think I've heard you say to add to that channel? can you clarify? TIA

    15. 06-12-2012 08:38 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners?
      IMO, the position that offers the best results is the way I have it in the pics. Placing the nozzles in the runners (even at an acute angle) and you will have fluid pooling on the small runners, you also risk interference with the injector spray if placed too far down the runner. I tried a few positions on the bench with a spare manifold and the way I have it is by far the best compromise with the manifold design.

    16. 06-12-2012 08:42 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Twopnt016v View Post
      Nice Pics! Max whats the best way to remove that fuel using unisettings? Channel 2 Fueling on increasing load? If so, do you add to the channel so the % goes up(clicking the up arrow)? It would make sense that you would make the percentage go down(click the down arrow) but I think I've heard you say to add to that channel? can you clarify? TIA
      Remove to the channel with the click down arrow. It will remove a percentage of the fuel added under increasing loads.

    17. 06-12-2012 09:02 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Remove to the channel with the click down arrow. It will remove a percentage of the fuel added under increasing loads.

    18. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 09:25 PM #53
      Sweet. What right angle adapters are you using there?
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    19. 06-12-2012 10:11 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Sweet. What right angle adapters are you using there?
      They are actually custom 35 cc/min nozzles drilled for the narrowest cone spray possible.

    20. 06-13-2012 03:11 PM #55
      Well bit the bullet and rand scott at usrt, he said as i'm running boost type switch on/off type will never see anything from wmi. I have to have proper progressive controller recommended maf one over map or boost line controller. So need invest in one of those 1st also said get $30 line pressure gauge too. getting octane and v-tune loaded friday anyway go from there.

    21. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-13-2012 03:15 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      Well bit the bullet and rand scott at usrt, he said as i'm running boost type switch on/off type will never see anything from wmi. I have to have proper progressive controller recommended maf one over map or boost line controller. So need invest in one of those 1st also said get $30 line pressure gauge too. getting octane and v-tune loaded friday anyway go from there.
      BAH! I disagree. You can do lots with just a pressure switch. But a progressive controller is better.

      On a side note, a good start are those logs. Your new stuff's in the mail. Let's see where you're starting from with some logs
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    22. 06-13-2012 04:38 PM #57
      I wanna direct port nitrous and wm. But not sure where best placement is for the wmi lines on my manifold.
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    23. 06-13-2012 05:15 PM #58
      I got vag com lite does blocks but only upto 025, its a start s suppose.

    24. 06-16-2012 09:19 AM #59
      Doing my timing adj following snow guide say increase timing by 2 degrees 3rd gear pull, keep adding 2 till hear detenation and decrease by 2. Increase mine by 6 altogether still no detenation shall i stop or increase till detenation and retard accordingly??? Hell of a difference in performance at moment.

    25. 06-16-2012 09:44 AM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      Doing my timing adj following snow guide say increase timing by 2 degrees 3rd gear pull, keep adding 2 till hear detenation and decrease by 2. Increase mine by 6 altogether still no detenation shall i stop or increase till detenation and retard accordingly??? Hell of a difference in performance at moment.
      Keep adding until there is timing correction, that is the whole point of using water injection. Just make sure you do uphills and high gear pulls as they tend to load the motor more than the usual flat road 3rd gear pull. Once you finally see some correction back it down 3 degrees to give you a safety net for those hot days and when you get that bad batch of gas.

    26. 06-16-2012 10:09 AM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Keep adding until there is timing correction, that is the whole point of using water injection. Just make sure you do uphills and high gear pulls as they tend to load the motor more than the usual flat road 3rd gear pull. Once you finally see some correction back it down 3 degrees to give you a safety net for those hot days and when you get that bad batch of gas.
      Thanks will do was monitoring intake temp 17 degrees under load using power gasket has made hell of a difference in intake temp. Got work yesterday couldn't touch inlet manifold too hot, then fitted power gasket. Hammered it to work this morning manifold just warm. IAT steady 30ish at idle, 22 cruising and 16-17 when meth comes in.
      Last edited by shaft6s9; 06-16-2012 at 10:11 AM.

    27. 06-16-2012 11:24 AM #62
      Nice thread Greg
      Quote Originally Posted by gdoggmoney View Post
      There's been too much butt sniffing before this dog fight.
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    28. 06-16-2012 12:13 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by *+NEIL*+DIAMOND*+ View Post
      Nice thread Greg
      Mos def..

    29. 06-17-2012 06:52 AM #64
      Having my nozzle in spacer plate after throttle got check valve in line have been told by devils own only need valve, did order solenoid and was told don't need it if have valve. Been reading that some still have leak with checl valve and the should be tight for over 20psi pressure before they leak.

    30. 06-17-2012 08:11 AM #65
      Check valves fail all the time. You did the right thing by getting a solenoid! If the check valve fails you could potentially hydro lock your engine. Solenoid is the only way to go in my opinion.

    31. 06-17-2012 08:33 AM #66
      Thanks wil order one with my rest of stuff, seller gone racing till tuesdsy.

    32. 06-17-2012 09:35 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Twopnt016v View Post
      Solenoid is the only way to go in my opinion.
      I totally agree. However, it is to be noted that the solenoids tend go bad also from time to time. I'm saying this because I don't want everybody reading this thread thinking that once you add a solenoid, you should never check/inspect your system.

      I also want to add that although I think it's a big mistake to rely on check valves only on your system, I still like to put one on each main line, in addition to the solenoids as a failsafe. The best thing to really have with with your solenoids and check valves is a fluid flow sensor, that way you're always warned when there are issues.

    33. 06-17-2012 10:25 AM #68
      Cool already have check valve in the line will fit solenoid in too. Better safe than sorry.

    34. 06-17-2012 11:53 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      I totally agree. However, it is to be noted that the solenoids tend go bad also from time to time. I'm saying this because I don't want everybody reading this thread thinking that once you add a solenoid, you should never check/inspect your system.

      I also want to add that although I think it's a big mistake to rely on check valves only on your system, I still like to put one on each main line, in addition to the solenoids as a failsafe. The best thing to really have with with your solenoids and check valves is a fluid flow sensor, that way you're always warned when there are issues.
      No doubt...I agree 100%
      I actually just had a problem with one of solenoids just the other day. The o-ring inside the fitting going IN the solenoid was leaking. So every time the the pump cut on fluid leaked out/back sprayed out of the fitting. In return there was no real line pressure so the mixture was just drizzling out of the nozzle as well. I like to check the operation of my system at least once a month just to make sure everything is copasetic. I do need to get a flow sensor...

    35. 06-17-2012 02:47 PM #70
      ^^^ Yup, happens more often than you think and that is why the flow sensor is your friend. Once you have a good baseline, any anomaly will show up on the gauge. Before my flow sensor days, I used to disconnect every nozzle in the system and test them before race day. You'll be surprise how often there was an issue.

      The most common issue is at the nozzles themselves. From clogged filter to dislodged floater and obstructed tip hole, lots of thing go wrong in practice to make those nozzles only dribble water into your motor because of a lack of flow. That's why I tell people don't use windshield washer fluid but I get attacked for it (with my car running on the ragged edge I can't afford issues at full boost, maybe others can ).

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