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    Thread: REFERENCE: 1.8t Water / Methanol (Meth) Injection FAQ

    1. Junior Member
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      11-17-2011 04:17 PM #26
      What do people on here know about Eurodyne Software and methanol injection. My mechanic who installed and ran my software (Eurodyne) is saying that Eurodyne detects the meth and adapts to it. Notices the in-let temperatures drop then re-calculates the timing etc based on that. Can anyone educate me further?

      Its a MK4 2001 Golf 1.8T with BT and AEM Universal meth kit. Eurodyne software

    2. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      11-17-2011 04:30 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Shagnew View Post
      What do people on here know about Eurodyne Software and methanol injection. My mechanic who installed and ran my software (Eurodyne) is saying that Eurodyne detects the meth and adapts to it. Notices the in-let temperatures drop then re-calculates the timing etc based on that. Can anyone educate me further?

      Its a MK4 2001 Golf 1.8T with BT and AEM Universal meth kit. Eurodyne software
      All ME7.x software adapts with changing IATs. No software 'detects' the meth, it just detects the IAT and adjusts accordingly (for the better). Also, increase your timing advance and the meth will prevent detonation. When the ECU doesn't detect detonation it will keep your advance. If it detects detonation it'll put a bunch of timing retard in play and kill your power.
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    3. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      11-17-2011 04:32 PM #28
      That would only be possible if you inject before the IAT somewhere. If it's post the most it can do is just get rid of knock induced timing pull.
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    4. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      11-17-2011 04:58 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      That would only be possible if you inject before the IAT somewhere. If it's post the most it can do is just get rid of knock induced timing pull.
      Depends on your manifold.

      My RMR manifold has the IAT on the side opposite the throttle body...meaning it can read the cooler temps.

      I used to have my meth spray 10" downstream from the TB...but I'm moving it post throttle body due to my fears of meth seepage into my TB
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    5. Member mcgyver7923's Avatar
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      02-08-2012 07:31 AM #30
      I'm now running a Labonte :-) wow what a difference!
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    6. Member DMVDUB's Avatar
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      02-08-2012 09:38 AM #31
      Since this thread has popped back up, I thought I'd mention a few things I've learned about W/M along the way now. Mostly thanks to Quinten and Scott at USRT and my own trials.

      ^^Integrated all of your info into the main FAQ post. THANKS!!! -Greg^^

      Hope it helps-DMVDUB
      Last edited by groggory; 02-08-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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    7. 04-30-2012 10:40 AM #32
      Anyone know what size pipe will fit inside of the throttle body hose?

      Im going to cut my TB hose in half, stick a pipe w/ bung between the two halfs, and then clamp it in place.

      I beleive that ends of the hose are 3" but the middle section is considerably smaller.
      2003 Jetta 1.8T, APR Stage II ECU Upgrade, Forge 007 DV, 3" DP + 2.5" CB, Neuspeed Cone Filter, Silicone TIP, Forge TB Hose, FMIC, Snow Performance Stage II MAF actuated dual nozzle Water/Methanol Injection, NewSouth PowerGasket, 2.0TFSI igntion coils w/ IE adapters, Denso IK22 Iridium plugs @ .040", Ultimate N249/SAI/PCV/EVAP delete,catch can, ECS Stage II clutch w/ lightweight flywheel Need VCDS in Hampton Roads VA? PM me!

    8. 04-30-2012 12:09 PM #33
      A good question that may be added above if answered:

      I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.

      Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be.

      I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location.

      Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain.

      Ideas?

    9. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-30-2012 12:12 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by ncsumecheng View Post
      A good question that may be added above if answered:

      I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.

      Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be.

      I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location.

      Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain.

      Ideas?
      Maybe dirty fluid

      How about spraying into a clean, clear glass and seeing if there's sediment.

      Not sure, just an idea
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    10. 04-30-2012 01:17 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by matty675 View Post
      Anyone know what size pipe will fit inside of the throttle body hose?

      Im going to cut my TB hose in half, stick a pipe w/ bung between the two halfs, and then clamp it in place.

      I beleive that ends of the hose are 3" but the middle section is considerably smaller.
      Some silicone TB hoses can stretch over a 2.75" pipe but others can only fit 2.5"

    11. 05-07-2012 10:32 AM #36
      Actually, only 2" ID pipe will fit inside the stock throttle body hose... ask me how I know
      2003 Jetta 1.8T, APR Stage II ECU Upgrade, Forge 007 DV, 3" DP + 2.5" CB, Neuspeed Cone Filter, Silicone TIP, Forge TB Hose, FMIC, Snow Performance Stage II MAF actuated dual nozzle Water/Methanol Injection, NewSouth PowerGasket, 2.0TFSI igntion coils w/ IE adapters, Denso IK22 Iridium plugs @ .040", Ultimate N249/SAI/PCV/EVAP delete,catch can, ECS Stage II clutch w/ lightweight flywheel Need VCDS in Hampton Roads VA? PM me!

    12. 05-07-2012 10:55 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by ncsumecheng View Post
      A good question that may be added above if answered:

      I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.

      Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be.

      I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location.

      Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain.

      Ideas?
      Check valves look good on paper but everyone with experience using them on W/I will tell you that they all leak to various degree even with limited use. Solenoids are the way to go if you want consistency and real peace of mind. I have personally seen brand new check valves fail to seal properly. Back in the days, we had no choice since that is what was available/affordable but now a solenoid can be used for next to nothing. I quit messing with check valves except for using them as failsafes behind a solenoid.

    13. 06-12-2012 12:33 PM #38
      Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.

    14. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 12:38 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.
      This is going to take logging

      Do you have vag com?
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    15. 06-12-2012 12:48 PM #40
      No what needs checking with vag-com?? can poss get someone do logs for me.

    16. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 01:22 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      No what needs checking with vag-com?? can poss get someone do logs for me.
      We'll first get a baseline batch of logs on some 3rd gear pulls. This will tell us your:

      AFR
      IAT
      Per Cylinder Timing Pull
      MAF
      IDC / pulsewidth

      If everything looks good including timing pull = 0 then we'll move on...
      ...

      Then we'll turn your meth injection on and do some more logs. We should see your IATs go down, your AFR stay spot on, your MAF stay the same, and your IDC go down. Timing pull should be all zeroes.

      If all looks good, then we'll move on

      ...

      Then we'll bump you up say 3 degrees of timing, then do more logs.

      IATs should be about the same, AFR should stay spot on, MAF should go up, IDC should be the same. We may see a few blips on timing pull. Timing pull should max out around 5 (MAX)

      ...

      If timing pull is still conservative, then we can bump you some more timing, maybe another 1.5-2 degrees. And more logs...

      IATs = same. AFR= same. MAF=up, IDC=same.

      And see where your timing pull is.

      How much timing you add is how much extra power you can get. But the more timing the more aggressive your tune becomes. Also, you want to leave headroom on the tune for super hot days when your car isn't getting that low of IATs as when you're testing.

      Also, if we encounter low RPM bogging we'll want to move the spray point up. If we don't, then we can move the spray point down.

      ...so you see, it takes vag com to make power with w/m.

      On a sidenote, even without tuning, w/m will decrease IATs especially on super hot days when your intercooler gets heat soaked. So it's a win there.

      Hope that helps.



      I suggest you read the whole water/meth FAQ thread.
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      Welcome to the world of racing! Budgets are ALWAYS exceeded, deadlines are never met, end-goals never reached, and wives always unhappy... it's all worth it though!

    17. 06-12-2012 01:32 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      We'll first get a baseline batch of logs on some 3rd gear pulls. This will tell us your:

      AFR
      IAT
      Per Cylinder Timing Pull
      MAF
      IDC / pulsewidth

      If everything looks good including timing pull = 0 then we'll move on...
      ...

      Then we'll turn your meth injection on and do some more logs. We should see your IATs go down, your AFR stay spot on, your MAF stay the same, and your IDC go down. Timing pull should be all zeroes.

      If all looks good, then we'll move on

      ...

      Then we'll bump you up say 3 degrees of timing, then do more logs.

      IATs should be about the same, AFR should stay spot on, MAF should go up, IDC should be the same. We may see a few blips on timing pull. Timing pull should max out around 5 (MAX)

      ...

      If timing pull is still conservative, then we can bump you some more timing, maybe another 1.5-2 degrees. And more logs...

      IATs = same. AFR= same. MAF=up, IDC=same.

      And see where your timing pull is.

      How much timing you add is how much extra power you can get. But the more timing the more aggressive your tune becomes. Also, you want to leave headroom on the tune for super hot days when your car isn't getting that low of IATs as when you're testing.

      Also, if we encounter low RPM bogging we'll want to move the spray point up. If we don't, then we can move the spray point down.

      ...so you see, it takes vag com to make power with w/m.

      On a sidenote, even without tuning, w/m will decrease IATs especially on super hot days when your intercooler gets heat soaked. So it's a win there.

      Hope that helps.



      I suggest you read the whole water/meth FAQ thread.
      I'm in the uk not such thing as super hot days here!!! When go see my uncles on florida keys or tampa nothing like that heat. was in florida 18 months ago sept and october thats hot we dont get them temps over here.

    18. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 01:53 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by shaft6s9 View Post
      I'm in the uk not such thing as super hot days here!!! When go see my uncles on florida keys or tampa nothing like that heat. was in florida 18 months ago sept and october thats hot we dont get them temps over here.
      Ok, let's do your base line logging then. All logging should be done in 3rd gear from ~2000 - 6500 RPM if possible.

      Make two passes on each of these

      Blocks 002 / 118 / 020

      Blocks 001 / 031 / 032

      Then turn on your water meth injection at a 10 PSI set point and do it again

      Post up the csv files (I use dropbox) and we'll analyze the data and decide where to go from there.
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    19. 06-12-2012 01:54 PM #44
      Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41.

    20. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 01:57 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41.
      Thanks for the tip. I'm not an expert tuner. I just try my best.

      What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at.

      Do you know the best way to figure out when to start injecting?

      Oh, and the OP needs to be injecting a consistant blend of water/alcohol throughout this testing. 50/50 by weight is the accepted mix.
      Last edited by groggory; 06-12-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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    21. 06-12-2012 02:23 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Thanks for the tip. I'm not an expert tuner. I just try my best.

      What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at.

      Do you know the best way to figure out when to start injecting?

      Oh, and the OP needs to be injecting a consistant blend of water/alcohol throughout this testing. 50/50 by weight is the accepted mix.
      The blocks you recommended will give him all that he needs to tune the setup. All that is really needed is AFR, IAT, Timing, Corrections (individual corrections per cyl).

      When to start injecting is kind of dependent of the intended use of the car and what type of injection we are talking about.

      Personally, I think that injection pre-TB should start before ideal time. the reason being that I tested delays in IAT changes recorded by the sensor due to residual heat in the area (phenolic manifold spacer greatly helped with this but didn't totally cured it). Simply put, you need to anticipate delays in heat recorded by the IAT sensor and spray early for best IAT management.

      Post-TB with the intent of creating in-cylinder cooling needs a different approach as early injection could create misfires by quenching the spark. The perfect setup would call for a sequential controller to to tune both type of injection or two pumps to get the best out of both.

      Now, I like my spray to come before that initial boost spike at onset. I don't rely on pressure based controllers because they follow the boost curve and your spray pattern is as laggy as your boost. A MAF controller at least or MAF/injector duty controller is the way to go nowadays IMO (the technology and price makes it available to all).

      Yes, consistent mixture is recommended but don't kill yourself over it. Slight variations are negligible and I learned to prefer to mix by volume as it is most convenient (although I run straight water in all my cars except in the winter where 30% of denatured alcohol is added for obvious reasons).

    22. 06-12-2012 02:37 PM #47
      Another thing I want to contribute for the thread is you need to update the pump used by the various kits. It used to be shurflo aka crapflo for all, but now it's seems that most vendors assembling parts together as kits have made the Aquatec DDP 5800 the gold standard in that market. It's a better pump with internal bypass, set at 200 psi default but adjustable to 250 psi by an allen screw. (It's sad that some vendors still use the $40 wholesale shurflo in these day and age )

      Pic of the the Aquatec pump in most of the kits now





      Here are some pics of the new direct port setup that you could use in your nozzle placement pics.















      Neat little distribution block made using 42DD vacuum manifold instead of using a plastic 4-1 fitting


      Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 06-12-2012 at 02:56 PM.

    23. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      06-12-2012 04:52 PM #48
      For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners?

      I've been considering doing something like that on my RMR intake manifold.
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    24. 06-12-2012 05:28 PM #49
      Nice Pics! Max whats the best way to remove that fuel using unisettings? Channel 2 Fueling on increasing load? If so, do you add to the channel so the % goes up(clicking the up arrow)? It would make sense that you would make the percentage go down(click the down arrow) but I think I've heard you say to add to that channel? can you clarify? TIA

    25. 06-12-2012 07:38 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners?
      IMO, the position that offers the best results is the way I have it in the pics. Placing the nozzles in the runners (even at an acute angle) and you will have fluid pooling on the small runners, you also risk interference with the injector spray if placed too far down the runner. I tried a few positions on the bench with a spare manifold and the way I have it is by far the best compromise with the manifold design.

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