Actually, only 2" ID pipe will fit inside the stock throttle body hose... ask me how I know
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Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.
Per Cylinder Timing Pull
IDC / pulsewidth
If everything looks good including timing pull = 0 then we'll move on...
Then we'll turn your meth injection on and do some more logs. We should see your IATs go down, your AFR stay spot on, your MAF stay the same, and your IDC go down. Timing pull should be all zeroes.
If all looks good, then we'll move on
Then we'll bump you up say 3 degrees of timing, then do more logs.
IATs should be about the same, AFR should stay spot on, MAF should go up, IDC should be the same. We may see a few blips on timing pull. Timing pull should max out around 5 (MAX)
If timing pull is still conservative, then we can bump you some more timing, maybe another 1.5-2 degrees. And more logs...
IATs = same. AFR= same. MAF=up, IDC=same.
And see where your timing pull is.
How much timing you add is how much extra power you can get. But the more timing the more aggressive your tune becomes. Also, you want to leave headroom on the tune for super hot days when your car isn't getting that low of IATs as when you're testing.
Also, if we encounter low RPM bogging we'll want to move the spray point up. If we don't, then we can move the spray point down.
...so you see, it takes vag com to make power with w/m.
On a sidenote, even without tuning, w/m will decrease IATs especially on super hot days when your intercooler gets heat soaked. So it's a win there.
Hope that helps.
I suggest you read the whole water/meth FAQ thread.
Make two passes on each of these
Blocks 002 / 118 / 020
Blocks 001 / 031 / 032
Then turn on your water meth injection at a 10 PSI set point and do it again
Post up the csv files (I use dropbox) and we'll analyze the data and decide where to go from there.
Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41.
What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at.
Do you know the best way to figure out when to start injecting?
Oh, and the OP needs to be injecting a consistant blend of water/alcohol throughout this testing. 50/50 by weight is the accepted mix.
Last edited by groggory; 06-12-2012 at 02:00 PM.
When to start injecting is kind of dependent of the intended use of the car and what type of injection we are talking about.
Personally, I think that injection pre-TB should start before ideal time. the reason being that I tested delays in IAT changes recorded by the sensor due to residual heat in the area (phenolic manifold spacer greatly helped with this but didn't totally cured it). Simply put, you need to anticipate delays in heat recorded by the IAT sensor and spray early for best IAT management.
Post-TB with the intent of creating in-cylinder cooling needs a different approach as early injection could create misfires by quenching the spark. The perfect setup would call for a sequential controller to to tune both type of injection or two pumps to get the best out of both.
Now, I like my spray to come before that initial boost spike at onset. I don't rely on pressure based controllers because they follow the boost curve and your spray pattern is as laggy as your boost. A MAF controller at least or MAF/injector duty controller is the way to go nowadays IMO (the technology and price makes it available to all).
Yes, consistent mixture is recommended but don't kill yourself over it. Slight variations are negligible and I learned to prefer to mix by volume as it is most convenient (although I run straight water in all my cars except in the winter where 30% of denatured alcohol is added for obvious reasons).
Another thing I want to contribute for the thread is you need to update the pump used by the various kits. It used to be shurflo aka crapflo for all, but now it's seems that most vendors assembling parts together as kits have made the Aquatec DDP 5800 the gold standard in that market. It's a better pump with internal bypass, set at 200 psi default but adjustable to 250 psi by an allen screw. (It's sad that some vendors still use the $40 wholesale shurflo in these day and age )
Pic of the the Aquatec pump in most of the kits now
Here are some pics of the new direct port setup that you could use in your nozzle placement pics.
Neat little distribution block made using 42DD vacuum manifold instead of using a plastic 4-1 fitting
Last edited by Marcus_Aurelius; 06-12-2012 at 02:56 PM.
For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners?
I've been considering doing something like that on my RMR intake manifold.
Nice Pics! Max whats the best way to remove that fuel using unisettings? Channel 2 Fueling on increasing load? If so, do you add to the channel so the % goes up(clicking the up arrow)? It would make sense that you would make the percentage go down(click the down arrow) but I think I've heard you say to add to that channel? can you clarify? TIA
Sweet. What right angle adapters are you using there?
Well bit the bullet and rand scott at usrt, he said as i'm running boost type switch on/off type will never see anything from wmi. I have to have proper progressive controller recommended maf one over map or boost line controller. So need invest in one of those 1st also said get $30 line pressure gauge too. getting octane and v-tune loaded friday anyway go from there.
I wanna direct port nitrous and wm. But not sure where best placement is for the wmi lines on my manifold.
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Doing my timing adj following snow guide say increase timing by 2 degrees 3rd gear pull, keep adding 2 till hear detenation and decrease by 2. Increase mine by 6 altogether still no detenation shall i stop or increase till detenation and retard accordingly??? Hell of a difference in performance at moment.
Last edited by shaft6s9; 06-16-2012 at 09:11 AM.
Having my nozzle in spacer plate after throttle got check valve in line have been told by devils own only need valve, did order solenoid and was told don't need it if have valve. Been reading that some still have leak with checl valve and the should be tight for over 20psi pressure before they leak.
I also want to add that although I think it's a big mistake to rely on check valves only on your system, I still like to put one on each main line, in addition to the solenoids as a failsafe. The best thing to really have with with your solenoids and check valves is a fluid flow sensor, that way you're always warned when there are issues.
I actually just had a problem with one of solenoids just the other day. The o-ring inside the fitting going IN the solenoid was leaking. So every time the the pump cut on fluid leaked out/back sprayed out of the fitting. In return there was no real line pressure so the mixture was just drizzling out of the nozzle as well. I like to check the operation of my system at least once a month just to make sure everything is copasetic. I do need to get a flow sensor...
^^^ Yup, happens more often than you think and that is why the flow sensor is your friend. Once you have a good baseline, any anomaly will show up on the gauge. Before my flow sensor days, I used to disconnect every nozzle in the system and test them before race day. You'll be surprise how often there was an issue.
The most common issue is at the nozzles themselves. From clogged filter to dislodged floater and obstructed tip hole, lots of thing go wrong in practice to make those nozzles only dribble water into your motor because of a lack of flow. That's why I tell people don't use windshield washer fluid but I get attacked for it (with my car running on the ragged edge I can't afford issues at full boost, maybe others can ).