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    Thread: vr6 header that actually makes power?

    1. 12-01-2010 12:41 AM #1
      Im looking for a header for my 98 12 valve vr6 that actually makes power, what are yours guys opinions, i like the raceland vr6 header but not sure need your guys opinons

    2. Member 12veeRsix's Avatar
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      12-01-2010 12:52 AM #2
      estyles makes one for a little more than a grand...so far pretty much the only header to make proven gains.

    3. Member no vtec 4me's Avatar
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      12-01-2010 06:56 AM #3
      if you want power youre better off porting your stock one out a little bit. THeres a thread in here somewhere that exlplains it a little better
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    4. Member EuroSportChicago's Avatar
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      12-01-2010 02:02 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by no vtec 4me View Post
      if you want power youre better off porting your stock one out a little bit. THeres a thread in here somewhere that exlplains it a little better
      +1
      Quote Originally Posted by aphythiate View Post
      I don't understand what you said. I'm guessing you did a "dump'n'go" minus the go.
      Quote Originally Posted by RayMkIIIvdub View Post
      where are the muffler bearings and is that something i can change myself

    5. Member ricardo's Avatar
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      12-01-2010 02:11 PM #5
      Headers would be the last thing I would do for power... there is a thread about how to make power.. search for it
      "Public transportation......because you're poor"
      done everything that's cheap....broke the most expensive parts....

      having cooling problems? check this out http://the-corrado.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68720

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      12-01-2010 04:16 PM #6
      I am still waiting for third party proof that the estyles header actually makes power. The graphs the provided as proof were suspect at best. Show me a header for any other car that shifts the entire curve up the same amount like the graph they posted.

      As others have said porting your stock manifolds is the best bang for the buck solution for most.
      11.82@113 First and only All Motor 12v Street Car in the 11' s

    7. Member EuroSportChicago's Avatar
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      12-01-2010 07:23 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by ricardo View Post
      Headers would be the last thing I would do for power... there is a thread about how to make power.. search for it
      That was the first thing I realized about European cars such as VW and BMW. I used to be into american cars, and adding headers and full exhaust would bring out some BIG power, for like 600 bucks. With the European cars headers are expensive and provide very minimal gains.

      The money spent on headers would be more well spent somewhere else in order to build power.
      Quote Originally Posted by aphythiate View Post
      I don't understand what you said. I'm guessing you did a "dump'n'go" minus the go.
      Quote Originally Posted by RayMkIIIvdub View Post
      where are the muffler bearings and is that something i can change myself

    8. Member !!Wild Man!!'s Avatar
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      12-06-2010 01:46 AM #8
      s2 metal works

    9. Member URIN 2ND's Avatar
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      12-06-2010 03:38 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by EuroSportChicago View Post
      That was the first thing I realized about European cars such as VW and BMW. I used to be into american cars, and adding headers and full exhaust would bring out some BIG power, for like 600 bucks. With the European cars headers are expensive and provide very minimal gains.

      The money spent on headers would be more well spent somewhere else in order to build power.
      I think that's quite the gigantic generalization...16V headers do quite a bit.

      Interesting to see that everyone hops on the "headers lose HP on a VR6" bandwagon, when I can't seem to find a single post where someone put up dyno results before and after a header swap and lost power. Not to say it hasn't happened, but there's no proof out there to support it.
      Quote Originally Posted by SGLoki View Post
      I believe rupaul is the tallest trans.

    10. Member URIN 2ND's Avatar
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      12-06-2010 03:40 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      I think that's quite the gigantic generalization...16V headers do quite a bit.

      Interesting to see that everyone hops on the "headers lose HP on a VR6" bandwagon, when I can't seem to find a single post where someone put up dyno results before and after a header swap and lost power. Not to say it hasn't happened, but there's no proof out there to support it.
      And the only 2 dynos I happened to glance at today showed a 10whp and 12whp gain, respectively, with an S2 header and a modded Bosal Brospeed header.
      Quote Originally Posted by SGLoki View Post
      I believe rupaul is the tallest trans.

    11. 12-06-2010 09:41 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      I think that's quite the gigantic generalization...16V headers do quite a bit.

      Interesting to see that everyone hops on the "headers lose HP on a VR6" bandwagon, when I can't seem to find a single post where someone put up dyno results before and after a header swap and lost power. Not to say it hasn't happened, but there's no proof out there to support it.

      This is the vortex motto. If more then one person says its true, spread it around like its gospel. Don't worry about hard data, just heresay. Hence why these cars are in the dark age when it comes to non factory performance compared to other manufaturers.



      I have a header on my Daily. It is some knockoff, probably OBX, don't really care as it was free. All stainless construction, VERY good welds and finish. The "ball and socket" style collector it has is garbage though. Cutt it off and weld on a proper flex joint and it is a very good deal for the money.
      It is on a VERY mild build: cams, C2 cam chip, 2.5 inch back with only a resonator, intake, ported manifold and tb. It pulls very hard, but nothing amazing. Definitely feels MUCH more powerful then comparative VR's I've driven. Pulls cleanly to 7200, no "brick wall" like the stock VR's, definitely making peak power well before 7200 still though. They also increased the exhaust note considerably, but also made it more "tinny"

      Will be dynoing in the spring, just for entertainment. I have a set of ported stockers as well, but noway it would be worth it for me to swap them around. I can say, they definitely wouldn't be that high on my list of priorities on a mild VR though.

    12. Member URIN 2ND's Avatar
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      12-06-2010 12:09 PM #12
      Yep, I know what you're saying.

      I've personally seen 2 all-motor bolt-on 12V VR's making over 200whp, and neither of them were using the stock exhaust manifold.
      Quote Originally Posted by SGLoki View Post
      I believe rupaul is the tallest trans.

    13. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      12-06-2010 03:15 PM #13
      I'm one of 'those people' that has tested different headers personally, or knew other racers that tested them and was privvy to the results. I have posted this several times but it's probably lost in the noise here...

      My Mk2 VR6 - 2.9L/BVH/276s

      Genie Header - consistent 13.6 car
      Stock/Ported manifolds - consistent 13.4 car

      Joe's euro 2.9/race shop head/268s

      Brospeed vs same stock/ported as I used
      dont' remember times but no et change at all

      Dowd's Mk3 race car, still on stock intake manifold

      Brospeed vs stock/ported
      dont' remember times but no et change at all

      Billy's car stock 2.8/race shop head/268s

      Supersprint vs stock/ported
      dont' remember times but no et change at all

      We didn't dyno a lot then as track was easier/quicker to do but the cars were dead consistent at the track .. we were all racing/testing a TON.

      I do remember Turn2 had a $$ header in development that made a few hp on one car but it was too much to bother making more of.

      I think Evan had a good shot with his header, just needs more testing and optimization.

      I don't see any of the ebay knockoffs of the nicer headers doing any more then nothing, if not worse. I ported an ebay header and had almost 5 hrs into it just making it not suck.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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      12-06-2010 04:55 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Billy's car stock 2.8/race shop head/268s

      Supersprint vs stock/ported
      dont' remember times but no et change at all
      It was Supersprint vs. stock un-ported (I never ran ported stock!!!). The Supersprint made my car slower at the track, by a lot too. I do have time slips and would have to dig for the exact details (2003?!). IIRC, that header was just as bad as the old CAT 272 cams...

    15. Member URIN 2ND's Avatar
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      12-06-2010 07:07 PM #15
      Entirely too many variables at a drag strip to assume that because an old version of one company's header may have contributed to a marginally slower ET, that every set of headers available for a 12V VR6 decreases horsepower. Some people decide their religion on a more slippery slope than this, but I'm a bit of a skeptic and I like facts.
      Quote Originally Posted by SGLoki View Post
      I believe rupaul is the tallest trans.

    16. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 10:26 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      Entirely too many variables at a drag strip
      Bull****. These are cars that were run before/after the installation of these parts and were dead consistent (taking into account weather/density effect). I can make a dyno show whatever number I choose, change the power curve, etc the track is about the only thing that can't lie.
      -Paul
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      12-07-2010 10:54 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      I'm a bit of a skeptic and I like facts.
      I am all about facts too, and this is why I actually bought a header and tried it out for myself.

      Here is the thing, I have nothing to gain from posting this, I'm not pushing a product and back then I needed a header to actually perform and do something. To this day I would welcome a header that actually makes a car quicker and proven to make power.

      Both Mthis1 and Drader here on the Vortex ran on the dyno, one with Brospeed the other w/ a SS, and they saw an average gain in the area of 5-7 whp (don't quote me on that number). Their results were achieved with cams, exhaust, no head work (I think), and both cars had catalytic converters in place (we all used race pipes). These results both came from the same dyno, one that was tagged as being customer friendly, and there were months between the runs, not done back to back. So, after all of that I could never put much faith in those results.

    18. Member URIN 2ND's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 12:32 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Bull****. These are cars that were run before/after the installation of these parts and were dead consistent (taking into account weather/density effect). I can make a dyno show whatever number I choose, change the power curve, etc the track is about the only thing that can't lie.
      It's not the cars, necessarily...it's the drivers. Most Vortex users cannot come close to replicating the kind of consistency you see on ESPN by teams with millions of dollars behind them who are out racing year-round.

      Matter of fact, like Billy noted, people who take dynos for gospel are often mislead as well. Still, more often than not, it seems the headers either "don't do much of anything" or "add a little power but perhaps not enough to warrant the time or trouble".

      That's quite a bit different than "They will make you lose power." Just trying to debunk the "bandwagon" mentality that's all to prevalent on web forums.
      Quote Originally Posted by SGLoki View Post
      I believe rupaul is the tallest trans.

    19. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 08:55 PM #19
      Quite a bit of generalizing drivers huh? Believe me the cars/drivers above had enough passes to have good results.

      If you don't trust results, buy em all up and do some testing. I can tell you what the Genie/Supersprint/Brospeed and their ebay copies will show...

      The only header I'd even bother to run is one I design myself to actually work.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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      12-08-2010 12:58 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      Some people decide their religion on a more slippery slope than this, but I'm a bit of a skeptic and I like facts.
      lol

      pot meet kettle

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      12-08-2010 03:19 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Quite a bit of generalizing drivers huh? Believe me the cars/drivers above had enough passes to have good results.

      If you don't trust results, buy em all up and do some testing. I can tell you what the Genie/Supersprint/Brospeed and their ebay copies will show...

      The only header I'd even bother to run is one I design myself to actually work.
      i thought the s2 header was proven to make power..
      you wouldnt run that?

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      12-08-2010 10:30 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      It's not the cars, necessarily...it's the drivers. Most Vortex users cannot come close to replicating the kind of consistency you see on ESPN by teams with millions of dollars behind them who are out racing year-round.
      I kind of could though, and that's why I stand 110% behind everything I've ever said, posted and more importantly done back then.

      Now, people have seen that as being a 'know it all' over the years when the reality was just me being upfront, stating actual facts with results. You get backlash from those who just don't want to hear about it for one reason or another. Usually, it is from those who paid out $600-$1000 for something that does pretty much nothing aside from weighing 12 lbs. less. Sure, it's going to burn and chap some asses, but guess what? It burned me too, bad (I lost a race because of this!!!) and I think that fact gets lost in the wash.

      Just for the hell of it, here is a recent topic with some track results from years ago...
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post67119188

      Let's look at the variables that did change during that event:
      - 93 lbs. weight removed between runs 2 and 3
      - The track was re-sprayed between runs 3 and 4 (1st round eliminations)
      - The weather changed for all runs from morning to afternoon

      If you take all that into consideration and then look at the actual results there is just no way anyone could claim a lack of consistency; that's just one event too. If someone really wanted to poke holes at some .01 to .04 sec difference, by all means go right ahead, just keep in mind we're not talking about a car with an automatic transmission, stall converter, air shifter and a multi-stage throttle stop.

      None of the above is arrogance either so please don't take it that way. I knew this car inside and out, drove the hell out of it, and I honestly don't think anyone here really understood the extent and my approach on things with the car.
      Last edited by billyVR6; 12-08-2010 at 01:49 PM. Reason: spelling

    23. Member EuroSportChicago's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 12:55 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by URIN 2ND View Post
      I think that's quite the gigantic generalization...16V headers do quite a bit.

      Interesting to see that everyone hops on the "headers lose HP on a VR6" bandwagon, when I can't seem to find a single post where someone put up dyno results before and after a header swap and lost power. Not to say it hasn't happened, but there's no proof out there to support it.
      I didnt say they lose power, if your trying to make power your money will go farther elsewhere.

      12v VR6 forum ; )
      Quote Originally Posted by aphythiate View Post
      I don't understand what you said. I'm guessing you did a "dump'n'go" minus the go.
      Quote Originally Posted by RayMkIIIvdub View Post
      where are the muffler bearings and is that something i can change myself

    24. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 10:54 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by mk3pete View Post
      i thought the s2 header was proven to make power..
      you wouldnt run that?
      Good product, but not for any setup I'd run. Needs longer primaries and a size up on the primary diameter wouldn't hurt.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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