Buy and selling physical gold and silver

[nezraM]

What were you expecting? JPMC announcing that they manipulate the metals market and to stop doing it from now on? When you are the house, it doesn't matter what the gamblers do, you always win. I have been telling people to get out of metals for months because of this, but you keep telling them to dive in with no lifejacket.

You have been telling people BS. You absolutely have no f-ing clue what is being discussed here.

[TyrolSport]

We've had it (paper money) for about 400 years, we've had gold and silver coins for over 3000 years !! The printing of paper money only began when the gold and silver got too heavy to carry around !!

I am neither a gold bug or gold bear, but this quote got me thinking;

What do you mean when it became "too heavy to carry around"? Did the amount of gold required to purchase a specific item increase over time? If it wasn't too heavy to carry around for 2600 years, what changed at that point in time?

My thinking would lead me to believe that printing presses were not commonly available before the 1600s or so, which would have prevented paper money from being feasible. Again, just thinking aloud here, and curious as to what history/facts support the "too heavy to carry around" argument.

[a_riot]

I am neither a gold bug or gold bear, but this quote got me thinking;

What do you mean when it became "too heavy to carry around"? Did the amount of gold required to purchase a specific item increase over time? If it wasn't too heavy to carry around for 2600 years, what changed at that point in time?

My thinking would lead me to believe that printing presses were not commonly available before the 1600s or so, which would have prevented paper money from being feasible. Again, just thinking aloud here, and curious as to what history/facts support the "too heavy to carry around" argument.

I guess either gold has become heavier over the years, humans have been getting weaker, or we have serious gold inflation which would argue against gold's fiat inflation hedging abilities.

[NZTIGUAN]

OK, saying "too heavy" was an "off the lip" statement.

I assumed most people here would be well aware that "most" (I'm not going to state "all" as like everything I'm sure there are exceptions) paper money started life as "receipts" for precious "items" (not necessarily metals) held in the early "banks". This receipt was then of course tradable as it "repaid" the goods to the "bearer".

The point here is that it is now possible to print the receipt without having the goods in the first place. That's why current printed money has a negligible intrinsic value (since the gold standard was dropped).

[a_riot]

The point here is that it is now possible to print the receipt without having the goods in the first place. That's why current printed money has a negligible intrinsic value (since the gold standard was dropped).

What's golds intrinsic value? It is also negligible , so how would we be better off on a gold standard?

[nezraM]

US Mint reports 50% surge in silver bullion demand.

Dec 2010 sales: 1.77 million oz
Jan 2011: 3.4 million oz

2010 Average Monthly Demand: 2.88million oz.

As of today, it stands at 4.58 million oz of sales mtd. Breaks all previous year, 2010, month end figures.

http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/...ales&year=2011

[a_riot]

As of today, it stands at 4.58 million oz of sales mtd. Breaks all previous year, 2010, month end figures.

http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/...ales&year=2011

Yet the price of silver goes down.

[a_riot]

Silver's falling fast. Time to load up no?

[Fortunate4now]

Time to load up no?

Time to LOCK THIS THREAD!

[a_riot]

Time to LOCK THIS THREAD!

Why, because you disagree with the some of the comments? We aren't living in China, yet.

[a_riot]

You have been telling people BS. You absolutely have no f-ing clue what is being discussed here.

So please enlighten. Is it time to put our life savings into silver yet? Its down another ~2% just today.

[ab8349]

So please enlighten. Is it time to put our life savings into silver yet? Its down another ~2% just today.

Buy low, sell high, no?

[NZTIGUAN]

Buy low, sell high, no?

I prefer buy low (where possible) and HOLD.

[Gtiupb2002]

"The Constitution states that only gold and silver coin is legal tender in payment of debt"

"A system of paper fiat debt-money is destined to fail"

"Paper money is created out of thin air"

Why are you still arguing about "paper money". Paper money, is only as good as our government says, gold & silver is an acceptable payment world wide (our dollar is for now) and always will be. If you think PM's are worthless then dont buy them.

[a_riot]

"The Constitution states that only gold and silver coin is legal tender in payment of debt"

Great. I will send you a self addressed stamped envelope and you send me all your illegal FDRs. Sound like a plan? No point in having them cluttering up your wallet is there?

"A system of paper fiat debt-money is destined to fail"

Any system can be defrauded when dishonest people are in charge. Changing the token to a different material doesn't prevent this. I wish it could.

"Paper money is created out of thin air"

Major fail. Paper money is created out of cotton paper and ink, not air, thin or otherwise. Its value is created out of thin air, and the same applies to gold. Its value exists only in the imagination of those who purchase it.

Why are you still arguing about "paper money". Paper money, is only as good as our government says,

Gold is only as good as Wall St says it is. At least with the gov't they can be voted out if elections are honest.

gold & silver is an acceptable payment world wide (our dollar is for now) and always will be.

Interesting. So you pay your taxes in gold and silver do you? I live here in reality. Not sure where you live.

[mad8vskillz]

As I said "riot" it's NOT an investment it's a permanent hedge against inflation. Can you show me a single "investment" that guarantees it will be worth as much in REAL TERMS any time in the future, for ever ?? You're an idiot if you believe that any interesting bearing "account" is going to even keep up with inflation !!

uhm that's total BS spread by the gold marketing companies. there is no such hedge, and there is definitely no guarantee that it will be worth anything. There is also quite a bit of a challenge in selling it (ever try to sell physical gold or any other jewelry? you'll get 30% from the "cash for gold" people).

[a_riot]

uhm that's total BS spread by the gold marketing companies. there is no such hedge, and there is definitely no guarantee that it will be worth anything. There is also quite a bit of a challenge in selling it (ever try to sell physical gold or any other jewelry? you'll get 30% from the "cash for gold" people).

What do you mean? Are you saying there is no money-back guarantee when I buy gold? WFT?

[Gtiupb2002]

Great. I will send you a self addressed stamped envelope and you send me all your illegal FDRs. Sound like a plan? No point in having them cluttering up your wallet is there?Yes I will once the government deems it worthless, which at this rate will be soon



Any system can be defrauded when dishonest people are in charge. Changing the token to a different material doesn't prevent this. I wish it could.I will agree with you here, the only thing here is you can't make more gold but we can just keep printing money and the more they print the more useless it becomes.



Major fail. Paper money is created out of cotton paper and ink, not air, thin or otherwise. Its value is created out of thin air, and the same applies to gold. Its value exists only in the imagination of those who purchase it.Ok I guess we are getting lieteral, I understand how its made but thanks for the clarification. I guess people have imagined gold having value for thousands of years? Ok fine but it will continue to hold value in peoples imagination.



Gold is only as good as Wall St says it is. At least with the gov't they can be voted out if elections are honest.Yep let me know when our corrupt officials get voted out, I have a feeling elections aren't so honest either. Maybe wallstreet puts a price on gold, but either way it will always be viewed as a monetary symbol and once paper money is no longer I am willing to bet that gold will be the new money again and im sure silver will be right there with it



Interesting. So you pay your taxes in gold and silver do you? I live here in reality. Not sure where you live.Not yet but maybe someday, since our money is still good to be used according to the federal government.

uhm that's total BS spread by the gold marketing companies. there is no such hedge, and there is definitely no guarantee that it will be worth anything. There is also quite a bit of a challenge in selling it (ever try to sell physical gold or any other jewelry? you'll get 30% from the "cash for gold" people).

If you decide to sell your gold to "Cash for Gold" your a f***king idiot everyone knows they will give you only a fraction of what its worth. You dont believe that something such as gold which has been used for thousands of years is guaranteed to be worth something? Let me know when that happens.

[nezraM]

So please enlighten. Is it time to put our life savings into silver yet? Its down another ~2% just today.

I would. 2% down? Dang, I was hoping more like 50% with essentially no position limit imposed on JPMorgan Chase. Sounds like I will be buying more and I have been.

People like you told me silver was a bad investment when it was at $7/oz. Thank Goodness, I didn't listened to geniuses like you.

a_riot, seriously, you suck at giving finance advises on internet. Stick to your 12hr/day day job.

[mad8vskillz]

If you decide to sell your gold to "Cash for Gold" your a f***king idiot everyone knows they will give you only a fraction of what its worth. You dont believe that something such as gold which has been used for thousands of years is guaranteed to be worth something? Let me know when that happens.

please direct me to a gold coin or bullion buyer that will give me fair market pricing

[nezraM]

please direct me to a gold coin or bullion buyer that will give me fair market pricing

did you fail Economics 101? Your statement above is complete hogwash. Price Searcher, Price Discriminator & Price Taker. All three exist in any market. Even in black market.

Your bs comment above, framed in pseudo economics jargon(I say pseudo, because you fail to understand the basic definition) basically tells me you have absolutely NO IDEA how the precious metals market works or any market for that matter. It's not market's obligation to find you a buyer or a seller. It's your job!

[mad8vskillz]

did you fail Economics 101? Your statement above is complete hogwash. Price Searcher, Price Discriminator & Price Taker. All three exist in any market. Even in black market.

Your bs comment above, framed in pseudo economics jargon(I say pseudo, because you fail to understand the basic definition) basically tells me you have absolutely NO IDEA how the precious metals market works or any market for that matter. It's not market's obligation to find you a buyer or a seller. It's your job!

No, what you're doing is not answering the question. Instead of saying "here's a company that is interested in buying physical gold with prices paid near the market value," you're throwing a whole bunch of theory bs and some insults, thus actually proving my question as legitimate. You have no answer, do you?
So, oh brilliant economist, please enlighten us how i would go about finding a buyer for this gold? Is there some company that can help me? Or do i need to attend one of the "secret gold hoarding club" meetings with a briefcase chained to my wrist? How do i sell the physical gold that i have in my posession, within the next week or so, for something close to the $1330/oz like the market is?

[ab8349]

please direct me to a gold coin or bullion buyer that will give me fair market pricing

Apmex actively buys for just less than the spot price, minimum transaction of $1000.

Here.

[mad8vskillz]

Apmex actively buys for just less than the spot price, minimum transaction of $1000.

Here.

see there's a legit answer, instead of spouting off questionable gospel ab8349 suggested a buyer

[a_riot]

Yes I will once the government deems it worthless, which at this rate will be soon

Once the gov't deems its worthless? Won't ever happen.

I will agree with you here, the only thing here is you can't make more gold but we can just keep printing money and the more they print the more useless it becomes.

Don't need to make more gold. You will take your gold to a bank vault to store and protect it and they will give you a gold IOU which you will then use to spend on things you need. The bank will lend out your gold to worthy borrowers at interest by giving them gold IOUs. Of course, before long they will lend out more gold IOUs than there is gold in the vault and the whole thing starts all over again. Without an honest money supply, the material that you use to store value is irrelevant.

I guess people have imagined gold having value for thousands of years? Ok fine but it will continue to hold value in peoples imagination.

The important question is how much value? Only 10 years ago gold's value was 1/5 of today's value. Nobody wanted the ruddy metal. You could buy it for less than it cost to mine and process. If you are buying a lot of gold right now you better hope people's imagination values it higher later on and doesn't fall back to what it was only 10 years ago, or you will have lost 80% of your net worth.

Maybe wallstreet puts a price on gold, but either way it will always be viewed as a monetary symbol and once paper money is no longer I am willing to bet that gold will be the new money again and im sure silver will be right there with it

I'm not even sure what that means. Gold will be viewed as a monetary symbol? No, it will be viewed as a commodity like its always been and its value will depend on people's imagination as you stated above.

Even if gold turns out to be the next material used as money, gold will simply be the next fiat currency and controlled by the gov't so what difference does it make? You are then back where you started.

[GeoffD]

Now that the price of gold and silver extended their year-to-date declines to 6.3% and 13.5%, respectively, what I think will happen is that gold will bounce around in this range for a while, until interest rates are increased which is now looking like a distinct possibility soon. Once that happens, the price of gold will start to collapse and the speculators will be shorting it all the way back down to its mean price. Joe Q Public, convinced that gold came with a guarantee by geniuses like you, will get caught in the long squeeze hastening its fall back to earth. Btw, I got a raise to $12.50/hr.

Wow! a_riot wrote something I agree with. ...and it's not 2012 yet.

I don't see much difference between the real estate bubble and the gold & silver bubble. You can make lots of money if you have the good fortune of timing the cycle. It's ugly if you are the last person in and the bubble bursts. In the long term, real assets more or less track the core inflation rate. In the long term, you do better investing in well-managed corporations where the company is growing at least as fast as the economy is growing.

[winstonsmith84]

please direct me to a gold coin or bullion buyer that will give me fair market pricing

The buyer I used for my silver hoard paid spot minus $0.15 per troy oz minus $0.35 troy oz assay fee up to $35, then $.10 per oz there after. This was about 5 years ago when silver was $5 something. I brought in BUCKETS full of scrap silver. Had I been smart? I would have traded that for gold coin. ( hovering at $300 at that point) Then sold the gold several years later and bought Ford stock. Then.....

[bingbongplop3]

this picture reminds me of someone on this thread...


anyways I have been looking into buying/investing into silver or a "PM" of some sort.
I understand and agree the price of silver and gold undoubtedly will go up in time(sure it goes up n down) but I understand it has a general rise

Can someone break it down for me as for when to buy?

I know "selling" isnt really advisable but, where do you sell it once you think its time or have an emergency?

I wish I could get into the gold market but, me like almost everyone else dont have the $ for that. anyways is this investment supposed to pay off in your life-time?

I'm not in for it for the post-apocalyptic as much as I am retirement sort of thing.

[Fortunate4now]

instead of spouting off questionable gospel ab8349 suggested a buyer

ever heard of ebay?

[nezraM]

what I think will happen is that gold will bounce around in this range for a while, until interest rates are increased which is now looking like a distinct possibility soon. Once that happens, the price of gold will start to collapse and the speculators will be shorting it all the way back down to its mean price. Joe Q Public, convinced that gold came with a guarantee by geniuses like you, will get caught in the long squeeze hastening its fall back to earth. Btw, I got a raise to $12.50/hr.

With that forecast you just buried your credibility here once again Mr. Derivative.

Volker would've raised the rate before he quit advising bunch of Goldmanites in WH if it was possible. You are absolutely clueless as to why now FED is on QE2, aka operation "Negative Real Interest Rate"

Distinct Possibility Soon, did you say? I will bring the post of yours above time and time again just to prove how utterly clueless you are.

US have chosen Hyperinflation over Real Interest Rate hike simply for the fact that any rise in real interest rate will threaten the government's ability to service it's debt. Whereas printing money silently taxes population. And you believe the real interest rate will rise? Soon? Distinct possibility? ROFLMAO Ummm......$15 trillion dollars soon dude!. Can you tell the board what is mere 4% interest on $15trillion is?

Genius! Seriously. Stick to your day job.

[a_riot]

With that forecast you just buried your credibility here once again Mr. Derivative.

Volker would've raised the rate before he quit advising bunch of Goldmanites in WH if it was possible. You are absolutely clueless as to why now FED is on QE2, aka operation "Negative Real Interest Rate"

Distinct Possibility Soon, did you say? I will bring the post of yours above time and time again just to prove how utterly clueless you are.

Thanks again for your compliments, you are far too generous with them. However, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the Fed sets interest rates. I can understand this, as this is what you have been led to believe by the media. But its actually the market itself that sets rates not the Fed. The Fed follows the market, they have no choice. Watch the 3 month start to climb over the next couple of months and watch Bernanke have to respond in kind.

US have chosen Hyperinflation over Real Interest Rate hike simply for the fact that any rise in real interest rate will threaten the government's ability to service it's debt. Whereas printing money silently taxes population. And you believe the real interest rate will rise? Soon? Distinct possibility? ROFLMAO Ummm......$15 trillion dollars soon dude!. Can you tell the board what is mere 4% interest on $15trillion is?

Now here you've gone and contradicted yourself again. According to you, rates won't rise since that would theaten servicing the debt. What you have forgotten is that the debt is serviced in US currency. If interest rates rise, and the debt gets more expensive, they will pay for it in USD which is always available since they can just print more, as you so often mention over and over, ad nauseum. See how it works? Pretty clever really.

[nezraM]

Now here you've gone and contradicted yourself again. According to you, rates won't rise since that would theaten servicing the debt. What you have forgotten is that the debt is serviced in US currency. If interest rates rise, and the debt gets more expensive, they will pay for it in USD which is always available since they can just print more, as you so often mention over and over, ad nauseum. See how it works? Pretty clever really.

NO, I have been very clear here. Real interest rate has been stuck at zero/negative for many years now. They can't raise it simply because, excluding all social entitlement obligation, interest payment alone on national debt will wipe out all federal income tax collected then some. What you are describing is theoretical. Name me a single incident in history where a country in brink of currency collapse chose to raise rate then print the %@#* out of their currency. NONE. The debt will be serviced through hyperinflation. That is the only way. And debasement of Dollar is what is certain. Now, nuff schooling you over this subject. Please stick to your day job. I get that you kinda got the whole world figured out with your brain that earns $12.5/hr. Nothing but respect to you in that regards but do not pretend to know something you absolutely have no idea of. It stinks.

Back to main subject, silver and gold. US Mint sold absolute record amnt of silver eagles in Jan 2011

http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/...ales&year=2011

[a_riot]

NO, I have been very clear here. Real interest rate has been stuck at zero/negative for many years now. They can't raise it simply because, excluding all social entitlement obligation, interest payment alone on national debt will wipe out all federal income tax collected then some. What you are describing is theoretical. Name me a single incident in history where a country in brink of currency collapse chose to raise rate then print the %@#* out of their currency. NONE. The debt will be serviced through hyperinflation. That is the only way. And debasement of Dollar is what is certain. Now, nuff schooling you over this subject. Please stick to your day job. I get that you kinda got the whole world figured out with your brain that earns $12.5/hr. Nothing but respect to you in that regards but do not pretend to know something you absolutely have no idea of. It stinks.

Thanks again for all the accolades, its really quite flattering.

In regards to your comment about interest rates and currency, there is a very well known correlation that perhaps you've never been made aware of between the value of a country's currency and interest rates. You see, as investment confidence in a country falls the risk of investing in that country goes up. If an investor will lose a percentage of their investment simply due to currency devaluation, then they will want a higher interest rate to compensate. Its quite simple really. So as the USD falls, rates will have to increase to prevent an exodus of money leaving the country which would be bad for the economy on many levels. I don't follow why you keep saying "They can't raise it" if by "they" you mean the Fed since the Fed adjusts rates according to what the market is doing not the other way around. If the market demands higher rates in exchange for increased risk, the Fed won't have much of a choice. They hope this doesn't happen as it will destroy US housing prices further, leading to more bank failures, and they can try to prop up the stock market to spur investment, but eventually if confidence wanes, rates will have to go up and probably quite quickly. At that point, your precious metals will become semi-precious at best.

Back to main subject, silver and gold. US Mint sold absolute record amnt of silver eagles in Jan 2011

Yes and the price of silver has done nothing but go down. What does this tell you? It tells me its the dumb money doing all the buying.

[GeoffD]

US have chosen Hyperinflation over Real Interest Rate hike simply for the fact that any rise in real interest rate will threaten the government's ability to service it's debt. Whereas printing money silently taxes population.

The problem is that the US debt is mostly short-term. The average maturity of sovereign debt is about 3 years. Hyperinflation won't do much to erode the debt because it will soon mature and be re-issued at much higher interest rates. If there is hyperinflation, the US won't be able to borrow money at low interest rates. The bonds/notes at an artificially low interest rate would sell at a steep discount at auction to account for the inflation rate. The market dictates interest rates, not the federal government.

Because of that, I don't think we're in for hyperinflation. I think we're in for a more subdued single digit inflation. 5% to 6% inflation over a decade will fix the housing problem and erode wages of the middle class to make them competitive on the world market.

[nezraM]

The problem is that the US debt is mostly short-term. The average maturity of sovereign debt is about 3 years. Hyperinflation won't do much to erode the debt because it will soon mature and be re-issued at much higher interest rates. If there is hyperinflation, the US won't be able to borrow money at low interest rates. The bonds/notes at an artificially low interest rate would sell at a steep discount at auction to account for the inflation rate. The market dictates interest rates, not the federal government.

Because of that, I don't think we're in for hyperinflation. I think we're in for a more subdued single digit inflation. 5% to 6% inflation over a decade will fix the housing problem and erode wages of the middle class to make them competitive on the world market.

I want one thing clear. I don't think neither you or a_riot understand the difference between real interest rate and nominal interest rate. Above I referred to real interest rate which is expressed in simple formula;

ri = ni-ir it says Real Interest Rate is equal to Nominal Interest Rate minus Inflation Rate

ir= [CPI(this year) – CPI(last year)] / CPI(last year)]

Guess where our real interest rate will be even if the rate is to go up as inflation accelerates?
Anyone who wants to understand the real inflation rate, I suggest that you visit http://www.shadowstats.com/