Buy and selling physical gold and silver

[a_riot]

I want one thing clear. I don't think neither you or a_riot understand the difference between real interest rate and nominal interest rate.

Why, because it was such a difficult concept for you to wrap your head around?

I suggest that you visit www.shadowstats.com

Ahh, shadowstats. That certainly explains a lot.

[nezraM]

yap yap yap yap....I know nothing yap yap yap

aren't you so honest!?


Anywho~ Silver broke out like gang buster today silencing all the bears and naysayers. I hate to say this to all of you again. If you do not own physical silver or gold, in the near future you will be very sorry. In fact, good luck locating physical bullion now. Thanks to HSBC and JPMorgan Chase, silver has been selling at bargain basement price and stress on physical market is astonishing. Local coinshow was wiped out when a gentlemen walked in with 50k in cash and walked out with all bullion coins and bars. That is how tight the physical market is. Don't let EFT market cap fool you. GET PHYSICAL NOW!

[bingbongplop3]

aren't you so honest!?


Anywho~ Silver broke out like gang buster today silencing all the bears and naysayers. I hate to say this to all of you again. If you do not own physical silver or gold, in the near future you will be very sorry. In fact, good luck locating physical bullion now. Thanks to HSBC and JPMorgan Chase, silver has been selling at bargain basement price and stress on physical market is astonishing. Local coinshow was wiped out when a gentlemen walked in with 50k in cash and walked out with all bullion coins and bars. That is how tight the physical market is. Don't let EFT market cap fool you. GET PHYSICAL NOW!

wow

[a_riot]

GET PHYSICAL NOW!

Let's get physical, physical,
I wanna get physical, let's get into physical
Let me hear your body talk,
Your body talk, let me hear your body talk

What's the cost to mine silver these days? $3.50 oz? That's some nice margin!

[GoFaster]

How about gold mining companies that are based outside the USA? We've been through a correction in precious metals in the last few weeks, but I think we are through it.

[NZTIGUAN]

How about gold mining companies that are based outside the USA? We've been through a correction in precious metals in the last few weeks, but I think we are through it.

Shares in pm mining companies in general is another way of spreading risk. Problem is (versus holding the pm in your hand) that you're once again at the mercy of others. If anything goes wrong (and that can happen to ANY company regardless of size) then you're stuffed, whereas having the physical product in your hand means you have greater control. You're still subject to the vagaries of the market BUT if you're simply "holding" pms as long term protection rather than as an "investment" then the "market" only concerns you when you buy. I think the thing is to NOT hold pms as an investment, particularly a short term investment, but rather as a long term hedge against the potential of the dollar (or any other currency really) depreciating markedly, which a number of commentators suggest is a distinct possibility.

Cheers

[GoFaster]

Shares in pm mining companies in general is another way of spreading risk. Problem is (versus holding the pm in your hand) that you're once again at the mercy of others. If anything goes wrong (and that can happen to ANY company regardless of size) then you're stuffed, whereas having the physical product in your hand means you have greater control. You're still subject to the vagaries of the market BUT if you're simply "holding" pms as long term protection rather than as an "investment" then the "market" only concerns you when you buy. I think the thing is to NOT hold pms as an investment, particularly a short term investment, but rather as a long term hedge against the potential of the dollar (or any other currency really) depreciating markedly, which a number of commentators suggest is a distinct possibility.

Cheers

Problem is that it doesn't earn anything. It doesn't pay dividends, and I can't write call options against it. I can (and do) earn dividends from, and write call options against, mining stocks! Physical gold is essentially "dead money" other than the change in price of the commodity, with a cost associated with buying and selling it, and storing it.

I realize that the history of mining stocks has been one of slower growth than the commodity itself, but with dividends and a bit of active management thrown in, it enhances the long-term return quite a bit and the storage and in/out costs detract from the growth of the commodity itself, from the individual investor's point of view.

There are pluses and minuses to every investment strategy and it's best to use more than one.

I am one of the skeptics about the long term health of the US$ ... which is why I don't own any US stocks and no government bonds!

[NZTIGUAN]

I get your drift GoFaster and basically agree with you. That's the point I was trying to make, physical pms are NOT an investment vehicle and that's where (IMO) many go wrong. They just want to buy and sell it as they did with houses etc etc etc.

IMO "physical" pms are a "hold" item that's real purpose is as a last line of defense against currency failure (I don't necessarily mean the TOTAL failure of currency because in that case only food and bullets will have much value for a long time to come, though pms will (IMO) come through as an excellent store of wealth long term anyway) but more a hyperinflation situation that will (IMO) lead to a massive increase in pms value (against currency).

So, if you're looking for short term investments and immediate returns on your money, then physical pms (or any other commodity for that matter) are of no value to you. As long as you're aware (as I'm sure you are) that stocks and shares are far from being a "safe" investment in the current economic climate !!

Cheers

[a_riot]

IMO "physical" pms are a "hold" item that's real purpose is as a last line of defense against currency failure (I don't necessarily mean the TOTAL failure of currency because in that case only food and bullets will have much value for a long time to come, though pms will (IMO) come through as an excellent store of wealth long term anyway) but more a hyperinflation situation that will (IMO) lead to a massive increase in pms value (against currency).

Putting a bunch of money into a dead asset is financially nonsensical. You might as well buy something useful like vintage guitars, or stamps so you can at least get some enjoyment out of your money. I think the only reason PMs are so expensive right now is becaue the Fed is buying them surreptiously with created money, for the purpose of dumping them, crashing the market and putting a quick end to anyone thinking they can create an alternate money system to compete with the Fed. Until you can pay your taxes in gold, its just another overpriced lump of metal with few useful purposes and no intrinsic value.

[nezraM]

Putting a bunch of money into a dead asset is financially nonsensical. You might as well buy something useful like vintage guitars, or stamps so you can at least get some enjoyment out of your money. I think the only reason PMs are so expensive right now is becaue the Fed is buying them surreptiously with created money, for the purpose of dumping them, crashing the market and putting a quick end to anyone thinking they can create an alternate money system to compete with the Fed. Until you can pay your taxes in gold, its just another overpriced lump of metal with few useful purposes and no intrinsic value.

Hush you FRAUD!

[NZTIGUAN]

Quack quack quack quack

Yeah whatever

[nezraM]

"Houston, we have a problem!"



from zerohedge.com

[nezraM]

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/sil...es-rise-broad-

While the equity market resumed its now traditional (for the past 6 months) smooth levitation, with little to no volatility and even less volume, the most interesting asset class was silver, which after dropping to under $32 yesterday, following the various attempts by the administration to kill assorted commodities, rose by 4% today, closing at the day's highs and wiped out the entire loss from yesterday. Ironically, this happened even as general collateral rates rose today. "The reason for the rise is an increase in the volume of Treasury securities available to be used in the repo market as general collateral. The Treasury Department on Friday settled an issue of $25 billion in 49-day cash management bills, and the $99 billion in new notes it auctioned this week will settle on Monday." Of course, this was offset by another 56-Day CMB offsetting the winding down SFP (total SFP holdings are now cut in half to just $100 billion). So despite a major liquidity extraction from the market, not only did stocks rise (which can traditionally be attributed to POMO in a low volume environment), but the biggest beneficiary was silver, meaning that even in a tight liquidity regime, most investors now prefer to pursue commodities as an investment class, something which had not happened previously.

[GeoffD]

I want one thing clear. I don't think neither you or a_riot understand the difference between real interest rate and nominal interest rate.

I realize this is tough for you since it is counter to what you write over and over and over.... Try to pay attention....

If I borrow, say, 5 trillion dollars with 30 year notes at 4% interest and then spike inflation rates up to 18%, my real interest rate is -14%. If I have a decade of inflation, that debt will be inflated down to next to nothing. That is what happened post-Vietnam war. It wasn't until a couple of years into Ronnie's first presidency that inflation rates dropped back to more 'normal' single digit levels.

The problem is that the federal government has mostly been borrowing money short term. The average term is less than 3 years. You don't get the same benefit because nobody will lend money to the federal government at real negative interest rates. That $5 trillion will get rolled over into $5 trillion worth of notes that pay 19% and have a positive real return.

Because of this, we are not going to have hyperinflation. It does no good since it just creates almost immediate massive interest payments to keep real returns positive. Instead, we will most likely see moderate inflation.... probably higher single digits. This won't do anything for the debt but it will fix the real estate bubble problem in a half-dozen years and erode middle class wages for people who are paid well above world market rates. For a lot of people, they will experience a very real decline in standard of living. I figure 1/3 of the US middle class population will end up taking a 25% hit in real standard of living. If you're not productive on the world scale, your job either vaporizes to Asia or you don't see raises that track the inflation rate.

[livingVoice]

I realize this is tough for you since it is counter to what you write over and over and over.... Try to pay attention....

If I borrow, say, 5 trillion dollars with 30 year notes at 4% interest and then spike inflation rates up to 18%, my real interest rate is -14%. If I have a decade of inflation, that debt will be inflated down to next to nothing. That is what happened post-Vietnam war. It wasn't until a couple of years into Ronnie's first presidency that inflation rates dropped back to more 'normal' single digit levels.

The problem is that the federal government has mostly been borrowing money short term. The average term is less than 3 years. You don't get the same benefit because nobody will lend money to the federal government at real negative interest rates. That $5 trillion will get rolled over into $5 trillion worth of notes that pay 19% and have a positive real return.

Because of this, we are not going to have hyperinflation. It does no good since it just creates almost immediate massive interest payments to keep real returns positive. Instead, we will most likely see moderate inflation.... probably higher single digits. This won't do anything for the debt but it will fix the real estate bubble problem in a half-dozen years and erode middle class wages for people who are paid well above world market rates. For a lot of people, they will experience a very real decline in standard of living. I figure 1/3 of the US middle class population will end up taking a 25% hit in real standard of living. If you're not productive on the world scale, your job either vaporizes to Asia or you don't see raises that track the inflation rate.

What if the Fed's been actually buying most of the bonds? It's not like the Fed cares if the government can pay it back. Governments around the world basically playing the same game with fiat currency. As a private investor, it's not like you can buy bonds from another planets :-). Pretty much pick the lesser poison. I think that's why commodities have risen so much since that's where most investors money have gone into. I don't know what is the definition of "hyperinflation" but the way commodity prices have gone up, that's a lot of inflation. I've seen a stat that shows food prices in some part of the emerging world have gone up 1/3 year over year. Gas price here is pretty scary too. When you lower the interest rate to zero, investors will just speculate on commodities which I think I have been saying all along. You blame high commodity price on speculation well the speculators blame it on low interest rate.

[nezraM]

If I borrow, say, 5 trillion dollars with 30 year notes at 4% interest and then spike inflation rates up to 18%, my real interest rate is -14%. If I have a decade of inflation, that debt will be inflated down to next to nothing. That is what happened post-Vietnam war. It wasn't until a couple of years into Ronnie's first presidency that inflation rates dropped back to more 'normal' single digit levels.

Nice try. but that is where your hypothesis ends. Reality is starkly different this time around.
You are crazy to think that US will be able to raise interest rate anywhere close to 18% in order to curb rampant inflation. We've already established this. National debt level then was fraction of today although Debt to GDP was similar. Also, US was producer nation. Paul Volker just quit advising bunch of Goldmanites. The same Fed cheif who helped Ronald Reagan couldn't do sheit this time and he knew it. NO SAME OUTCOME AWAITS for US this time around Mr. Wake up and smell the coffee!

[GeoffD]

Nice try. but that is where your hypothesis ends. Reality is starkly different this time around.
You are crazy to think that US will be able to raise interest rate anywhere close to 18% in order to curb rampant inflation. We've already established this. National debt level then was fraction of today although Debt to GDP was similar. Also, US was producer nation. Paul Volker just quit advising bunch of Goldmanites. The same Fed cheif who helped Ronald Reagan couldn't do sheit this time and he knew it. NO SAME OUTCOME AWAITS for US this time around Mr. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Reading Comprehension > nezraM

I specifically said that the US will not have hyperinflation and that interest rates won't hit anything like 18%.

[nezraM]

Reading Comprehension > nezraM

I specifically said that the US will not have hyperinflation and that interest rates won't hit anything like 18%.

US will have hyperinflation BECAUSE US can't raise interest rate to 18% this time around. Get it?

[a_riot]

US will have hyperinflation BECAUSE US can't raise interest rate to 18% this time around. Get it?

How could anyone 'get it' from this post? You have no argument why the fed can't raise rates so there is nothing to 'get'.

We won't have hyperinflation but its not because the fed can't raise the fed rate because they certainly can. What do you think tanked the housing market? The prime rate doubled between 2004 and 2008 pushing ARM rates up just in time for a reset pushing many homeowners to foreclosure. They would raise the rate if the economy was heating up and pushing up wages but since its not they won't. This is now having the effect of creating the current commodity bubble. I guess we will never learn. Speculating in commodities now is like speculating in housing in early 2007 and when interest rates go up, margins are reduced, they implement serious commodity limits or likely all three at once, it will all come crashing down and much wailing and gnashing of teeth will commence. Its similar to a side show where it doesn't matter that we know its all a fraud, we still pay the 50 cents to see the world's hairiest woman.

[VR6ix]

On a long enough time line... BTFD???

[TyrolSport]

Looks similar to a housing pricing chart from 2002-2007.

[a_riot]

Looks similar to a housing pricing chart from 2002-2007.

No, this time its different. Just ask nezraM.

[livingVoice]

No, this time its different.

ssshh!!

[nezraM]

Looks similar to a housing pricing chart from 2002-2007.

Perhaps, but the similarity ends as soon as you look at the fundamentals. Needless to say, not everyone owns silver. In fact, physical silver market represents fraction of investment market in general. Housing market was driven up by easy monetary policy and equally scandalous lending practices where as silver market is being flocked by a few and informed/concerned investors seeking tangible assets. General public are net sellers of precious metals.

When you consider several but not all facts presented here and some you can find on your own, you will realize that silver bull run, at least for now, is not the same kind of run up as housing market throughout much of early to mid 2000. no mania phase yet.

I have been buying silver since it was in low teens. I've looked at every factors up and down twice then some. The answer is simple. You can't afford to ignore silver. It is where you want at least fraction of your asset to be at. Personally, I am all in. Call me crazy. But I have been pretty happy camper chasing silver. All the wile, looking at national debt clock makes me that much assure that I've made the right choice.

Show me sound money policy. Show me responsible government spending and deficit reduction plan. Show me strict immigration control and entitlement policies. Show me real positive interest rate that awards savers thus in turn fuels capital investments. Show me all this then I may say it is time to sell silver or gold and buy paper assets including US Bonds.

Until then, call me your resident Silver Bug!

[a_riot]

Needless to say, not everyone owns silver. In fact, physical silver market represents fraction of investment market in general.

Precisely. No one owns silver except for a tiny fraction of investors making it extremely vulnerable to manipulation and highly volatile. Got some extra income to gamble, buy silver. Looking for long term security, look elsewhere.

Show me sound money policy. Show me responsible government spending and deficit reduction plan. Show me strict immigration control and entitlement policies. Show me real positive interest rate that awards savers thus in turn fuels capital investments.

We never had any of these things when silver was $5/oz. The cost to mine silver has been relatively stable as well. This is like what Beng and others were telling me about oil when it was over $125 a barrel. Remember all the demand from China and India that apparently disappeared all of a sudden when oil plunged back to $30 from $125 in 5 months? There are no fundamentals to support buying silver unless real industrial demand goes up. Buying it just because everyone else is buying it is simply pariticpating in a ponzi scheme like real estate was. You can make good money as long as you aren't holding any when the ptb lift the needle off the record.

[nezraM]

Precisely. No one owns silver except for a tiny fraction of investors making it extremely vulnerable to manipulation and highly volatile. Got some extra income to gamble, buy silver. Looking for long term security, look elsewhere.

These investors represents some of the smartest and wealthiest individuals such as Eric Sprott and James Turk. Oh did I mention Warren Buffet? By purchasing Mellon, Trustee of SLV, he now owns 75%+ of assets thus by the prospectus written, The Oracle of Omaha has his hands in Physical Silver, however many oz it might be. Please dig in deeper a_riot. Your effort is cute but futile.

Long term security? Please name a few for me. I've seen it all tell me. Don't be so vague here a_riot. You are so convinced that silver and gold isn't the place for your wealth. Then tell us where you personally stash your hard earned money for the long term security. Where is elsewhere?

We never had any of these things when silver was $5/oz. The cost to mine silver has been relatively stable as well. This is like what Beng and others were telling me about oil when it was over $125 a barrel. Remember all the demand from China and India that apparently disappeared all of a sudden when oil plunged back to $30 from $125 in 5 months?

Do you actually know what you are talking about? Never had what when silver was at $5? So now that we have silver price rising due to presence of all aforementioned issues? Then you are essentially agreeing with me? Then you go off tangent about oil? WTF. Keep your day job kid. Seriously.

There are no fundamentals to support buying silver unless real industrial demand goes up. Buying it just because everyone else is buying it is simply pariticpating in a ponzi scheme like real estate was. You can make good money as long as you aren't holding any when the ptb lift the needle off the record.

You are a complete shill. No fundamentals to support buying silver? Unless real industrial demand goes up? Industrial demand has been going up steady. Investment demand is WAY UP due to the fact that Silver just like Gold is MONEY! and legitimate currency which competes against fiat currency. And why is Silver or Gold going up in record priced in fiat currency? Well duh! Guess what is falling fast in value? If you don't get this then you are brain dead. Don't come here trying to argue facts with your doubts. So far, not a single reply from you on this thread and others makes any coherent sense at all. If you don't understand? that's fine. But it isn't fine when you pretend to know wtf you are talking about, especially when you are clueless.

Come on! where is elsewhere? You better be precise.

[a_riot]

The Oracle of Omaha has his hands in Physical Silver, however many oz it might be. Please dig in deeper a_riot. Your effort is cute but futile.

Yes and the Oracle also bought Dexter Shoes. You pick the insider of all insiders to make your case? You just made mine.

Long term security? Please name a few for me.

I bought a blankie.

Do you actually know what you are talking about? Never had what when silver was at $5? So now that we have silver price rising due to presence of all aforementioned issues? Then you are essentially agreeing with me? Then you go off tangent about oil? WTF. Keep your day job kid. Seriously.

Your feigned misunderstanding of my posts is tiresome. If you want to participate in the SLV ponzi that's your business, go ahead, I'm not trying to stop you. You are playing in dangerous waters with sharks as you so aptly stated above. Don't be mad if I don't join you.

Industrial demand has been going up steady.

So the economy must be picking up then. Which means interest rates will likely rise and put the kibosh on PM speculation. Is that your argument?

Investment demand is WAY UP due to the fact that Silver just like Gold is MONEY! and legitimate currency which competes against fiat currency. And why is Silver or Gold going up in record priced in fiat currency?

Gold isn't money, gold is gold and money is money. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it still won't be true. You are mixing up two assets and call me a noob? Its like when people say 'time is money'. No it isn't. Time and money are two completely different things and conflating them is silly.

From Wiki: "Money is any object or record, that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context." Its illegal in the US to use gold as money, just check with the IRS, they'll tell you. Send them your gold to pay your taxes and they'll send an agent over to sort it out for you right quick.

You keep making my point for me. If investment demand is WAY UP, then the PM bulls are already, like you, all-in, hoping for greater fools to buy at an even more insane level. Not a great time to invest. I bought palladium after it crashed and no one wanted it and you couldn't give it away, and oil when it was $35/barrel. That's the time to buy commodities. Have you looked at a chart of silver prices lately? It looks like a disaster just waiting to happen. Its exponential. We all know what happens when we see an exponential chart don't we? Tears always follow. What's so egregious about this time is that the banks already fleeced everyone by cranking up home values with all their loose credit, and now are doing the same thing with commodities luring in the unsuspecting fools looking for a guaranteed investment after losing half their wealth. I don't think that even I am cynical enough to think this is funny any more. Well maybe a bit funny.

[nezraM]

I bought a blankie.

folks. Do we need any further proof that a_riot is a shill? IDFTS.

[nezraM]

From Wiki: "Money is any object or record, that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context." Its illegal in the US to use gold as money, just check with the IRS, they'll tell you. Send them your gold to pay your taxes and they'll send an agent over to sort it out for you right quick.

You fail yet again. But this paragraph of yours says it all. I've said it before. You are an intellectual fraud. Shill who argues for the sake of argument based on NOTHING and will use every dirty little dirty tricks to make his baseless point appeared logical and factual.

Do I think you are a noob? I know you are a noob. a_riot, Rest of your writings are same. Incomplete, incoherent and confused.You think I spend my precious time arguing with you in order to convince you? FK NO, You are confusing unsuspected people who are looking for genuine information. I will call your BS. Try harder but you will fail because you are a fraud.

a_riot, you left some important part of the definition of money from wiki. You NOOB!

]Money is any object or record, that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context.[1][2][3] The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally, a standard of deferred payment.[4][5] Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can serve as money.

Money originated as commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money.[4] Fiat money is without intrinsic use value as a physical commodity, and derives its value by being declared by a government to be legal tender; that is, it must be accepted as a form of payment within the boundaries of the country, for "all debts, public and private".

IRS accepts paper money because it has been declared as acceptable currency of payment of debt by the government thus FIAT! But this does not take away the historical and current fact of Gold and Silver being money. YOU NOOB!

[GeoffD]

You fail yet again. But this paragraph of yours says it all. I've said it before. You are an intellectual fraud. Shill who argues for the sake of argument based on NOTHING and will use every dirty little dirty tricks to make his baseless point appeared logical and factual.

Do I think you are a noob? I know you are a noob. a_riot, Rest of your writings are same. Incomplete, incoherent and confused.You think I spend my precious time arguing with you in order to convince you? FK NO, You are confusing unsuspected people who are looking for genuine information. I will call your BS. Try harder but you will fail because you are a fraud.

nezraM: Just because somebody's arguments are incomplete, incoherent, and confused doesn't mean they are a noob. It just means their arguments are incomplete, incoherent, and confused.

Gold and silver are commodities. If you happen to have inside information to reliably sell commodities low and sell them high, you can make a lot of money. There is no data out there that leads me to believe that the US dollar price of silver is sustainable. At some point, it's highly likely that silver will rapidly correct downwards. The smart money will have gotten out but a lot of "The World Is Ending" people are going to get hit hard.

If the US dollar collapses to the point where it is worthless, most of us will have far bigger problems that a few hudred thousand in precious metals isn't going to fix. You have declared any number of times that it's going to happen. I don't believe it.

[nezraM]

If the US dollar collapses to the point where it is worthless, most of us will have far bigger problems that a few hudred thousand in precious metals isn't going to fix. You have declared any number of times that it's going to happen. I don't believe it.

GeoffD, Mr. 70s. You are little better than a_riot. Experienced. But that is your weakness. You are still stuck in the past. US is no longer #1. Dollar is no longer dominant currency no on it's way to miraculous recovery of it's loss value. The way I see it, it's literally a toilet paper. It even rolls fast towards the end. Ask Russia and China. Shoot. Damn commies, what do they know.

[livingVoice]

GeoffD, Mr. 70s.

Do you know that for a fact?

[GeoffD]

GeoffD, Mr. 70s. You are little better than a_riot. Experienced. But that is your weakness. You are still stuck in the past. US is no longer #1. Dollar is no longer dominant currency no on it's way to miraculous recovery of it's loss value. The way I see it, it's literally a toilet paper. It even rolls fast towards the end. Ask Russia and China. Shoot. Damn commies, what do they know.

So tell us what is the world's dominant currency? The US economy is 3x the size of China. You're not suggesting the Yuan, are you?

You crap all over the Euro. If you kick the PIIGS out of the Euro zone, the Euro zone is only half the GDP of the US. The US and the EU have comparable sized economies. The difference is that the US has strong federal control. I think you are guilty of doing linear interpolation of trend data and ignore the fact that US government action can change that trend overnight.

All I ever hear from you is "the sky is falling". You've been predicting the end of the world for years.

[nezraM]

So tell us what is the world's dominant currency? The US economy is 3x the size of China. You're not suggesting the Yuan, are you?

In fact, I am. And you can dig in previous page somewhere of me calling Yuan being the strongest contender to achieve next reserve currency status.

Since when GDP alone determines strength of economy? Especially when over 70% of that economy is based on consumption? and the country is in debt which is mathematically and practically impossible to pay back? That is like saying a doctor who makes $300k/year is in better financial shape than someone who makes $100k/year when in fact, the doctor spends all his earning on debt payment and lavish life style. Not only that he needs to finance above and beyond his income to supplement his life style? Debt up to his eyeballs. The IT manager who makes 100k? He has no debt to outsiders. Everything is bought through his own savings. See how flawed your statement is GeoffD?

Being able to borrow endlessly is the signs of economy strength? then by the same logic, The doctor did in fact reached the pinnacle of financial success US Economy is in fact far better than China's

Black Friday was a success? Guess where the smoke stacks are? NOT HERE. Don't get confused GeoffD. I have been predicting fall of dollar for over two years. Since then dollar have lost it's dominance. Simply because it is based on exploding national debt. And you wonder why China and Russia doesn't want dollar any more and established bilateral trade agreement? IMF calling for new world reserve currency? It was more than obvious and I didn't even bother to post them again here. Rest of the world is moving forward with new financial order without dollar reserve currency. And to say that this is my exclusive opinion is like saying YOU DO NOT READ much. I will give credit where credit is due under any circumstances but when looking at things very much objectively, if anyone argues that US Economy is healthy and US dollar is still mighty, I will have to laugh because it is as stupid as the bumper sticker "POWER OF PRIDE" Be proud ofcourse but don't let your pride blind you from seeing things as they are.

[a_riot]

You fail yet again. But this paragraph of yours says it all. I've said it before.

Yes and I'm sure you'll say it again, over and over, ad nauseum.

You are an intellectual fraud. Shill who argues for the sake of argument based on NOTHING and will use every dirty little dirty tricks to make his baseless point appeared logical and factual.

So you claim my argument appears logical and factual. Are you sure that isn't because it is?

Do I think you are a noob? I know you are a noob. a_riot, Rest of your writings are same. Incomplete, incoherent and confused.You think I spend my precious time arguing with you in order to convince you? FK NO, You are confusing unsuspected people who are looking for genuine information. I will call your BS. Try harder but you will fail because you are a fraud.

More insults. How insightful. So everyone here is an unsuspecting person except you? I think some here may take exception to that notion.

Money originated as commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money.[4] Fiat money is without intrinsic use value as a physical commodity, and derives its value by being declared by a government to be legal tender; that is, it must be accepted as a form of payment within the boundaries of the country, for "all debts, public and private".

Did you think that we all think that paper money has some intrinsic value? Lol. Everyone knows its legal tender and that without the gov't enforcing it as currency it has no intrinsic value. That's economics 101. Since it must be accepted as a form of payment, whereas gold isn't, it is therefore money, no matter how much this disturbs you.

IRS accepts paper money because it has been declared as acceptable currency of payment of debt by the government thus FIAT! But this does not take away the historical and current fact of Gold and Silver being money. YOU NOOB!

Someone somewhere along the way got it into your head that FIAT means BAD. It doesn't. There have been stable FIAT currencies over the years, and fraudulent ones, just as there has been stable commodity currencies over the years, and fraudulent ones. If US dimes were made of gold they would still only be worth 10¢.