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    Thread: Who is using VVT to make power?

    1. Member TooLFan46n2's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 02:31 PM #1
      I've seen one or two users say they are using VVT to make power. Who all is doing this, what results have you had, what head setup are you running, reliability; any tensioner failures?

      I'm in the process of installing an AEB head on my AWP motor. Until recently I was going to just use the AEB tensioner but saw a thread by Badger5 (sorry can't find it) saying they saw gains across the board engaging VVT on his 1.8t. and even small gains (low-midrange) on a k03 equipped car.

      Secondly how does one go about engaging & deactivating the solenoid that controls VVT. I'm using Eurodyne Maestro I don't think there is any feature in the software to utilize VVT but if enough interest I'm sure they would write it in if they can.
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    2. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 02:34 PM #2
      034 is doing it.

      http://blog.034motorsport.com/tuning...-cam-adjuster/

      http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=138467013226

      After receiving a fresh set of Cat Cams 3658 Billet Camshafts, we were able to do some dyno testing and determine the viability of utilizing the factory 1.8T VVT cam tensioner to improve the powerband of our Time Attack B5 Audi A4.

      We verified clearance for up to 30 degrees of advance on the intake camshaft (the VVT tensioner itself only provides about 22 degrees of advance) on our 2.2L stroker motor with the 3658s, plugged in the VVT tensioner to our 034EFI Stage IIc Standalone ECU, and got to work.

      Turning on the VVT tensioner resulted in about ~400 RPM quicker spool, and solid power gains up to ~6200 RPM. We netted gains of over 60 foot-pounds of torque at the wheels at ~4000 RPM.

      Take a look at the dyno chart below, which compares one pull with the VVT tensioner turned off for the entire pull, and one pull with the VVT tensioner turned on for the entire pull.

      By calibrating our ECU to switch the VVT tensioner on at low RPM, and off at ~6200RPM, we were able to combine the best of both worlds. This results in a much broader powerband, with a substantial pickup in low-end torque without sacrificing the impressive top-end power that the 3658s allow.

      We strongly recommend checking clearances on your 1.8T build before attempting to utilize the VVT tensioner. Depending on the specifics of your motor, there may not be enough clearance to turn the VVT tensioner on without piston to valve contact.

      Obviously, the potential gains and optimal switchover point will vary from build to build depending on the cams you’re using. For example, on stock AEB cams, there was only a ~5WHP gain at extremely low RPM.
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    3. Member machx0r's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 03:46 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by TooLFan46n2 View Post
      Secondly how does one go about engaging & deactivating the solenoid that controls VVT. I'm using Eurodyne Maestro I don't think there is any feature in the software to utilize VVT but if enough interest I'm sure they would write it in if they can.
      I know nothing about Maestro and whether or not it has to ability to add "general purpose" IO so can't comment on that. However the VVT tensioner has a simple solenoid so "controlling" it is as easy as applying 12V or not. At least this was my understanding when I tore mine down. I never actually measured the voltage coming from the ECU to the solenoid.
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    4. Member elRey's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 04:13 PM #4
      There maybe different version of the VVT solenoid. I believe all transverse are simple on/off type and there stock management uses them as such. I've 'heard' some longitudinal applications use it beyond the on/off. This implies the solenoid is capable of more than 2 positions and management can control it.

      Maybe a partnumber search can shed some light.
      edit: a quick look tells me they are the same part (058109088E). So, no difference.

      But I'm pretty certain a transverse solenoid is only capable of 2 positions. And I have no tuning knowedge as to whether on/off control can produce gains.

      And yes, it's a 12v signal.
      Last edited by elRey; 12-07-2010 at 04:20 PM.

    5. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 04:14 PM #5
      Even if your tune doesn't call for it, you could potentially utilize the VVT using secondary electronics such as a MST RPM activated window switch

      http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8969/
      http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-830452/

      Have the VVT turn on at x RPM and turn off at y RPM
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    6. 12-07-2010 05:44 PM #6
      I have also tryed the VVT on a 300hp setup with 2860RS turbo and stock cam's. We did see a quicker spool and a better midrange!

      Could be cool to try but i need to be sure there are room for it:-)

      Do you know anybody who is useing the VVT with cat cam's 1013775?

      Best regards from
      Jacob

    7. Member DMVDUB's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 05:54 PM #7
      The VVT on these cars is backwards from vtec? or not? If so the only real point woild be to have the extra exhaust to spool a BT quicker, or get a huge tq spike from a K04 and break something...
      Otherwise making power with this would be nominal, right? splicing in a window switch would be a simple affair I could use the one from my No2 setup, but I doubt it would be worth it. Might try it anyways and see if I break something gives me an excuse to build a stroker this winter.
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    8. 12-07-2010 06:07 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by DMVDUB View Post
      The VVT on these cars is backwards from vtec? or not? If so the only real point woild be to have the extra exhaust to spool a BT quicker, or get a huge tq spike from a K04 and break something...
      Otherwise making power with this would be nominal, right? splicing in a window switch would be a simple affair I could use the one from my No2 setup, but I doubt it would be worth it. Might try it anyways and see if I break something gives me an excuse to build a stroker this winter.
      On the 2860RS setup it worked very good. Sad i dont have the dyno run with and with out VVT.

    9. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-07-2010 06:34 PM #9
      If Eurodyne/ Unitronic can build it into custom software tunes, that'd be rad.

      Standalone can already build it into tunes.

      I can see window switches on the VVT as the next big trend in extreme ME7 1.8t applications running cams and BT.
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      12-07-2010 06:52 PM #10
      would there be any point on a k04 car? minimal counts as a point just not much of one. I'm thinking of hooking up my window switch to try it before I install the s60 I just don't want a tq spike to break something. I could set it to com on at 5000 rpms would that make the k04 hold boost longer?
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      12-07-2010 07:20 PM #11
      Has anyone provided a log of the EGT's running that much overlap? I would think you would get some significantly elevated temperatures with the VVT advance/overlap on a fully up to temp motor.

    12. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 12:02 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by old guy2 View Post
      Has anyone provided a log of the EGT's running that much overlap? I would think you would get some significantly elevated temperatures with the VVT advance/overlap on a fully up to temp motor.
      It's a pretty new thing. If anyone wants to help break new ground I would think an EGT probe would be essential! for testing
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    13. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 01:00 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      If Eurodyne/ Unitronic can build it into custom software tunes, that'd be rad.
      If you know what you are doing with Motronic you can activate. 034 activates it in there 2.7TT software


    14. Member TooLFan46n2's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 07:37 AM #14
      After receiving a fresh set of Cat Cams 3658 Billet Camshafts, we were able to do some dyno testing and determine the viability of utilizing the factory 1.8T VVT cam tensioner to improve the powerband of our Time Attack B5 Audi A4.

      We verified clearance for up to 30 degrees of advance on the intake camshaft (the VVT tensioner itself only provides about 22 degrees of advance) on our 2.2L stroker motor with the 3658s, plugged in the VVT tensioner to our 034EFI Stage IIc Standalone ECU, and got to work.

      Turning on the VVT tensioner resulted in about ~400 RPM quicker spool, and solid power gains up to ~6200 RPM. We netted gains of over 60 foot-pounds of torque at the wheels at ~4000 RPM.

      Take a look at the dyno chart below, which compares one pull with the VVT tensioner turned off for the entire pull, and one pull with the VVT tensioner turned on for the entire pull.

      By calibrating our ECU to switch the VVT tensioner on at low RPM, and off at ~6200RPM, we were able to combine the best of both worlds. This results in a much broader powerband, with a substantial pickup in low-end torque without sacrificing the impressive top-end power that the 3658s allow.

      We strongly recommend checking clearances on your 1.8T build before attempting to utilize the VVT tensioner. Depending on the specifics of your motor, there may not be enough clearance to turn the VVT tensioner on without piston to valve contact.

      Obviously, the potential gains and optimal switchover point will vary from build to build depending on the cams you’re using. For example, on stock AEB cams, there was only a ~5WHP gain at extremely low RPM.
      Well I guess there would be no benefit to me, I'm not dumping $6-800 on cams. I'd be highly interested in being able to decrease my spool time. For a street car I still have enough head room to grow for top end




      Quote Originally Posted by Issam Abed View Post
      If you know what you are doing with Motronic you can activate. 034 activates it in there 2.7TT software
      Any reliability issues with the cars running this? Do you agree there is no point to doing this on stock cams. I would love to decrease spool time but 5whp hardly seems worth the troubles.

      According to this dyno, power seems to drop off quickly once the VVT is disengaged compared to not using it. Maybe disengaging the VVT initiates some timing pull in the ECM?

      GTi 337 Edition ~ 322WHP 270WTQ
      {PPT T3/T4 50 TRIM .63 Haldex Kit - Eurodyne Maestro - 630cc Injectors - IE Rods - AEB Head w/ VVT - CAT Cam Gear - Walbro Inline - Audi S3 Gearbox - Peloquin Diff - SouthBend STGIII Clutch - .:R32 LCA's/Spindles/Rack - Ksport Audi TT Coilovers - 25mm R32 FSB - 28mm RSB - Porsche BBK - Eurojet FMIC - FSI Coils - 2 Stage Boostvalve - HKS SSQV }

    15. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 08:40 AM #15
      There is a guy local to me (aka prof315) controlling VVT on a 2020 via Megasquirt 3. He should have some dynos soon from what I hear.
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    16. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 09:23 AM #16
      Here's the real question though. Does the VVT valve bleed oil from the tensioner when engaged or add oil (like Vtec does)? Cause if it's adding oil and pushing the tensioner arms further out then it RETARDS the intake cam timing. If it bleeds oil off and lets the tensioner arms come in it will advance.
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    17. 12-08-2010 12:35 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by TooLFan46n2 View Post
      After receiving a fresh set of Cat Cams 3658 Billet Camshafts, we were able to do some dyno testing and determine the viability of utilizing the factory 1.8T VVT cam tensioner to improve the powerband of our Time Attack B5 Audi A4.

      We verified clearance for up to 30 degrees of advance on the intake camshaft (the VVT tensioner itself only provides about 22 degrees of advance) on our 2.2L stroker motor with the 3658s, plugged in the VVT tensioner to our 034EFI Stage IIc Standalone ECU, and got to work.



      Well I guess there would be no benefit to me, I'm not dumping $6-800 on cams. I'd be highly interested in being able to decrease my spool time. For a street car I still have enough head room to grow for top end






      Any reliability issues with the cars running this? Do you agree there is no point to doing this on stock cams. I would love to decrease spool time but 5whp hardly seems worth the troubles.

      According to this dyno, power seems to drop off quickly once the VVT is disengaged compared to not using it. Maybe disengaging the VVT initiates some timing pull in the ECM?

      That is the cool thing, you can drive with the VVT on until 6000rpm (different on each setup), then you will have better bottom torque/spool and you will keep the top end power.

    18. Member schwartzmagic's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 03:08 PM #18
      Haven't been this excited about a thread in a while

    19. Member Vegeta Gti's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 03:16 PM #19
      this is why i'm keeping my VVT
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    20. Banned erevlydeux's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 03:27 PM #20
      So the VVT solenoid is normally only on during.. what? The SAI period on start up?

    21. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 03:31 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by erevlydeux View Post
      So the VVT solenoid is normally only on during.. what? The SAI period on start up?
      Yep
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      12-08-2010 03:38 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Yep
      Interesting. With Issam's post in mind (checking piston/valve clearances) - running this full-time on a stock engine (no change in pistons/valves from stock) ought to be OK, right? (if it can run at idle, higher revs don't change clearances)

      If I'm not thinking about this the wrong way, engaging it would be a pretty simple task/setup. Automotive relay + window switch. Wire the VVT solenoid to the NC side of the relay, have the window switch trigger the relay "on" at a given RPM (the sweet spot cut-off that 034 refers to) and voila... simple way to engage VVT full-time with an adjustable RPM cut-off. That, and a resistor to go on the ECU harness to fake the VVT, of course.

      Not sure what the DTC implications could be here, though.

    23. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 05:39 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by erevlydeux View Post
      Interesting. With Issam's post in mind (checking piston/valve clearances) - running this full-time on a stock engine (no change in pistons/valves from stock) ought to be OK, right? (if it can run at idle, higher revs don't change clearances)

      If I'm not thinking about this the wrong way, engaging it would be a pretty simple task/setup. Automotive relay + window switch. Wire the VVT solenoid to the NC side of the relay, have the window switch trigger the relay "on" at a given RPM (the sweet spot cut-off that 034 refers to) and voila... simple way to engage VVT full-time with an adjustable RPM cut-off. That, and a resistor to go on the ECU harness to fake the VVT, of course.

      Not sure what the DTC implications could be here, though.
      Pretty much...but most of the window switches are designed for solenoids already...so no relay necessary. They have enough current capacity built in (with likely faster response times than a relay)
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    24. Member l88m22vette's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 06:45 PM #24
      I emailed Chris Tapp about rigging something in Maestro, I'm waiting on the response and will update as soon as I know anything I'm happy my BEA has one stock, but I wonder if regular usage will cause reduced part life. One downside of the VVT tensioner is that it costs $500+
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    25. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 06:50 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by l88m22vette View Post
      I emailed Chris Tapp about rigging something in Maestro, I'm waiting on the response and will update as soon as I know anything I'm happy my BEA has one stock, but I wonder if regular usage will cause reduced part life. One downside of the VVT tensioner is that it costs $500+
      If this becomes a performance part maybe someone will make a better one.
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    26. 12-08-2010 06:55 PM #26
      In terms of DTC problems, I could see the computer throwing a cam crank correlation code since the intake cam would be advanced 22* unexpectedly if you used a window switch and stock ECU.

    27. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 07:01 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by dmonitto View Post
      In terms of DTC problems, I could see the computer throwing a cam crank correlation code since the intake cam would be advanced 22* unexpectedly if you used a window switch and stock ECU.
      Very true. You'd likely have to use an aftermarket ECU and have all the codes that the CPS throws thrown out.
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    28. Member DMVDUB's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 07:22 PM #28
      This is by far the best thread in the last year or so, maybe longer.

      I can't wait for some Honda kid to brag how his car has VTEC and mine doesn't and be able to say , " well actually it does have a form of VTEC + a turbo and lot's of torque!"

      and this was all discovered when a bunch of vortexers actually got together to do something other than bitch!

      Can't wait to hear back on the maestro thing if it could disengage the ecu seeing the intake cam that would be phenomenal, it would be the first thing I've done with this software.
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      12-08-2010 08:01 PM #29
      There's no reason the VVT mechanism couldn't be shimmed to limit movement, as well. It could be interesting- the 22 degrees of move- although odviously a big pick up in bottom end- may be past ideal-

      Could be worth experimenting.

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      12-08-2010 08:07 PM #30
      yes, yes, it would sir
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    31. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 10:12 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by enginenerd View Post
      There's no reason the VVT mechanism couldn't be shimmed to limit movement, as well. It could be interesting- the 22 degrees of move- although odviously a big pick up in bottom end- may be past ideal-

      Could be worth experimenting.
      Or you could just control the solenoid with PWM. It would then become fully tunable both in terms of how much and when is it on.
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    32. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      12-08-2010 10:20 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      Or you could just control the solenoid with PWM. It would then become fully tunable both in terms of how much and when is it on.
      That depends on how well the solenoid reacts to PWM. Not all solenoids deal with it the same. That theory needs to be tested
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    33. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      12-09-2010 05:56 AM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      That depends on how well the solenoid reacts to PWM. Not all solenoids deal with it the same. That theory needs to be tested
      And it wil be as soon as I can confirm which way the cam moves when VVT is active.
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    34. 12-09-2010 07:21 AM #34
      Can vvt be activated via me7 (a4 b6) when tuning the software? Im running 1.8 NA cams and hx35. I had cam gear turned 1 tooth early and it started making boost from 2000rpm! Its just lost at top end power. Cam @ 0-position makes boost 2700-3000 rpm.

    35. 12-09-2010 07:37 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Prof315 View Post
      And it wil be as soon as I can confirm which way the cam moves when VVT is active.
      that depends which guide pulls out when activated. Upper will retard and lower would advance?! right? But i guess its the upper one

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