Got engineering?

[Dub-Nub]

This isnt a VW or a german car but it made me do this

Every now and then I come across something truly impressive. This represents some of the work of Extreme Tuners in Athens, Greece, and the name is no joke. Pushing limits requires funds and skill, and these guys have both. All they do is build and tune engines. The entire lengthy discussion can be found here (http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyn...ne-2007-a.html), but unless you feel like reading quite a few pages of posts, I'll post the highlights here.

FWIW, this is some of what they've done:

2006 - N/A ford cosworth 4cylinder 16v engine 119cui: 416hp -11,900rpms
2007 - Ford cosworth 4cylinder 16v Turbo engine 120cui: 1280hp 47psi (custom triple ball bearing 80mm turbo 119lbs/min)
2007 – Mitsubishi Evo 8 4g63 4cylinder 16v Turbo engine: 1416hp – 57psi (custom quad ball bearing 82mm turbo 132lbs/min)

So, getting 700whp/L from 2.0L @ 8500rpm is no small feat, but what do you need if you get bored and want to shoot for 2000whp?


Cast Garrett compressor wheels (right) tend to come apart above 50 psi. CNC billet aluminum wheels (middle) are stronger, but why not be different and use your own CNC billet titanium (left) compressor?




You'll need a turbo big enough for the job, which in this case is a 108mm twinscroll T4 turbo, with custom quad ball bearing CHRA and 100psi capability.









To get enough airflow at 12,000rpm(!) to get the job done, you'll need a skillfully ported head, complete with titanium valves and copper-beryllium valve seats:










And you're going to need a set of camshafts to handle the rpm and withstand tremendous ramp pressures, so why not a set of hollow titanium billets with DLC at only 234 grams each?











And since there is no aftermarket rod up to the task, just ask for a set of billet mmcs-titanium connecting rods at 286g each. Rod/Stroke ratio is 2.07:







For pistons, a set of custom beryllium pistons with DLC fits the bill, and since methanol is the fuel, 13:1 SCR is fine:








A strong piston pin is needed as well:






Toss in a custom titanium billet crank:





A set of 9000cc/min injectors:




And since a factory 4G63 block probably wouldn't hold up, just CNC machine your own from billet aluminum:






No head gasket is used:




And to put all that power to the gearbox, one needs a suitable multiplate clutch:




Yes, it is smaller than a cam gear:






An example of very efficient turbo manifold design from one of their recent projects:






And last but not least, a dynosheet from this car, running 'only' 48psi and hydraulic cams:

[Stephan Schmidt]

Wow! Very Impressive!

[Issam Abed]

Thanks
Spyros Panopoulos
Extreme Tuners

Would expect nothing less from Spyros. When he made 600hp from an 8V back in 2003? Everyone (myself included) laughed and called him bs.
http://www.jwelty.com/jwelty3/spyros-mk2turbo.htm
When he showed me what he was doing with his 16V build 2 years later , I sat back , gave the guys props and never questioned his methods.
for a fabulous mechanical engineer and a guy who has proven many wrong time and time again.

[pimS]

wow...

[BoostedDubVR6T420]

That is probably the most stout motor I have ever seen. Crazy impressive.

[Bacon11]

Got awesome?

Cool stuff there.

[Vegeta Gti]

titanium finally becoming more present..

hello $45k motor lol

sickness..so delicious

[Dub-Nub]

titanium finally becoming more present..

hello $45k motor lol

sickness..so delicious

Found this on one of the forums, not sure if its 100% accurate

Since some of you are wondering what this costs, I know the Ti rods are around $3250 each, and the Ti crank is around $31,000. They are now working on a CNC billet cylinder head and carbon fiber turbine housings. These guys have good connections with F1 parts fabricators.

[GTijoejoe]

titanium finally becoming more present..

hello $45k motor lol

sickness..so delicious

It maybe more expensive than that.... I mean think of the billet block alone
Most of the other materials etc. is like F1 technology... especially looking at the size of that piston..Beryl. Titanium. Alum MMC.....$$$$$$$$$

Awesome craziness.... now I wonder what it takes to make that 4cyl spin to 20k

[bdeitemeyer]

titanium finally becoming more present..

hello $45k motor lol

sickness..so delicious

I would guesstimate that that motor is WELL above $45k, you're looking at a limitless budget build...6 figures easy.

[CDJetta]

Can you really call that an EVO motor any more?

[vergessen wir es]

Wish I had the CAD files.

[leebro61]

Wish I had the CAD files.

...and what would you do with them?

[vergessen wir es]

I would like more insight into how to design a billet block and head, material selection and tolerances, which the files would give me. The goal is to fabricate a better head for the 12v.
And I recognize the 12v has its peculiarities so it's no small job to translate what works on a 4 cylinder to a 15 degree vr, but I would rather have at least a starting point.
Once you have the right design it's just chips.

[kuma85]

holy crip its a Crapple.

[SirRipo]

ohhh maiii gawwwwwwwwwd.

[DannyLo]

A billet VR6 block would be money!

Awesome find

[CDJetta]

I think a new re-engineered vr6 head would be better than a vr6 block.

[GTijoejoe]

I think a new re-engineered vr6 head would be better than a vr6 block.

x2

[nuugen]

That is enough injector to fuel the space shuttle..
Might as well take the restriction out of the way in put a hose directly into the cylinders!
Pure pron there..

[alloutofdonuts]

...and what would you do with them?

Well I for one would print them out on some delicious flavored paper and eat it. Hopefully some knowledge and or awesome-ness would come from it. More than likely it would just be uncomfortable poop tho.

[Bacon11]

Well I for one would print them out on some delicious flavored paper and eat it. Hopefully some knowledge and or awesome-ness would come from it. More than likely it would just be uncomfortable poop tho.

lololol

[Uberhare]

Titanium is not easy to work with and machine. I'd like to see the machining equipment to work on the Ti crank, cam shaft, and other bits and pieces. Very impressive to say the least.

[l88m22vette]

That's ****ing insane...have...no...words

[Dave926]

Soon as I saw the first pic, and the tone of the original writer of this I knew it was that bastard.

Issam you forget his build, though he didnt continue it much? He was talking a 1000hp 16v at 10k rpm. Everyone doubted him then too.

He was talking about nikasil plated cylinders, custom rods, pistons etc. I remember the engine has a huge ****ing turbo too.

Found the thread, have fun ladies

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...p-%28Greece%29

[DannyLo]

I think a new re-engineered vr6 head would be better than a vr6 block.

true, but i would love for my engine to be alot lighter than it is.

[SpoonGTI]

holy mother of god...

[enginenerd]

Titanium crank? Berrylium pistons?

Does it have slices of space shuttle heat shield tiles bolted onto the pistons as well?

Sorry, but there's a fair bit of stuff listed there which doesn't exist. Titanium for example would make a terrible crankshaft, at any cost. Definitely some beautiful parts there, but some of the details may have gotten a little lost in translation.

[Capt.Dreadz]

The parts list is any car enthusiasts dream but...

Couldn't this be achieved with the right block choice (if you had a choice of ANY 4cyl.?) for a fraction of whats claimed. I too have followed all of his previous AMAZING builds.....that i never seen finished.IIRC, he posted a bunch of uber parts, a half done engine and a dyno plot and then drop of the face of the earth for 5 yrs.

And i'm no metalogist but as someone mentioned above, wouldn't the tooling to make a Ti crank be super heavy duty. Casting a Ti crank....easy 6 figure engine.........for what?


Someone please show me a vid...complete engine....

[CDJetta]

Those top fuel guys pushing thousands of HP.... what do they make their engines out of?

[Capt.Dreadz]

Those top fuel guys pushing thousands of HP.... what do they make their engines out of?

Nothing like this...Not even F1 uses a CNC Billet block and they rev out to 15+k easy.


Here's his last unfinished project



After doing some searching, i found out that beryllium is the rarest metal in the universe let alone earth. NASA uses teaspoons of this stuff and he has it in an engine...YEEAAAA

I never call anybody out on their project...except this guy. He was exposed in the mk2 forum when he posted his 1000hp 8v.

[GTijoejoe]

And i'm no metalogist but as someone mentioned above, wouldn't the tooling to make a Ti crank be super heavy duty. Casting a Ti crank....easy 6 figure engine.........for what?

This is the real deal, many high tech racing parts have Ti and copper-beryl, Al MMC...
The only other super alloy that wasen't mentioned that I know of that is used highly in F1 etc is magnesium, I had access to eng. tech journals for racing, some of this **** is real.
Ti would surely be easier to machine than Al MMC and Carbon ceramic or Carbon Carbon

Keep in mind many of these materials are alloys (I'm sure you know that), its not like those pistons are 100% beryl

[Capt.Dreadz]

even so......does that look like an F1 engine? F1 builds to win F1 racing. Would you build something like this just to say you have it?

Eh, i dunno....In for the finished engine....

[Dave926]

bery is also pretty toxic. Heavy metal poinsoning anyone?

[enginenerd]

This is the real deal, many high tech racing parts have Ti and copper-beryl, Al MMC...
The only other super alloy that wasen't mentioned that I know of that is used highly in F1 etc is magnesium, I had access to eng. tech journals for racing, some of this **** is real.
Ti would surely be easier to machine than Al MMC and Carbon ceramic or Carbon Carbon

Keep in mind many of these materials are alloys (I'm sure you know that), its not like those pistons are 100% beryl

That's all fine, but it's not a titanium crank. Titanium galls like crazy when run against other metals- even the rods need to be coated to protect the thrusts... You certainly aren't going to run a rod on a ground titanium journal. then there's the fact that while it has a high strength to weight ratio, it does require quite a large volume of material. Look at the Ti rods. Where do you add that sort of volume to a crankshaft, which is weakest in the small area where the rod journal and main journal overlap? Simple answer- you don't, can't, and never will. Even if you could, the equivalent steel crank will still be stiffer.

Making a crank out of titanium would be like wearing your socks on your wang and your boxers on your feet. Even in F1, where the budget is ~unlimited, and titanium is legal- it's not done.

Good racing cranks are billet alloy steel, usually something similar to 4340 or EN40B etc, if not actually 4340. The highest tier's of racing will use a steel that's been remelted, or double remelted for purity, x rayed, and certified- fully traceable. $$$$ even though it's just "regular old steel"- A double remelt steel only yields about 25-30% of the original quantity they start with, so it gets $$.

FWIW, top fuel engines do typically use billet blocks and heads with no water jackets. Oh ya, and those use steel cranks too

MMC is an interesting topic, unfortunately- since they banned it in F1, nobody really has the $$$ to do the trial and error to get it to work for automotive use. There are a few companies out there making MMC rods, but it's very, very slim pickins.

Oddly enough, with the high speed era of F1 coming to an end and higher cylinder pressures / lower speeds coming back most likely- you might well be seeing steel pistons shortly. Again, the stiffness of steel becomes valuable.