2.5 Intake Timing Chain Issues

[mhjett]

Before condemning VW, it's helpful to note that you don't know how the car was maintained. It could be that the oil was never changed, it could be that someone used the wrong oil. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast for a car without a history. That said, in your case I would probably keep driving it because it'd cost more than $650 to do the chains on your current engine.

[Imanol Alamillo]

So do you guys recommend me to change the timing chains and tensioners just to be safe? Will they somehow just snap?
Also I have a question: does the stretching of the timing chains can affect the timing between camshaft and crankshaft to the point that they are not as timed as when they were new?
I'm pretty sure I can tackle this job myself, as a matter of fact I'm hoping they start making noises so I can tear that part of the engine apart.

[itskohler]

Before condemning VW, it's helpful to note that you don't know how the car was maintained. It could be that the oil was never changed, it could be that someone used the wrong oil. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast for a car without a history. That said, in your case I would probably keep driving it because it'd cost more than $650 to do the chains on your current engine.

This.

So do you guys recommend me to change the timing chains and tensioners just to be safe? Will they somehow just snap?
Also I have a question: does the stretching of the timing chains can affect the timing between camshaft and crankshaft to the point that they are not as timed as when they were new?
I'm pretty sure I can tackle this job myself, as a matter of fact I'm hoping they start making noises so I can tear that part of the engine apart.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. And if you want to tackle it yourself make sure you the specialty tools. Otherwise you just ****ed yourself.

[mhjett]

Wow, I was really getting worried about the timing chain going south. It seems that my car is safe from that premature failure. Just hitted the 210k mile mark and no rattles at all.
'06 Jetta.

I've you've hit 210k miles with no issues, I think it's fair to assume your car does NOT have defective parts. That said, at 210k miles, the chains and/or guides (most likely guides) could potentially simply wear out. If you've gone that far with no issues, I'd just keep driving it until you get any unusual noises or codes. You've gotten a ton of miles out of your engine.

As far as doing your chains as preventative maintenance, you certainly could do that, but I would research the work and special tools involved. Keep in mind the Bentley manual doesn't cover chains, saying it is "beyond the scope" of the manual (although the mkIII Bentley does cover VR6 chains).

[Imanol Alamillo]

So I just decided to tackle this job myself. I'll open a new thread to post some pics.

[Shtbox]

my 5/07 rabbit has quite a bit of chain noise at 55.6k miles...

[mhjett]

So I just decided to tackle this job myself. I'll open a new thread to post some pics.

I would be very interested in seeing a DIY, given that the Bentley doesn't cover this mysterious procedure... Good luck.

[thygreyt]

I would be very interested in seeing a DIY, given that the Bentley doesn't cover this mysterious procedure... Good luck.

because you are not supposed to ever need to perform this "service".

let me ask something, why spend 1k doing the job, when you can spend 1k on a new, lower milage motor?

[GTACanuck]

because you are not supposed to ever need to perform this "service".

let me ask something, why spend 1k doing the job, when you can spend 1k on a new, lower milage motor?

Have to agree with Fred on this. I found an 08 motor with 9,000 mi for 600 bucks plus 200 shipping.

[mhjett]

because you are not supposed to ever need to perform this "service".

let me ask something, why spend 1k doing the job, when you can spend 1k on a new, lower milage motor?

How is he going to spend $1k doing the job himself (unless you count the time he puts into it)?

[thygreyt]

whats the total for parts, and tools (if he/she needs to buy some)?

[tankisarockstar]

this is my first post in the tech section for VW...my 07 rabbit hit 80k and i had a problem with the car...it basically sounded like a jet engine at idle. 3 trips to service and they diagnosed it as the timing chain tensioner....then they quoted me "about $2500 just for the labor...and thats just an estimate"....needless to say....hello mkvi jetta.

[Vash350z]

I swear i am starting to her chain noises on my 07, 87k miles. Been emailing a dealership back and forth over a very lightly used 2011 evolution x in my favorite color, may need to go for it.

[mhjett]

whats the total for parts, and tools (if he/she needs to buy some)?

Here's all the parts from Adirondack (Germanautoparts.com):

http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volks...a/Engine/227/8

Adds up to $341.26.

I don't know what tools are needed, but I can't imagine it takes $700 of special tools to do the chains.

[thygreyt]

Here's all the parts from Adirondack (Germanautoparts.com):

http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volks...a/Engine/227/8

Adds up to $341.26.

I don't know what tools are needed, but I can't imagine it takes $700 of special tools to do the chains.

thats assuming that it was caught on time.

not trying to win a debate... cause in the end, if the thing is caught before it causes damages, then yes its cheaper to simply fix it.

[mhjett]

thats assuming that it was caught on time.

not trying to win a debate... cause in the end, if the thing is caught before it causes damages, then yes its cheaper to simply fix it.

Not trying to win either. Just saying that from all of Imanol Alamillo's posts, his chains are just fine and don't make any noise, he's just doing it as preventative work. I agree, though, that if something broke first you'd probably be out well over $1k in parts.

Edit - BTW, here is Imanol Alamillo's repair thread. Looks like things are coming along...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-with-06-Jetta

[xiviperi]

had mine looked at professionally, the noise is def the timing chain.... its 10 book hours to have them do it. Going to drive her till she blows then ebay a motor..... car is at 86,000 miles now had noise for over 10k already so who knows maybe it will keep going for a long time.

[oldman13]

I have similar issues.. timing chain skipped, dented in valves, quoted $3000 + as worst case scenario. I asked the mechanic if he could find a used motor instead. My current one has around 120,000 miles on it. Thoughts? Is the new motor the way to go? Will it be cheaper or risky since I won't know what issues the new one has? Thanks

[alwaysdutch]

Well, what I can say is that if you replace the motor, and replace it with an '08, you do get a better engine that has all the illnesses removed and in most cases a lower mileage.

I replaced the engine, spent about $1,600 on parts and tools, but got almost a new car back for it. Reading the threads from folks that have done this, it seems that most are happy with the change.

You can get a new car as VW will probably give you a nice check towards a new car. They gave me a $2,000 check if I would bought a new VW.

I can only speak for myself, so please take my note as my own.

[pdjetta]

I would be very interested in seeing a DIY, given that the Bentley doesn't cover this mysterious procedure... Good luck.

The Bentley CD does cover timing chain replacement and setting the valve timing. Its the paper Bentley manual that does not. Both cost the same, so I opted for the CD. I needed to know what was involved in timing chain replacement and valve repair so I could decide whether or not to tackle this myself or swap in a new "used" motor (my son's '05.5 Jetta 2.5 BGP timing chain slipped, trashing the cylinder head). I have 35 years of wrenching experience as a hobby and after reviewing the Bently CD, I opted for a replacement "used" motor because of the number of EXPENSIVE special purpose tools required to set the valve timing and repair the cylinder head in the BGP was outrageous.

--Nate

[mhjett]

The Bentley CD does cover timing chain replacement and setting the valve timing. Its the paper Bentley manual that does not. Both cost the same, so I opted for the CD. I needed to know what was involved in timing chain replacement and valve repair so I could decide whether or not to tackle this myself or swap in a new "used" motor (my son's '05.5 Jetta 2.5 BGP timing chain slipped, trashing the cylinder head). I have 35 years of wrenching experience as a hobby and after reviewing the Bently CD, I opted for a replacement "used" motor because of the number of EXPENSIVE special purpose tools required to set the valve timing and repair the cylinder head in the BGP was outrageous.

--Nate

Interesting, thanks. I have the paper Bentley and as you mentioned, it simply says chain replacement is beyond the scope of the manual. Now you got me wondering what other info is on the DVD versus the book...

I'm curious to see what these special tools are. Valve timing is just valve timing, but at the samet time, I'm not sure what's involved with the variable intake timing on the 2.5. I did the chains on my old VR6 and all you needed was a flat tool to hold the cams in the proper place.

[pdjetta]

The problem is the tools index the engine and camshafts. There are no timing marks on the components. If you like, I can give you the VW tool numbers after I get home. I think the majority of the tool expense, for me, would have been what was required to repair the valve damage. I don't think the timing tools were too bad cost wise.

--Nate

[mhjett]

The problem is the tools index the engine and camshafts. There are no timing marks on the components. If you like, I can give you the VW tool numbers after I get home. I think the majority of the tool expense, for me, would have been what was required to repair the valve damage. I don't think the timing tools were too bad cost wise.

--Nate

Thanks - I have no need for the info, just curious. I see what you're saying though, that you're talking about tools for valve damage repair, not just chain replacement.

I have an '08 2.5 so hopefully will never have any chain issues.

[pdjetta]

I don't think my son will have any timing chain issues again with his 2.5. I just swapped in a "used" CBUA engine from a 2011 Jetta and the engine had a total of 860 miles on it. Yes, 860, under 1000. Came out of a brand new Jetta that was T-boned. $1650 delivered to my door. I also installed a FourSeasons solid flywheel VR-6 clutch kit since the engine was being swapped.

--Nate

[mhjett]

I don't think my son will have any timing chain issues again with his 2.5. I just swapped in a "used" CBUA engine from a 2011 Jetta and the engine had a total of 860 miles on it. Yes, 860, under 1000. Came out of a brand new Jetta that was T-boned. $1650 delivered to my door. I also installed a FourSeasons solid flywheel VR-6 clutch kit since the engine was being swapped.

--Nate

Any issues with the electronics between the '11 engine and your son's '05.5 car?

[pdjetta]

No, and here's why:

I used all the 2005.5 stuff where the part numbers differed. On items where the part numbers were the same, (or superceded to a new number) I used the items from the CBUA (2011) motor, since they are newer. For example, the fuel injectors are different part numers between the two engines, so I put the old intake with injectors on the new motor. The O2 sensor and engine speed sensors were the same part numbers, so I left them on the new motor.

The CBUA has an entirely different engine management system, with more pins on the ECU, so to prevent CELs, and other issues, I stayed with all the BGP engine management stuff.

I of course, used the ECU from the 2005.5 Jetta, the new engine came from an automatic tranny Jetta and was transplanted into a 5-speed. Supposidly the ECUs are different, depending on the transmission. In addition, if I used the new ECU, I would have to have it programmed to work with the imobilizer in the instrument cluster of the 2005.5

Here si a link to another forum that details my swap and has a few pictures:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=348476

--Nate

[mhjett]

Wow, sounds like you definitely did your homework. Congrats on what sounds like a successful swap. Just paged thru your tdiclub thread; well done.

I was curious because as far as I knew, the mkVI electronics are completely different than the mkV.

Could it be that your son's initial no-start condition was unrelated to the chains (e.g. flooded engine) and it was the attempted push-start that caused the chains to skip? Piecing together your posts, it sounds like what caused your son's valve damage problem was the engine spinning backwards while not running, and therefore without any oil pressure, which meant no tension on the chain tensioner, which lead to the chain skipping on the sprocket? It sounds to me like it could be inconclusive that it was even a chain failure to begin with (or were there noises or other signs of failure before it failed to start?).

Doh! My son just told me he tried to push start the car IN REVERSE, BUT USING SECOND GEAR, because the jump start with the battery did not work. Since it was backed in to a parking space on a hill he rolled it backwards and popped the clutch with the transmission in second gear! This made the engine turn backwards. He attempted this a couple of times and the last time, the engine "Stopped abruptly". Maybe that is when the chain let loose and the valves got munched! I hate to say it, but I thought he was smarter than this. At least he should have tried reverse.

I pullled the timing cover off of the old motor all appears well inside. The timing chains are nice and tight and seem to rotate both camshafts in the direction of engine rotation. BUT if I rotate the engine backwards, the chain tensioner immediatly collapses, releasing tension on the upper timing chain and the chain ratchets over the intake camshaft cog, and the intake camshaft remains stationary when this happens! Of course whatever this happens, the the intake valves move out of time. This is what happened to the motor when my son ran it backwards, rolling backwards and using second gear to attempt to roll-start the car.

[pdjetta]

Well, earlier than 3 months ago I have never seen under the hood of a VW with a 2.5 liter in it. I knew nothing about this engine, but have been wrenching on VWs for 35 years as a hobby. I am a diesel fanatic. Luckly, the layout is like the A4 and all the fasteners and connectors work the same way and there are the same mount bolts that need replacing, etc. Pretty straight forward AND I bought the Bentley CD for the car. That was a BIG plus. And I studied it and did research. And I got somewhat lucky. Before I bought the CBUA, I had no idea it has a variable displacement oil pump and a solinoid valve to change the flow rate by the ECU. This was introduced in 2011, the year the motor was made that I bought. I'm lucky because the default without the solinoid plugged in is the high output, oil pump gears fully engaged, which is like the VW oil pumps before 2011.

I tend to think there was some issue that prevented my son from being able to start his Jetta (there was an aftermarket alarm system installed at the time that has an engine kill feature, that perhaps malfunctioned and I removed the alarm and repaired the spliced wiring). Perhaps that was the issue. And I tend to think he caused the chain to skip when he coasted backwards and used second gear to attempt to roll start the engine.

He only had the car for about three months and I rode in it about two weeks before the timing chain failure and the engine ran flawlessly and I heard no odd noises. Also, when I pulled the timing chain cover off, I saw absolutely no wear on the chain guides and the chain was tight. Rotate the engine backwards, the tensioner colapsed and the chain loosened and skipped accross the intake camshaft sprocket, changing the intake valve timing. So my son could have well caused this failure, but I thought the engine would have withstood a backwards rotation, but I NEVER would have attempted to roll start a car coasting backwards and using 2nd gear because I know the engine would spin backwards and not start.

Hopefully this swap will work out. I've only run the engine for about 30 minutes and driven it a couple of miles. I'll try to drive it some more after I get the new tranaxle body mount installed.

--Nate

[kitten_puncher]

I have gotten the famous problem with my 2.5-05 engine at 93K. However, when the CEL came on, I was already too late.

The transmission needs to come off to replace everything, so that is something you need to consider paying for. In most cases, if not all, the engine needs to come out to replace the chains. I ended up buying a new motor and replace it myself due to the cost involved.

I agree that the timing problem should have been a warranty issue, but VW knows it cost a lot of money to replace that.

^^^^exactly my story it sound slike my man...




Here is the thread I started and I thought it wasnt the chains just got the prognosis today and turns out it was the chains after I was told repetatively it was not going to be them.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...0#post78361270

05.5 jetta manual 95K miles zero problems till now, zero check engine lights, zero chain noise, full synthetic oil changes every 5K miles since I bought it with 75K on it and previous owner had all oil changes and maintanence done at the dealer on the 5K mark as well. Sometime life just wants to take a **** on you because it can. $1700 for the top and bottom chains

[06jettaSEL]

Yes, any more info on VW owning up to their shoddy engineering please!

I am trying to help my mom with her 2005.5. I need to find someone who has undertaken this repair themselves so I can try to save her about $1500 that she really doesn't have. Have been unable to locate a DIY or FAQ and I know I will need the RB manual anyway, but I am trying to conceptualize if this is something that I can pull off in 3 days next week. I have above average competence with car repair and a reasonable facility to work in, but obviously can't go into this one without all the info. Any tips please! For the story of this incident keep reading...

My mom is original owner of '05.5 Jetta 2.5, regular maintenance, 63k miles. She got a camshaft position sensor error about a week and a half ago around the same time it started to make a clattering nose at low load and low RPM. She had the code pulled and cleared and it didn't return. The next day my brother went by to check it out and he told her there was definitely something wrong and that she should go nowhere but carefully the few miles to the dealer. I checked it out and it clatters on start up (something that she has complained about several times and been told by dealer is normal on these cars since new). It idles smooth, then will shake intermittently. The sound can be produced by raising RPM to maybe 2k or so in park, and at low load as it passes through that range. The dealer told her that the timing chain is stretched and needs replaced.

Mine does this, I always assumed it was the exhaust making that little popping sound. my car has 20k miles on it (2006) so I doubt my timing chain is stretched. It also makes the popping sound on startup which I researched every mk5 jetta does this from earlier years.

This is a bull**** issue for sure, but I don't plan to keep the car past 50k miles. At this rate, and only putting 5-10k miles a year on it, I think I won't have to worry about this problem before I get rid of it.

Any news of a recall?

I service once every 18 months at the dealer, but only put less than 5k miles a year on this car. Only use premium gas since day 1, and recently dumped one of those engine cleaner STP things into the gas tank for the first time at 20k. Now that I will be rid of one of my other cars soon I expect to get more use out of this car. I have already invested $500 into projectors, $800 into wheels and $600 into new 18" dunlops. I want to make this my new DD and want it to last at least 4 or 5 more years with no issues. Considering it has only 20k miles and never had any cell issues I hope I can make it happen.

[thygreyt]

not EVERY 06 2.5 has issues. most dont.

and at 5k a year, all your issues, if any, will be for the lack of use.

i drive a lot per year (86k in 3.5 years) and i havent had any issues.

[06jettaSEL]

What type of problems can there be from lack of use? Any precautions I can take to avoid these issues?

It has been sitting around for the last couple of years since I got my new car, but always run it every couple weeks for at least 30-50 miles. Never had any start up issues or anything. In fact my biggest gripe so far is the headliner peeled off, headlamps frosted over after 3 or 4 years and the spongy brakes.

Yours is an 08 or 09 so I don't see why you should have problems as they probably ironed out all the kinks by then.

[tek3]

interesting read.. you can add another 05.5 2.5l timing issue to the list.

I took it in for misfires the day that they started... $900 of repairs later I found out that the timing chain streched. Car is just under 76,000 miles.

Bought the car used at 34k miles and do not know how well it was maintained during that period. Since I've had it, I've changed the synthetic oil every 5k miles everytime but once where I hit 6.5k miles. Car has never had any issues and was only ever in the shop for scheduled maintenance or tires. CEL gave me no warning as it was fine one day and then CEL for misfires the next, at which time it went immediately to the dealership.

Has anyone had luck with financial assistance from VW? From what I've read most people are denied or given $1,000-2,000 towards a new VW.

Unforunately time and space/resources eliminate the possibility of a new engine for me so it looks like I'm taking a loss and finding a new ride.

[manunited420]

PetrosVW had success with financial assistance over at the bottom of page two.

[magics5rip]

For all of those with the timing chain issues, what is your engine code? BGP? BGQ?