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    Thread: Honda engine into MK2 chassis

    1. 01-02-2011 05:29 PM #1
      So I'm throwing the idea around and more and more it seems like a good idea. The car currently in question is an 87 GTI with a 2l 16v. I have a g60 waiting to be made into a 16vg60, but the idea of putting a b18 or b20 is tempting. The local market is flooded with good honda parts, and for good prices. Just about everything would be fairly easy to make, or make work, but just a couple concerns. I'm sure many have attempted this, but does anyone have any pictures? Particularly of mounts, or axles. Actually, if you have any pictures of odd swaps in Volkswagens, they could be helpful. Please, no hating. I know this is blasphemy, but its my car, and the big picture for me is in the process of making this work. I have another 87 1.8l 16v that will probably just get the supercharger instead. Anyone interested in throwing ideas around and helping out?
      Shags

    2. 01-02-2011 05:58 PM #2
      Already been done, and in a way I would say: me like... (even though it is an japanese engine, but they're build to last...)
      http://vagdrivers.net/forums/index.p...opic=8432&st=0

      happy reading!

    3. 01-02-2011 06:21 PM #3
      That's extremely helpful, thanks! I dabbled in the Honda crowd in the past, and my shining achievement was a 93 Si hatch, with a H23A from the Euro Accord Type R. Very fast, lots of fun. I have owned 9 Civic hatchbacks in total. Something about the hatchback really pulls me in, and I like the european style of my mk2. I'm kinda knowledgable in the Honda game, so wiring for this swap doesn't scare me... Thanks again!

    4. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-02-2011 07:33 PM #4
      go for it...im planning a similar swap....i want everyones head on here to spin off their shoulders and blow up...

    5. Member hyperformancevw's Avatar
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      01-02-2011 08:12 PM #5
      first off...don't do it, but if you are...at least put a k series in it. you can get b series power and probably more torque with a 20/20 and very little custom parts.
      -87 Golf GT, built BT 1.8t 12.02@119 1.96 60' HX35@18psi pump gas (sold/parted out)
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    6. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-02-2011 08:34 PM #6

    7. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-02-2011 08:36 PM #7
      just for that im getting a gsr stroker tonight.......

    8. 01-03-2011 12:19 AM #8
      well thats the reason im thinking of doing a b-series, to keep costs down. A h-series tempts me because I know a lot about them, and the cost is extremely low, and it has a cable actuated transmission. but everyone has a b-series, and parts for them...

    9. Member hyperformancevw's Avatar
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      01-03-2011 09:25 AM #9
      if you want to get into a pissing match...i'm not going to do it. i'm going to make my point and that's all. if price is a factor, a 20/20 or something like that is cheap to build and with a few tweaks makes decent power. like more than a stock b16 and about the same as a b18 with more torque. you can rule out the b18c5 because of price. i understand you can build hybrids like ls/vtec and b20vtec but it would still be same price as 20/20 if not more. then you have to factor in all the fab work and all the nickel and dime stuff like custom axles and such. by the time you are done, its not worth it unless having some frankenstien of a car just for the sake of having it is worth the extra cost and effort. if you want a honda because it is cheap to build, then buy a honda car and bolt in the honda motor. if you like vw bodies, then for god sake just build a mild vw motor and enjoy. my head will not explode from a purist standpoint, i just cant justify all the extra work if you aren't really gaining much. then you have to look at maintenance parts. break an axle? well you can't just run to the local parts store and pick one up. its completely custom. if you aren't looking to go all out, there is no point in a honda swap. if you want the car to run mid 13 1/4 mile, handle good, get decent mileage, and be reliable, a mild 20/20 will do that with ease. just my opinion.
      -87 Golf GT, built BT 1.8t 12.02@119 1.96 60' HX35@18psi pump gas (sold/parted out)
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    10. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-03-2011 09:48 AM #10
      sooo..youre basically telling after sourcing a 20v head and turning into a 20/20 swap ill make power like a stock honda motor???? sounds great...

    11. Member hyperformancevw's Avatar
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      01-03-2011 03:27 PM #11
      yup. stock b16 is 160hp. a cammed 16v with megasquirt will do that with ease, and have more torque. and the best part is...its already in the car

      here is a stock 16v tuned on megasquirt

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...light=16v+dyno

      here is a stock b16

      http://asia.vtec.net/beystock/Civic/art5/index.html

      you can see with cams and megasquirt, a much simpler project than a honda swap, just a regular 16v will surpass a b16 with ease and rival a b18. thats not even considering building a hybrid vw. big port 20v heads aren't hard to come by. there is one for sale right now on car part for $250. couple that to a free-$50 aba and a $200 rebuild kit and all you would have left is a set of custom pistons and cams to have a strong 20/20 that bolts right in. whats a b16 swap go for ~$1500? that doesn't include custom axles and such. it would probably be around the same cost to do either but i would rather have something that bolts in with factory parts for ease of install and maintenance.
      Last edited by hyperformancevw; 01-03-2011 at 04:07 PM.
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    12. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-03-2011 07:41 PM #12
      ok guy.....we have people like you on here all the time hyping up these dumb ass vw motors...they arent as efficient as any honda b series....b16 still makes more power per liter than any motor vw makes....listen to what you are saying i have to build a hybrid just to make a negligible amount of torque over a stock honda motor... to u....there is also a stock b16 that makes 185hp(ctr) so what then..do i need nitrous on my 16v to make up the difference? seriously think about what you are saying....as a matter of fact actually build something....because ive built a bunch vw motors and they tend to not want to break 160 without some ridiculous amount of work done...ppl on here have a hard time making close to 200whp in their n/a vr6 builds ...my brother threw together an ls/vtech stroker and made 198whp....all stock parts...ive seen so many build threads on here with ppl trying to figure out how to make less than that with a lot more work....im vw lover through and through but im not blind to facts...vw does not make heads that flow better than honda heads im not including d series heads...vw motors only really seem to come alive on some kind of forced induction (excluding race motors) other than those it seems you pour money in for a mediocre result...trust me ive worked on just about every vw....i have the resources and skills to swap any motor into any car i want...so that maybe what makes honda swaps more enticing to me...who knows...but hey u keep dumping money into n/a vws...and ill keep building cool sh!t : ill post pics when i start my swap.

    13. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-03-2011 07:49 PM #13
      oh and heres what i built and now drive so u dont i have slow car that i dont know how to make fast and look like im trying to find an easy way out..



      enjoy....

    14. Junior Member Fireblade RX-7's Avatar
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      01-03-2011 09:03 PM #14
      Let's say for arguements sake I have a Scirocco that I want to turn into a reliable (but fast) normally aspirated car that I can do whatever with. Let's say that I also don't wish to deal with the normal BS associated with having an Iron block VW motor that strains to make 180hp and turn anything greater than 7,000rpm. In real life I own an RX7 that I have completely gone through mechanically, and done a great deal of chassis fabrication by myself in order to have a car that acts the way I'd like it to. So it's not a big problem for me to make engine mounts/custom axles, etc. do do what I need to do.

      To make the car do what I want to to do with a VW engine would require that I build a Frankenstein VW engine out of expensive parts, and it would still not make enough power, rev high enough, or be reliable enough to keep me from wanting a Honda power plant instead. To put any given Honda engine in said old VW, I would have to make engine mounts (easy) and custom axles (also doable) The shift mechanism is also easy to figure out as long as Honda parts are used. Keep in mind, for any A1 chassis VW it would be the same work to put in a newer VW drivetrain anyway, only you'd have to build the engine just to keep up with a stock honda engine. Why would I ever consider spending so much time and money building a normally aspirated VW just to make 200-something When I could easily swap in a Honda engine and do the job better? It's hard to hate something that makes power in such a smooth and reliable manner.

    15. Member hyperformancevw's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 09:37 AM #15
      http://www.cylinderheadtech.com/flownumbers.pdf

      please show me where a b series head drastically outflows a big port 20v. vw 20v has been known to flow around 300cfm in race ported form. also keep in mind the 20v was measured at only .380 lift where the honda was measured at .450. i would like to see the flow of the 20v at .450. also keep in mind you can bolt an fsi head the best vw head to date to any vw block. you cant even compare a 12v vr6 everyone knows that head doesn't flow. everyone just assumes hondas are better and don't even think outside the box and give stuff a try. vw engines can make power its just there aren't as many people trying to compared to honda. there are a lot of breakthrough waiting to happen for the people that are experimenting and pushing the limits which is probably about 20 people compared to about 2000 for honda. i mean nate romero was running right with the hondas all motor 20/20 back in '03 with a lot less r+d time. vw is about 10 years behind honda in r+d advancement. bottom line is, if you want a honda, just get one. i will stick to vw.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0n9NGU-wDk
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    16. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 01:26 PM #16
      uhh...your chart is invalidating your argument....look at it again mister arm chair mechanic Like I said before, actually build something maybe then you'll learn something... and who the hell has money for an fsi head...most people dont. If you were going to get an fsi head you would still be outflowed by a k20 head. Your missing the point of what im telling you. Its not that i dont like vw motors, because i own all vws...and i like all of them, but im not blind to the fact that there are better things out there. You can go ahead show me more charts about things ive already seen, but it doesnt change the facts.

    17. Member Svedka's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 02:21 PM #17
      LMFAO fighting about using a honda motor just buy a fkin honda and hang out with the cool kids.

      U want rice power eat rice

    18. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 02:49 PM #18
      how much power does your n/a vw motor make? Maybe you should put some of the rice in your car so it will actually make some power....

    19. Member Svedka's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 02:56 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by TDiPusher19t View Post
      how much power does your n/a vw motor make? Maybe you should put some of the rice in your car so it will actually make some power....
      I love E85 made from rice

    20. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 03:55 PM #20
      on a serious note....just because you dont like honda or the owners doesnt mean honda makes bad motors...you should really look into their motors before you criticize them...because believe me i really dont like honda owners...at all. that has nothing to do with the fact that honda makes good motors...and to match them with a solid vw chassis would make a very fun and competitive car.

    21. Junior Member Fireblade RX-7's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 04:10 PM #21
      Isn't E-85 made from... Corn?... Nevermind

      Anyways, back to the original topic.

      ShaggysGTI, putting an engine from an alternate manufacture into your VW requires lots of imagination and (in my opinion) is fun and good for your mind, it makes you think outside the box.

      The engine mounts are simple enough, you could get pre-made bits for them at any fabrication supplier, or poke around on McMaster and find something that will suit your needs.

      The axles can be made from a set of cut in half Honda axles and VW axles coupled together with a machined steel tube that can be welded on and possibly dowel pinned. Should be very hard to break if they're designed properly.

      My solution for the computer would be to just put it on Megasquirt, it's cheap enough and super easy to tune. It can control everything the stock computer controls just as well (provided it's set up correctly) and is probably one of the most user friendly stanalone ECUs out there.

      It sounds like you have a valid reason to do the swap. Parts availability and affordability is something I wish I had considered when I built my 12A. I'm stuck with an engine that nobody has parts for (not that I need any, but gaskets are unattainable from parts stores locally) and Mazda no longer makes parts for it. A 13B would have been a much wiser choice as parts for them are much more affordable and the knowledge base for them is much greater than it is for the 12A.

      I'll try and dig up some pictures for you, There was a thread in this section about a year or so ago about the same subject that turned into a VW fanboy turd flinging fest much like this one quickly is becoming.

    22. Junior Member Fireblade RX-7's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 05:59 PM #22
      Here is a build thread by a guy who is putting a K20 into Corrado, I believe there is a video in there somewhere. http://vagdrivers.net/forums/index.p...opic=8432&st=0 Another interesting thing to note is that it sits in the same orientation as a watercooled VW engine, and uses shift cables. Also note that leans backwards instead of forwards, shifting the weight of the engine more towards the center of the car instead of hanging over the front axle centerline. Should make for a riot of a track car.

      And some other miscellaneous pics I found...




    23. 01-04-2011 08:42 PM #23
      Alrite now.... **** the haters. I didn't ask for your opinion on what you would do with your Volkswagen, nor did I ask for you to rain on mine. I like Hondas. I also like Volkswagens. And Toyotas, and Fords; cars in general. I'm a car guy, plain and simple. I'm not a "newb" asking if it's possible, will it be faster than my friends CRX, or am I saying that they they are better engines/cars. Please understand, I'm not looking for an easy way out. Honestly, putting a different manufacturers engine into the car seems a little bit harder to me, and honestly a lot more fun. Please, don't turn this into a pissing competition!

      TDiPusher19t; cool car, mate. Thanks for the support.
      hyperformancevw; you say you won't get into a pissing match, then do. You do have a point about breaking axles, though.
      Svedka; open up your mind some. You'll be surprised what you may discover. Also, E85 is a dream, and a stupid one at that.
      Fireblade RX7; thanks for the pics and the links. You're spot on in the arguement of having a car do what you want it to.

      Now that the pissing match has been smoothed over, does anyone have anything to contribute?

      The electronics should be relatively easy, getting an engine harness, OBD1 preferably, shock tower harness,and all the way to the ECU plugs. I have tons of wiring diagrams from my previous swaps, so this should be a breeze, all I have to do is introduce the proper signals, stuff like power, ground, ignition, starter. The more difficult part would be wanting to try and keep the original VW cluster.

      Mounts should be easy enough, some sheet metal, a welder, and an engine to mock into place. Get the engine where I need to clear the hood, have the axles in the proper location, and hopefully have enough ground clearance, and then modify a set of stock mounts to start.

      Axles, Fireblade RX7 said the exact idea I had to make the axles. I think the hardest part for me would to have a proper sized axle that won't bind through suspension travel.

      Shift linkage, also should be relatively easy. Cut and weld a Honda linkage, and it attatches to the frame through 2 bolts.

      Clutch linkage could be a little tricky. Either I am going to have to find a way to convert to a hydraulic clutch, or get an older Honda cable clutch trans, and find a way to make it work.

      Now with that said, the largest thing for me is that I can make something that I can find parts for, can slowly upgrade as money is available, and has potential for later upgrades. Say for instance start with a modest B20. Get that fitted in, working, running, and then we can look for the next upgrade. I can't go to the junkyard and find parts for my car, and I don't like buying anything other than local. When was the last time you guys found a 16v in the junkyard?

    24. Junior Member Fireblade RX-7's Avatar
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      01-04-2011 09:45 PM #24
      The more difficult part would be wanting to try and keep the original VW cluster.
      All you need to do is locate the signal wires you need and deal with them accordingly. The tach is simple, it should be a 4 cylinder signal between both Honda and Volkswagen systems, simply hook up the signal wire. The speedometer is the catch though, being that it is cable driven. There might be a simple mechanical solution out there like a gear box type deal that you could use to link speedometer cables together, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Alternatively, you could use the stock cluster skeleton and put in some round gauges of some sort by gutting the stock cluster and making black plastic filler pieces to put a round gauge in a square hole. I've seen it done once before and it looked very nice.

      Axles, Fireblade RX7 said the exact idea I had to make the axles. I think the hardest part for me would to have a proper sized axle that won't bind through suspension travel.
      As for the axles, if you machine the adapter tube so that both shaft halves have some adjustment room where they can move in and out a bit, you can put the whole assembly up in the car, axles and all and play with it until you find a happy location for everything where it won't bind, and then tack weld it in place.

      I was just poking around in the fabrication section when I saw this. It's exactly what I was talking about for the half shafts.



      Clutch linkage could be a little tricky. Either I am going to have to find a way to convert to a hydraulic clutch, or get an older Honda cable clutch trans, and find a way to make it work.
      TDIpusher has dealt with converting his car over to a hydraulic clutch, he can explain the whole thing better than I can. His previous clutch setup involved a CRX clutch cable which did interface with the Volkswagen pedal assembly, which may work if you end up with a cable actuated Honda transmission.

      When was the last time you guys found a 16v in the junkyard?
      Funny thing, that. Around here 16vs pop up from time to time, but Anything other that B18 LS Honda engines tend to be unobtainium in the junkyards here. TDIpusher's 16v came from a junkyard originally... well, half of it did.

    25. 01-04-2011 10:29 PM #25
      Last time I came across a 16v in the junkyard was quite some time and it was slim pickin's for anything on it. And then that makes the transmission a rarity, too. Anyways, I like this, and I may actually try to see this through, I'm fairly confident I could realistically do this for under a grand. That does involve trading parts and services, but it could be a reality in the near future. Thanks Fireblade RX7 for all the input so far. The green rabbit that you posted up, or even the white caddy, do you have any other information on those cars? Also, are you regestered on VAGdrivers? I want to ask the guy about the K-swap for pictures of any work he has done recently. His signiture leads me to believe he has it finished.

    26. Member penuts's Avatar
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      01-05-2011 12:41 AM #26
      This is what hot roding is all about. Using what you got and making it work. Fcuk it Vw motors suck in stock forum and we all know it. Do what you want to do. Its your car and fcuk the haters that will be in the dust cloud behind you. hahahah

    27. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-05-2011 07:31 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by ShaggysGTI View Post
      Last time I came across a 16v in the junkyard was quite some time and it was slim pickin's for anything on it. And then that makes the transmission a rarity, too. Anyways, I like this, and I may actually try to see this through, I'm fairly confident I could realistically do this for under a grand. That does involve trading parts and services, but it could be a reality in the near future. Thanks Fireblade RX7 for all the input so far. The green rabbit that you posted up, or even the white caddy, do you have any other information on those cars? Also, are you regestered on VAGdrivers? I want to ask the guy about the K-swap for pictures of any work he has done recently. His signiture leads me to believe he has it finished.
      the k20 swap caddy had part of his build thread posted in the hybrid forum a while ago. It may be some what difficult to find it again. The rabbit post came even earlier than the caddy. I do remember the motor being a b16. The motor im going to try use is a high compression ls/vtech stroker motor mated with a gsr head. Courtesy of my honda savy brother . you can do some searching and see if you can find a good vtech for that b20 block.

      As for the gauge cluster you might be able to use a mk3 cluster or simply use autometers. By using the autometer setup you are able to standardize all the wiring without any strange conversion. I do believe the honda speed output from the transmission is electrical so it will make using the autometers pretty easy.

      For actuating your clutch i would use a hydraulic setup and skip all the cable nonsense. Thats just a possible annoyance. I would opt either to use a vw clutch master cylinder with a custom line to the honda slave cylinder, or an aftermarket clutch pedal assembly like a tilton or wilwood. If you cant i guess the crx cable can do the trick.

      When you decide to wire this in it would be a good idea to leave all the stock vw body harness in, and simply remove the engine harness a fit it with megasquirt. To engage the vtech solenoid you could use one the outputs for nitrous or meth injection since you are able to activate them based off rpm.

    28. Member hyperformancevw's Avatar
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      01-05-2011 09:09 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by hyperformancevw View Post
      first off...don't do it, but if you are...at least put a k series in it. you can get b series power and probably more torque with a 20/20 and very little custom parts.


      and you can chill with the "armchair mechanic' stuff...built quite a few things just because i dont post a new thread every time i wax my car doesnt mean i dont know how to build something.

      check the n/a 8v top 1/4 mile list. show me a faster street 8v. still had a lot teft in the setup too never did fine tune it. i just dont get it. i will never have a honda motor in any vw. if i was hell bent on a k20 or b series, i would just buy a honda. yes the k20 is a better engine. so is an gm ls series v8. why not just put an ls1 in it?
      Last edited by hyperformancevw; 01-05-2011 at 09:17 AM.
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    29. Junior Member Fireblade RX-7's Avatar
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      1983 RX-7, 1984 GTI
      01-05-2011 10:25 AM #29
      Thanks Fireblade RX7 for all the input so far. The green rabbit that you posted up, or even the white caddy, do you have any other information on those cars? Also, are you regestered on VAGdrivers? I want to ask the guy about the K-swap for pictures of any work he has done recently. His signiture leads me to believe he has it finished.
      No problem, glad I could help. I've only seen pictures of the cars in question and nothing else, unfortunately. This is the only VW site I'm registered on as I don't currently own one, was looking for a Scirocco, but haven't gotten one yet.

      I'm pretty sure that Corrado is running, he has an in car video up of him driving it around.


      hyperformancevw
      i just dont get it. i will never have a honda motor in any vw. if i was hell bent on a k20 or b series, i would just buy a honda. yes the k20 is a better engine. so is an gm ls series v8. why not just put an ls1 in it?
      Well that's your problem that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Unless you have something constructive to add instead of skewed and biased opinions, I'd suggest that you take that crap somewhere else.

    30. Member impulse byer's Avatar
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      01-05-2011 12:58 PM #30
      If you look at the Rabbit It must be right hand drive. Witch would make it easier to swap (imo) but there looks to be no room behind the motor so you would need some sort of aftermarket pedat set up for the b series swap. Cool idea though being an n/a guy myself

    31. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-05-2011 01:40 PM #31
      kinda unrelated but still cool


    32. Member impulse byer's Avatar
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      01-05-2011 10:44 PM #32

    33. Member vwturbofox's Avatar
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      01-06-2011 01:42 PM #33
      i dont like the idea of honda in vw but honda engines are sick crazy rpms heads flow like crazy i say gsr+turbo or nast k20na either one would be fun in a mk2. I love vws but hondas have the better heads+vtec. vtec just kicked in yo

    34. 01-07-2011 07:16 PM #34
      Well so far, and bear in mind this is just thoughts, it seems a B20 and LS trans are in order, due to price and availability.

    35. Member TDiPusher19t's Avatar
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      01-08-2011 02:50 PM #35
      a b20 should be fine...try find a vtech head...the one on the b20 isnt so great...and the ls transmission has pretty tall gearing..im not sure what your plan is for the car though....i did however have the luxury of driving a car with a type r transmission and it is wonderful...always in your power and it has an lsd...a gsr or si transmission would do also.....another swap to look at is the h22. the price of the full swap is not too expensive....check ebay

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