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    Thread: MS1 to MS3

    1. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      01-11-2011 02:47 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by sdezego View Post
      I feel like a kid in a candy store again
      I hear you... I just recently got my gear based boost control working and dialed in (James and Ken fogot to write the open loop code until RC5) and then spent several days playing every time I drove the car. I can't believe I didn't get any speeding tickets.
      The Professor
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      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
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    2. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-11-2011 02:47 PM #27
      I would use IAC1 or IAC2 right off the MS3 card with the digital cluster given your choices.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    3. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      01-11-2011 02:52 PM #28
      I will warn you about one thing with MS3. Once you install the 3X and go sequential ther are LOTS and LOTS of things to play with and tune. Fortuneately you don't have to use them all to get the car running but they can make the motor run like a late model factory setup once you're dialed in. It does require patience though
      The Professor
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      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
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    4. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      01-11-2011 02:54 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      I would use IAC1 or IAC2 right off the MS3 card with the digital cluster given your choices.
      The Professor
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      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
      Linfert Performance: The Megasquirt guy in central Florida Like my Facebook page....
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    5. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-11-2011 03:48 PM #30
      LOTS of other things to play with. It's smart to start in upgrade mode just for sanity's sake. Even 3x but using things like batch/semi seq and waste/COP makes things a ton easier to get you going.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    6. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-21-2011 11:01 PM #31
      Finally had a chance to pull this out and start on it. So far everything has went well and I followed Paul and Jeff's advise above.

      Mods have been made, ign circuit re-routed along with some other changes. MS3 Processor is in, proper USB communications (was getting a strange communication error in TS and needed to go into port settings and up the baud rate to 115k).

      New project built, Looks good on the prehistoric Stim that I have, but there are a lot of settings I need to review and verify before I plug this into the car...

      Did the sensors, WB, etc and imported my .vex files. Went though most of the settings once, but need to go through them once more and verify. There were some new fiedls that I am not accustomed to and need to verify what they mean. Dwell settings for instance are not 1:1 from MT and I am not sure I ever really looked at a lot of that stuff when I started using TS.

      I will update the post with any trials and tribulations once I get things wrapped up.
      Build: Project sc2020

      My G60 now on MS3 | 4Cyl Torque Plate Rental | 02M Mounts

    7. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-21-2011 11:42 PM #32
      Watch some of the injector fields, the curves, opening times, etc can be different from MS1. I haven't looked at the included file in a while, but go through this stuff and post up anything you're not confident in setting.
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    8. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-22-2011 10:45 AM #33
      I should mentioned that I loaded MS3 Firmware V1.0 that was recently released.

      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Watch some of the injector fields, the curves, opening times, etc can be different from MS1. I haven't looked at the included file in a while, but go through this stuff and post up anything you're not confident in setting.
      Thanks Paul. I am sure this will help others too that are making the leap. I haven't/won't change any field I am not confident with at least not w/o researching. I know that type of stuff can offer a world of hurt trying to figure out some nuance down the road. Yea, they are a lot of those settings that I have not idea about and really don't care initially as long as the defaults from the V1.0 .ini are "OK".

      I am hoping the included .ini general settings are good for the most. Although the MPX4250 MAP sensor was not selected as the default and was set to Custom, so I hope that it not an indication.

      Here are things that I would like to verify thus far:


      1. Dwell settings
        MS1 has Cranking, Running and Min Discharge (was running 6.0, 2.5 and 0.1 respectively)
        MS3 has Cranking Dwell, Max Dwell Dur, Max Spark Dur (other settings that are Grey-ed out)

        is the relationship:

        MS1 MS3
        Cranking Cranking
        Running Maximum Dwell Duration
        Min Discharge ??
        ?? < Maximum Spark Dur (def = 1.0)

        EDIT: Confirmed that MS1 Min Discharge = MS2/3 Max Spar Dur, however see this note -> http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...spark+duration

      2. Knock settings

        Using KnockSense(tm) and assume signal is Low?? but not sure if I need "Pullup" or "None" set. assume "None", but Pullup is the default when you enable Knock on. MS1 did not have these settings.

        EDIT: Found some info under the MSII manual -> http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...ware.htm#knock , however the actual option for the Pullup/Down Field has changed. Info found here:

        Pullup/down on input Whether an internal pull-resistor should be applied and in what direction. Setting to 'same as' means that if the connection to the knock module breaks then the Megasquirt will automatically assume that knock is happening and pull timing. Set it to this unless you know otherwise.

      3. Distrub settings

        Thought there would be an option for Dizzy. Use "Basic Trigger". Skip Pulses is set to 3 by default, but curious about this? Also, set Spark Hardware to LEDs Spark since I am coming off of the Led as it was from MS1.

        EDIT: In looking through some literature (http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/distributor.html), maybe the Skip Pulse is suppose to be 3 for a 4cyl, but I have not found the exact piece that explains it.

      4. AE

        This is the one area I think may be changed from the default?? Default is Enhanced Enrich = off. Options are EAE, X-Tau and X-Tau with CLT Correction I left other settings as default in Accel Wizard.

      Last edited by sdezego; 01-23-2011 at 11:36 AM.
      Build: Project sc2020

      My G60 now on MS3 | 4Cyl Torque Plate Rental | 02M Mounts

    9. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 06:27 AM #34
      Concerning AE: My advice is to leave AE in normal mode until the car is fairly well tuned . EAE is constantly operating (even during cranking!) and can really send you on a wild goose chase if your base VE map and warmup settings etc aren't tuned well.
      The Professor
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      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
      Linfert Performance: The Megasquirt guy in central Florida Like my Facebook page....
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    10. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 10:12 AM #35
      Thanks Jeff will do. I will probably hook it up, set the TPS and fire it up today if I can squeeze in some time.

      In looking at the coil dwell values, I find so much disparity as to what is out there in the MS forums, here, etc. Curious what others are running for the stock MkII/G60 round style coil?

      I started looking at these again as there is so much disparity and when I originally installed MS years back and I fried the first VB921 for no good reason. I ended up changing some of the values slightly, but who knows what the root cause was and could have been even a defective VB. Full thread here -> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ighlight=dwell

      Anyway, I may leave the default Spark duration at 1ms as opposed to the .1 that I was running and see if the VB gets warm.

      I am also gathering that the BIPs appear to be "better", but I still have a few VBs
      Build: Project sc2020

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    11. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 12:05 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by sdezego View Post
      Thanks Jeff will do. I will probably hook it up, set the TPS and fire it up today if I can squeeze in some time.

      In looking at the coil dwell values, I find so much disparity as to what is out there in the MS forums, here, etc. Curious what others are running for the stock MkII/G60 round style coil?

      I started looking at these again as there is so much disparity and when I originally installed MS years back and I fried the first VB921 for no good reason. I ended up changing some of the values slightly, but who knows what the root cause was and could have been even a defective VB. Full thread here -> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ighlight=dwell

      Anyway, I may leave the default Spark duration at 1ms as opposed to the .1 that I was running and see if the VB gets warm.

      I am also gathering that the BIPs appear to be "better", but I still have a few VBs
      Here are the ignition settings I use for the old school coil. 6 ms cranking dwell, 2.8 ms max dwell, and 1.5ms max spark duration. But I do run a BIP373 with that. I'd go with 6 ms cranking, 2-2.5 ms max and 1 ms max spark duration.

      BIPs are more than just better than a VB921, they are almost indestructable. Paul and the guys at DIYAutotune have tried to kill a BIP and other than by physically damaging them have not been successful.
      The Professor
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      92 Corrado OBD2 ABA-T (BW EFR 6258) Powered by MS3Pro
      Linfert Performance: The Megasquirt guy in central Florida Like my Facebook page....
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    12. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 01:39 PM #37
      I had a little bit to plug it into the car and set the TPS and attempt to start.

      No trigger signal during crank . It works fine on the old Stim (V2) that I have.

      Here is what I set:

      • TachSelect ->VRin
      • VRoutInv -> Tsel
      • 5v to Hall (as it was)
      • Both Pots Turned fully CCW until clicks
      • Signal on Pin 24 as it was



      Verified 5v at the Hall and Removed the pullup I previously had between the Signal and 5v. I tried different settings on TS w/ no avail. I opened the tooth/trigger logger but saw nothing, however, I now see you actually have the click "Start" for it to start capturing (thought that was just to save the log, oops). I will retry it, but watching the tach in TS showed nothing.

      LEDs show no indication when hooked up to the car (fine on stim), but sensors, TPS and everything else looks good on car.

      I played with the trigger settings rising/falling, etc with no avail and even tried to play with the pots. I did not use the VR pullup as was suggested and just followed the link from the 1st page.

      I will try and run some more tests later but the only thing that is different on the car vs stim (other than the physical trigger signal going to pin 24) is that I have/(and Had) Knocksense hooked up and configed via JS10. I may try to disconnect the the sig wire just to see.

      I have wired up the tacho out via IAC1 and got it ready for the VSS in using the Opto circuit (suggestions from Jeff) but they are not hooked up in the loom.

      Click for larger pics:








      Last edited by sdezego; 01-24-2011 at 01:42 PM.
      Build: Project sc2020

      My G60 now on MS3 | 4Cyl Torque Plate Rental | 02M Mounts

    13. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 01:45 PM #38
      Note in case you don't see it: Tachselect is jumped to VRin as mentioned above, but the jump is on the topside of the board.
      Build: Project sc2020

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    14. Member Prof315's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 03:32 PM #39
      You might try switching Tsel to VRout instead of VRoutINV. All of my MS2 and MS3 installs have worked best with non-inverted VR signals. ( but from what I can tell MS1 works better with inverted signals....)
      The Professor
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    15. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 04:27 PM #40
      Inverted/non inverted shouldn't matter you can change the input trigger edge in the software. What does a tooth log look like? Make sure if you invert the trigger you cycle power after or it doesn't take. However I think that a tooth log should show something no matter what with a distro... can you pulse VRIN to ground to see if it triggers?

      For some of the other questions.. I use a 3.5ms max dwell on the VW internally amplified coils. Not sure if the BIP/VBs should be any different I use mostly internal amp coils. The VB's I've killed by the truckload.. the BIPs need to be heated in an oven to kill them, a very hot oven!
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    16. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 07:30 PM #41
      I tried the tooth and Trigger logging and got nothing. I tried unplugging the dist plug and tried shorting the sig pin to grnd intermittently and then tried sending it to the 5v pin. Nothing.

      I also tried Rising and falling and recycling power will ill attempts.

      I had a spare 1.8t 60-2 VR sesor, so I figured what they hey, let me hook it up and run a screw driver across it and immediately I heard the FP cycle and starting seeing activity on the tooth logger

      I even had a spare ABA 1 tooth dist, so i plugged that in to try and get a signal w/o avail.

      Not sure what to try next. Moving the wire to VRout instead of VRInv? I tried setting the software to both Rising and falling with no results. hmmm...

      I did not try to power the hall with 12v instead or 5v, but I suppose I could...
      Build: Project sc2020

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    17. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 08:18 PM #42
      12v made no diff. Hooked back up the VR sensor in my hand again to make sure I wasn't dreaming and I was not. I guess this circuit will not work with this config.

      I can try VRout -> TSel (probably have to be tomorrow), but I don;t see how/why that would make a diff. unless the software is not inverting it properly when switching to Rising/Falling
      Build: Project sc2020

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    18. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-24-2011 10:11 PM #43
      You sure you have +/signal/- right on the hall sender? Can you try changing the 'Cam Input (if used)" to "none"?
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    19. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 08:23 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      You sure you have +/signal/- right on the hall sender?
      Yep. Remember this was a running car on MS1, so the only aspect that I changed was that I pulled out the pullup. I may try putting the pullup back in just for giggles and try it as it is easy enough by the way I originally created it (soldered the 1kR to a clipped ATC fuse and Fuse holder bridging the + and signal in the harness). I don;t think this will work though becuase when I first attempted to start, I forgot to pull it out and immediately remembered when I saw no tacho. I did not try every comb though with rising/falling, etc.

      The VR pullup diagram appears this is the only diff and shows VRout in use, however I assume this was just a matter of convenience in the doc. It does say to give 6 turns on R56 when going this route.

      I will do some playing today and try to find out what the root cause and if it truly is an issue on VROUTinv and not just "get it working".

      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Can you try changing the 'Cam Input (if used)" to "none"?
      No which seemed strange to me. The only options in TS are "JS10" or "MS3xCam In". Since the "Use Cam Signal if Available* above that field is set to off, I wasn't really worried in the assumption they are mutually inclusive.
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    20. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 08:26 AM #45
      I may review the VR Circuit just to make sure everything is copacetic from when I did the original build years ago (since the Vr cir was never in use), but in my mind, I ruled that out last night when it worked using a VR crank sensor in hand.
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    21. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 10:40 AM #46
      I know the VR circuit in non mod form works with a 5v hall, I've used it a few times on my installs as well as every customer unit since I made that post. Double check your parts (especially R52/56). A hall and VR put out very different signals, I wouldn't rule a wrong part out!
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    22. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 11:51 AM #47
      well, I futzed with it for a good bit this morning. Tried every combination of using rising/falling, messing with R52 and R56, w and w/o a pullup. Nothing. Retested using VR sensor which worked fine.

      Swapped over Tsel from VRoutInv to VRout and still nothing UNTIL I turned R56 about 7 turns CW from full CCW. I did not play with anything in between (and not sure if I should??), I just started there becuase that is what is in the manual.

      The ABA dist and G60 seemed to behave the same (expected). I dunno man

      She runs again

      So, moving on: When I had TS set to Falling Edge I had a Trigger Angle of around 0* , but the timing seemed to vary a bit with RPM. So, I switched it to Rising Edge and set the T/A which amounted to 76* and matches TS. I turned map on and checked it at a few spots and they did match. I was expecting a T/A of 60*. Anyway, is this all normal? Should it be set to Rising typically?

      Paul, if there is anything specific you want me to look at and try for the sake of human cause, I would be glad to do it I am pretty sure I tired the VRinv with the same comb, but I suppose it is possible that I only tried it turning R52 and R56 and not just R56.. I tried so much stuff, it all kind of flows together.
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    23. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 03:25 PM #48
      Glad you got it, check the part numbers on R52/56 maybe you have them in backward?

      You need to have a trigger angle greater then your max advance, and as you noticed you might have erratic timing if you don't adhere to that simple rule. There's no problem with a 78deg trigger, you can adjust your distro to match it but I wouldn't really worry about it. The rising/falling just needs to be what works, it's more important if one edge of the trigger wheel isn't machined precisely (or if you're using a toothed/missing setup).
      -Paul
      1995 GTI VR6 - Retired - 12.90@106 R32 power - 12.833@106 12v power
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    24. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 03:49 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Glad you got it, check the part numbers on R52/56 maybe you have them in backward?
      I'll check it out. However, when looking at the V3 BOM, I noticed this statement: Please note that a few component values may have been tweaked - especially in the VR input circuit, but possibly others as well.

      Now, I built this setup 4years ago, so I am wondering if something changed in the build
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    25. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      01-25-2011 03:58 PM #50
      Good thing I am a pack rat and still have the printed BOM and assy instructions from back when. Assuming that my DOM from DYI was the same, there appears to be a diff in U7

      New BOM shows:
      1 1 U7 LM2904NFS-ND 0.50 VR Sensor OpAmp Dual SGL SUPP HS 8DIP

      OLD BOM shows U7 as MC34072APOS-ND

      hmmm, I am going to check all of this out including making sure R52/56 are in correctly.
      Build: Project sc2020

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