MS1 to MS3

[Prof315]

Thanks Jeff will do. I will probably hook it up, set the TPS and fire it up today if I can squeeze in some time.

In looking at the coil dwell values, I find so much disparity as to what is out there in the MS forums, here, etc. Curious what others are running for the stock MkII/G60 round style coil?

I started looking at these again as there is so much disparity and when I originally installed MS years back and I fried the first VB921 for no good reason. I ended up changing some of the values slightly, but who knows what the root cause was and could have been even a defective VB. Full thread here -> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ighlight=dwell

Anyway, I may leave the default Spark duration at 1ms as opposed to the .1 that I was running and see if the VB gets warm.

I am also gathering that the BIPs appear to be "better", but I still have a few VBs

Here are the ignition settings I use for the old school coil. 6 ms cranking dwell, 2.8 ms max dwell, and 1.5ms max spark duration. But I do run a BIP373 with that. I'd go with 6 ms cranking, 2-2.5 ms max and 1 ms max spark duration.

BIPs are more than just better than a VB921, they are almost indestructable. Paul and the guys at DIYAutotune have tried to kill a BIP and other than by physically damaging them have not been successful.

[sdezego]

I had a little bit to plug it into the car and set the TPS and attempt to start.

No trigger signal during crank . It works fine on the old Stim (V2) that I have.

Here is what I set:

• TachSelect ->VRin
• VRoutInv -> Tsel
• 5v to Hall (as it was)
• Both Pots Turned fully CCW until clicks
• Signal on Pin 24 as it was

Verified 5v at the Hall and Removed the pullup I previously had between the Signal and 5v. I tried different settings on TS w/ no avail. I opened the tooth/trigger logger but saw nothing, however, I now see you actually have the click "Start" for it to start capturing (thought that was just to save the log, oops). I will retry it, but watching the tach in TS showed nothing.

LEDs show no indication when hooked up to the car (fine on stim), but sensors, TPS and everything else looks good on car.

I played with the trigger settings rising/falling, etc with no avail and even tried to play with the pots. I did not use the VR pullup as was suggested and just followed the link from the 1st page.

I will try and run some more tests later but the only thing that is different on the car vs stim (other than the physical trigger signal going to pin 24) is that I have/(and Had) Knocksense hooked up and configed via JS10. I may try to disconnect the the sig wire just to see.

I have wired up the tacho out via IAC1 and got it ready for the VSS in using the Opto circuit (suggestions from Jeff) but they are not hooked up in the loom.

Click for larger pics:

[sdezego]

Note in case you don't see it: Tachselect is jumped to VRin as mentioned above, but the jump is on the topside of the board.

[Prof315]

You might try switching Tsel to VRout instead of VRoutINV. All of my MS2 and MS3 installs have worked best with non-inverted VR signals. ( but from what I can tell MS1 works better with inverted signals....)

[need_a_VR6]

Inverted/non inverted shouldn't matter you can change the input trigger edge in the software. What does a tooth log look like? Make sure if you invert the trigger you cycle power after or it doesn't take. However I think that a tooth log should show something no matter what with a distro... can you pulse VRIN to ground to see if it triggers?

For some of the other questions.. I use a 3.5ms max dwell on the VW internally amplified coils. Not sure if the BIP/VBs should be any different I use mostly internal amp coils. The VB's I've killed by the truckload.. the BIPs need to be heated in an oven to kill them, a very hot oven!

[sdezego]

I tried the tooth and Trigger logging and got nothing. I tried unplugging the dist plug and tried shorting the sig pin to grnd intermittently and then tried sending it to the 5v pin. Nothing.

I also tried Rising and falling and recycling power will ill attempts.

I had a spare 1.8t 60-2 VR sesor, so I figured what they hey, let me hook it up and run a screw driver across it and immediately I heard the FP cycle and starting seeing activity on the tooth logger

I even had a spare ABA 1 tooth dist, so i plugged that in to try and get a signal w/o avail.

Not sure what to try next. Moving the wire to VRout instead of VRInv? I tried setting the software to both Rising and falling with no results. hmmm...

I did not try to power the hall with 12v instead or 5v, but I suppose I could...

[sdezego]

12v made no diff. Hooked back up the VR sensor in my hand again to make sure I wasn't dreaming and I was not. I guess this circuit will not work with this config.

I can try VRout -> TSel (probably have to be tomorrow), but I don;t see how/why that would make a diff. unless the software is not inverting it properly when switching to Rising/Falling

[need_a_VR6]

You sure you have +/signal/- right on the hall sender? Can you try changing the 'Cam Input (if used)" to "none"?

[sdezego]

You sure you have +/signal/- right on the hall sender?

Yep. Remember this was a running car on MS1, so the only aspect that I changed was that I pulled out the pullup. I may try putting the pullup back in just for giggles and try it as it is easy enough by the way I originally created it (soldered the 1kR to a clipped ATC fuse and Fuse holder bridging the + and signal in the harness). I don;t think this will work though becuase when I first attempted to start, I forgot to pull it out and immediately remembered when I saw no tacho. I did not try every comb though with rising/falling, etc.

The VR pullup diagram appears this is the only diff and shows VRout in use, however I assume this was just a matter of convenience in the doc. It does say to give 6 turns on R56 when going this route.

I will do some playing today and try to find out what the root cause and if it truly is an issue on VROUTinv and not just "get it working".

Can you try changing the 'Cam Input (if used)" to "none"?

No which seemed strange to me. The only options in TS are "JS10" or "MS3xCam In". Since the "Use Cam Signal if Available* above that field is set to off, I wasn't really worried in the assumption they are mutually inclusive.

[sdezego]

I may review the VR Circuit just to make sure everything is copacetic from when I did the original build years ago (since the Vr cir was never in use), but in my mind, I ruled that out last night when it worked using a VR crank sensor in hand.

[need_a_VR6]

I know the VR circuit in non mod form works with a 5v hall, I've used it a few times on my installs as well as every customer unit since I made that post. Double check your parts (especially R52/56). A hall and VR put out very different signals, I wouldn't rule a wrong part out!

[sdezego]

well, I futzed with it for a good bit this morning. Tried every combination of using rising/falling, messing with R52 and R56, w and w/o a pullup. Nothing. Retested using VR sensor which worked fine.

Swapped over Tsel from VRoutInv to VRout and still nothing UNTIL I turned R56 about 7 turns CW from full CCW. I did not play with anything in between (and not sure if I should??), I just started there becuase that is what is in the manual.

The ABA dist and G60 seemed to behave the same (expected). I dunno man

She runs again

So, moving on: When I had TS set to Falling Edge I had a Trigger Angle of around 0* , but the timing seemed to vary a bit with RPM. So, I switched it to Rising Edge and set the T/A which amounted to 76* and matches TS. I turned map on and checked it at a few spots and they did match. I was expecting a T/A of 60*. Anyway, is this all normal? Should it be set to Rising typically?

Paul, if there is anything specific you want me to look at and try for the sake of human cause, I would be glad to do it I am pretty sure I tired the VRinv with the same comb, but I suppose it is possible that I only tried it turning R52 and R56 and not just R56.. I tried so much stuff, it all kind of flows together.

[need_a_VR6]

Glad you got it, check the part numbers on R52/56 maybe you have them in backward?

You need to have a trigger angle greater then your max advance, and as you noticed you might have erratic timing if you don't adhere to that simple rule. There's no problem with a 78deg trigger, you can adjust your distro to match it but I wouldn't really worry about it. The rising/falling just needs to be what works, it's more important if one edge of the trigger wheel isn't machined precisely (or if you're using a toothed/missing setup).

[sdezego]

Glad you got it, check the part numbers on R52/56 maybe you have them in backward?

I'll check it out. However, when looking at the V3 BOM, I noticed this statement: Please note that a few component values may have been tweaked - especially in the VR input circuit, but possibly others as well.

Now, I built this setup 4years ago, so I am wondering if something changed in the build

[sdezego]

Good thing I am a pack rat and still have the printed BOM and assy instructions from back when. Assuming that my DOM from DYI was the same, there appears to be a diff in U7

New BOM shows:
1 1 U7 LM2904NFS-ND 0.50 VR Sensor OpAmp Dual SGL SUPP HS 8DIP

OLD BOM shows U7 as MC34072APOS-ND

hmmm, I am going to check all of this out including making sure R52/56 are in correctly.

[sdezego]

Also, going to check this:

Step 51
...
h.) Install and solder C31 {399-4329-ND, 0.1µF, 104 marking OR 399-2017-ND, 0.001µF}. This is located as the 4th cap in the row of "vertical" capacitors above the text "Bowling" in the copyright notice.

Note: A 399-2017-ND 0.001 µF capacitor should be substituted if MegaSquirt will be receiving higher frequency tach inputs. The smaller capacitor helps to mainiain the signal integrity and timing. This 0.001 µF capacitor is especially useful for high tooth count wheels including all crank wheels that have more than one pulse per ignition event such as the popular 36-1 or 60-2 missing tooth crank wheels.

[sdezego]

Good thing I am a pack rat and still have the printed BOM and assy instructions from back when. Assuming that my DOM from DYI was the same, there appears to be a diff in U7

New BOM shows:
1 1 U7 LM2904NFS-ND 0.50 VR Sensor OpAmp Dual SGL SUPP HS 8DIP

OLD BOM shows U7 as MC34072APOS-ND

hmmm, I am going to check all of this out including making sure R52/56 are in correctly.

R52/56 are correct however, I do have the older U7 (MC34072APOS-ND)

[need_a_VR6]

Having a different op-amp could totally have caused it.. but I wouldn't recommend just swapping it out now that it all works!

[Prof315]

Agreed, it ain't broke so why fix it.

[sdezego]

I have no intentions in swapping out U7, etc at this point although it is socketed, LOL.

I was really just trying to get to the bottom of why I had nuances that you guys had not experienced. I am sure someone will run into this down the road at some point

Today, I will load my new timing map as I did not like my imported .vex from MS1. Also will hook up the tacho out via IAC1 and VSS in. Tidy some other stuff and retune

[sdezego]

No drives yet, but a good amount of runtime in the garage, tacho out on IAC1 worked perfectly with no additional mods

LM1 reads slightly different than TS (maybe .2-.3 AFR) (both are grounded at the same place). This was the case in MS1, but I was able to tweak with the cross over voltage to make them precise. I checked the analog out channel on the LM and it was set as I orig programmed it to 0-5v/10-20AFR, so I am not sure why there is a discrep. I did set the proper WB in TS-> Tools->Calibrate AFR Table.

The only thing that is odd is that every time I unlock sensors and go into that menu, the field reverts to the default Narrowband. I know it is writing the WB settings properly to the controller, and I am sure this is just a software "feature" otherwise the A/F reading would be waay off.

wondering if I should try going back to real LM1 settings at 0v = 7.35:1 AFR, and 5v=22.39 AFR or maybe just tweak the custom AFR->Voltage settings in TS and leave it at ~ 10-20

[Prof315]

Good deal Shawn!

As far as the wideband goes, you could tweak it but having heard about Bruce Bowling's discussion at last year's Megameet concerning wideband accuracy I don't get overly concerned about a couple of tenths of discrepancy.

[need_a_VR6]

I've used the LM1 a few times and I've always had a slight offset with it (LM1 AFR vs TS AFR). I think it comes from how the LM1 usually gets grounded (through cig lighter, or other spot the MS ECU isn't directly grounded to).

[sdezego]

agreed, but I wound't be able to sleep at night knowing the readings are different

So, I tried setting them both to the LM1 settings 0v = 7.35:1 AFR, and 5v=22.39, with same offset (kind of expected). So, I just went to the AFR calib in TS and set custom and played around a bit. 0v = 7.2 and 5v=22.39 seemed to put them spot on with each other.

So, this all got me thinking (not obsessing, just thinking). I am wondering if it is best to use Lambda settings from the LM1 out (set via programmer) and in the TS project. The reason I am asking this is due to 10% ethanol which is here to stay. If the LM1 is outputting Lambda instead of a Converted AFR with stoich setting to 14.7 (vs 14.3), I am wondering if it is better to use λ. ..just a thought

First Drive was and it is pretty much tuned again. I left Acc Enrichment as basic, but did have to change the stock settings to get rid of a small flat spot coming off idle that I did not like. May need to play with it a bit more, but it is pretty darn good as is.

[Prof315]

agreed, but I wound't be able to sleep at night knowing the readings are different

So, I tried setting them both to the LM1 settings 0v = 7.35:1 AFR, and 5v=22.39, with same offset (kind of expected). So, I just went to the AFR calib in TS and set custom and played around a bit. 0v = 7.2 and 5v=22.39 seemed to put them spot on with each other.

So, this all got me thinking (not obsessing, just thinking). I am wondering if it is best to use Lambda settings from the LM1 out (set via programmer) and in the TS project. The reason I am asking this is due to 10% ethanol which is here to stay. If the LM1 is outputting Lambda instead of a Converted AFR with stoich setting to 14.7 (vs 14.3), I am wondering if it is better to use λ. ..just a thought

First Drive was and it is pretty much tuned again. I left Acc Enrichment as basic, but did have to change the stock settings to get rid of a small flat spot coming off idle that I did not like. May need to play with it a bit more, but it is pretty darn good as is.

Pretty amazing isn't it? I've been messing with my boost table the last few days trying to find the line between fun/ spirited aceeleration and hang on, oh boy the cops are not going to like this.

As far as Lambda vs. AFR...... it would be worth a try that's for sure. If you do try let us know.

[need_a_VR6]

Don't sweat the AFR thing, your meter is really outputting scaled lambda... it'll read 14.7 on the display but it'll really be 14.3 if you're using E10... or 9.8:1 if you're on E85 if you're really at stoich. It gets really confusing when you use gas AFR numbers to tune other fuels.

[sdezego]

So, I tuned it over the weekend (really it tuned itself) I still had a small flat spot coming off idle if I tromped it a bit. I played with the PW adder a bit for TPS, but was still not 100% happy. So, I turned AE from 100 TPS Dot (was default) to 60% (40% MAPDot).

Loving it!

Also got VSS and Gear indicator working, but had to move the VSS signal out of the Opto Conditioner and ran it straight into JS7. It gets an erratic spike ever so often, but no big deal. I just set the graph in TS to range only from 0-150. Would be nice if you could set up filter parms, but I guess this is pretty unique of an issue.

[Prof315]

So, I tuned it over the weekend (really it tuned itself) I still had a small flat spot coming off idle if I tromped it a bit. I played with the PW adder a bit for TPS, but was still not 100% happy. So, I turned AE from 100 TPS Dot (was default) to 60% (40% MAPDot).

Loving it!

Also got VSS and Gear indicator working, but had to move the VSS signal out of the Opto Conditioner and ran it straight into JS7. It gets an erratic spike ever so often, but no big deal. I just set the graph in TS to range only from 0-150. Would be nice if you could set up filter parms, but I guess this is pretty unique of an issue.

I dunno it's certainly a Corrado issue

[need_a_VR6]

I dunno it's certainly a Corrado issue

What isn't? That using the output from the cluster with a cable speedo, or using the hall sender vss from a 91+?

[sdezego]

What isn't? That using the output from the cluster with a cable speedo, or using the hall sender vss from a 91+?

no speedo cable cluster.

Later 91+ Cluster using respective VSS on the trans drive. When I tried going through the opto first, I tried direct sig from the VSS as well as VSS signal out of Cluster via pin 7 (which branches out from cluster to Cruise, spoiler, ABS, etc).

Currently running T28/Pin7 direct to JS7 and working fine (just get a noise spike every so often).

[sdezego]

HArd to believe almost a year has already gone by Anyway, I have been driving it a few days a week since I tuned it and it is been great.

I have done little since then, but decided to revisit a few things. Shadowlogger has given me a new breath of enthusiasm

1.) Upgrade software. still running 1.02. I have been watching the fix list. ASE taper being a big one for me and the Knock fixes to name a few.

2.) Q: What are you using for Lag factors? I ran across a thread that made me think I should look into these.

3.) AE - At the time, I had to do some odd settings (at least I thought odd) to get a nice smooth romp. It was prob 95% when I left it and never bothered me. But why not make it perfect right? Now wondering if some of this might have been related to #1.

4.) Need to adjust my A/F Targets for better Fuel mileage Cruise

Anyway, thoughts on #2?

[need_a_VR6]

For afr lags, use a fuel cut limiter and set different rpm targets. Slam into them at various loads while logging. Check to see time difference between pw equal 0 and full lean. Populate table.

[sdezego]

Shouldn't the A/F Lag be static for said device? i.e. 80 for LM1, 70 for LC1, etc?

I saw I still have the defaults of 60 for AFR and 50 for the others, which are overly normalized values based on what I am learning.

Curious what values others are using

[need_a_VR6]

Sorry my post was to address transport delay.

For lags, I just run the defaults, I have had no need to change them. Even on ms2 I used those values.

I dont know what the exact sample rate is for ms3 i/o but that plays into it as well. The faster the sample, the less actual averaging happens.

[sdezego]

I figured it is time for an update. I had some time to really fine tune a few aspects. I wanted to further improve a respectable idle AFR (even though I am running 42# inj on a 1.8L PG) and I wanted to tune for better mileage as I had with my MS1 tune.

I upgraded the firmware to 1 RC 18 as there are some major improvements and one that I like very much which includes Time based ASE (After Start Enrichment).

One thing I had to change after the flash was I had to revisit my Priming/Cranking PW. It would not hot restart without pedal (but note I do not run any IAC currently so not sure if that has any effect, but I never have). I am talking about an immediate hot restart (turn off from op temp and start). I had to make the PW pretty much on target with the idle PW and viola.

IDLE: I finally implemented PID AFR/EGO control vs simple. I really fought with this a bit and initially was getting worse results with AFR oscillations at idle. I played with the P and I terms and ultimately, I saw that there were some IDLE BINs that were causing the PID to go awry in some instances. All, I can say now it W0W! I have a idle much like it was with the factory ECU and 26# injectors

ROCK STEADY ARF at IDLE

P.S. I did increase the LAG values to 80% across the board and 90% for WB 02