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    Thread: My governor is a retard.

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      02-21-2011 02:06 PM #51
      Isn't the real issue here the rising cost of retirement benefits and health care (including health care in retirement)?

      ABC News had some statistics on the other night about how much better these benefits are for public sector workers. http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2011...te-sector.html

      RETIREMENT BENEFITS

      Public sector workers also are significantly more likely to have traditional pension plans – called “defined benefit” plans. The latest data from BLS showed 20 percent of workers in the private sector have pension plans. In the public sector, defined benefit plan coverage is four times greater -- about 79 percent.

      HEALTH CARE BENEFITS

      The latest Kaiser Family Foundation survey on the costs of health insurance showed government workers are more likely to be offered health insurance while they work and in retirement.

      In retail firms, for example, only 48 percent of workers were covered by health benefits offered by their firm (the worst industry for insurance coverage), compared to 80 percent of workers in state and local government (the best industry for insurance coverage).

      And those state/local government employees are paying less for coverage than their private sector neighbors.

      Data from Kaiser shows the average employee cost for “family” health coverage was around $3,700 in the latest year. Employees in the service sector pay about $4,200 for similar family coverage, mostly because their employers require a bigger contribution from the employee to get the benefit.
      While there are arguments that the public sector employees gave up pay for these benefits, I'm not sure that shortfall in pay is enough to make up for the long term costs of the health care and retirement benefits.

      WAGES

      The latest data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (2009) show that government workers make about 5 percent more than private sector workers on average.

      But, as can be seen in the following chart, the headline numbers hide some major disparities beyond the headlines.

      Average Annual Wage
      Federal Govt. Workers $67,756
      State Police $61,000
      Local Firefighters $60,572
      State Govt. Workers $48,742
      State Legislative Workers $48,129
      Government (all types) $47,552
      Private (total sector) $45,155
      Local Govt. Workers $43,140
      Local Schools $41,113

      Average Annual Wage
      Private Sector CPA $71,216
      Federal Govt. CPA $67,531
      Local Govt. CPA $64,050

      SOURCE: BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, 2009
      Also, I don't believe that these benefits are taxed, thus making them even more lucrative. On the other hand, as a business owner myself, what my company pays for my health care IS TAXED by the government.



      You might also review this website: http://wallstreetpit.com/16385-the-t...private-sector



      And this one: http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/166349.html

      Protesters at the Wisconsin capitol enter their sixth day of battling Governor Scott Walker and his plan to end collective bargaining for some state employees. According to the governor, the state is facing a $137 million budget shortfall for the current fiscal year and a $3.6 billion shortfall for the next.



      The bill for Wisconsin is estimated to save $30 million by the first of July and $300 million during the next two years. The governor says in order to achieve those savings; public employees must pay half the cost for their pensions and roughly 12 percent of their healthcare costs. If the bill does not pass, Mr. Walker has said he will lay off up to 6,000 public employees. Gather.com



      Highlights



      According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (2009), government workers make about 5 percent more than private sector workers on average.



      In 2010, the Bureau of Labor Statistics data showed that 36.2 percent of public sector workers were unionized. That's compared to a 6.9 percent union membership rate for private sector workers.



      Public sector workers are significantly more likely to have traditional pension plans - called "defined benefit" plans.



      The latest Kaiser Family Foundation survey on the costs of health insurance shows government workers are more likely to be offered health insurance while they work and in retirement.



      Wages



      According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (2009), government workers make about 5 percent more than private sector workers on average.



      Local teachers make 9 percent less than the average private sector worker.



      And federal employees are substantially better paid than the average state worker.



      Union Membership



      In 2010, the Bureau of Labor Statistics data showed that 36.2 percent of public sector workers were unionized. That's compared to a 6.9 percent union membership rate for private sector workers.



      Workers in education, training, and library occupations had the highest unionization rate at 37.1 percent.



      Retirement Benefits



      Public sector workers are significantly more likely to have traditional pension plans - called "defined benefit" plans.



      According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 20 percent of workers in the private sector have pension plans. In the public sector, defined benefit plan coverage is four times greater -- about 79 percent.



      Health Care Benefits



      The latest Kaiser Family Foundation survey on the costs of health insurance shows government workers are more likely to be offered health insurance while they work and in retirement.



      State/local government employees are paying less for health care coverage than their private sector neighbors.



      In Wisconsin



      Wisconsin state workers have a median wage of $45,691. That's 22 percent more than the median wage earned by workers in the private sector.



      The state workforce is much better educated than the private-sector workforce.



      In Wisconsin, more than 60 percent of state workers have at least a bachelor's degree, compared with just over 20 percent in the private sector.



      Wisconsin has an estimated $3.6 billion deficit.



      SB/SM/DB

    2. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 02:08 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Not to be a dick, but lots of people have to take work home with them.
      No kidding. I've logged about 20 hours so far this holiday weekend.

      It sure will be nice when June 20th rolls around and I have 2+ months paid vacation.... oh.... wait.... I only get 3 weeks paid vacation and 9 paid holidays. I worked Christmas week. I don't get a spring break. I don't have tenure. I don't have a company paid pension. I pay for a pretty big chunk of my benefits package.

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      02-21-2011 02:14 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      It sure will be nice when June 20th rolls around and I have 2+ months paid vacation.... oh.... wait.... I only get 3 weeks paid vacation and 9 paid holidays. I worked Christmas week. I don't get a spring break. I don't have tenure. I don't have a company paid pension. I pay for a pretty big chunk of my benefits package.
      We have this uniquely American attitude that if things suck for me, they ought to suck at least as much for everybody else.

      Rather than saying, if somebody else has it better than me, I should fight to have what they have.

      I really don't get that. I guess it's the legacy of Protestant self-denial that we inherited from the Puritans or something.

      -Andrew L
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      02-21-2011 02:17 PM #54
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

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      02-21-2011 02:19 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      We have this uniquely American attitude that if things suck for me, they ought to suck at least as much for everybody else.
      I promise you that such an attitude is not uniquely american.

      If teachers want to be regarded and paid as professionals, it is appropriate to ask why they don't maintain the kind of work schedule other professionals do.

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      02-21-2011 02:21 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.
      i have 0 paid time off and pay for 100% of my benefits and pay additional taxes (self employed), and yes, it would be nice to have paid vacation, but no, i wouldn't put that as a priority in my decisions.
      Demokratikally Elekted Fist Lieutenant of the Outside Cavalry of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

    7. 02-21-2011 02:23 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      We have this uniquely American attitude that if things suck for me, they ought to suck at least as much for everybody else.
      That isn't it at all. It's just that the rest of us haven't got unrealistic ideas about what we're "owed".

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      02-21-2011 02:27 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.
      I want the states budget reeled in. If this means government workers lose some pay and pay a little more for their benefits, so be it.

      It's not about them getting the same benefits, or lack of benefits, that I have, but about the state paying far too much for far too little in return from the state workers. It's time for the easy ride to end. Start busting ass like the rest of us. You get recognized and rewarded for hard work, not simply because you were hired.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

    9. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 02:28 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.
      Like I said, I don't get it either. I work in education (but not public or unionized) because we get a lot of vacation time and if you do your job right the first time, you usually don't have to put in much time outside of normal working hours. I would never work under the kind of conditions that a lot of private-sector people have to deal with, regardless of how high the pay is. I can understand it if they love their job and it's like a hobby to them (I get that satisfaction from my side business, not my main job) but if you don't enjoy it, what's the benefit? Extra money? Where do you get the time to enjoy the stuff you can buy with the money?

      In my job I tend to have the opposite problem...I have to come in here but there is nothing substantial for me to do because I can't grease the wheels of the rest of the organization to get what I need. Like right now, I need to order some equipment for a project, but I have nowhere to install the equipment and the meeting that was supposed to decide where I can install it has been postponed 3 times in 2 weeks. But at least I can go home when the workday is over and I don't have somebody expecting me to work nights and weekends for no extra pay or comp time. I don't know how anybody can live like that, unless they're desperate and have no other choice.

      -Andrew L
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      02-21-2011 02:31 PM #60
      I see a lot of jealous private sector workers in here.

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      02-21-2011 02:32 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.
      Having a normal professional life and paying for health insurance isn't being "screwed over", unless someother group gets what they shouldn't from others by way of political maneuvering. Formulating public employment policy based on what you want merits ridicule.
      Last edited by zukiphile; 02-21-2011 at 02:36 PM.

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      02-21-2011 02:33 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

      That is certainly one perspective; one way to look at it. As a private sector employee, that's not how I choose to see it.

      I recognize that operating capital can be difficult to obtain. There are lean times and fat times, depending on the financial environment. It is widely recognized that due to this extended recession, tax revenues are down across all levels of government.

      We're all having to tighten our belts, but those in the public sector don't seem to understand that they're inextricably linked to us. If we're making less money, how does it make sense for you to ask us to continue putting the same amount of money into the public coffers? How is this rational?
      Quote Originally Posted by John Steinbeck
      Sectional football games have the glory and the despair of war, and when a Texas team takes the field against a foreign state, it is an army with banners.

    13. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 02:34 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Like I said, I don't get it either. I work in education (but not public or unionized) because we get a lot of vacation time and if you do your job right the first time, you usually don't have to put in much time outside of normal working hours. I would never work under the kind of conditions that a lot of private-sector people have to deal with, regardless of how high the pay is. I can understand it if they love their job and it's like a hobby to them (I get that satisfaction from my side business, not my main job) but if you don't enjoy it, what's the benefit? Extra money? Where do you get the time to enjoy the stuff you can buy with the money?

      In my job I tend to have the opposite problem...I have to come in here but there is nothing substantial for me to do because I can't grease the wheels of the rest of the organization to get what I need. Like right now, I need to order some equipment for a project, but I have nowhere to install the equipment and the meeting that was supposed to decide where I can install it has been postponed 3 times in 2 weeks. But at least I can go home when the workday is over and I don't have somebody expecting me to work nights and weekends for no extra pay or comp time. I don't know how anybody can live like that, unless they're desperate and have no other choice.

      -Andrew L
      This kind of attitude is the explanation for why jobs keep drifting offshore to Asia. We live in a world economy. Those of us who have jobs that can be done offshore have to be at least as productive per dollar spent as anyone anywhere else in the world. Our labor generates the wealth in the economy that funds everything else. You can't pay doctors, lawyers, teachers, policemen, etc high wages if the country doesn't generate the wealth to pay the bills.

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      02-21-2011 02:35 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      I promise you that such an attitude is not uniquely american.

      If teachers want to be regarded and paid as professionals, it is appropriate to ask why they don't maintain the kind of work schedule other professionals do.
      There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries. Do you think that's the ideal state of things or do you think that's a problem? Personally, I think it's a problem. If you think it's ideal, fine, but refer to what I said about Puritan self-denial

      -Andrew L
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      02-21-2011 02:37 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.
      It's called competition. Harsh reality I know, but the only way around that is regulation. Look at working conditions around the turn of 20th century. It was a nightmare, but that was people doing anything to beat out the competition. But that's what drives us forward. Regulate it to the point where their is no competition we might as well just throw in the towel.

    16. 02-21-2011 02:37 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries.
      It just means we aren't lazy and entitled.

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      02-21-2011 02:38 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries. Do you think that's the ideal state of things or do you think that's a problem? Personally, I think it's a problem. If you think it's ideal, fine, but refer to what I said about Puritan self-denial

      -Andrew L
      There is no self-denial in doing a job you like. If a public sector employee dislikes his work so much that he can't bear to think of working past 3pm, nine months a year, he could take his special talents elsewhere.

      I understand the attraction of an easy job, but it doesn't fit well with a complaint of being underpaid.
      Last edited by zukiphile; 02-21-2011 at 02:41 PM.

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      02-21-2011 02:39 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta
      Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.
      No, I want to work in an environment whereby my success is predicated upon my performance, not the collective general output of a group, or the time I have served. I also enjoy the freedom of knowing if I do not like the work environment I am at, I can seek employment elsewhere.

      Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
      You make it sound as though they are protesting in opposition of a vast majority will.
      Yeah, I do. It's pretty clear that is the case here. If anything the protestors have the majority of, it is in voice. The opposition is not going to "call in sick" during to come speak their side (though I do recognize there finally is some opposing protests currently underway). Never mind unions are bussing in other workers outside of the state to join the protests. Never mind school districts have been forced to shut down due to lack of teaching faculty. That is the kind of outcome that is not helping their cause one bit.

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      02-21-2011 02:39 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries. Do you think that's the ideal state of things or do you think that's a problem? Personally, I think it's a problem. If you think it's ideal, fine, but refer to what I said about Puritan self-denial

      -Andrew L
      Do any of these studies hold up certain Mediterranean nations as models? Do any of these studies include some of the DEEP austerity measures being looked at and undertaken since last spring?
      Quote Originally Posted by John Steinbeck
      Sectional football games have the glory and the despair of war, and when a Texas team takes the field against a foreign state, it is an army with banners.

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      02-21-2011 02:41 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      This kind of attitude is the explanation for why jobs keep drifting offshore to Asia. We live in a world economy. Those of us who have jobs that can be done offshore have to be at least as productive per dollar spent as anyone anywhere else in the world. Our labor generates the wealth in the economy that funds everything else. You can't pay doctors, lawyers, teachers, policemen, etc high wages if the country doesn't generate the wealth to pay the bills.
      What "kind of attitude" do you mean? The attitude that I shouldn't have to spend all my waking hours working to make money I can't use for anything meaningful because I spend all my waking hours working?

      I'm not advocating laziness, just sanity. The idea that pushing people harder and harder and making workers miserable improves productivity is a false economy.

      -Andrew L
      "The whole economy is hinged on potholes." --Ray Magliozzi
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      02-21-2011 02:42 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      The idea that pushing people harder and harder and making workers miserable improves productivity is a false economy.

      -Andrew L
      Asia disagrees. We don't spend a lot of time worried about being overtaken economically by the greeks.

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      02-21-2011 02:43 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      I'm not advocating laziness, just sanity. The idea that pushing people harder and harder and making workers miserable improves productivity is a false economy.

      -Andrew L
      On the flipside, we can't foster a society that expects to be rewarded for mediocrity and continually takes while everyone else is making necessary cuts.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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      02-21-2011 02:47 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      What "kind of attitude" do you mean? The attitude that I shouldn't have to spend all my waking hours working to make money I can't use for anything meaningful because I spend all my waking hours working?

      I'm not advocating laziness, just sanity. The idea that pushing people harder and harder and making workers miserable improves productivity is a false economy.

      -Andrew L
      The people paying the taxes that fund your pay check all have to compete against China and India. If we all adopted your work attitude, you'd have to take a 50% drop in standard of living since there would be no money in the public trough to pay you.

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      02-21-2011 02:48 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Surfing On A Rocket View Post
      I see a lot of jealous private sector workers in here.
      I would agree if the private sector folks weren't paying the salaries of the public sector folks. However that's not the case so I would call it more "concern" than jealousy.
      Scotch. It's time.

      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      You can promote hate with pencil as you do with a gun. For me they are both the same.
      Frightening ideology, no?

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      02-21-2011 02:49 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Asia disagrees. We don't spend a lot of time worried about being overtaken economically by the greeks.
      It's not just the Greeks, it's most of Europe, including successful Scandinavian countries.

      And when I say false economy...maybe China is very good at high-volume manufacturing, but it's still a false economy because it ruins people's lives. The way I see it, the current generation in China is willing to put up with a lot of crap to build things up for their children's generation. We won't be able to pay Chinese factory workers $1/hr 12hrs/day (or whatever the prevailing rate is) forever. It's a temporary condition brought on by a group of people who saw the chance to lift themselves out of poverty. A few more generations and they'll be just like the rest of us

      And speaking of Asia, look at Japan. The young generation is largely rejecting the "work as life" mentality that their parents had. Because they watched it and figured out that...it sucks! At a certain point, individuals are going to make choices in their own interest regardless of what is best for on-paper productivity.

      -Andrew L
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