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    Thread: My governor is a retard.

    1. 02-21-2011 05:00 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by bigtavo View Post
      The current "school calendar" was developed when people farmed. You need the kids for cheap labor in the summer.
      You need them in the Spring for planting and in the Fall for harvest.

      And even if it was true, it's not relevant anymore.

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      02-21-2011 05:02 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by David Mays View Post
      You need them in the Spring for planting and in the Fall for harvest.

      And even if it was true, it's not relevant anymore.
      My point (poorly expressed) exactly.
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      02-21-2011 05:19 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      (Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for all school districts)
      I'm even better with this idea

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      02-21-2011 05:27 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by David Mays View Post
      Wait a second- are you saying that the ultra-wealthy should give their fortunes back to the proletariat?

      SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM!!!

      I'm sure you get that while extremely good efforts- the actions of a few wealthy people are not going to turn around the school system in this country.

    5. Member Yo Teach's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 05:33 PM #130
      From some of the ignorance displayed here, a blank slate might think all teachers are doing nothing but passing out worksheets while riding the wave to their retirement. It seems every public employee ought to kiss the feet of every taxpayer for each cent they earn.

      What the governments in Wisconsin and Ohio want to do is about union busting and controlling state workers. The public workers are willing to take concessions. They are willing to negotiate pensions and health care costs. What we do not want to do is abolish collective bargaining. However, the group think here says public employees are selfish and do not want to give anything up.

      The most disgusting display here, though, is the degradation of teachers as little more than part time workers dictating from a textbook, all while building up a nice cushy pension that makes others jealous.

      Sure, there are bad teachers. There are bad eggs in every profession. However, state after state are upping the standards for being a teacher. In Ohio, before you can teach, you needs a Bachelors degree. While in college, you take a couple exams. They are called the Praxis tests. You take a Praxis test for you content area (math, social studies, English, etc.) and a test for general teaching methods. The first semester of your senior year, you spend much time in a real classroom. The entire second semester of your senior year you are in the classroom. You apply for a license from the state. If you meet the requirements, they will issue a 2-Year Provisional license. This means you are under a sort of probationary period, for lack of a better term. You have to get a Masters degree within 10 years. Your first year on the job you have a "mentor" who evaluates you. You have to reapply for a new license every several years. You have to take additional college courses every several years.

      Your Monday-Friday schedule requires you to be at the school for at least 7 hours; the length of a typical school day. Nearly all stay longer than that, whether they come on early, stay late, or both. You can get a lot done during your planning hour, but unless you are a machine, there will be work you have to take home with you. This is especially true if you are a new teacher, as you are designing all your lessons for the very first time.

      You strive for ways to reach your students more effectively, you develop better classroom management techniques, and you speak with parents.

      Being a teacher, where you have a pension and healthcare and a 185-day/year work schedule, is a choice. But so is working for an advertising company, a job that also requires a college education and bringing your work home with you. Working at McDonald's is a choice. Becoming a priest is a choice. Joining the military is a choice.

      Teaching graduates from recent years and in the years to come are and will be the best and the brightest. And this is not to say teachers who have been at it for 30+ years are not the best and the brightest; many are quite effective at what they do. It is the bad eggs we hear about on the news. They are the exceptions, not the norm. But tightening standards make it less and less likely those people will even get a license, let alone make teaching their entire career.

      Of course there are problems in America's public schools. We do lag behind other developed countries. And yes, unions do need reform. But do not try and tell me the vast majority of them do not earn every cent they make. It's the testing of rote memory, rather than the ability to analyze, synthesize, and evaluate, that is a problem. Standardized tests do hold some value, but they are the determining factor in whether a kid gets a diploma. Students need to be assessed on their ability to explain what they have learned, not just their ability to memorize it. It's administrations that kowtow to nosy community members, leading to banned books, frivolous lawsuits, and the banning of ridiculous things, like wearing the color black. It's parents that do not instill an ethic that hard work brings success. It's a combination of factors.

      This country needs good teachers. To get good teachers, they need to be offered good compensation. Without it, people will not enter the field. Then what happens? Do we lower the standards for becoming a teacher so they are more in line with the pay the teachers will get? I certainly hope not. Collective bargaining needs to stick around.



      EDIT - For the sake of disclosure, I graduated with a degree in Adolescent-to-Young Adult [grades 7-12, i.e. secondary] integrated social studies education from Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, OH in 2010. I do not have a permanent teaching job; I am substitute for two local school districts.
      Last edited by Yo Teach; 02-21-2011 at 05:42 PM.
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      02-21-2011 05:33 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

      (Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for under performing school districts)
      School is the same tempurature , regardless of students or not .......

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      02-21-2011 05:33 PM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      Wait a second- are you saying that the ultra-wealthy should give their fortunes back to the proletariat?

      SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM!!!

      I'm sure you get that while extremely good efforts- the actions of a few wealthy people are not going to turn around the school system in this country.
      You're obviously not a smart person.

      Wealthy people that donate to charity are awesome and should be celebrated. Having the government take money to waste on nonsense, however, is not cool.

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      02-21-2011 05:37 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      This country needs good teachers. To get good teachers, they need to be offered good compensation. Without it, people will not enter the field. Then what happens? Do we lower the standards for becoming a teacher so they are more in line with the pay the teachers will get? I certainly hope not. Collective bargaining needs to stick around.
      I agreed with everything you said minus these last two lines .
      Most teachers are already way over paid for what little work they do.
      And collective bargining is a tool fo the past and needs to go away permently.
      Just think how much more you would make if you didnt have to pay your dues ? And was paid by performance like everyone else ?

      My wife taught college for 3 years and she said she will never go back. She now makes more working for a Tyco handeling there website redesign.

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      02-21-2011 05:38 PM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      *WALL OF TEXT*
      You hit the nail on the head. I have a feeling your words will hold entirely no sway with the majority of posters here, however.
      Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
      Apparently, these “frat-boys” think Craig’s List is more entertaining than Survivor.

    10. Member Yo Teach's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 05:40 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by Chilledman View Post
      I agreed with everything you said minus these last two lines .
      Most teachers are already way over paid for what little work they do.
      And collective bargining is a tool fo the past and needs to go away permently.
      Just think how much more you would make if you didnt have to pay your dues ? And was paid by performance like everyone else ?

      My wife taught college for 3 years and she said she will never go back. She now makes more working for a Tyco handeling there website redesign.
      And I can appreciate your statements and disagreement except for what I bold faced. Teaching is not a little amount of work.
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      02-21-2011 05:49 PM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      And I can appreciate your statements and disagreement except for what I bold faced. Teaching is not a little amount of work.
      I agree , I should of stated its alittle amount of work for a bad teach and alot of work for a good teacher

    12. 02-21-2011 06:59 PM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      From some of the ignorance displayed here, ..

      The most disgusting display here,...



      EDIT - For the sake of disclosure, I graduated with a degree in Adolescent-to-Young Adult [grades 7-12, i.e. secondary] integrated social studies education from Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, OH in 2010.
      What part of the program taught dismissing different ideas as disgusting ignorance?

      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      What the governments in Wisconsin and Ohio want to do is about union busting and controlling state workers.
      The state has an interest in offering terms of employment taxpayers can afford.

      Just a few decades ago, it was unimaginable that elected government would be forced to function through the intermediary of a labor union. That changed and we have the current problemmatic imbalances.

      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      The public workers are willing to take concessions. They are willing to negotiate pensions and health care costs.
      They are willing to take modest concessions that still leave them with benefits virtually unknown in voluntary markets. They are not willing to negotiate their practice of strategic withholding of services from the public.

      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      What we do not want to do is abolish collective bargaining. However, the group think here says public employees are selfish and do not want to give anything up.
      If you were to leave your students unattended so you can lie about being sick and camp out at the capitol to keep a labor union veto over public services, then yes, you are selfish. You are placing your union before your students. That's worse than selfish. It is greedy and negligent.
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      02-21-2011 07:06 PM #138
      Sounds like a lot of people are saying teachers should be paid more. That if people recognized their work they would get more money. Almost as though a market should determine that worth, with good teachers being rewarded and poor teachers being excised and replaced with better. If only such a market existed.....

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      02-21-2011 08:02 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile
      Interesting note about teachers: in my state private school teachers make less than public school teachers, but parents pay extra money to have their children taught by private school teachers.

      This suggests to me that elements other than compensation may determine teacher quality, and that poor current performance is a terrible excuse for paying a premium.
      And for some strange reason, it costs more to send a kid to public school than it does private school. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in NJ, between the teachers union and the state workers union, they've pretty much bankrupted the state.

      For the guy that was singing Jim McGreevy's praises for fixing the DMV, have you looked at what it costs to register a vehicle or renew your license these days? I pay $60/year for a motorcycle registration. The cost of a certificate of tile just went from $20 to $65 IIRC.

      And then you have the situation where the governor is cutting back-room deals w/ his former g/f, who just happened to be head of one of the largest state worker locals in the country.

      The problem w/ the public education system in NJ is that the people that are really the root of the problem, the administrators, aren't going to give up their gravy train. For example, the head of the school board in my town makes ~$150k IIRC. Not to shabby.

      And what's even worse here in NJ, is that the people are powerless. Even if you vote down a proposed school budget, the school board can petition the state, and the state can not only award the originally requested budget, but any additional stuff the school board throws on it.

      A few years ago, the people in my town voted down the school budget by ~2:1. The town council turned around and cut

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      02-21-2011 08:06 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      My governor is a retard.
      Wisconsin huh?
      Well, don't state governors have to be residents of that state?
      If they disallowed retarded candidates, would anybody in Wisconsin be eligible to run for that office?
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      02-21-2011 08:20 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post

      lots and lots of info.
      All of your charts are fine and dandy, but the problem is WI teachers often make barely above half of the median average listed in that chart. The teachers are who stand to lose the most in this deal. Our education system (just like everybody else in the country right now) is understaffed, underpaid, and there is no relief in sight. Attendance isn't getting lower and budgets for arts & culture are already severely hampered.

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      02-21-2011 08:40 PM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Wisconsin huh?
      Well, don't state governors have to be residents of that state?
      If they disallowed retarded candidates, would anybody in Wisconsin be eligible to run for that office?
      With all due respect, even I had to chuckle at this coming from someone in Tennessee.

      I am loving the debate and both sides being presented. Seems like the "majority" of posters are siding with the WI Governor. Interesting.
      Quote Originally Posted by OGSDUB View Post
      13 years of parochial schools over here. Knowing me one would never figure that.

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      02-21-2011 09:07 PM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      All of your charts are fine and dandy, but the problem is WI teachers often make barely above half of the median average listed in that chart. The teachers are who stand to lose the most in this deal. Our education system (just like everybody else in the country right now) is understaffed, underpaid, and there is no relief in sight. Attendance isn't getting lower and budgets for arts & culture are already severely hampered.

      Really? So what is the median average of the others? This page indicates they make pretty good dough:

      http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher...wisconsin.html

      What is the cost of living in WI compared to places where teachers make twice that? CT isn't much higher than WI in teaching salaries and our cost of living is quite high:

      http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher...nnecticut.html

      Wisconsin Teaching Salaries and Benefits
      People often believe that teachers don't make a lot of money. Those in the know, though, are aware that compensation in the education industry can be quite generous, especially when you factor in the great vacation schedule and the comprehensive benefits packages that usually go along with teaching. In Wisconsin, teaching salaries averaged $52,644 in 2009-10, according to the National Education Association, with most school districts offering benefits that range from health insurance to retirement plans. (1)

      The average Wisconsin teacher salary does vary, however. One major source of salary variation is what grade level you teach. In May 2009, preschool teachers in Wisconsin earned an average salary of $23,460, elementary school teachers earned $51,240, and secondary school teachers earned $49,400. (2) Education and experience level also make a difference in teacher salaries: secondary school teachers in the 90th wage percentile earned $69,550, while the entry-level teacher salary is generally in the $30,000s. (3)

      Geographic location is another significant reason for variation in Wisconsin teaching salaries. Areas that have a higher cost of living often pay correspondingly higher salaries. Below are average annual earnings for secondary school teachers in five of the largest metropolitan areas in the state: (4)

      * Green Bay: $55,110
      * Kenosha: $68,400
      * Madison: $50,770
      * Milwaukee: $54,620
      * Racine: $49,710

      However, the greatest benefit to becoming an educator has nothing to do with Wisconsin teaching salaries. At the end of the day, the intrinsic rewards of helping children learn and shaping their knowledge for the future are arguably far more satisfying.

      If you're thinking of becoming a teacher in Wisconsin, find the education degree that's right for you, and start your future today!

      Sources:
      (1) Milwaukee Public Schools
      (2) Wisconsin Department of Workforce Development
      (3) Wisconsin's Worknet
      (4) U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

      Back to Wisconsin Teacher Certification/Credentialing
      Or, Steps to become a teacher in Wisconsin
      Connecticut Teacher Salary Information
      Connecticut Teacher Salaries have been among the top Teaching Salaries in the nation for many years. Connecticut citizens and public officials have displayed their support of Connecticut Educators by creating an atmosphere of support.

      Below is a list of Connecticut Teaching Salaries for a couple Public School Districts. We encourage you to examine particular Connecticut School District Teacher Salaries and costs of living in the area to decide whether you will be satisfied.

      As you can see below, you can greatly increase your earning potential as a Connecticut Teacher if you acquire an advanced degree such as a Master's degree or a Doctorate degree.

      ** Salaries are from the 2006-2007 Connecticut Teaching salaries for Waterbury Public Schools and Westport Public Schools

      Waterbury Public Schools Teaching Salaries

      Degree Level Step 1 Teaching Salary Step 6 Teaching Salary
      Bachelor's Degree $40,657 $51,909
      Master's Degree $43,484 $54,705
      Doctorate Degree $49,504 $62,504


      Westport Public Schools Teaching Salaries

      Degree Level Step 3 Teaching Salary Step 9 Teaching Salary
      Bachelor's Degree $41,997 $54,467
      Master's Degree $45,126 $58,460

    19. Member Yo Teach's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 09:31 PM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post

      And I have to laugh at Yo Teach. He contends that collective bargaining needs to be retained, yet he eschews group-think. Now that's what I call irony.
      Collective bargaining does not necessarily reflect group think. In fact, I think it is one of the more deliberative things one can do.
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      02-21-2011 10:01 PM #145
      Your governor is a shrewd ass. For some reason average people in this country truly believe this crap about unions. Governments are insolvent because we have been lowering taxes and voting for additional programs for 50 years. While America was becoming great we were investing in education and infrastructure. The top income tax rate in the 50s was around 90%! Lowering this has not resulted in higher wages and more jobs for the bottom 40, 50 or 60%. We've just lowered the goal posts so that people self-identify as middle class if they are just above the poverty level.

      It kills me that the response to defined contribution retirements being such a crap deal is an attack on defined benefit. Why not insist on them instead of trying to get them eliminated.

      DISCLOSURE: I am a public employee with collective bargaining rights. In hard times my pay and benefits look awesome. In good times we have a hard time attracting quality applicants and people leave for greener pastures. I consciously traded possible higher private sector compensation for financial security. If defined benefit pensions were more prevalent and better regulated in the private sector I'd be inclined to leave my very dangerous profession.
      Last edited by garageless; 02-21-2011 at 10:03 PM.

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      02-21-2011 10:17 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by garageless View Post
      Your governor is a shrewd ass. For some reason average people in this country truly believe this crap about unions. Governments are insolvent because we have been lowering taxes and voting for additional programs for 50 years. While America was becoming great we were investing in education and infrastructure. The top income tax rate in the 50s was around 90%! Lowering this has not resulted in higher wages and more jobs for the bottom 40, 50 or 60%. We've just lowered the goal posts so that people self-identify as middle class if they are just above the poverty level.

      It kills me that the response to defined contribution retirements being such a crap deal is an attack on defined benefit. Why not insist on them instead of trying to get them eliminated.
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      02-21-2011 10:17 PM #147
      I'll be quite honest, I usually fall on one side or the other in a political debate, but I don't know where I stand on this one.

      I'm a conservative Libertarian. I'm not fond of unions as I believe them to be, in general, an outdated set of institutions whose main purpose is more to lobby for Democrats than actually help workers. I believe many of our problems are due to unions (i.e. auto-industry bailout, companies leaving the US to look for cheaper labor, etc.). I've never worked a union job-- and talking to many who have worked for unions, they do encourage mediocrity and complacency. Why work hard if you cannot be fired? If unions are truly about choice and those who they represent, why is it nearly impossible to opt out of being a part of a union in a unionized workplace? Seems more than hypocritical to me.

      I'm all for budget cuts and bringing spending to a minimum, but I really question taking away the power of teachers, police and fire. These are the people society relies on and, without them, we're sunk. They're not paid particularly well (aside from the cases where they are allowed to retire and then re-retire, abuse the system, become lazy and protected by unions, etc.) to begin with.

      If America is going to advance as a nation, we need to put more effort into education. Not even necessarily money, but cultural importance. If you look at many Asian and Indian immigrants, they're surpassing kids born in America. I went to a high school dominated by the two groups, and it wasn't that they were more intelligent by any means. Their family and culture simply pushed them harder and demanded good results. If we can attract better people to teaching through better salaries and thus reverse some of the anti-education feelings in this country, the better we'll be.

      I'd rather pay a teacher more today than pay the welfare system more tomorrow.

      What we need to do here is not ban them from having collective bargaining, but just tell the unions we're not playing their games anymore. These great people ARE public servants and chose this line of work. They SHOULD be paid a fair wage and given good benefits, but within reason.

      If this is really about children, preventing crime and fires, then lets have the governors and unions sit down and figure out how to best work towards a common goal.




      By the way, thanks Baby Boomers. Gen X has a lot to thank you all for.
      Last edited by 22AudiQ; 02-21-2011 at 10:21 PM.

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      02-21-2011 10:23 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by garageless View Post
      It kills me that the response to defined contribution retirements being such a crap deal is an attack on defined benefit. Why not insist on them instead of trying to get them eliminated.
      Because the private sector pays the publics benefits. The private sector can't just demand them and expect their companies to go take from all the citizens in the land to fund such largess? Public sector pay is often on par or greater than private.

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      02-21-2011 10:30 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by 22AudiQ View Post
      I'd rather pay a teacher more today than pay the welfare system more tomorrow.

      What we need to do here is not ban them from having collective bargaining, but just tell the unions we're not playing their games anymore. These great people ARE public servants and chose this line of work. They SHOULD be paid a fair wage and given good benefits, but within reason.

      If this is really about children, preventing crime and fires, then lets have the governors and unions sit down and figure out how to best work towards a common goal.
      Thanks for being a reasonable conservative Libertarian! Maybe you can give lessons to some of the others

      As for paying the welfare system more tomorrow...don't worry, the Republicans will just cut that too. Then they'll eliminate the minimum wage, and create plenty of $2/hr jobs for the new, starving, uneducated peasant underclass. That solves the whole shipping-jobs-overseas thing!

      I'm actually not sure if I was being sarcastic or dead serious just then. That's how bad things have gotten in the US political sphere IMHO.

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      02-21-2011 10:59 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by 2Cor View Post
      Because the private sector pays the publics benefits. The private sector can't just demand them and expect their companies to go take from all the citizens in the land to fund such largess? Public sector pay is often on par or greater than private.
      The private sector does pay for government. This is the whole point of having a representative government. We all decide what to have and how to pay for it. Do you want the cheapest least skilled to be the labour pool for public enterprise? I work with some extraordinary people in the public sector. I pay 10% of my salary each month to fund my retirement. My employer pays more. The idea that someone can retire to a secure and comfortable lifestyle by setting aside a few 100 per month is just crazy. Most Americans nearing retirement age are woefully unprepared. Don't blame union workers for choosing their lot. FYI, public sector pay trails behind the private sector when level of education is taken into account.

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