My governor is a retard.

[SAPJetta]

I think this part "eliminating unions and slashing pay and benefits" is about keeping states solvent. Our educational system is broken. Consider

Why should I be forced to pay more for a faulty product?

Those are perfect graphs.

Scores have stayed about the same while costs have soared. I'm also not a big supporter of the smaller classroom movement. I did just fine in classes with 30+ kids in them. Smaller classrooms mean more teachers. More teachers collecting pay and benefits without any sort of return.

Back to smaller classrooms, ask them to pay more for health care (not sure why this one is so tough when many people pay far more for worse health care), make pay based on performance and replace those 'teachers' who just don't seem to get the whole teaching thing.

I'm not just for targeting teachers either. Government needs to take a long, hard look at every single office, job and employee and determine whether or not they are necessary and whether or not the pay is in line with the output and performance of that employee.

[rimtrim]

Why should I be forced to pay more for a faulty product?

I've wondered the same thing about health insurance but you conservatives don't seem to see it that way

As I said, I'm not against education reform. It's the idea that somehow we will slash pay and benefits, and improve public education at the same time that I'm against, because it's silly. The people proposing it know it's silly. They don't really want to improve public education at all, they want to eliminate it, or turn it into a last resort for those who can't afford private school. But that idea will only fly with a small percentage of voters, so they sugar-coat it by saying that we can eliminate all this "waste" and then we can have our cake and eat it too.

-Andrew L

[zukiphile]

I've wondered the same thing about health insurance but you conservatives don't seem to see it that way

I think you have the positions reversed

They don't really want to improve public education at all, they want to eliminate it, or turn it into a last resort for those who can't afford private school.

They want to turn it into what it is now?

If you want to improve the service at the DMV, then let's tackle that problem. But I'm pretty sure slashing wages and busting unions isn't going to do it.

I am not as sure as you are.

I can think of one arrangement in which I would have no objection to a public school teachers union: have the money follow the student. After special needs students allocations are made split up the remaining money and allocate it to each student to attend where ever his parents choose.

[GeoffD]

A lot of you people need to STOP with the idea that education is a viable for-profit business model. NCLB is a failure. Defunding schools that don't produce test score increases just compounds the problem.

I am FOR performance based review of teachers- but arguing that the teacher is the sole reason your kids suck at life is the problem. For the past 3 years, my wife has had 95% + meeting or exceeding their state testing goals. This year she thinks it will be about 80%, because she has a group of little monsters with even worse parents. She must be a horrible teacher if only 80% can pass their tests.

Defunding schools means that there are less resources for teachers and schools to educate. Those fewer resources do not "motivate" people to produce better results. They just make the mountain that much harder to climb.

Wanna trim waste from the school system? Look at the admin, school boards, and facilities. All three have redundancies, wastes, and outright fraud that should make most taxpayers puke.

It's not "the American way" but I imagine your wife would be much happier if the school segregated the 'good' students from 'the little monsters'? The reason why people send their children to private schools is because they toss out 'the little monsters' so they don't slow down the rest of the class. The quality of the teaching is otherwise likely comparable.

Part of the whole problem with schools (and police/fire) is that local politicians control salaries. The unions have the whole negotiation process down pat. Some unpaid volunteer sitting on the school board is going to have a tough time pushing back on wage & benefit demands. They likely don't negotiate salaries for a living and their phone is ringing off the hook because everybody in the town is a teacher, related to a teacher, or has a neighbor who is a teacher. The way you fix this is to take away local control of public education. Fund it through state taxes instead of local property taxes. Make teachers be state employees. Today, most states have some mechanism to feed money to cities and towns to at least partially fund public education but they don't have any control over compensation.

[rimtrim]

I think you have the positions reversed

Um...not to derail the thread, but the "faulty product" is the current insurance market that likes to charge people out the wazoo and then deny coverage. The "pay more" is the ever-increasing costs on the private insurance market.

They did teach me SAT-style analogies in my inferior public schooling

They want to turn it into what it is now?

Not all public schools are like that. In fact I would guess most of them aren't. I had 13 years of public school and I wouldn't trade it for anything. There is room for improvement but except for rough inner-city and poor-rural schools, it's not like a lot of people think. I think that's actually a main part of the problem...people who have never been in a public school have a caricature view of what goes on there.

-Andrew L

[zukiphile]

Um...not to derail the thread, but the "faulty product" is the current insurance market that likes to charge people out the wazoo and then deny coverage. The "pay more" is the ever-increasing costs on the private insurance market.

I understood that. Reform of those markets is a recurring matter in conservative candidacies.

The current reform resulting from democrat effort compels people to buy an insurance product, increasing demand and price, while not offering a wider market.

Your analogy wasn't analogous.

So what would you think of having the money follow the student?

[2.FOH!!]

But that idea will only fly with a small percentage of voters, so they sugar-coat it by saying that we can eliminate all this "waste" and then we can have our cake and eat it too.

A 20 year teacher with tenure cruising along, waiting for retirement is
benefiting no one but themselves.

They are absolutely an example of waste that needs trimmed.



I will echo what Tornado2dr stated. A teacher may be quite good at what they
do, but if a parent condones crappy behavior from their kid at home, that behavior
will continue at school. That will affect test scores, the ability of the teacher to focus
on better students & the good students ability to benefit from class time.

The reason why people send their children to private schools is because they
toss out 'the little monsters' so they don't slow down the rest of the class.

That sometimes depends on who the monsters parents are. I've seen some
pretty rotten kids in private school get away with quite a bit due to daddy being
judge so & so.

[Tornado2dr]

It's not "the American way" but I imagine your wife would be much happier if the school segregated the 'good' students from 'the little monsters'? The reason why people send their children to private schools is because they toss out 'the little monsters' so they don't slow down the rest of the class. The quality of the teaching is otherwise likely comparable.

Part of the whole problem with schools (and police/fire) is that local politicians control salaries. The unions have the whole negotiation process down pat. Some unpaid volunteer sitting on the school board is going to have a tough time pushing back on wage & benefit demands. They likely don't negotiate salaries for a living and their phone is ringing off the hook because everybody in the town is a teacher, related to a teacher, or has a neighbor who is a teacher. The way you fix this is to take away local control of public education. Fund it through state taxes instead of local property taxes. Make teachers be state employees. Today, most states have some mechanism to feed money to cities and towns to at least partially fund public education but they don't have any control over compensation.

1) Actually the opposite. Anecdotally through my wife, the monsters are more likely to perform better in an environment where good performance is valued (like a class filly with perfect sallys and johnnys and only one ******* like me). This is the same principle as integrating certain children with non-violent learning and personality problems. the kids are NOT stigmatized into thinking they are dum-dums as kids were in our day of public education (LD classes, anyone?), but only leave the classroom for subjects that cause them particular trouble, or recieve additional help from an aide IN the classroom, removing the "isolated" effect of leaving the classroom during reading cause you suck at it.
As for the little monsters, the problem is that in most cases their parents just don't give a ****- they wouldn't have a chance at a private school cause their 'rents think they suck already, why bother with private school? (My wife enjoys a student whose mother, at the beginning of the year, told her point blank not to waste her time on her son, because he is just a screwup(at 10yo) who will end up in prison anyways- I was in the room cleaning up the board when this occurred). The problem isn't one little monster, its when you have several.

2) I'm not sure about state control, either. An idea I actually proposed to my wife is that there be a constant rotation of volunteer teachers through the administration who would make choices on policy, curriculum, funding, and firing decisions for proven innefective teachers. I think she'd be all for volunteering even more of her time, but she is almost 100% burnt out, so I don't think we'll be worrying about that any time soon.

[SomeRandomGuy]

The private sector isn't going to go into a down and out district and save the kids that need the most help.

ORLY?

http://www.microsoft.com/education/s.../overview.aspx

[JCJetta]

I will echo what Tornado2dr stated. A teacher may be quite good at what they
do, but if a parent condones crappy behavior from their kid at home, that behavior
will continue at school. That will affect test scores, the ability of the teacher to focus
on better students & the good students ability to benefit from class time.

There is a lot of merit from that side of the argument. Little sh-t kids making it impossible for other kids to learn, street gangs, and being forced on a curriculum only based solely upon passing the State’s standardized test certainly present valid weaknesses in a teacher’s ability to teach.

Certainly my snide feelings of “kick the little sh-ts out of class and let them rot” won’t hold up well in any debate, but then neither should basing a teacher’s performance on their classes’ standardized test scores.

I’d even go so far as to implement incentive programs to those teachers who truly want to make a difference to go work in the inner-city classrooms. Want to show us you truly care? Go where the “market” demands your talents the most. I think there already are some of these programs already in place now.

[rimtrim]

So what would you think of having the money follow the student?

I would need to understand the details of the plan. Some large school districts already have something like this -- not sure how the money flows, but the school-choice part at least. Here in Philly we have a lot of alternative charter schools, and I know a kid next door to me just started HS at a school not in the neighborhood. There was some kind of application and lottery system that he had to go through to get the school he wanted.

Ultimately, the point of public education is to give ALL students a good education, not just a lucky few. So, school choice can be good for testing different ideas to see which give the best results, but ultimately the best practices need to be implemented in all the schools so everyone can benefit from them. Otherwise the kids who lose the lottery get screwed.

-Andrew L

[Tornado2dr]

ORLY?

http://www.microsoft.com/education/s.../overview.aspx

Microsoft is currently helping schools in 12 locations around the world integrate the best practices learned at the School of the Future and from other Microsoft education initiatives.

Surely microsoft will be willing to donate their time and money to the rest of the 1000s of schools around our nation. Also note that the school in question's GOAL is to be a model for schools of the future in terms of curriculum, teaching style, and facilities. No one ever said finding a better way TO TEACH was a bad idea.

[Tornado2dr]

Ultimately, the point of public education is to give ALL students a good education, not just a lucky few. So, school choice can be good for testing different ideas to see which give the best results, but ultimately the best practices need to be implemented in all the schools so everyone can benefit from them. Otherwise the kids who lose the lottery get screwed.

-Andrew L

x2

[SomeRandomGuy]

Surely microsoft will be willing to donate their time and money to the rest of the 1000s of schools around our nation.

Bill & Melinda do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%2...tion#Education

[bigtavo]

I'm not sure when this changed into an education discussion but a few words on education reform

YEAR ROUND SCHOOL. No summer breaks. Holidays, a few 1-2 week recesses and make the school calendar 220-230 days long.

Tell the argument against it.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Tell the argument against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_...ms_and_support

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

[SOAR]

Scores have stayed about the same while costs have soared. I'm also not a big supporter of the smaller classroom movement. I did just fine in classes with 30+ kids in them.

That's you though. You aren't everyone.

When I moved from the Seattle area to a small rural town E. Washington I started to do very good in school. The close relationship with my fellow students and my teacher made school a much more hands on, interactive type of learning... Which I excel in.

Then I moved back to the Seattle area and entered into an overcrowded school district in an affluent area, that was supposedly one of the best public schools in the state. Which of course was mostly nothing but lectures, and tests, lectures, and tests. From there on, I struggled all the way through high school.

Now I am out of school and back to applying my knowledge and learning in a real world setting. And once again... Excelling.

I look back at that time, and see it as nothing more than a broken program that held me back for 6 years, and more or less, a waste of my time.

[joness0154]

I'm not sure when this changed into an education discussion but a few words on education reform

YEAR ROUND SCHOOL. No summer breaks. Holidays, a few 1-2 week recesses and make the school calendar 220-230 days long.

Tell the argument against it.

How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

(Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for under performing school districts)

[zukiphile]

How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

So, maybe the union issue and the prevailing wage mentality does need to be fixed.

[bigtavo]

How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

(Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for under performing school districts)

The current "school calendar" was developed when people farmed. You need the kids for cheap labor in the summer.

We pay teachers full time wages already. There are plenty of people that think a job that pays 40-100 grand a year with 6 weeks vacation wouldn't be a bad gig. The other costs would not be significantly different than what they are now.

A lot of dual income families would welcome the savings in summer time child care as well.

[SomeRandomGuy]

The current "school calendar" was developed when people farmed. You need the kids for cheap labor in the summer.

You need them in the Spring for planting and in the Fall for harvest.

And even if it was true, it's not relevant anymore.

[bigtavo]

You need them in the Spring for planting and in the Fall for harvest.

And even if it was true, it's not relevant anymore.

My point (poorly expressed) exactly.

[valfaw]

(Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for all school districts)

I'm even better with this idea

[Tornado2dr]

Bill & Melinda do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%2...tion#Education

Wait a second- are you saying that the ultra-wealthy should give their fortunes back to the proletariat?

SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM!!!

I'm sure you get that while extremely good efforts- the actions of a few wealthy people are not going to turn around the school system in this country.

[Yo Teach]

From some of the ignorance displayed here, a blank slate might think all teachers are doing nothing but passing out worksheets while riding the wave to their retirement. It seems every public employee ought to kiss the feet of every taxpayer for each cent they earn.

What the governments in Wisconsin and Ohio want to do is about union busting and controlling state workers. The public workers are willing to take concessions. They are willing to negotiate pensions and health care costs. What we do not want to do is abolish collective bargaining. However, the group think here says public employees are selfish and do not want to give anything up.

The most disgusting display here, though, is the degradation of teachers as little more than part time workers dictating from a textbook, all while building up a nice cushy pension that makes others jealous.

Sure, there are bad teachers. There are bad eggs in every profession. However, state after state are upping the standards for being a teacher. In Ohio, before you can teach, you needs a Bachelors degree. While in college, you take a couple exams. They are called the Praxis tests. You take a Praxis test for you content area (math, social studies, English, etc.) and a test for general teaching methods. The first semester of your senior year, you spend much time in a real classroom. The entire second semester of your senior year you are in the classroom. You apply for a license from the state. If you meet the requirements, they will issue a 2-Year Provisional license. This means you are under a sort of probationary period, for lack of a better term. You have to get a Masters degree within 10 years. Your first year on the job you have a "mentor" who evaluates you. You have to reapply for a new license every several years. You have to take additional college courses every several years.

Your Monday-Friday schedule requires you to be at the school for at least 7 hours; the length of a typical school day. Nearly all stay longer than that, whether they come on early, stay late, or both. You can get a lot done during your planning hour, but unless you are a machine, there will be work you have to take home with you. This is especially true if you are a new teacher, as you are designing all your lessons for the very first time.

You strive for ways to reach your students more effectively, you develop better classroom management techniques, and you speak with parents.

Being a teacher, where you have a pension and healthcare and a 185-day/year work schedule, is a choice. But so is working for an advertising company, a job that also requires a college education and bringing your work home with you. Working at McDonald's is a choice. Becoming a priest is a choice. Joining the military is a choice.

Teaching graduates from recent years and in the years to come are and will be the best and the brightest. And this is not to say teachers who have been at it for 30+ years are not the best and the brightest; many are quite effective at what they do. It is the bad eggs we hear about on the news. They are the exceptions, not the norm. But tightening standards make it less and less likely those people will even get a license, let alone make teaching their entire career.

Of course there are problems in America's public schools. We do lag behind other developed countries. And yes, unions do need reform. But do not try and tell me the vast majority of them do not earn every cent they make. It's the testing of rote memory, rather than the ability to analyze, synthesize, and evaluate, that is a problem. Standardized tests do hold some value, but they are the determining factor in whether a kid gets a diploma. Students need to be assessed on their ability to explain what they have learned, not just their ability to memorize it. It's administrations that kowtow to nosy community members, leading to banned books, frivolous lawsuits, and the banning of ridiculous things, like wearing the color black. It's parents that do not instill an ethic that hard work brings success. It's a combination of factors.

This country needs good teachers. To get good teachers, they need to be offered good compensation. Without it, people will not enter the field. Then what happens? Do we lower the standards for becoming a teacher so they are more in line with the pay the teachers will get? I certainly hope not. Collective bargaining needs to stick around.



EDIT - For the sake of disclosure, I graduated with a degree in Adolescent-to-Young Adult [grades 7-12, i.e. secondary] integrated social studies education from Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, OH in 2010. I do not have a permanent teaching job; I am substitute for two local school districts.

[Chilledman]

How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

(Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for under performing school districts)

School is the same tempurature , regardless of students or not .......

[Fritz27]

Wait a second- are you saying that the ultra-wealthy should give their fortunes back to the proletariat?

SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM!!!

I'm sure you get that while extremely good efforts- the actions of a few wealthy people are not going to turn around the school system in this country.

You're obviously not a smart person.

Wealthy people that donate to charity are awesome and should be celebrated. Having the government take money to waste on nonsense, however, is not cool.

[Chilledman]

This country needs good teachers. To get good teachers, they need to be offered good compensation. Without it, people will not enter the field. Then what happens? Do we lower the standards for becoming a teacher so they are more in line with the pay the teachers will get? I certainly hope not. Collective bargaining needs to stick around.

I agreed with everything you said minus these last two lines .
Most teachers are already way over paid for what little work they do.
And collective bargining is a tool fo the past and needs to go away permently.
Just think how much more you would make if you didnt have to pay your dues ? And was paid by performance like everyone else ?

My wife taught college for 3 years and she said she will never go back. She now makes more working for a Tyco handeling there website redesign.

[Big Morgan]

*WALL OF TEXT*

You hit the nail on the head. I have a feeling your words will hold entirely no sway with the majority of posters here, however.

[Yo Teach]

I agreed with everything you said minus these last two lines .
Most teachers are already way over paid for what little work they do.
And collective bargining is a tool fo the past and needs to go away permently.
Just think how much more you would make if you didnt have to pay your dues ? And was paid by performance like everyone else ?

My wife taught college for 3 years and she said she will never go back. She now makes more working for a Tyco handeling there website redesign.

And I can appreciate your statements and disagreement except for what I bold faced. Teaching is not a little amount of work.

[Chilledman]

And I can appreciate your statements and disagreement except for what I bold faced. Teaching is not a little amount of work.

I agree , I should of stated its alittle amount of work for a bad teach and alot of work for a good teacher

[zukiphile]

From some of the ignorance displayed here, ..

The most disgusting display here,...



EDIT - For the sake of disclosure, I graduated with a degree in Adolescent-to-Young Adult [grades 7-12, i.e. secondary] integrated social studies education from Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, OH in 2010.

What part of the program taught dismissing different ideas as disgusting ignorance?

What the governments in Wisconsin and Ohio want to do is about union busting and controlling state workers.

The state has an interest in offering terms of employment taxpayers can afford.

Just a few decades ago, it was unimaginable that elected government would be forced to function through the intermediary of a labor union. That changed and we have the current problemmatic imbalances.

The public workers are willing to take concessions. They are willing to negotiate pensions and health care costs.

They are willing to take modest concessions that still leave them with benefits virtually unknown in voluntary markets. They are not willing to negotiate their practice of strategic withholding of services from the public.

What we do not want to do is abolish collective bargaining. However, the group think here says public employees are selfish and do not want to give anything up.

If you were to leave your students unattended so you can lie about being sick and camp out at the capitol to keep a labor union veto over public services, then yes, you are selfish. You are placing your union before your students. That's worse than selfish. It is greedy and negligent.

[2Cor]

Sounds like a lot of people are saying teachers should be paid more. That if people recognized their work they would get more money. Almost as though a market should determine that worth, with good teachers being rewarded and poor teachers being excised and replaced with better. If only such a market existed.....

[Mk1Racer]

Interesting note about teachers: in my state private school teachers make less than public school teachers, but parents pay extra money to have their children taught by private school teachers.

This suggests to me that elements other than compensation may determine teacher quality, and that poor current performance is a terrible excuse for paying a premium.

And for some strange reason, it costs more to send a kid to public school than it does private school. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in NJ, between the teachers union and the state workers union, they've pretty much bankrupted the state.

For the guy that was singing Jim McGreevy's praises for fixing the DMV, have you looked at what it costs to register a vehicle or renew your license these days? I pay $60/year for a motorcycle registration. The cost of a certificate of tile just went from $20 to $65 IIRC.

And then you have the situation where the governor is cutting back-room deals w/ his former g/f, who just happened to be head of one of the largest state worker locals in the country.

The problem w/ the public education system in NJ is that the people that are really the root of the problem, the administrators, aren't going to give up their gravy train. For example, the head of the school board in my town makes ~$150k IIRC. Not to shabby.

And what's even worse here in NJ, is that the people are powerless. Even if you vote down a proposed school budget, the school board can petition the state, and the state can not only award the originally requested budget, but any additional stuff the school board throws on it.

A few years ago, the people in my town voted down the school budget by ~2:1. The town council turned around and cut <1% off the budget, and awarded it anyway, even though the voters voted it down. They had a town meeting to discuss it, and the mayor had the gall to state that they had only ~35% voter turn out, so that the election results didn't really reflect the wishes of the people. They (town council) also used the excuse that if the school board didn't get the budget that they proposed, that they could petition the state, and the state could actually award a larger budget. They were actually saving us from ourselves.

Then there was the year that we got the notice 2 weeks before school started that there would be no buses for kids not attending township public schools. Seems that the state mandates how much a given board can pay, per student, to send them to a non-public school. The head of the school board said that none of the proposals from the bus companies came in below that number. Yet they could spend whatever they wanted to to send the kids to the township schools. And even provide buses for kids that weren't entitled to them. If a kid lives <1/2 mile from the school, and does not have to cross a major highway, they are not entitled to be bused to school. Yet the board provides buses for them, at the expense of the taxpayers. But they wouldn't provide buses for my kids because they went to a parochial school. Well, they tried to do that, until I brought up the point that they were discriminating against my kids and other kids that were going to parochial schools on the basis of religion. Two days later we got a letter that said our kids would have buses.

And I have to laugh at Yo Teach. He contends that collective bargaining needs to be retained, yet he eschews group-think. Now that's what I call irony.

[BRealistic]

My governor is a retard.

Wisconsin huh?
Well, don't state governors have to be residents of that state?
If they disallowed retarded candidates, would anybody in Wisconsin be eligible to run for that office?