My governor is a retard.

[classicjetta]

Let's get something straight. Are some teachers and public workers overpaid? Absolutely. Does that mean we should completely get rid of unions? No way.

The problem is that it's easy to conflate different areas and different benefits. Here in Ohio for example, most city employees pay nothing for healthcare and nothing towards their pension. However, their actual take home pay is very low compared to a similar private sector job. State workers pay 10% towards their pension and hundreds per year towards health insurance premiums. But the pay is slightly better than city workers. Also if you look at "average" public and private sector pay, the private is way lower. Why? Because there are no Wal Mart greeter or burger flipper jobs in government. Most everybody has some sort of either academic or educational training required because the jobs are generally higher skilled.

Thus, its easy for pundits to point to certain benefits and say "this is way out of line with the private sector", and they're technically not wrong if you have tunnel vision.

Studies from non-partisan sources show that public employees as a whole are NOT overpaid. I'm sure there are plenty of studies from the Competitive Enterprise Institute and other oh-so-neutral sources that show public workers are vastly overpaid, but as shown above, it's easy to confuse certain aspects of compensation.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...ation_penalty/

The union I'm in agreed to a salary freeze two years ago as well as 20 days of furlough to help the state save money. Now if the unions were all selfish and didn't care about the state, would they have done that? The problem here is this debate in Wisconsin and Ohio has all been the Repubs saying "die bitches" rather than "hey we need to make some adjustments, let's work together and find out what can be done".

[mad8vskillz]

I'd love to have a job where I have tenure for life and cushy early retirement with full benefits unless I get bagged sleeping with a 14 year old or have a felony arrest.

I think I may be the only one ever that got in, and despite the "awsum gubbmint job" quit after three months, drove me nuts how unmotivated government employees are.

[crazysimi]

I sincerely hope that every teacher who got a fake "sick note" so they could go protest instead of working loses their job and pension.

[classicjetta]

I think I may be the only one ever that got in, and despite the "awsum gubbmint job" quit after three months, drove me nuts how unmotivated government employees are.

Wow you've met all government employees everywhere? Congrats, you're a popular guy!

[mad8vskillz]

Wow you've met all government employees everywhere? Congrats, you're a popular guy!

just all the ones i've needed to interact with at the DOD... those DODOs are a waste of life.

[Sump]

Also agree. Our health insurance at work went up over 150% since I started 5 years ago. I'd protest, but then I'd be replaced by the next guy waiting in line to take my job.

[Mk1Racer]

Let's get something straight. Are some teachers and public workers overpaid? Absolutely. Does that mean we should completely get rid of unions? No way.

The problem is that it's easy to conflate different areas and different benefits. Here in Ohio for example, most city employees pay nothing for healthcare and nothing towards their pension. However, their actual take home pay is very low compared to a similar private sector job. State workers pay 10% towards their pension and hundreds per year towards health insurance premiums. But the pay is slightly better than city workers. Also if you look at "average" public and private sector pay, the private is way lower. Why? Because there are no Wal Mart greeter or burger flipper jobs in government. Most everybody has some sort of either academic or educational training required because the jobs are generally higher skilled.

Thus, its easy for pundits to point to certain benefits and say "this is way out of line with the private sector", and they're technically not wrong if you have tunnel vision.

Studies from non-partisan sources show that public employees as a whole are NOT overpaid. I'm sure there are plenty of studies from the Competitive Enterprise Institute and other oh-so-neutral sources that show public workers are vastly overpaid, but as shown above, it's easy to confuse certain aspects of compensation.

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...ation_penalty/

The union I'm in agreed to a salary freeze two years ago as well as 20 days of furlough to help the state save money. Now if the unions were all selfish and didn't care about the state, would they have done that? The problem here is this debate in Wisconsin and Ohio has all been the Repubs saying "die bitches" rather than "hey we need to make some adjustments, let's work together and find out what can be done".

You're kidding, right? They did it because the alternative was to have a significant # of people lose their jobs. Thought I read something about one of the auto unions not wanting to make any concessions and it ended up costing about 20% of the workers their jobs.

And honestly, how many times are public sector workers going to trot out that hackneyed bit about how they're underpaid compared to private sector workers? Guess what, if it really was that much better in the private sector, I'm pretty sure people would be looking for jobs there.

[Iceman18T]

Also agree. Our health insurance at work went up over 150% since I started 5 years ago. I'd protest, but then I'd be replaced by the next guy waiting in line to take my job.

Exactly. There are many MANY state employees in NYS that wouldn't last a week in a private sector employment.

[mad8vskillz]

Guess what, if it really was that much better in the private sector, I'm pretty sure people would be looking for jobs there.

but then they'd be required to um, you know, do something...

[VarianceVQ]

Wisconsin just elected their governor; the taxpayers of WI voted him in, they have spoken. Meanwhile those same taxpayers are hard at work, while this group of public employees is rallying against them (and getting paid sick time!?!) Sure looks like biting the hand that feeds.

State workers don't pay taxes? That's news to me.

And he got 52% of the vote. That's hardly a mandate. You make it sound as though they are protesting in opposition of a vast majority will.

[zukiphile]

Let's get something straight. Are some teachers and public workers overpaid? Absolutely. Does that mean we should completely get rid of unions? No way.

In looking for a remedy to overpayment of government employees, it makes sense to see how they came to be that way. Public sector unions that play on the necessity of their members, theen strategically withdraw services for the purpose of gaining the agreement of cities and school boards to spend other peoples' money are a significant part of the current problem.

The problem is that it's easy to conflate different areas and different benefits. Here in Ohio for example, most city employees pay nothing for healthcare and nothing towards their pension.

That's not realy fair or true. PERS and STRS(for teachers) are funded by contributions from their salaries.

However, their actual take home pay is very low compared to a similar private sector job. State workers pay 10% towards their pension and hundreds per year towards health insurance premiums. But the pay is slightly better than city workers. Also if you look at "average" public and private sector pay, the private is way lower. Why? Because there are no Wal Mart greeter or burger flipper jobs in government. Most everybody has some sort of either academic or educational training required because the jobs are generally higher skilled.

That's well wide of the mark. What is the private sector equivalent of a bailiff? What private sector secretaries can't type? What is the academic qualification for driving an ODOT salt truck? Which private sector jobs involve getting afternoon's off so you can help your patron campaign?

Thus, its easy for pundits to point to certain benefits and say "this is way out of line with the private sector", and they're technically not wrong if you have tunnel vision.

No tunnel vision involved. Outside of public sector union jobs and increasingly rare private sector union employment, barely anyone else in the rest of the job market is permitted excellent medical benefits with only nominal contributions, and a functioning retirement system (not that they don't deserve the latter; they paid for it).

The union I'm in agreed to a salary freeze two years ago as well as 20 days of furlough to help the state save money. Now if the unions were all selfish and didn't care about the state, would they have done that?

Of course.

[Big Dac With Fries]

What is so horrible about being a teacher? The summers off? What horrible conditions are they subjected to?

It seems that these teachers really care about their students.

I'm only saying this because I thought the same thing, then I became a teacher.

It's mid-day on a stat. holiday and i'm busy writing a test for my students on Thursday.

While school ends at 2:30, I usually stick around to help the slower students catch up, or to help them out with their post-secondary choices that they've got to make.

I also have to spend my time off maintaining/cleaning/repairing the machines so my kids can work or don't get hurt using something that's been ghetto-rigged.

My point is, I guess this job (teaching) is easy when you teach with your wallet instead of your heart. Life sure would be a lot easier if I just swept the every troubled kid that came into my class into the next grade and onto the next teacher, but I don't. I realize that some of these "misfits" are really going to shine when they find their calling - and it's my job to help them do just that.

The part that really stings for me, is i've got two weeks left at this job, because there's a union member who's got more seniority than me, and wants my job.

[SomeRandomGuy]

It's mid-day on a stat. holiday and i'm busy writing a test for my students on Thursday.

Most of us don't get this day off at all.

While school ends at 2:30, I usually stick around to help the slower students catch up, or to help them out with their post-secondary choices that they've got to make.

That's your choice to make.

The part that really stings for me, is i've got two weeks left at this job, because there's a union member who's got more seniority than me, and wants my job.

And this helps your argument how? Unions apparently help maintain the status quo, while letting go of people who seem to actually care about the job.

If anything, this is an argument for exactly WHY public sector unions have got to go.

[Fritz27]

I'm only saying this because I thought the same thing, then I became a teacher.

It's mid-day on a stat. holiday and i'm busy writing a test for my students on Thursday.

While school ends at 2:30, I usually stick around to help the slower students catch up, or to help them out with their post-secondary choices that they've got to make.

I also have to spend my time off maintaining/cleaning/repairing the machines so my kids can work or don't get hurt using something that's been ghetto-rigged.

My point is, I guess this job (teaching) is easy when you teach with your wallet instead of your heart. Life sure would be a lot easier if I just swept the every troubled kid that came into my class into the next grade and onto the next teacher, but I don't. I realize that some of these "misfits" are really going to shine when they find their calling - and it's my job to help them do just that.

The part that really stings for me, is i've got two weeks left at this job, because there's a union member who's got more seniority than me, and wants my job.

Not to be a dick, but lots of people have to take work home with them.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Not to be a dick, but lots of people have to take work home with them.

Yep. In the private sector, this is a basic expectation.

I just don't get the sense of entitlement and self-importance that teachers have. I really don't.

"Oooh, we're special... We're shaping young minds, blah blah blah."

Guess what, lots of people have lots of very special jobs that are just as important, if not more important.

If you wanted an easy 9-5 job, you shouldn't have become a teacher. It's not like there's some big secret about what's expected of teachers.

[spockcat]

Isn't the real issue here the rising cost of retirement benefits and health care (including health care in retirement)?

ABC News had some statistics on the other night about how much better these benefits are for public sector workers. http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2011...te-sector.html

RETIREMENT BENEFITS

Public sector workers also are significantly more likely to have traditional pension plans – called “defined benefit” plans. The latest data from BLS showed 20 percent of workers in the private sector have pension plans. In the public sector, defined benefit plan coverage is four times greater -- about 79 percent.

HEALTH CARE BENEFITS

The latest Kaiser Family Foundation survey on the costs of health insurance showed government workers are more likely to be offered health insurance while they work and in retirement.

In retail firms, for example, only 48 percent of workers were covered by health benefits offered by their firm (the worst industry for insurance coverage), compared to 80 percent of workers in state and local government (the best industry for insurance coverage).

And those state/local government employees are paying less for coverage than their private sector neighbors.

Data from Kaiser shows the average employee cost for “family” health coverage was around $3,700 in the latest year. Employees in the service sector pay about $4,200 for similar family coverage, mostly because their employers require a bigger contribution from the employee to get the benefit.

While there are arguments that the public sector employees gave up pay for these benefits, I'm not sure that shortfall in pay is enough to make up for the long term costs of the health care and retirement benefits.

WAGES

The latest data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (2009) show that government workers make about 5 percent more than private sector workers on average.

But, as can be seen in the following chart, the headline numbers hide some major disparities beyond the headlines.

Average Annual Wage
Federal Govt. Workers $67,756
State Police $61,000
Local Firefighters $60,572
State Govt. Workers $48,742
State Legislative Workers $48,129
Government (all types) $47,552
Private (total sector) $45,155
Local Govt. Workers $43,140
Local Schools $41,113

Average Annual Wage
Private Sector CPA $71,216
Federal Govt. CPA $67,531
Local Govt. CPA $64,050

SOURCE: BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS, 2009

Also, I don't believe that these benefits are taxed, thus making them even more lucrative. On the other hand, as a business owner myself, what my company pays for my health care IS TAXED by the government.



You might also review this website: http://wallstreetpit.com/16385-the-t...private-sector



And this one: http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/166349.html

Protesters at the Wisconsin capitol enter their sixth day of battling Governor Scott Walker and his plan to end collective bargaining for some state employees. According to the governor, the state is facing a $137 million budget shortfall for the current fiscal year and a $3.6 billion shortfall for the next.



The bill for Wisconsin is estimated to save $30 million by the first of July and $300 million during the next two years. The governor says in order to achieve those savings; public employees must pay half the cost for their pensions and roughly 12 percent of their healthcare costs. If the bill does not pass, Mr. Walker has said he will lay off up to 6,000 public employees. Gather.com



Highlights



According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (2009), government workers make about 5 percent more than private sector workers on average.



In 2010, the Bureau of Labor Statistics data showed that 36.2 percent of public sector workers were unionized. That's compared to a 6.9 percent union membership rate for private sector workers.



Public sector workers are significantly more likely to have traditional pension plans - called "defined benefit" plans.



The latest Kaiser Family Foundation survey on the costs of health insurance shows government workers are more likely to be offered health insurance while they work and in retirement.



Wages



According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (2009), government workers make about 5 percent more than private sector workers on average.



Local teachers make 9 percent less than the average private sector worker.



And federal employees are substantially better paid than the average state worker.



Union Membership



In 2010, the Bureau of Labor Statistics data showed that 36.2 percent of public sector workers were unionized. That's compared to a 6.9 percent union membership rate for private sector workers.



Workers in education, training, and library occupations had the highest unionization rate at 37.1 percent.



Retirement Benefits



Public sector workers are significantly more likely to have traditional pension plans - called "defined benefit" plans.



According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 20 percent of workers in the private sector have pension plans. In the public sector, defined benefit plan coverage is four times greater -- about 79 percent.



Health Care Benefits



The latest Kaiser Family Foundation survey on the costs of health insurance shows government workers are more likely to be offered health insurance while they work and in retirement.



State/local government employees are paying less for health care coverage than their private sector neighbors.



In Wisconsin



Wisconsin state workers have a median wage of $45,691. That's 22 percent more than the median wage earned by workers in the private sector.



The state workforce is much better educated than the private-sector workforce.



In Wisconsin, more than 60 percent of state workers have at least a bachelor's degree, compared with just over 20 percent in the private sector.



Wisconsin has an estimated $3.6 billion deficit.



SB/SM/DB

[GeoffD]

Not to be a dick, but lots of people have to take work home with them.

No kidding. I've logged about 20 hours so far this holiday weekend.

It sure will be nice when June 20th rolls around and I have 2+ months paid vacation.... oh.... wait.... I only get 3 weeks paid vacation and 9 paid holidays. I worked Christmas week. I don't get a spring break. I don't have tenure. I don't have a company paid pension. I pay for a pretty big chunk of my benefits package.

[rimtrim]

It sure will be nice when June 20th rolls around and I have 2+ months paid vacation.... oh.... wait.... I only get 3 weeks paid vacation and 9 paid holidays. I worked Christmas week. I don't get a spring break. I don't have tenure. I don't have a company paid pension. I pay for a pretty big chunk of my benefits package.

We have this uniquely American attitude that if things suck for me, they ought to suck at least as much for everybody else.

Rather than saying, if somebody else has it better than me, I should fight to have what they have.

I really don't get that. I guess it's the legacy of Protestant self-denial that we inherited from the Puritans or something.

-Andrew L

[classicjetta]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

[zukiphile]

We have this uniquely American attitude that if things suck for me, they ought to suck at least as much for everybody else.

I promise you that such an attitude is not uniquely american.

If teachers want to be regarded and paid as professionals, it is appropriate to ask why they don't maintain the kind of work schedule other professionals do.

[mad8vskillz]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

i have 0 paid time off and pay for 100% of my benefits and pay additional taxes (self employed), and yes, it would be nice to have paid vacation, but no, i wouldn't put that as a priority in my decisions.

[SomeRandomGuy]

We have this uniquely American attitude that if things suck for me, they ought to suck at least as much for everybody else.

That isn't it at all. It's just that the rest of us haven't got unrealistic ideas about what we're "owed".

[SAPJetta]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

I want the states budget reeled in. If this means government workers lose some pay and pay a little more for their benefits, so be it.

It's not about them getting the same benefits, or lack of benefits, that I have, but about the state paying far too much for far too little in return from the state workers. It's time for the easy ride to end. Start busting ass like the rest of us. You get recognized and rewarded for hard work, not simply because you were hired.

[rimtrim]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

Like I said, I don't get it either. I work in education (but not public or unionized) because we get a lot of vacation time and if you do your job right the first time, you usually don't have to put in much time outside of normal working hours. I would never work under the kind of conditions that a lot of private-sector people have to deal with, regardless of how high the pay is. I can understand it if they love their job and it's like a hobby to them (I get that satisfaction from my side business, not my main job) but if you don't enjoy it, what's the benefit? Extra money? Where do you get the time to enjoy the stuff you can buy with the money?

In my job I tend to have the opposite problem...I have to come in here but there is nothing substantial for me to do because I can't grease the wheels of the rest of the organization to get what I need. Like right now, I need to order some equipment for a project, but I have nowhere to install the equipment and the meeting that was supposed to decide where I can install it has been postponed 3 times in 2 weeks. But at least I can go home when the workday is over and I don't have somebody expecting me to work nights and weekends for no extra pay or comp time. I don't know how anybody can live like that, unless they're desperate and have no other choice.

-Andrew L

[SOAR]

I see a lot of jealous private sector workers in here.

[zukiphile]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

Having a normal professional life and paying for health insurance isn't being "screwed over", unless someother group gets what they shouldn't from others by way of political maneuvering. Formulating public employment policy based on what you want merits ridicule.

[Seabird]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

That is certainly one perspective; one way to look at it. As a private sector employee, that's not how I choose to see it.

I recognize that operating capital can be difficult to obtain. There are lean times and fat times, depending on the financial environment. It is widely recognized that due to this extended recession, tax revenues are down across all levels of government.

We're all having to tighten our belts, but those in the public sector don't seem to understand that they're inextricably linked to us. If we're making less money, how does it make sense for you to ask us to continue putting the same amount of money into the public coffers? How is this rational?

[GeoffD]

Like I said, I don't get it either. I work in education (but not public or unionized) because we get a lot of vacation time and if you do your job right the first time, you usually don't have to put in much time outside of normal working hours. I would never work under the kind of conditions that a lot of private-sector people have to deal with, regardless of how high the pay is. I can understand it if they love their job and it's like a hobby to them (I get that satisfaction from my side business, not my main job) but if you don't enjoy it, what's the benefit? Extra money? Where do you get the time to enjoy the stuff you can buy with the money?

In my job I tend to have the opposite problem...I have to come in here but there is nothing substantial for me to do because I can't grease the wheels of the rest of the organization to get what I need. Like right now, I need to order some equipment for a project, but I have nowhere to install the equipment and the meeting that was supposed to decide where I can install it has been postponed 3 times in 2 weeks. But at least I can go home when the workday is over and I don't have somebody expecting me to work nights and weekends for no extra pay or comp time. I don't know how anybody can live like that, unless they're desperate and have no other choice.

-Andrew L

This kind of attitude is the explanation for why jobs keep drifting offshore to Asia. We live in a world economy. Those of us who have jobs that can be done offshore have to be at least as productive per dollar spent as anyone anywhere else in the world. Our labor generates the wealth in the economy that funds everything else. You can't pay doctors, lawyers, teachers, policemen, etc high wages if the country doesn't generate the wealth to pay the bills.

[rimtrim]

I promise you that such an attitude is not uniquely american.

If teachers want to be regarded and paid as professionals, it is appropriate to ask why they don't maintain the kind of work schedule other professionals do.

There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries. Do you think that's the ideal state of things or do you think that's a problem? Personally, I think it's a problem. If you think it's ideal, fine, but refer to what I said about Puritan self-denial

-Andrew L

[Sump]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

It's called competition. Harsh reality I know, but the only way around that is regulation. Look at working conditions around the turn of 20th century. It was a nightmare, but that was people doing anything to beat out the competition. But that's what drives us forward. Regulate it to the point where their is no competition we might as well just throw in the towel.

[SomeRandomGuy]

There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries.

It just means we aren't lazy and entitled.

[zukiphile]

There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries. Do you think that's the ideal state of things or do you think that's a problem? Personally, I think it's a problem. If you think it's ideal, fine, but refer to what I said about Puritan self-denial

-Andrew L

There is no self-denial in doing a job you like. If a public sector employee dislikes his work so much that he can't bear to think of working past 3pm, nine months a year, he could take his special talents elsewhere.

I understand the attraction of an easy job, but it doesn't fit well with a complaint of being underpaid.

[JCJetta]

Question for all you private sector folks: I realize that your benefits suck and you have no time off, but is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather have a more balanced working environment? All I'm hearing is that you've been screwed over so you want everybody else to be too.

No, I want to work in an environment whereby my success is predicated upon my performance, not the collective general output of a group, or the time I have served. I also enjoy the freedom of knowing if I do not like the work environment I am at, I can seek employment elsewhere.

You make it sound as though they are protesting in opposition of a vast majority will.

Yeah, I do. It's pretty clear that is the case here. If anything the protestors have the majority of, it is in voice. The opposition is not going to "call in sick" during to come speak their side (though I do recognize there finally is some opposing protests currently underway). Never mind unions are bussing in other workers outside of the state to join the protests. Never mind school districts have been forced to shut down due to lack of teaching faculty. That is the kind of outcome that is not helping their cause one bit.

[Seabird]

There are a lot of studies showing that Americans spend more time working and get less vacation than almost all other developed countries. Do you think that's the ideal state of things or do you think that's a problem? Personally, I think it's a problem. If you think it's ideal, fine, but refer to what I said about Puritan self-denial

-Andrew L

Do any of these studies hold up certain Mediterranean nations as models? Do any of these studies include some of the DEEP austerity measures being looked at and undertaken since last spring?

[rimtrim]

This kind of attitude is the explanation for why jobs keep drifting offshore to Asia. We live in a world economy. Those of us who have jobs that can be done offshore have to be at least as productive per dollar spent as anyone anywhere else in the world. Our labor generates the wealth in the economy that funds everything else. You can't pay doctors, lawyers, teachers, policemen, etc high wages if the country doesn't generate the wealth to pay the bills.

What "kind of attitude" do you mean? The attitude that I shouldn't have to spend all my waking hours working to make money I can't use for anything meaningful because I spend all my waking hours working?

I'm not advocating laziness, just sanity. The idea that pushing people harder and harder and making workers miserable improves productivity is a false economy.

-Andrew L