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    Thread: My governor is a retard.

    1. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 07:52 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Big Morgan View Post
      I wonder if Wisconsin Republicans would have such solid control of their state government if they had campaigned on a "busting the teachers' union" platform.
      Probably.
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      02-21-2011 08:10 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      There's a difference between being treated fairly and being treated equally. For example, here in NJ, if you're a teacher, are in the teacher's union, and teach at a public school, it doesn't matter how good or bad of a teacher you are, you get the same raise and benefits as all the other teachers get. And lets not even talk about the benefits that government workers get that people in the private sector don't. You know, like pensions. Pensions are pretty much gone in the private sector, and have been for the better part of 25 years. Then there are things like free health care, etc.

      Maybe they're agreeing to cuts / concessions in Wisconsin, but not here in NJ. They're kicking and screaming about them. In fact, the teacher's union is running a big media campaign against the proposed reform of the tenure system. The governor wants a system where you actually are evaluated, and subsequently compensated on of all things, how good a job you do. The nerve!

      In NJ, we pay pretty much the highest property taxes in the country. And it's because of the public education system in this state. We have school boards in municipalities that don't even have any schools. And those all have administrators and staff. Of the $63xx.xx I pay each year in property taxes, over $5000.00 goes to the school budget.
      [Orson Wells clap]

      Here's hoping Ohio's bill passes.
      & my wife's a teacher, BTW.
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    3. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 09:32 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by redwe-in-wi View Post
      As middle class Wisconsin resident, and private industry union member (IBEW);
      so how does it feel to not be competitive with the non-union electricians?

      my buddy is part of a small non-union shop. They make better money, get jobs done cheaper and quicker, but have to deal with the constant possibility of union guys trashing their equipment.
      Last edited by mad8vskillz; 02-21-2011 at 09:52 AM.
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      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

    4. 02-21-2011 10:25 AM #29
      I sincerely hope that every teacher who got a fake "sick note" so they could go protest instead of working loses their job and pension.

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      02-21-2011 10:46 AM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by redwe-in-wi View Post
      What do expect of a college dropout governor? Wisconsin should ashamed we elected this clown.
      What then is your solution to Wisconsin's massive debt of 3.6 billion? Don't say higher taxes; that will not work any more.

      I fully approve of what Mr. Walker (dumb like a fox) is doing.

    6. Senior Member SAPJetta's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 11:29 AM #31
      I could only hope for such a bill in CA.

      I can understand why the teachers and other union members are upset. The easy money is being threatened to be pulled out from under them. Heaven forbid they actually get pay and benefits based on performance like the rest of the non-union working world.

      Unions had their time. Now they are simply a leech on the butt of America.

      Everyone wants their budgets under control until it means that they have to give something up or pay more to help reign in the budget.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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      02-21-2011 11:38 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by David Mays View Post
      I sincerely hope that every teacher who got a fake "sick note" so they could go protest instead of working loses their job and pension.
      Seriously. Especially the ones holding up signs that say "I teach because I care."

      Obviously you care about your paycheck more than you care about your students, wretch.
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    8. Member JCJetta's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 12:55 PM #33
      It’s not like it would be difficult to replace the teachers of Wisconsin if they drive themselves out of their own jobs. Michigan has more than enough unemployed or underemployed college graduates with teaching degrees that would be more than happy to fill them, even with wages and fringes more in-line with the private sector.

      Wisconsin just elected their governor; the taxpayers of WI voted him in, they have spoken. Meanwhile those same taxpayers are hard at work, while this group of public employees is rallying against them (and getting paid sick time!?!) Sure looks like biting the hand that feeds.

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      02-21-2011 01:14 PM #34
      So wait, they raise healthcare costs 12% and end collective bargaining and people riot????

      Have these people seen healthcare costs? 24 States don't have collective bargaining for state employees. It's nothing new.

    10. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 01:14 PM #35
      When the EU and IMF forced Greece to slash their budget, everybody in the US nodded their heads that this was the correct action and shook their heads at the demonstrations and riots.

      Education is the single largest expense in state & local government. You have to tackle the waste and overspending there first. I'd love to have a job where I have tenure for life and cushy early retirement with full benefits unless I get bagged sleeping with a 14 year old or have a felony arrest.

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      02-21-2011 01:16 PM #36
      Let's get something straight. Are some teachers and public workers overpaid? Absolutely. Does that mean we should completely get rid of unions? No way.

      The problem is that it's easy to conflate different areas and different benefits. Here in Ohio for example, most city employees pay nothing for healthcare and nothing towards their pension. However, their actual take home pay is very low compared to a similar private sector job. State workers pay 10% towards their pension and hundreds per year towards health insurance premiums. But the pay is slightly better than city workers. Also if you look at "average" public and private sector pay, the private is way lower. Why? Because there are no Wal Mart greeter or burger flipper jobs in government. Most everybody has some sort of either academic or educational training required because the jobs are generally higher skilled.

      Thus, its easy for pundits to point to certain benefits and say "this is way out of line with the private sector", and they're technically not wrong if you have tunnel vision.

      Studies from non-partisan sources show that public employees as a whole are NOT overpaid. I'm sure there are plenty of studies from the Competitive Enterprise Institute and other oh-so-neutral sources that show public workers are vastly overpaid, but as shown above, it's easy to confuse certain aspects of compensation.

      http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...ation_penalty/

      The union I'm in agreed to a salary freeze two years ago as well as 20 days of furlough to help the state save money. Now if the unions were all selfish and didn't care about the state, would they have done that? The problem here is this debate in Wisconsin and Ohio has all been the Repubs saying "die bitches" rather than "hey we need to make some adjustments, let's work together and find out what can be done".

    12. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 01:17 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      I'd love to have a job where I have tenure for life and cushy early retirement with full benefits unless I get bagged sleeping with a 14 year old or have a felony arrest.
      I think I may be the only one ever that got in, and despite the "awsum gubbmint job" quit after three months, drove me nuts how unmotivated government employees are.
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      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

    13. Member crazysimi's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 01:18 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by David Mays View Post
      I sincerely hope that every teacher who got a fake "sick note" so they could go protest instead of working loses their job and pension.



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      02-21-2011 01:19 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by mad8vskillz View Post
      I think I may be the only one ever that got in, and despite the "awsum gubbmint job" quit after three months, drove me nuts how unmotivated government employees are.
      Wow you've met all government employees everywhere? Congrats, you're a popular guy!

    15. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 01:22 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Wow you've met all government employees everywhere? Congrats, you're a popular guy!
      just all the ones i've needed to interact with at the DOD... those DODOs are a waste of life.
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      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

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      02-21-2011 01:23 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by crazysimi View Post

      Also agree. Our health insurance at work went up over 150% since I started 5 years ago. I'd protest, but then I'd be replaced by the next guy waiting in line to take my job.

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      02-21-2011 01:33 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Let's get something straight. Are some teachers and public workers overpaid? Absolutely. Does that mean we should completely get rid of unions? No way.

      The problem is that it's easy to conflate different areas and different benefits. Here in Ohio for example, most city employees pay nothing for healthcare and nothing towards their pension. However, their actual take home pay is very low compared to a similar private sector job. State workers pay 10% towards their pension and hundreds per year towards health insurance premiums. But the pay is slightly better than city workers. Also if you look at "average" public and private sector pay, the private is way lower. Why? Because there are no Wal Mart greeter or burger flipper jobs in government. Most everybody has some sort of either academic or educational training required because the jobs are generally higher skilled.

      Thus, its easy for pundits to point to certain benefits and say "this is way out of line with the private sector", and they're technically not wrong if you have tunnel vision.

      Studies from non-partisan sources show that public employees as a whole are NOT overpaid. I'm sure there are plenty of studies from the Competitive Enterprise Institute and other oh-so-neutral sources that show public workers are vastly overpaid, but as shown above, it's easy to confuse certain aspects of compensation.

      http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...ation_penalty/

      The union I'm in agreed to a salary freeze two years ago as well as 20 days of furlough to help the state save money. Now if the unions were all selfish and didn't care about the state, would they have done that? The problem here is this debate in Wisconsin and Ohio has all been the Repubs saying "die bitches" rather than "hey we need to make some adjustments, let's work together and find out what can be done".
      You're kidding, right? They did it because the alternative was to have a significant # of people lose their jobs. Thought I read something about one of the auto unions not wanting to make any concessions and it ended up costing about 20% of the workers their jobs.

      And honestly, how many times are public sector workers going to trot out that hackneyed bit about how they're underpaid compared to private sector workers? Guess what, if it really was that much better in the private sector, I'm pretty sure people would be looking for jobs there.
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      02-21-2011 01:33 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by Sump View Post
      Also agree. Our health insurance at work went up over 150% since I started 5 years ago. I'd protest, but then I'd be replaced by the next guy waiting in line to take my job.
      Exactly. There are many MANY state employees in NYS that wouldn't last a week in a private sector employment.

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      02-21-2011 01:35 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Racer View Post
      Guess what, if it really was that much better in the private sector, I'm pretty sure people would be looking for jobs there.
      but then they'd be required to um, you know, do something...
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      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

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      02-21-2011 01:35 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by JCJetta View Post
      Wisconsin just elected their governor; the taxpayers of WI voted him in, they have spoken. Meanwhile those same taxpayers are hard at work, while this group of public employees is rallying against them (and getting paid sick time!?!) Sure looks like biting the hand that feeds.
      State workers don't pay taxes? That's news to me.

      And he got 52% of the vote. That's hardly a mandate. You make it sound as though they are protesting in opposition of a vast majority will.
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      02-21-2011 01:37 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Let's get something straight. Are some teachers and public workers overpaid? Absolutely. Does that mean we should completely get rid of unions? No way.
      In looking for a remedy to overpayment of government employees, it makes sense to see how they came to be that way. Public sector unions that play on the necessity of their members, theen strategically withdraw services for the purpose of gaining the agreement of cities and school boards to spend other peoples' money are a significant part of the current problem.

      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      The problem is that it's easy to conflate different areas and different benefits. Here in Ohio for example, most city employees pay nothing for healthcare and nothing towards their pension.
      That's not realy fair or true. PERS and STRS(for teachers) are funded by contributions from their salaries.

      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      However, their actual take home pay is very low compared to a similar private sector job. State workers pay 10% towards their pension and hundreds per year towards health insurance premiums. But the pay is slightly better than city workers. Also if you look at "average" public and private sector pay, the private is way lower. Why? Because there are no Wal Mart greeter or burger flipper jobs in government. Most everybody has some sort of either academic or educational training required because the jobs are generally higher skilled.
      That's well wide of the mark. What is the private sector equivalent of a bailiff? What private sector secretaries can't type? What is the academic qualification for driving an ODOT salt truck? Which private sector jobs involve getting afternoon's off so you can help your patron campaign?

      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      Thus, its easy for pundits to point to certain benefits and say "this is way out of line with the private sector", and they're technically not wrong if you have tunnel vision.
      No tunnel vision involved. Outside of public sector union jobs and increasingly rare private sector union employment, barely anyone else in the rest of the job market is permitted excellent medical benefits with only nominal contributions, and a functioning retirement system (not that they don't deserve the latter; they paid for it).

      Quote Originally Posted by classicjetta View Post
      The union I'm in agreed to a salary freeze two years ago as well as 20 days of furlough to help the state save money. Now if the unions were all selfish and didn't care about the state, would they have done that?
      Of course.

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      02-21-2011 01:48 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by NoDubJustYet View Post
      What is so horrible about being a teacher? The summers off? What horrible conditions are they subjected to?

      It seems that these teachers really care about their students.
      I'm only saying this because I thought the same thing, then I became a teacher.

      It's mid-day on a stat. holiday and i'm busy writing a test for my students on Thursday.

      While school ends at 2:30, I usually stick around to help the slower students catch up, or to help them out with their post-secondary choices that they've got to make.

      I also have to spend my time off maintaining/cleaning/repairing the machines so my kids can work or don't get hurt using something that's been ghetto-rigged.

      My point is, I guess this job (teaching) is easy when you teach with your wallet instead of your heart. Life sure would be a lot easier if I just swept the every troubled kid that came into my class into the next grade and onto the next teacher, but I don't. I realize that some of these "misfits" are really going to shine when they find their calling - and it's my job to help them do just that.

      The part that really stings for me, is i've got two weeks left at this job, because there's a union member who's got more seniority than me, and wants my job.
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    23. 02-21-2011 01:56 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Big Dac With Fries View Post
      It's mid-day on a stat. holiday and i'm busy writing a test for my students on Thursday.
      Most of us don't get this day off at all.

      While school ends at 2:30, I usually stick around to help the slower students catch up, or to help them out with their post-secondary choices that they've got to make.
      That's your choice to make.

      The part that really stings for me, is i've got two weeks left at this job, because there's a union member who's got more seniority than me, and wants my job.


      And this helps your argument how? Unions apparently help maintain the status quo, while letting go of people who seem to actually care about the job.

      If anything, this is an argument for exactly WHY public sector unions have got to go.

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      02-21-2011 02:00 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by Big Dac With Fries View Post
      I'm only saying this because I thought the same thing, then I became a teacher.

      It's mid-day on a stat. holiday and i'm busy writing a test for my students on Thursday.

      While school ends at 2:30, I usually stick around to help the slower students catch up, or to help them out with their post-secondary choices that they've got to make.

      I also have to spend my time off maintaining/cleaning/repairing the machines so my kids can work or don't get hurt using something that's been ghetto-rigged.

      My point is, I guess this job (teaching) is easy when you teach with your wallet instead of your heart. Life sure would be a lot easier if I just swept the every troubled kid that came into my class into the next grade and onto the next teacher, but I don't. I realize that some of these "misfits" are really going to shine when they find their calling - and it's my job to help them do just that.

      The part that really stings for me, is i've got two weeks left at this job, because there's a union member who's got more seniority than me, and wants my job.
      Not to be a dick, but lots of people have to take work home with them.

    25. 02-21-2011 02:04 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Not to be a dick, but lots of people have to take work home with them.
      Yep. In the private sector, this is a basic expectation.

      I just don't get the sense of entitlement and self-importance that teachers have. I really don't.

      "Oooh, we're special... We're shaping young minds, blah blah blah."

      Guess what, lots of people have lots of very special jobs that are just as important, if not more important.

      If you wanted an easy 9-5 job, you shouldn't have become a teacher. It's not like there's some big secret about what's expected of teachers.

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