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    Thread: My governor is a retard.

    1. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:41 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      It means that there are fewer resources at the disposal of the public school district to educate, and relatively more resources under private control.
      That is not the case. The money doesn't get "saved", it just gets redirected from the schools that need it the most. The private sector isn't going to go into a down and out district and save the kids that need the most help.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      They make my ass look pretty.

    2. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:44 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Are we allowed to ask why we expect poor service from the current crop of union represented and adequately paid government service personnel?
      If you want to improve the service at the DMV, then let's tackle that problem. But I'm pretty sure slashing wages and busting unions isn't going to do it. New Jersey was able to do it. Ask any New Jerseyan what they remember about Jim McGreevey...their answer will either have something to do with gay extramarital affairs, or about how he fixed the DMV

      Or, look up the This American Life episode about the GM/Toyota NUMMI plant. There's an example of how to turn a poor workforce into a great one, AND have happier workers, AND not engage in union-busting and pay slashing. You do it by having better processes and rewarding quality. That's not mutually exclusive with good pay and collective bargaining.

      Well, teachers are a crucial lynchpin to unlocking our childrens' future, or they are dullards and slackers, but not both simultaneously, right?
      I just meant that the schools have trouble recruiting and keeping the best teachers. I was in public school from K-12...some teachers were fantastic, some were just coasting till retirement. Adding some performance-based standards seems like a common-sense thing to do, but it's tricky. Standardized tests don't tell the whole story, only who is best at teaching to the test. Actually I think the people who can tell you best which teachers are good and which are bad are the students, but we'll never get any buy-in on that from either the left or the right because we all assume that if they knew anything they wouldn't be students.

      Anyway, point is, none of this stuff requires eliminating unions and slashing pay and benefits. If this were really all about improving the quality of public education by recruiting and keeping good teachers, I would be all for it.

      -Andrew L
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    3. Banned zukiphile's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:47 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      Indeed.



      It means that there are fewer resources at the disposal of the public school district to educate, and relatively more resources under private control.

      If the school board and administration are the problem, defunding them is a fine solution.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      That is not the case. The money doesn't get "saved", it just gets redirected from the schools that need it the most.
      I think your focus is incorrect. Instead of focusing on which schools need money, shouldn't the focus be on which schools serve students well?

      If a restaurant serves patrons poorly, the customers go elsewhere and it closes. If you make a product consumers do not like, you shut down and the resources you might have used are used in the pursuit of something people do want.

      Only where the state enforces a monopoly do we imagine that failure is an indication that more money is needed.

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      02-21-2011 03:49 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      If you want to improve the service at the DMV, then let's tackle that problem. But I'm pretty sure
      Anyway, point is, none of this stuff requires eliminating unions and slashing pay and benefits. If this were really all about improving the quality of public education by recruiting and keeping good teachers, I would be all for it.

      -Andrew L
      I think this part "eliminating unions and slashing pay and benefits" is about keeping states solvent. Our educational system is broken. Consider

      Why should I be forced to pay more for a faulty product?

    5. Senior Member Big Dac With Fries's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:52 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      I just meant that the schools have trouble recruiting and keeping the best teachers. I was in public school from K-12...some teachers were fantastic, some were just coasting till retirement. Adding some performance-based standards seems like a common-sense thing to do, but it's tricky. Standardized tests don't tell the whole story, only who is best at teaching to the test. Actually I think the people who can tell you best which teachers are good and which are bad are the students, but we'll never get any buy-in on that from either the left or the right because we all assume that if they knew anything they wouldn't be students.
      You make some very valid points.
      Want to roll your fenders or Lamin-X your lights in clear or yellow for THE ABSOLUTE CHEAPEST PRICE IN THE GTA? IM me!
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    6. Senior Member SAPJetta's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:55 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by 2Cor View Post
      I think this part "eliminating unions and slashing pay and benefits" is about keeping states solvent. Our educational system is broken. Consider

      Why should I be forced to pay more for a faulty product?
      Those are perfect graphs.

      Scores have stayed about the same while costs have soared. I'm also not a big supporter of the smaller classroom movement. I did just fine in classes with 30+ kids in them. Smaller classrooms mean more teachers. More teachers collecting pay and benefits without any sort of return.

      Back to smaller classrooms, ask them to pay more for health care (not sure why this one is so tough when many people pay far more for worse health care), make pay based on performance and replace those 'teachers' who just don't seem to get the whole teaching thing.

      I'm not just for targeting teachers either. Government needs to take a long, hard look at every single office, job and employee and determine whether or not they are necessary and whether or not the pay is in line with the output and performance of that employee.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

    7. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:56 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by 2Cor View Post
      Why should I be forced to pay more for a faulty product?
      I've wondered the same thing about health insurance but you conservatives don't seem to see it that way

      As I said, I'm not against education reform. It's the idea that somehow we will slash pay and benefits, and improve public education at the same time that I'm against, because it's silly. The people proposing it know it's silly. They don't really want to improve public education at all, they want to eliminate it, or turn it into a last resort for those who can't afford private school. But that idea will only fly with a small percentage of voters, so they sugar-coat it by saying that we can eliminate all this "waste" and then we can have our cake and eat it too.

      -Andrew L
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    8. Banned zukiphile's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 03:56 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      I've wondered the same thing about health insurance but you conservatives don't seem to see it that way
      I think you have the positions reversed

      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      They don't really want to improve public education at all, they want to eliminate it, or turn it into a last resort for those who can't afford private school.
      They want to turn it into what it is now?

      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      If you want to improve the service at the DMV, then let's tackle that problem. But I'm pretty sure slashing wages and busting unions isn't going to do it.
      I am not as sure as you are.

      I can think of one arrangement in which I would have no objection to a public school teachers union: have the money follow the student. After special needs students allocations are made split up the remaining money and allocate it to each student to attend where ever his parents choose.
      Last edited by zukiphile; 02-21-2011 at 03:59 PM.

    9. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:03 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      A lot of you people need to STOP with the idea that education is a viable for-profit business model. NCLB is a failure. Defunding schools that don't produce test score increases just compounds the problem.

      I am FOR performance based review of teachers- but arguing that the teacher is the sole reason your kids suck at life is the problem. For the past 3 years, my wife has had 95% + meeting or exceeding their state testing goals. This year she thinks it will be about 80%, because she has a group of little monsters with even worse parents. She must be a horrible teacher if only 80% can pass their tests.

      Defunding schools means that there are less resources for teachers and schools to educate. Those fewer resources do not "motivate" people to produce better results. They just make the mountain that much harder to climb.

      Wanna trim waste from the school system? Look at the admin, school boards, and facilities. All three have redundancies, wastes, and outright fraud that should make most taxpayers puke.
      It's not "the American way" but I imagine your wife would be much happier if the school segregated the 'good' students from 'the little monsters'? The reason why people send their children to private schools is because they toss out 'the little monsters' so they don't slow down the rest of the class. The quality of the teaching is otherwise likely comparable.

      Part of the whole problem with schools (and police/fire) is that local politicians control salaries. The unions have the whole negotiation process down pat. Some unpaid volunteer sitting on the school board is going to have a tough time pushing back on wage & benefit demands. They likely don't negotiate salaries for a living and their phone is ringing off the hook because everybody in the town is a teacher, related to a teacher, or has a neighbor who is a teacher. The way you fix this is to take away local control of public education. Fund it through state taxes instead of local property taxes. Make teachers be state employees. Today, most states have some mechanism to feed money to cities and towns to at least partially fund public education but they don't have any control over compensation.

    10. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:07 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      I think you have the positions reversed
      Um...not to derail the thread, but the "faulty product" is the current insurance market that likes to charge people out the wazoo and then deny coverage. The "pay more" is the ever-increasing costs on the private insurance market.

      They did teach me SAT-style analogies in my inferior public schooling

      They want to turn it into what it is now?
      Not all public schools are like that. In fact I would guess most of them aren't. I had 13 years of public school and I wouldn't trade it for anything. There is room for improvement but except for rough inner-city and poor-rural schools, it's not like a lot of people think. I think that's actually a main part of the problem...people who have never been in a public school have a caricature view of what goes on there.

      -Andrew L
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    11. Banned zukiphile's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:12 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Um...not to derail the thread, but the "faulty product" is the current insurance market that likes to charge people out the wazoo and then deny coverage. The "pay more" is the ever-increasing costs on the private insurance market.
      I understood that. Reform of those markets is a recurring matter in conservative candidacies.

      The current reform resulting from democrat effort compels people to buy an insurance product, increasing demand and price, while not offering a wider market.

      Your analogy wasn't analogous.

      So what would you think of having the money follow the student?
      Last edited by zukiphile; 02-21-2011 at 04:25 PM.

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      02-21-2011 04:13 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      But that idea will only fly with a small percentage of voters, so they sugar-coat it by saying that we can eliminate all this "waste" and then we can have our cake and eat it too.
      A 20 year teacher with tenure cruising along, waiting for retirement is
      benefiting no one but themselves.

      They are absolutely an example of waste that needs trimmed.



      I will echo what Tornado2dr stated. A teacher may be quite good at what they
      do, but if a parent condones crappy behavior from their kid at home, that behavior
      will continue at school. That will affect test scores, the ability of the teacher to focus
      on better students & the good students ability to benefit from class time.

      The reason why people send their children to private schools is because they
      toss out 'the little monsters' so they don't slow down the rest of the class.
      That sometimes depends on who the monsters parents are. I've seen some
      pretty rotten kids in private school get away with quite a bit due to daddy being
      judge so & so.
      Last edited by 2.FOH!!; 02-21-2011 at 04:17 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by GruuvenNorth View Post
      ...and that's how the butthurt get their whiney ways.

    13. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:14 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      It's not "the American way" but I imagine your wife would be much happier if the school segregated the 'good' students from 'the little monsters'? The reason why people send their children to private schools is because they toss out 'the little monsters' so they don't slow down the rest of the class. The quality of the teaching is otherwise likely comparable.

      Part of the whole problem with schools (and police/fire) is that local politicians control salaries. The unions have the whole negotiation process down pat. Some unpaid volunteer sitting on the school board is going to have a tough time pushing back on wage & benefit demands. They likely don't negotiate salaries for a living and their phone is ringing off the hook because everybody in the town is a teacher, related to a teacher, or has a neighbor who is a teacher. The way you fix this is to take away local control of public education. Fund it through state taxes instead of local property taxes. Make teachers be state employees. Today, most states have some mechanism to feed money to cities and towns to at least partially fund public education but they don't have any control over compensation.
      1) Actually the opposite. Anecdotally through my wife, the monsters are more likely to perform better in an environment where good performance is valued (like a class filly with perfect sallys and johnnys and only one ******* like me). This is the same principle as integrating certain children with non-violent learning and personality problems. the kids are NOT stigmatized into thinking they are dum-dums as kids were in our day of public education (LD classes, anyone?), but only leave the classroom for subjects that cause them particular trouble, or recieve additional help from an aide IN the classroom, removing the "isolated" effect of leaving the classroom during reading cause you suck at it.
      As for the little monsters, the problem is that in most cases their parents just don't give a ****- they wouldn't have a chance at a private school cause their 'rents think they suck already, why bother with private school? (My wife enjoys a student whose mother, at the beginning of the year, told her point blank not to waste her time on her son, because he is just a screwup(at 10yo) who will end up in prison anyways- I was in the room cleaning up the board when this occurred). The problem isn't one little monster, its when you have several.

      2) I'm not sure about state control, either. An idea I actually proposed to my wife is that there be a constant rotation of volunteer teachers through the administration who would make choices on policy, curriculum, funding, and firing decisions for proven innefective teachers. I think she'd be all for volunteering even more of her time, but she is almost 100% burnt out, so I don't think we'll be worrying about that any time soon.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      They make my ass look pretty.

    14. 02-21-2011 04:29 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      The private sector isn't going to go into a down and out district and save the kids that need the most help.
      ORLY?

      http://www.microsoft.com/education/s.../overview.aspx

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      02-21-2011 04:32 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.FOH!! View Post
      I will echo what Tornado2dr stated. A teacher may be quite good at what they
      do, but if a parent condones crappy behavior from their kid at home, that behavior
      will continue at school. That will affect test scores, the ability of the teacher to focus
      on better students & the good students ability to benefit from class time.
      There is a lot of merit from that side of the argument. Little sh-t kids making it impossible for other kids to learn, street gangs, and being forced on a curriculum only based solely upon passing the State’s standardized test certainly present valid weaknesses in a teacher’s ability to teach.

      Certainly my snide feelings of “kick the little sh-ts out of class and let them rot” won’t hold up well in any debate, but then neither should basing a teacher’s performance on their classes’ standardized test scores.

      I’d even go so far as to implement incentive programs to those teachers who truly want to make a difference to go work in the inner-city classrooms. Want to show us you truly care? Go where the “market” demands your talents the most. I think there already are some of these programs already in place now.

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      02-21-2011 04:37 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      So what would you think of having the money follow the student?
      I would need to understand the details of the plan. Some large school districts already have something like this -- not sure how the money flows, but the school-choice part at least. Here in Philly we have a lot of alternative charter schools, and I know a kid next door to me just started HS at a school not in the neighborhood. There was some kind of application and lottery system that he had to go through to get the school he wanted.

      Ultimately, the point of public education is to give ALL students a good education, not just a lucky few. So, school choice can be good for testing different ideas to see which give the best results, but ultimately the best practices need to be implemented in all the schools so everyone can benefit from them. Otherwise the kids who lose the lottery get screwed.

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    17. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:38 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by David Mays View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by M-soft
      Microsoft is currently helping schools in 12 locations around the world integrate the best practices learned at the School of the Future and from other Microsoft education initiatives.
      Surely microsoft will be willing to donate their time and money to the rest of the 1000s of schools around our nation. Also note that the school in question's GOAL is to be a model for schools of the future in terms of curriculum, teaching style, and facilities. No one ever said finding a better way TO TEACH was a bad idea.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      They make my ass look pretty.

    18. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:39 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Ultimately, the point of public education is to give ALL students a good education, not just a lucky few. So, school choice can be good for testing different ideas to see which give the best results, but ultimately the best practices need to be implemented in all the schools so everyone can benefit from them. Otherwise the kids who lose the lottery get screwed.

      -Andrew L
      x2
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio!
      They make my ass look pretty.

    19. 02-21-2011 04:45 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      Surely microsoft will be willing to donate their time and money to the rest of the 1000s of schools around our nation.
      Bill & Melinda do:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%2...tion#Education

    20. Member bigtavo's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:46 PM #120
      I'm not sure when this changed into an education discussion but a few words on education reform

      YEAR ROUND SCHOOL. No summer breaks. Holidays, a few 1-2 week recesses and make the school calendar 220-230 days long.

      Tell the argument against it.
      Last edited by bigtavo; 02-21-2011 at 04:48 PM.
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    21. 02-21-2011 04:49 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by bigtavo View Post
      Tell the argument against it.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_...ms_and_support

      I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

    22. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:49 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by SAPJetta View Post
      Scores have stayed about the same while costs have soared. I'm also not a big supporter of the smaller classroom movement. I did just fine in classes with 30+ kids in them.
      That's you though. You aren't everyone.

      When I moved from the Seattle area to a small rural town E. Washington I started to do very good in school. The close relationship with my fellow students and my teacher made school a much more hands on, interactive type of learning... Which I excel in.

      Then I moved back to the Seattle area and entered into an overcrowded school district in an affluent area, that was supposedly one of the best public schools in the state. Which of course was mostly nothing but lectures, and tests, lectures, and tests. From there on, I struggled all the way through high school.

      Now I am out of school and back to applying my knowledge and learning in a real world setting. And once again... Excelling.

      I look back at that time, and see it as nothing more than a broken program that held me back for 6 years, and more or less, a waste of my time.
      Last edited by SOAR; 02-21-2011 at 04:54 PM.

    23. 02-21-2011 04:50 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by bigtavo View Post
      I'm not sure when this changed into an education discussion but a few words on education reform

      YEAR ROUND SCHOOL. No summer breaks. Holidays, a few 1-2 week recesses and make the school calendar 220-230 days long.

      Tell the argument against it.
      How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

      (Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for under performing school districts)

    24. Banned zukiphile's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:54 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.
      So, maybe the union issue and the prevailing wage mentality does need to be fixed.

    25. Member bigtavo's Avatar
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      02-21-2011 04:59 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by joness0154 View Post
      How about cost? That's a big one right there. You have to pay the hourly workers more, heat/cool the building and i'm sure the teachers would be screaming for more money too.

      (Don't get me wrong, I'd actually be in favor of year round school for under performing school districts)
      The current "school calendar" was developed when people farmed. You need the kids for cheap labor in the summer.

      We pay teachers full time wages already. There are plenty of people that think a job that pays 40-100 grand a year with 6 weeks vacation wouldn't be a bad gig. The other costs would not be significantly different than what they are now.

      A lot of dual income families would welcome the savings in summer time child care as well.
      Last edited by bigtavo; 02-21-2011 at 05:01 PM.
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