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    Thread: CIS-E G Lader

    1. Member
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      03-03-2011 01:34 PM #1
      Hello all,
      I am almost done with a G-Lader upgrade to a stock C/R MK2 GTI.
      I am surveying opinion and soliciting information from those experienced in ever doing this conversion (boosted CIS-E).
      I have done research, read Probst's books, Bentley and countless posts.
      I am just doing a general sanity check before turning the key for the first time.
      To date, I have a used but good condition G60 installed into a stock 86 GTI.
      The CIS-E is being refreshed with good clean injectors and verified flow and spray patterns.
      I am anticipating running this on the stock CIS-E (K-Jetronic) system with FPR that has the potentiometer, Frequency Valve, and a good O2 sensor feed,
      This will run with an OEM pully and low boost.
      I have the Corrado Intake, T/B, I/C and plumbing in factory form and all factory pullies and tensioners installed on the MK2 block.
      Bosal Header, and clearanced engine mounting provisions.
      If there is anyone that has done this and knows what to look out for I would like inputs; particularily in the area of vacuum line hybridization
      I don't plan DigiFant, M/S, or any other updating unless that is my only end option, in which case, this would have been a lot of work for the same sort of traditional update build.
      Thanks



      Last edited by nbvwfan; 04-26-2011 at 01:47 PM.

    2. 03-03-2011 02:00 PM #2
      I don't know what to do here.
      Quote Originally Posted by Pineapplegti ! View Post
      Brand enthusiasts are idiots.
      Klutch Republik - Live Fast , Drive Hard
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    3. Member
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      03-03-2011 02:01 PM #3
      I am surveying opinion and soliciting information from those experienced in ever doing this conversion (boosted CIS-E).

    4. 03-03-2011 02:41 PM #4
      Have you tried the FI & Carb / SEM forum?

      Those with knowledge of such topics might be hanging around there more.
      Quote Originally Posted by Pineapplegti ! View Post
      Brand enthusiasts are idiots.
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    5. Member CodeMan's Avatar
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      03-03-2011 02:44 PM #5
      I've only seen one running CIS-E turbo car on the vortex, and it was a Fox. The owner wired a hobbs switch to the full throttle switch wiring and cranked up the hidden DPR screw (not the mixture screw) to provide extra fuel under boost.
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      I think Scirocco owners are just a little dense in the head...
      I, uhh... well, ok.

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      03-03-2011 03:15 PM #6
      I found and read up on his build posts.
      The package was pretty impressive with the 8 line Mercedes FPR and Hobbs switch.
      There was also an Aussie that did a Turbo rabbit and made a similar setup, but his was CIS Basic and employed a 240 FPR and WUR.
      I think what you pointed out (the DPR) is the key to proper upper/lower chamber F/R magic.
      I have hopes that with Lambda ECU control and the 02 sensor secondarily controlling the DPR it will yeild a valid modulation range, but in higher boost application the Hobbs and fuel enrichment might be needed.

      Another thing I am curious about is the theory behind the CIS sensor plate. Can it measure volume and mass? In Digifant, the AFM cannot and needs a crude CO and pressure sensor, but in theory with CIS sensor plate lift I am assuming KE=1/2 MV^2 and it will measure density (mass) of the incoming air as well as volume (charger after air box draw through).
      That being said, this is why I want to prove my build guess by trying CIS-E stock under low boost.
      Thank you CodeMan for not hating and providing me honest insight, I get wary of asking people to chime in with feedback as there are a lot of talkers and few true tinkerers.
      Regards
      Last edited by nbvwfan; 03-03-2011 at 03:17 PM.

    7. 03-03-2011 03:15 PM #7
      I've always had the impression that in order to properly boost cis, it required a warm up regulator that was capable providing more fuel under boost. For instance, a WUR from a turbo Volvo or an Audi.

      Link for ref

      http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1384099

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      03-03-2011 03:37 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Gin View Post
      I've always had the impression that in order to properly boost cis, it required a warm up regulator that was capable providing more fuel under boost. For instance, a WUR from a turbo Volvo or an Audi.

      Link for ref

      http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1384099
      I believe you are correct and this is well documented, but with the advent of Lambda, the previous active component of Boost closing (lowering) return pressure via the WUR was transitioned by the DPR controller upper/lower chamber pressure deltas allowing more fuel flow to the injectors by increasing sensor plate lift and slit clearance, granted this was on N/A cars, but in theory vaccuum to atmosphere is boost with the 0 scale shifted.
      Last edited by nbvwfan; 03-03-2011 at 03:42 PM.

    9. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      03-03-2011 03:42 PM #9
      My friend built a Callaway kit onto his CIS Caddy. Really interesting setup, I've messed with it myself. it's a lot of work, you should definitely read up on EVERYTHING yo can find about hos CIS works and how to boost it. A CIS-E G60 would be very very cool!
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      03-03-2011 03:53 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by VDub2625 View Post
      My friend built a Callaway kit onto his CIS Caddy. Really interesting setup, I've messed with it myself. it's a lot of work, you should definitely read up on EVERYTHING yo can find about hos CIS works and how to boost it. A CIS-E G60 would be very very cool!
      Yes, I saw the callaway turbonium bunny, ~450WHP.
      They did Basic withthe WUR setup.
      As an aside I have a WUR from my 84GTI mounted to my 86 GTI block as a tinkering fallback if I see red on my A/F Gauge meter. to hybrid in a WUR with CIS-E might pose a challenge, but then I could try an FMU or custom fab a manifold for the Digifant Fuel Pressure rail regulator, but its base PSI might not handle the PSI of the CIS-E setup.
      I have to think that the DPR was designed with some degree of foresight by VW-Bosch and iterative design intent, I know from bolting this thing together, the mechanicals were.

      Thanks for the positive reply

      Last edited by nbvwfan; 03-03-2011 at 04:03 PM.

    11. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      03-03-2011 04:04 PM #11
      Oh no, my friend just has a full OEM Callaway setup, nothing monserous. He got the original installation manual with it too, turbo CIS is suprisingly easy. he did find that it leaned out under boost though, he had to add a Callaway microfeueller (not required with the basic setup according the the manual). He runs CIS basic though, not sure how it'd operate under CIS-E.

      A hybrid WUR with CIS-E... hmm. Callaway made a Turbo setup for CIS-E Mk2 GTIs also, if you could find some info on those it might help.

      (I'm sure there are other resources for CIS-E FIs, but I really like the idea of going back in the day, when VW were still building and designing these systems, that Calalway had some insight into that that we might not have now)
      Last edited by VDub2625; 03-03-2011 at 04:08 PM.
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      03-03-2011 04:18 PM #12
      That is why I have such a preferrence for the mechanical fuel injection systems.
      If I can get this GTI CIS-E G60 right, I have ammassed the parts for a G60 16V MK1 GTI, Then maybe an Eaton M60 CIS QSW.
      Would love to do something with my 2.1 WBX in the boost realm too.

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      03-04-2011 09:15 AM #13
      Just in case anyone was interested, this is my first posting of pics of the project.
      The progress has been pretty slow as many discoveries are being made with each new issue resolved.
      The engine is MK2 and the corrado S/C mount bolts right up.
      I had to get pullys from the Corrado, shim the W/P pully and press and remount the Corrado P/S pully offset. Variants from MK3's work would work as well.
      This is a non p/s GTI that will have the p/s pump looped to allow the W/P to be driven.
      I fabbed an I/C mount to put it where it would be on the corrado, I had to notch the front crossmember to clearance the A/C pully, trial and error, then a Cabby R/H mount installed upside down in the front carriage and I gained the clearance I needed. I know now that there were other ways to do the same thing, but it was fun to figure it out. See links, and let me know what you think

      https://picasaweb.google.com/117793989155600108233/GolfGTIG60
      Project?authkey=Gv1sRgCL3thNjMwJbhrgE#






      Last edited by nbvwfan; 03-04-2011 at 10:46 AM.

    14. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      03-04-2011 02:45 PM #14
      You might be better off starting with G60 block and a CIS head on it (compression, oil squirters etc). Also, you should be able to run the water pump off the serp belt with a VR6 water pump pulley on it I think?
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      03-06-2011 04:08 PM #15
      I would have just bought a long block and done the engine swap Digi and all and then tied in the electrical.
      I thought originally the electrics would pose more of a problem so I went with mechnical bolt ons of the G-Lader mount over the stock W/P, swapped the pullies for an Alt, A/C, and P/S corrado serpentine setup and it pretty much bolted on the rest.
      I know I am potentially asking for long term issues using the 10:1 C/R and non oil squirter setup, but a lot of what I read indicated the Corrado bottem end was similar with the differences in C/R mainly being from dished pistons.
      I am too far down the path to consider PG shortblocking or stacking the headgasket so I will cross my fingers, run cold plugs, lower thermostat, high octane, watch the A/F ratio, and keep it OEM on the boost side with stock pully and OEM T/B.
      The design in theory should work, proving it will be another story, but I think its possible.
      Thanks

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      04-19-2011 10:31 AM #16
      Fired it up last night.
      It runs, though I need to go over vaccuum lines fittings ect.

    17. Member CodeMan's Avatar
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      04-19-2011 10:41 AM #17
      Nice, man. Have you driven it yet? Post up some video.
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      I think Scirocco owners are just a little dense in the head...
      I, uhh... well, ok.

    18. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      04-19-2011 11:31 AM #18
      The biggest obstacle in running cis of any form is the lack of ability to control the spark. They have ignition maps however they are set in stone except for turning the distributor, which only moves the whole curve a few degrees.

      If you want it to run well for a long time you will need 2 things for certain, Boost related timing retard and a really efficient intercooler. I would probably also include water/meth injection. The intake temps you will see will be insane and without control of the timing and fuel precisely to lower the temps, you are just asking for a melt down. The glader charger is very inefficient and runs a lot of heat, if you can keep control of the temps you will be fine. I would def suggest a EGT probe to keep and eye on things and to keep things from melting

    19. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      04-19-2011 03:21 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by -RalleyTuned- View Post
      The biggest obstacle in running cis of any form is the lack of ability to control the spark. They have ignition maps however they are set in stone except for turning the distributor, which only moves the whole curve a few degrees.

      If you want it to run well for a long time you will need 2 things for certain, Boost related timing retard and a really efficient intercooler. I would probably also include water/meth injection. The intake temps you will see will be insane and without control of the timing and fuel precisely to lower the temps, you are just asking for a melt down. The glader charger is very inefficient and runs a lot of heat, if you can keep control of the temps you will be fine. I would def suggest a EGT probe to keep and eye on things and to keep things from melting
      The knock sensor system on some CIS-E cars adjusts for advanced timing at WOT etc, and under load. A brain from a Turbo Audi should help with boost too.
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    20. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      04-19-2011 05:00 PM #20
      it can help but it will not retard nearly fast enough to avoid knock or detonation. It is a assist for a well tuned ignition, not a substitute.

      also besides detonation we are also talking about heat. Having a setup that will only retard if there is knock detected will have no effect on the combustion temps. This is going to be his main issue with the type of boost being used

    21. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      04-19-2011 05:54 PM #21
      How did the OEM CIS-E turbos manage to not melt down?
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    22. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      04-19-2011 09:22 PM #22
      If it is oem then that means the ignition was tuned for boost...not the same as using a system designed for na. I am curious what oem cis-e vw's you are referring too though? The op never mentioned switching brains that I noticed, maybe I am not aware of the direct replacement g lader tuned cis-e box

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      04-19-2011 09:27 PM #23
      Audi Turbo? Boost sensitive fuel and ignition tuning. Good systems to swap in. Callaway manged to make turbo CIS-basic cars too, without switching out all those parts (my friend has one) though I'm less familiar with their operations. i know they added a microfueller and messed with the vacuum advance on the distributor.
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    24. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      04-19-2011 09:36 PM #24
      Yes, a system tuned for running turbo...now you are talking about swapping the whole system? If he uses the system he is planning, the issues I listed will still be there. If he is swapping fuel systems that is different but even if he used a system setup for boost it will still not work that well since the ignition is setup for a 5cyl turbo, not a 4 cylinders supercharged one...using the one example you gave.

      I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, the problems will exist with his existing plan. Are you just trying to prove to me that it can work or something?

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      04-19-2011 09:39 PM #25
      I believe that's what i suggested, yes. Not the whole system but the parts that are different. Being CIS, the only way to adjust the mechanical fuel curve is to swap the distributor plate, but since they didn't make 4 cylinder turbos then I'd recommend against that... the Audi electronics would likely help though. Turbo, s/c, it's all mechanical so it should respond to boost in much the same way. IIRC the knock box system with the ignition curves should work the same whether 4 or 5 cyl. I know Callaway people use the boost-capable fuel pressure regulator from Audi and Porsche on their VWs.

      I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. CIS FI is obviously not a great idea nowadays with OEM EFI and even programmable EFI so easy and cheap. But that's not the point of the build... the point of the build is getting CIS to work. it may not make peak power but it'd be certianly interesting.

      I should go ahead with my ideas for a CIS VR6 and blow your mind away. lol.
      Last edited by VDub2625; 04-19-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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    26. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      04-19-2011 09:50 PM #26
      Not at all, actually if you read my post I was simply letting the OP know what issues will come up with his setup. I simply suggested adding a few things to his system to allow it to function without issue boost sensitive timing will be a must, and having some things too cool the intake charge will go a long way to prevent melt down. also keep in mind i never said that OEM boost tuned and setup cis system DO melt down...when we did our callaway turbo setup with cis basic we used a split second injector controller for extra fuel and an MSD Boost sensitive ignition retard box. It worked but it would have been way faster with a better tuned setup.

      Cis vr6 would be far from mind blowing, but hey if that's what you gotta do to think you proved a point go for it. I have done cis turbos and they are bleh. Old school cool for sure, but nothing near what I would consider mind blowing

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      04-19-2011 09:53 PM #27
      I guess that's our difference- I like the cool engineering going into making something that shouldn't be, and some people are just about the power and speed. That's not me
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    28. Member -RalleyTuned-'s Avatar
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      04-19-2011 09:56 PM #28
      to each their own my friend please keep in mind I was only suggesting things that would make his setup work better, not saying its not going to work

      I am building 2 cis-e cars right now, so don't think that I don't know how to make cis do things either

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      04-19-2011 10:07 PM #29
      I think there was confusion on both our parts- I know you were offering suggestions, and so was I, in addition to yours. I thought that maybe an Audi ignition system with a boost-enhanced curve, coupled with a not-quite-as-advanced-as-it-could-be basic timing setup would be a good idea (Callaway recommended 0* on the CIS turbos for example). Again, might not make peak power but it'd make the setup reliable and in my eyes cool as hell. I don't have a lot of experience with boost beyond my friend's Callaway CIS 8v, so i am kinda going out on a limb here but it seems to make sense to me that parts designed for a turbo should still work with a s/c, at least the fuel and ignition setups.

      I just really enjoy how CIS is so interchangeable... need a different ignition curve, or boost-sensitive fuel parts? just swap a different part in place. It's all mechanical which is awesome. I do love electronics and know that a good EFI setup can make loads more power much more simply, but the cool factor is strong with me
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      04-19-2011 10:16 PM #30
      Its def a common misconception that all boost acts the same way. After tuning several different boost setups on similar motors, it is very clear to me that the way the compressor makes the boost (be it turbo or s/c) is different and it requires different timing in order for things to be happy all the time. The biggest thing with the s/c route is the heat, and i have seen timing values 20deg less advanced than the turbo counterpart on the same engine, and this is solely due to the intake temps that come with a s/c setup.

      Just food for thought for the op Fueling is the easy part, but everyone should know that all the power and drive-ability is in the ignition tune. This is why i recommended the MSD boost timing retard computer, It wont be perfect but it will give a blanket retard per lb of boost which you can carefully tweak to dial in the setup as best as possible to avoid melted pistons

      I have not problem with people trying to do things with CIS and what they have to work with, just trying to help based of the things I have worked on before

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      04-21-2011 01:30 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by CodeMan View Post
      Nice, man. Have you driven it yet? Post up some video.
      Only in my minds eye.
      Its on wheel dollies and the axles are yet to be re-installed.
      I need to graft another radiator into the platform as the OEM does not fit. So far I have looked for an 84 Chevette, Peugeot 505 STI, and looking now for an 87 Dodge Omni.
      Hopefully I will obtain one soon. For now its loosely fitted with a MK1 GTI radiator which fits but does not allow for the condenser and A/C lines to route right.
      I read below and agree with the comments on Ignition, BUT, I am running the stock Knock Box and Hall unit so my hopes are the timing maps and negative vacuum will electronically retard timing (to a degree).
      I have read up on CIS Basic and the vacuum advance Distributors being able to shift timing, but don't think I want to go that route as I have the CIS-E stock components.
      One thing to note is that I am running the stock Corrado T/B which has a very practical boost return setup.
      I.E. the car is basically N/A until I go past 75% throttle, in which timing and fuel is adjusted to WOT settings.
      With that and the stock CIS FPR and DPR and a live Lambda loop, I think I will be ok.
      Key-word, "think"
      Re: pics/video, can anyone tell me how I can post videos/pics, I am not allowed on the vortex and I don't know what site to upload pics to.
      If you PM me and give me your POC details I can send you some build shots, there are a few unique ways I made the FPR and Cold Start work in my grafting.
      Maybe a help, maybe a laugh, maybe enough to give insight to the why I think this can be done.
      Thanks

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      04-21-2011 01:52 PM #32
      You said..
      we used a split second injector controller for extra fuel and an MSD Boost sensitive ignition retard box

      First, I do plan on (if A/F indicates) adding another CIS or Cold Start Injector to the front of the manifold Like I saw in the "legend" Rabbit Turbo build.
      Second, I have considered adding an MSD Boost retard, (the "legend" added this too), cost has prohibited this at the present.

      I know, this can go on and on to the philosophy of build theory, and this is fun to dialogue, but I am trying to determine the limits of OEM CIS-E.
      I’m sorry, I am an engineer, don't take offense at that statement. I like to know how things work, and this build has been one of an undertaking to understand "what VW could have done" and why they switched to Digi.
      Though I have my ideas, I do like CIS, and its mechanical components making up what did not electrically exist in its day.
      That to me is cool, the CIS FPR design is a work of art, so is the hated G-Lader, both I wanted to pair and see what "could be".
      I am glad this discussion was generated. Its giving me some things to seriously consider.
      I know I could update, but I am not after 250WHP, (next build), I just want to validate something different and drive something fun, unlike my slugbox vanagon, but along the same nostalgic flavor.

    33. Member CodeMan's Avatar
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      04-21-2011 03:31 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by nbvwfan View Post
      Re: pics/video, can anyone tell me how I can post videos/pics, I am not allowed on the vortex and I don't know what site to upload pics to.
      Make an account at imageshack or photobucket, etc. and upload your pics there. Then copy the [img] link and paste it into you posts.
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      I think Scirocco owners are just a little dense in the head...
      I, uhh... well, ok.

    34. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 15th, 2007
      Location
      Virginia
      Posts
      2,211
      Vehicles
      G60 on CIS-E and a bunch of other VW's
      04-26-2011 01:50 PM #34
      Mocked up




      OEM Intercooler mount



      Fender work to clearance the I/C



      MK1 Side engine mount installed in the MK2 Front and 90 degree rotated to lift the front ~.5"



      Notched front lower crossmember for clearance



      To allow G60 A/C compressor Pully clearance (not seen anyone do an G60 Mk2 with a/c conversion)



      Drive Pullies hit too frame rail , so I rolled the flange



      Open and decked ~3" off the airbox and put it over the carbon cannister opening, flipped the box to orient the FPR mount



      Added Cold Start injector into Corrado Intake manifold



      Troubleshooting the Fuel Pump Relay, stumped me for two days, Ended up being the Braided ground feed that attaches to the valve cover



      Plumbing Intake line with odds n ends and an MK1 cobra head, it will be re-done later



      Current state, need an Omni, Chevette, or Peugeot 205, 505 radiator, the MK1 GTI shown is not going to work with stock A/C


      More to follow.
      Last edited by nbvwfan; 04-26-2011 at 04:52 PM.

    35. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 15th, 2007
      Location
      Virginia
      Posts
      2,211
      Vehicles
      G60 on CIS-E and a bunch of other VW's
      05-25-2011 01:36 PM #35
      Still looking for my corrado radiator..
      Some AM pics







      Last edited by nbvwfan; 05-25-2011 at 01:41 PM.

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