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    Thread: 09A GNZ transmission problem

    1. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      05-09-2012 05:01 PM #51
      Since I normally recommend folks to NOT rebuild their own trans I normally dont post much to threads asking questions about internal rebuilding.

      But I did notice you said, " have codes for all solenoids". This would normally mean the common wire or fuse that powers all the solenoids is broken (or unplugged?).

      I love threads like these.
      Last edited by CoolAirVw; 07-13-2012 at 02:07 PM.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
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      05-12-2012 10:37 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      But I did notice you said, " have codes for all solenoids". This would normally mean the common wire or fuse that powers all the solenoids is broken (or unplugged?).
      Good point! And it falls in exactly with the OP saying (well, OK implying) he got different readings of solenoid resistance when checking via grounds on the harness versis via grounds on the valve body.

      Jose, if you get different readings with different grounds, then you have a grouding problem.

      And when checking the individual, lose, solenoid resistances, always go between the positive terminal and the grounding wire if present. If the wire is not there the solenoid body is used as the ground. The wire is used on a few solenoids that are rubber mounted, since the rubber insulate the body from ground.

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      05-13-2012 11:39 AM #53
      Update:
      I checked for continuity between TCM end of harness and connector where the solenoid harness plugs into and found no interruptions, I checked the solenoid harness for continuity and found no interruptions, I disconnected all 9 solenoids and left the ground terminal of the harness hooked to the VB and checked at the TCM end of the harness for short circuit to ground between ground and each one of the solenoid pins and everything is OK. I plugged all solenoids, poured ATF, scanned TCM, turned engine on and run selector through all gears but still no pressure at low clutch. Car behaves as if TCM was in limp but I scanned TCM again for codes but found nothing.
      One odd thing I found is that with ignition on but engine off, Incan hear clicking noise inside the VB case if solenoids where randomly opening and closing really fast, this stops after a minute or so, when I heard this I scanned again the TCM but found no codes.

      I checked all fuses and found only the lighter fuse to be blown, I replaced it but made no difference as expected, the only difference is that the lighter now works hehehe.

      Also, before I installed the oil pan, with the solenoids plugged, I connected the battery and with ignition on I scanned the TCM and found no errors but when I was installing the oil pan I noticed the solenoids where hot, is this normal? Or this is an indicative that there actually IS a short to ground somewhere?

      I am cluless now, after I hooked the manual valve of the VB and aligned the piston of the multi disc brake B2 transmission worked fine, the only issue was that it was showing higher pressure than it should be when at idle. This is when I removed the VB to check for correct assembly and after installing it back the problem with no pressure at low clutch started.
      I will double check for short circuits and see what I find.

      Any input will be very much appreciated.

      Thank you,
      Jose

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      05-13-2012 04:47 PM #54
      Update:

      I checked the solenoid's resistance from TCM harness again but now instead of having the new N93 I used the old N93 and now all readings are within the expected values when measuring from harness ground and from VB ground terminal. So far the electronics appear to be OK, and TCM seems to agree with that since there are no errors stored in it, and ECM is showing only the O2 sensors failure.

      There's a fuse that is stained with some sort of oxyde, like if it was corroded, but it's for the fans. On the left side of the radiator, the wires are covered with dry coolant (white and purple kind of crust) it is an old leak that I have already fixed, I will dissasemble that section to see if I find anything.

      I checked all leads at TCM connector and all three have 12V, (I already had looked at all the fuses but just wanted to make sure). Nothing seems to be out of place at wiring.

      I'm going to remove for the Nth time the VB to check assembly again, not valve assembly but position on the case and maybe I will replace the solenoid harness since all plastic tabs are broken.

      Any input and help on this issue will be very much appreciated.

      Jose Luis

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      05-19-2012 12:59 PM #55
      Update:

      I checked for shorts to ground on the harnesses but found nothing. The only thing I found was a ground point with the nut loose and it was a little corroded, I think because of the bad connection it had. This was below the battery tray, I disconnected the 3 ground points that are there and cleaned them, tighten them but no changes on transmission behavior. Still no error codes so transmissionnis not in limp mode, but solenoids keep clicking for a few seconds after I have turned off the engine but kept the ignition switch on.
      Since all these issues started when removing and putting back the VB I'm going to concentrate on that spot, everything else is OK, no shorts, no blown fuses, TCM gets voltage, no weird readings of solenoid resistance when taken from different ground points. I'm going to change the solenoid harness, I know is ok, it doesn't loose continuity when you move the wires and wires don't present more resistance to make the TCM look at a different value of solenoid resistance, but all tabs are broken.
      I will continue with my search and post what I find.

      Any help will be very much appreciated.

      Jose

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      06-10-2012 11:11 PM #56
      Update:

      I'm still having the no pressure at low clutch port issue. The last thing I did is that I removed the valve body and check all valves again for correct assembly and they are correctly assembled. I checked the condition of the 2 round gaskets behind the VB on the transmission case and they are OK. I assemble the VB back using new lower and upper gaskets and I replaced the solenoid harness. Still no changes on transmission behavior. No codes stored in TCM or ECU but transmission still behaves as it was in limp mode. I performed the TCM reset but no changes.
      Since transmission was functioning OK I assume is not an internal issue.
      So now I'm assuming the TCM is no longer good, so in order to test this I used a really high tech device (see pictures below) which I plugged to the back of the TCM harness at the N88, N92 and N89 solenoid wires to see if it was sending voltage to the these solenoids.
      These three solenoids are supposed to be activated when in 1st in auto mode.
      With engine on, all sensors and modules connected, no error codes on TCM or ECU, gear selector in "D" and high tech device plugged to the back of the TCM, I got these readings:

      N88 --> No resistance shown as if it was not connected but voltage was at 13V. With engine OFF
      resistance is 18ohms.
      N89 --> No resistance shown as if it was not connected but voltage was at 13V. With engine OFF
      resistance is 18ohms.
      N92 --> No voltage shown and 18ohms of resistance with engine ON and OFF

      I should see voltage on these three wires, shouldn't I?

      High Tech Device:


      Closer look to high tech device connection


      Any input will be very much appreciated.
      Jose Walters

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      07-11-2012 11:19 PM #57
      Hello all,
      Update: I took the TCM to a TCM repair shop and they said it was not working, they quoted too high to repair it so I bought a used one. Installed it and clear all codes in all controllers. But made no change, I'm still having the "no pressure at low clutch and highest pressure in reverse clutch"
      I moved the gear selector through all gears and check for codes again but found nothing. I'm still hearing the solenoids randomly clicking with the engine off but ignition on, does this means there's a short somewhere? if it does why are all fuses OK and no codes are showing?

      I can discard an internal problem because transmission was working OK, this started when I removed the VB to check for slight high presure and then assembled it back. I have checked the VB more than twice after this issue and everything is in its place.

      I really need some help with this. I have checked the TCM harness for short circuit but everything is OK, I think I will check all wire of the car in search of a short circuit.

      Any help with this will be very much appreciated.

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      07-18-2012 01:36 AM #58
      Update:
      I checked the entire TCM harness and I didn´t find shortages....there are no shorts between wires of the TCM and there are no shorts between ground and wire leads of the TCM, readings at the TCM connector for all solenoids and sensors are correct.
      I found the brake light switch in bad condition, it is a 4 pin switch but it´s stuck closed, it does´t matter if brake pedal is depressed or not, there is always continuity between terminals. This failure didn´t show up in the TCM, ECM or ABS modules, I changed the switch for a new one but transmission is still showing no pressure at low clutch.
      I cleaned two ground points located in the plenum chamber but still no difference. I can still hear the solenoids opening and closing randomly with ignition on but engine off but now is slower.

      One of the inputs for the TCM is sensor F189, which is the tiptronic switch, does anyone knows how to test if this is in good condition?....I can read a bit more than 500ohms between terminal 3 of multifuntion switch and ground but I see it is because is connected to F189 which it has resistors between ground and lead which makes this 500ohms but I really could´t tell if it´s correct.

      Thanks in advance for any input you may provide.

    9. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      07-18-2012 08:39 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by carfreak01 View Post
      One of the inputs for the TCM is sensor F189, which is the tiptronic switch, does anyone knows how to test if this is in good condition?....
      You plug in vag-com and go to measuring blocks and look at the measuring block associated with the tip switch. You can see the switch change state as you move it to the tip position then you can see the individual switches change state as you move it to "+" or "-".

      This cannot cause your problem though.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
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      07-18-2012 11:27 AM #60
      Thank you for your reply.

      I was also thinking that F189 couldn't cause this "no pressure at low clutch" issue. I'm just curious to find out if that 500+ ohms reading between terminal 3 of F125 and ground is correct, this because if I unplug F189, there is no connection between ground and terminal 3 of F125, I know there are resistors in the circuit board of F189 and that can be causing the reading of 500+ ohms, since I don't have the schematics for that sensor I just want to make sure it is correct, brake light switch was not good but there were no DTCs stored for that, just making sure F189 is OK too.
      I'm just making sure that everything that can make the TCM malfunction is in good condition.

      Thank you,
      José Luis

    11. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      07-18-2012 01:57 PM #61
      Have you considered that maybe your in the wrong tap when your testing for your pressure?

      Or have you tried air checking the servo to see if the band will apply? (sorry I didn't re-read through the whole thread to see if you've done this)

      One solenoid can stick and cause no reverse. I assume also, I think I remember reading, that you've replaced the solenoids. But maybe the valve that the solenoid acts on is stuck.
      Last edited by CoolAirVw; 07-18-2012 at 02:00 PM.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
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      07-18-2012 02:20 PM #62
      I have considered the wrong tap, but I made sure it was on the correct tap.

      Transmission was working fine just with a slight high pressure, so I removed the VB to see if everything was correct, then installed it back and the "no pressure at low clutch" issue started.

      Band does apply since reverse can be engaged and highest pressure is applied, and also if I increase RPMs when in D car will move forward but only at high RPMs, it behaves as it was in limp mode but TCM is not showing any errors and "PRND432" display is not showing differently (as when in limp mode) but if I on purpose disconnect something to make it go into limp mode, then TCM will show DTCs and "PRND432" display will light up differently.
      This is why I assume there is nothing wrong internally with the transmission, I believe is electronic related.
      I attached a wire to the back of the TCM connector to see if N88, N89 and N92 were being activated by the TCM and one of them was not, I took the TCM to a repair shop and they told me TCM was not working but quoted too high to repair it, I bought a used one but there's no change. The only change I notice is that with the old TCM (original) solenoids stopped clicking randomly when ignition was on and engine off, now with the "new" TCM random clicking is back again but after I cleaned two ground points and change the brake light switch these clickings are less and slower.
      I don't want to ruin the TCM again.

      Thank you for your help
      Jose Luis

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      07-18-2012 02:29 PM #63
      I forgot to tell you that yes, I did change the solenoids.
      I change them all, but TCM detected a short circuit and new N93 was giving me a reading that old N93 wasn't, reading between lead and "O" terminal of the solenoid was OK on both solenoids, but when reading between lead and solenoid body new N93 was showing continuity but old N93 wasn't, I assumed that new N93 was no good and I reinstalled old N93....at the end I have 8 new solenoids and 1 old (N93).

      Maybe old N93 is stuck and this is why I'm not seeing pressure at low clutch and it is why I don't see DTCs stored in TCM?
      But then why N92 is not being activated by the TCM when D is selected?

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      07-21-2012 09:41 PM #64
      Can anyone tell if 500+ ohms between terminal 3 of Multi-function switch wire harness terminal of 09A 5sp transmission and ground is correct? This is with the ingnition off. When I turn the ignition on (engine off) resistance between those two terminals drops to 57 ohms. I know there are many resistors that may be somehow connected, but I just don't know if that reading is correct. I cannot find anything on the manual that tells me if that is a reading I should be expecting.

      I just finished checking all relays, fuses, ground points and I haven't find anything wrong.

      Thank you all for any help you may provide.

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      07-28-2012 05:57 PM #65
      Hello all,

      I'm still having the "no pressure at low clutch port" issue. This issue started when I removed the valve body to see if I had left something wrong due to a slight high pressure and installed it back. Before this movement, transmission was working OK, all 5 gears kicked in when I test drove it after the rebuilt I performed to it, and after three corrections on assembly, reverse became available too.
      The weird issues I found after the "no pressure at low clutch" started were:
      -Solenoid N93 giving a reading between lead and solenoid body. I changed it for the old one.
      -Brake light switch was always closed on both internal switches.
      -Ground points dirty and one of them a little loose.

      I corrected all these issues.

      With TCM connected and engine running and no DTCs stored in TCM and ECM, I meassured N88, N89 and N92 which are the responsables for gear shifting and one of them was not recieving voltage. I took TCM to a repair shop and they said it needed repair, I bought a used one, installed it back, deleted al errors shown but still no changes in transmission behavior.
      Today, with the recently bought TCM, I meassured again N88, N89 and N92 and they are receiving 13+ volts, I also checked N93 and it is receiving voltage, when in D, voltage is at 1+ volts and when in P with engine off, voltage is at 4+ volts, since is a modulation valve, I assume is correct.

      So no DTCs, no limp mode activated (per TCM and "PRND432" display), resistance for solenoids, speed sensors and temperature sensor are all within their specified value (measured at T68a TCM connector), no shortages in all wire harnesses (engine bay, transmission, instrument panel) all fuses OK, all relays working properly and pressure gauge connected to the correct tab and still I cannot see pressure at low clutch.
      I performed the electrical testing shown in the manual and all checked out OK.

      I haven't performed basic settings to the recently bought TCM (used), could this make the transmission behave as it was in limp mode even when electronically is not?

      I checked for voltage at F125 connector between terminal 3 and 6 and it is receiving 12+ volts, so my theory of having something wrong there went down the drain.

      By the way, pressure gauge is working, I plugged it to the reverse clutch tab and it showed high pressure, very high as when in limp mode.

      Any help on this will be very much appreciated

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      07-28-2012 06:19 PM #66
      I just noticed something.....I unplugged the transmission harness (T20b) to make it go into limp mode and turned the engine on, I moved selector to R and car moved backwards, then I moved selector to D and car moved forwards but pressure gauge connected at low clutch tab didn't move, maybe because when in limp mode, 1st, 2nd and 3rd aren't available.

      With transmission connected (not in limp mode) R is available and when in D car moves forward only at high RPMs, but with transmission unplugged (in limp mode) R is available and when in D car moves forward without having to accelerate. In both scenarios, pressure gauge at low clutch tab does not show pressure at all.
      Transmission behaves as it is supposed to when in limp mode, but when not in limp mode, transmission acts as it was in limp mode but when in D car will not move.

      When in limp mode, does ATF pressure by-passes N93 to apply to R and high clutch? if it does, then maybe my issue is that the old N93 is stuck, but if it doesn't then my issue is different.

      thank you for any input you may provide.

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      07-31-2012 01:54 AM #67
      So in order to see if N93 was stuck or not I unplugged the TCM and fed 12 volts between terminal 1 (GND) and terminal 66 (N93) and I could hear the solenoid click, so pressure control solenoid (N93) is in the specified value of resistance and it opens and closes, so that is not the culprit I believe.

      I kept doing this for all nine solenoids and found out that some of them were not clicking when I fed 12 volts to them. I still have the old solenoids so I did the same with the old solenoids and obtained the exact same results.

      N283 click
      N282 No click
      N281 No click
      N93 Click
      N92 No Click
      N91 Click
      N90 No Click
      N89 No Click
      N88 No Click

      I dissasembled one solenoid that clicked and found there's a spring in it, and one of the solenoids that didn't click and didn't find anything that can make it click, so is it correct that 6 out of 9 solenoids didn't click?
      I still think that my problem is electronic related, but I cannot find out what's wrong.

      Any help you may provide will be very much appreciated.

    18. Member CoolAirVw's Avatar
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      07-31-2012 09:13 AM #68
      If the pintle is in one position and you energize it, then it will click to the other position. If the solenoid is allready in the "clicked" position, then you wont hear a click. You almost cant do this check without pushing the pintle back mechanically or with hydraulic pressure or air pressure or something.

      Have you verified you put the wires on the correct solenoids?
      Last edited by CoolAirVw; 07-31-2012 at 09:26 AM.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
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      07-31-2012 09:35 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by carfreak01 View Post
      I just noticed something.....I unplugged the transmission harness (T20b) to make it go into limp mode and turned the engine on, I moved selector to R and car moved backwards, then I moved selector to D and car moved forwards but pressure gauge connected at low clutch tab didn't move, maybe because when in limp mode, 1st, 2nd and 3rd aren't available.

      Is this just a comment? Of course if your in failsafe your not gonna have pressure at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. IIRC trans takes off in 4th on this trans when in failsafe.


      Quote Originally Posted by carfreak01 View Post
      With transmission connected (not in limp mode) R is available and when in D car moves forward only at high RPMs, but with transmission unplugged (in limp mode) R is available and when in D car moves forward without having to accelerate. In both scenarios, pressure gauge at low clutch tab does not show pressure at all. Transmission behaves as it is supposed to when in limp mode, but when not in limp mode, transmission acts as it was in limp mode but when in D car will not move.
      This paragraph makes no sense to me. I thought your problem was no reverse?

      Quote Originally Posted by carfreak01 View Post
      When in limp mode, does ATF pressure by-passes N93 to apply to R and high clutch? if it does, then maybe my issue is that the old N93 is stuck, but if it doesn't then my issue is different.

      There is no way to know this as oil schematics are not available for 09A Vw trans. You might look at the mazda stuff and maybe you could get an answer but VW and mazda VB are significantly different.

      EDIT: I dont know why you said n93 there but n90 is the solenoid that inhibits reverse not n93.
      Last edited by CoolAirVw; 07-31-2012 at 09:48 AM.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
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      07-31-2012 10:13 AM #70
      also... have you attempted to drive forward? Meaning with the car assembled... not with the TCM disconnected or anything else? (sorry I dont have time to "re-read" to see if you did this.

      You might gain some valuable peice of info if there was a missing gear or something.
      Auto trans fluid change or flush will not make a trans fail. Stop spreading the wives tale/urban myth.
      ASE Master Certified Technician with L1 Advanced Diagnostic Rating Recently passed ASE certification for Light Diesel repair.
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      07-31-2012 02:33 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      Have you verified you put the wires on the correct solenoids?
      I'm sure I connected the wires on the correct solenoids, I checked the manual for the JF506E and the pictures I took before removing the valve body for the first time, so I'm sure they are correctly connected.

      Thank you for the info on why some of the solenoids don't click when energized.

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      07-31-2012 02:53 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      This paragraph makes no sense to me. I thought your problem was no reverse?
      My problem used to be no reverse, this issue was due to incorrect assembly: piston for multidisc brake B2 was not aligned, manual valve on the VB was not hooked and brake band servo was not properly adjusted. I fixed these 3 issues and reverse became available.
      My issue now is no pressure at low clutch tab, this issue started when I removed the VB because I wanted to check why I was having slight high pressure at idle at low clutch and reverse tabs, the entire VB was assembled correctly so I put it back together and installed it back and when I checked low clutch tab for pressure, gauge didn't show anything and car wouldn't move forward unless it was accelerated at around 2K RPMs but is very very slow, I checked for pressure at reverse tab and gauge showed high pressure at idle and car would move backwards.
      I checked all wire harnesses, inside the transmission, in the engine bay, in the plenum chamber, in the instrument panel, I even removed the dashboard to check all the wires and grounds.
      I found dirty ground points and 1 of them loose, a brake light switch closed at all times (both internal switches) and solenoid N93 having continuity between ground terminal and solenoid body which old solenoid does not have.
      I corrected all these issues, I replaced new N93 with the old N93. But transmission was still not showing pressure at low clutch tab. Then I checked TCM to see if it was energizing N88, N89 and N92 and one of them was not being energized when in D, a repair shop quoted too high to repair the TCM, I bought a used one, installed it but still no pressure at low clutch tab, I checked TCM to see if it was energizing N88, N89, N92 and N93 and this TCM is energizing them. This is when I disconnected the TCM to make the car go into limp mode and car started moving forward when at idle, and moved backwards when in R, so something is inhibiting the TCM to correctly comand the solenoids???...am I correct?

      All fuses, relays, wires, sensors and solenoids are OK. TCM is not showing any DTCs but still cannot see pressure at low clutch.

      Any input you may provide will be very much appreciated.

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      07-31-2012 02:59 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      Is this just a comment? Of course if your in failsafe your not gonna have pressure at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. IIRC trans takes off in 4th on this trans when in failsafe.
      I made this comment because transmission acts as it was in limp mode but "PRND432" display lights up correctly and there are no DTCs stored in the TCM or ECM or ABS modules. The difference I noticed when I dissconnected the transmission is that car can move forward when in D without having to accelerate it.
      When not in limp mode, I cannot see pressure at low clutch and car will move forward only when accelerated.
      R is always available and pressure is always high.

    24. Member
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      Jun 13th, 2009
      Location
      San Diego
      Posts
      501
      Vehicles
      2003/VW/1.8T Jetta 5sp Automatic
      07-31-2012 03:00 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      EDIT: I dont know why you said n93 there but n90 is the solenoid that inhibits reverse not n93.
      No reverse is no longer my issue, my current issue is no pressure at low clutch tab

    25. Member
      Join Date
      Jun 13th, 2009
      Location
      San Diego
      Posts
      501
      Vehicles
      2003/VW/1.8T Jetta 5sp Automatic
      07-31-2012 03:02 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolAirVw View Post
      also... have you attempted to drive forward? Meaning with the car assembled... not with the TCM disconnected or anything else? (sorry I dont have time to "re-read" to see if you did this.

      You might gain some valuable peice of info if there was a missing gear or something.
      I drove the car when I solved the no R issue, all gears kicked in, the only issue was slight high pressure when at idle

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