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    Thread: Drake 16v heads for sale

    1. 03-14-2011 08:21 PM #1
      I've seen a few threads on here about people looking for Drake 16v heads for sale. In a nutshell, I worked at Drake in the early 1980's and I ran the sales division for about a year before the street car division was sold off and moved to Yuma, AZ. The race division designed and manufactured the heads. When John Drake retired, he sold all the rights to the Drake patents, molds, and designs to former Drake Engineering principle engineer -- Stewart Van Dyne. Stewart started his own racing shop in Huntington Beach, CA in the mid/late 1980's.

      As of today (March-2011), Stewart has 4 or 5 of the Drake 16v heads available for sale, and one complete motor (displacement uknown). I'm pretty sure he has the molds and CnC programming to make more heads if necessary (but I'm not 100% sure).

      Anybody interested in the Drake 16v heads, please contact Stewart Van Dyno @ Van Dyne Engineering:
      (714) 847-4417

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      03-14-2011 09:16 PM #2
      keep in mind there are no manifolds available that will make these heads work in our cars. Awesome that Stewart has some available.

    3. 03-14-2011 10:22 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by antichristonwheels View Post
      keep in mind there are no manifolds available that will make these heads work in our cars. Awesome that Stewart has some available.
      Stewart owns the head design, and I'm pretty sure he can supply manifolds. I was speaking to him today about a motor project he's building for me, and he asked me to look over the VW forums for information about the Drake 16v (old articles to send him). During the call, he mentioned that he had 4 or 5 heads ready and available; one of them is on a complete motor. I don't think Stewart would have made that offer if he didn't have manifolds, cams, and everything to back it up such as manifolds, cams, and proper pistons (all pistons were custom made anyways). After all, Stewart did hand machine a few of these heads before Drake bought a CNC, so I don't think supplying the proper plumbing would be a problem.

      As for the manifolds. I recall there were two: 1) Carburated manifold. 2) Fuel Injected manifold. The carb manifold was usually outfitted with Mikuni 44's or Weber 45's (or was it visa-versa?). The fuel injected manifold was strictly mechanical fuel injection, and Drake used a Hilborn unit as I recall.

      Since Stewart owns the Drake 16v head design, I'm pretty sure if there was demand he could make more if necessary...but I can't be sure without asking him myself.

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      03-14-2011 11:22 PM #4
      Oddly I spoke with Stewart today as well about buying one of these heads, he asked me if I was going to run carbs of F.I. he said he would include the carb manifold as that was my direction. He didn't mention he didn't have any so I assume that is not an issue, we never spoke about exhaust manifolds which I suppose we should have.

      Are these heads a crossflow design like the VW with intake in the front and exhaust in the back?

    5. 03-14-2011 11:42 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by boomenstein View Post
      Oddly I spoke with Stewart today as well about buying one of these heads, he asked me if I was going to run carbs of F.I. he said he would include the carb manifold as that was my direction. He didn't mention he didn't have any so I assume that is not an issue, we never spoke about exhaust manifolds which I suppose we should have.

      Are these heads a crossflow design like the VW with intake in the front and exhaust in the back?
      Yes it's a cross flow head. Ports are 22 degrees with respect to the combustion chamber. It's a 3-piece head. It's hard to describe. There's a valve carrier, cam carrier, and valve cover. The valve carrier and cam carrier are machined such that -- when you loosen the head bolts, the head literally lifts itself away from the motor. The head bolts don't just come out until you separate the cam and valve carrier halves. So when it's bolted together, you can literally set the head down on the bench -- valves down -- and it will still be suspended by the head bolts and unable to bend the valves. It's an absolutely brilliant design.

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      03-15-2011 12:24 PM #6
      the engines sat straight up and down in Formula Vee. They were mounted north-south. the manifolds are not designed for our cars. I got this straight from John Drake 20 years ago. Still it's very cool the parts are available. I bet the total price is quite prohibitive.

    7. 03-15-2011 01:07 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by antichristonwheels View Post
      the engines sat straight up and down in Formula Vee. They were mounted north-south. the manifolds are not designed for our cars. I got this straight from John Drake 20 years ago. Still it's very cool the parts are available. I bet the total price is quite prohibitive.
      Well, John would certainly know. Did John say what the issue was with the manifolds? I can see the motor angle being an issue with carburated set up, but not sure how it affects the FI set up. FV would have been FI anyways wouldn't it? It's been too long ago to remember for me anyways.

      The weird part is these motors might not have ever competed in Forumula-Vee...at least none were made for FV while I worked there. (Wouldn't it have been Super-Vee for the water cooled motor? I still have a Super-Vee piston as a pencil holder on my desk.) All of the Drake 16v motors I saw assembled went to one or two customers who used them for midget racing. The one carburated street motor sat on the shelf in the shop (untouched) the entire time I worked there. It was a 1600cc street motor. Makes me wonder if the carb manifold had the right angle for a street car.

      BTW, John died about 3-4 years ago. We lost a great man -- far too young -- to a sudden heart attack.

    8. 03-15-2011 01:11 PM #8
      BTW, I just noticed that I keep ignoring the exhaust manifold part of this. That's because the exhaust manifolds (headers) were all custom anyways. So there never was anything for a street car, and shouldn't prevent somebody dropping one of these heads into a street car anyways. I know Stewart could give the steel plates for the exhaust ports, and any good header guy could make headers for it if the motor were mounted, and the exhaust port plates available. That's why I'm not concerned about the exhaust part of this.

      BTW, I'd LOVE to see one of these heads finally go into a street car.

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      03-15-2011 04:45 PM #9
      Stewart can make the headers right?

      The FI on these things was that Hilborn trumpet looking setup. Mounted in our cars it would stick through the hood.

      So did they put a price on a head, cams, etc?

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      03-15-2011 05:21 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by antichristonwheels View Post
      Stewart can make the headers right?

      The FI on these things was that Hilborn trumpet looking setup. Mounted in our cars it would stick through the hood.

      So did they put a price on a head, cams, etc?

      When I spoke with him on the phone he said $5000, but if we could get a few people interested the price might come down...pretty expensive but also super rare....

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      03-15-2011 05:36 PM #11
      **** i emailed them about it. Cant come up with that kind of dough right now. Few years down the road....I dont care if my car is a rustbucket if I have the money and there is one around Im all over it.

    12. 03-15-2011 07:34 PM #12
      Since I started this thread, I called Stewart to ask him some of the questions. Keep that my memories from working at Drake are 25+ years old. But as I spoke with Stewart a few minutes ago, I learned that my recollections have been largely very accurate.

      Completeness:
      Currently the cylinder heads are locked in storage. Stewart hasn't been able to assess how complete they are. It doesn't much matter because Stewart can make any of the missing parts. Currently Stewart has 5 or 6 heads, plus one complete motor with the Drake 16v head.

      Intake manifolds:
      There were two manifolds: Carburated and FI. The carb manifold was made for the street car and has the proper angle to it. The FI manifolds were trumpted for mechanical (Hilborn) fuel injection. In today's world, there are many possibilities for intake design. You could use the carb manifold as-is. You shouldn't have any problems clearing the hood...but nobody can be 100% sure without mocking the actual motor in the actual car. The second option would be to take the carb manifold and attach modern individual throttle bodies and electronic fuel injection -- programmed by one of many after-market ECU's. This would be a very nice solution. Or one could take the FI trumpets and cut/fabricate a proper plenum onto them.

      Exhaust manifold:
      No street headers were ever made. Stewart can provide the flanges which allows people to have their own headers made. Or if there's sufficient demand, Stewart could have headers made. But I'll stress...I don't think sufficient demand would be met by one or two sales.

      Pistons:
      Stewart would be willing to provide pistons in a variety of compression ratios. Since the pistons are custom-made, it's not a problem to have them made to just about any compression ratio.

      Block compatibility:
      The Drake 16v heads are compatible with the 1.7L or 1.8L blocks.

      Manufacturability:
      Stewart confirmed that he has all of the molds and CNC programming to remanufacture the heads, intake manifolds, and cams. So he can make more heads if necessary.

      Price
      $5000 doesn't seem realistic to me -- it seems too low. Stewart did tell one guy $5000, but that was with the provision that price was only good if multiple heads were sold. The one-off price would most likely be $6500-$7200. If you saw one of these heads in person, you'd know why they aren't cheap to manufacture. They are one of the most beautiful designed heads I've ever seen.

      If you're local to SoCal, then stop by Stewart's shop in Huntington Beach and look it over. Since Stewart is currently building my "Texas Mile" motor (4.7L V8 BMW M3 stroked, supercharged S65 motor), I'm sure I could coax him into letting me go through the storage shed and take pictures and post them. But I live 300 miles away and don't get down there very often.

      If anybody has any questions, I'll do my best to answer them, or get the answers from Stewart.

      Robert Collins

    13. 03-15-2011 07:36 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
      Pistons:
      Stewart would be willing to provide pistons in a variety of compression ratios. Since the pistons are custom-made, it's not a problem to have them made to just about any compression ratio.
      Pistons are not included in the price of the head.

      Robert Collins

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      03-15-2011 11:22 PM #14
      I forgot these things flow so much the Drake mill made power to 10000 on those little motors. Didn't they burn alky? This would be so uber cool on a 2+ liter bottom end. Too bad I can't afford a head AND a divorce.....

    15. 03-16-2011 11:06 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by antichristonwheels View Post
      I forgot these things flow so much the Drake mill made power to 10000 on those little motors. Didn't they burn alky? This would be so uber cool on a 2+ liter bottom end. Too bad I can't afford a head AND a divorce.....
      The highest I believe I ever saw one of these heads/motors dyno'd was about 9000-9200 RPMs. The most horsepower I ever saw was about 295 crank horsepower. I think I saw one crack 300 horsepower once, but the memories are so vague that I'm just not sure any longer. And all of that was on a 1935cc bottom end.

      I'm sure if you built a full 2L bottom end and added modern EFI and ECU tuning, you'd easily crack 300hp.

      One thing I forgot to mention about my conversation yesterday with Stewart:

      ECU Tuning:
      The best way to go to drop one of these heads onto a street motor is to use the carb manifold and add ITB's and EFI and a modern ECU. Stewart said he'd gladly work with somebody who wanted to "take the project all the way" and put the motor on the dyno (engine dyno) and do the full ECU mapping for the motor.

    16. 03-18-2011 03:22 PM #16
      Hi Robert Collins

      Read your articles years ago,very good info thanks.
      I would love to own a Drake head/engine!

      Btw what is the cam duration on these heads?
      Hassen
      Sunny South Africa

    17. 03-18-2011 04:22 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by HASSEN S.A View Post
      Hi Robert Collins

      Read your articles years ago,very good info thanks.
      I would love to own a Drake head/engine!

      Btw what is the cam duration on these heads?
      Hassen
      Sunny South Africa
      Thanks for the kind words.

      Unfortunately, I don't remember the duration of the cams any longer. As best I recall (and this is just mostly an educated guess), the 16v street motor was outfitted with the same grind as our 0.426 8v cams. I just tried to verify that by looking up my old VW articles, and in those I listed the Drake 16v cams as unknown lift. So I'm just not 100% sure any longer. You'd want something mild for a street car anyways -- so a 0.426 makes a lot of sense.

      Our racing 16v cams naturally had more lift and a lot more duration. But again, I just don't remember what they were.

      If somebody were to buy one today, cams could be made for whatever application that makes sense. I think the cams were made from billet anyways, so nobody is locked in to a particular cam grind -- you can choose whatever you want. Even if the cams aren't billet, unless they are already pre-ground, then any grind can be put on one of the cam blanks.

    18. 03-18-2011 07:13 PM #18
      I would Love to see what one of these 16v Heads look like. Please post some pictures. Very interested!

    19. 03-18-2011 07:52 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by MEGA 16v GLI View Post
      I would Love to see what one of these 16v Heads look like. Please post some pictures. Very interested!
      There's some pictures in this thread:
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...6v-s-post-here

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      03-20-2011 06:45 PM #20
      If you're local to SoCal, then stop by Stewart's shop in Huntington Beach and look it over.
      whats the shops address...

    21. 03-21-2011 12:35 AM #21
      Van Dyne Engineering
      17696 Metzler Ln.
      Huntington Beach, CA 92647
      (714) 847-4417

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      03-23-2011 09:35 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by MEGA 16v GLI View Post
      I would Love to see what one of these 16v Heads look like. Please post some pictures. Very interested!
      INA Engineering Inc.
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      03-26-2011 01:50 AM #23
      Note to self,

      Start selling crack.

      Skip the bentley.

      Buy Drake head.

      Put in rabbit.

      Become legend.




      It's amazing to see The Robert Collins from all the old drake articles that we've read over the years pop up in here, awesome! I will never have the money to get into one of these heads, but I hope that that someone with deeeeep pockets does and finally shows us all what we have been wondering for all these years, does that ancient drake dyno graph that runs out to 290+hp really exist.
      Quote Originally Posted by wilm13 View Post
      I refuse to say anything but A1, A2 and A3. As far as I am concerned VW stopped making cars after that.

    24. 04-11-2011 11:09 AM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by g60vw View Post
      Note to self,

      Start selling crack.

      Skip the bentley.

      Buy Drake head.

      Put in rabbit.

      Become legend.




      It's amazing to see The Robert Collins from all the old drake articles that we've read over the years pop up in here, awesome! I will never have the money to get into one of these heads, but I hope that that someone with deeeeep pockets does and finally shows us all what we have been wondering for all these years, does that ancient drake dyno graph that runs out to 290+hp really exist.
      Keep in mind, those dyno graphs are from a motor dyno, not chassis dyno. Yes I can vouch they are accurate because I saw at least 10+ of those motors dyno'd. But those were a pure racing application: 1935cc, 14:1 compression ratio, and running methanol. As I recall, the highest I ever saw one dyno was in the low 290's. I think I saw quite a few around 286-287.

    25. 04-11-2011 11:30 AM #25
      Over this past weekend, I drove to SoCal and took a visit to Stewart's shop to check on my motor build...but just as important I wanted to check on the Drake 16v stuff and report back to this forum. I took just under 100 pictures...which I will post later today.

      Here's what we found.

      Motors:
      There is one complete Drake 16v motor. The motor has a factory distributor, and oil pan. This is a good sign that this motor was the only "street car" Drake 16v that I remember from the shop. The odd part is that it's built on the "H" block, and not the 1.6L block as I would have expected.

      There's a short block without the head attached. The short block has a dry sump and all of the dry sump pump stack attached. This short block is on the 1.6L block. The cylinder walls are rusted, so this is probably junk -- except for the dry sump and pumps.

      Complete Heads:
      There are four complete, or near-complete heads. One of these is on the complete motor. So there are three other heads. One head is complete with cams, valves, springs, etc. It's complete. The other two are disassembled...but together. These have valve seats installed, but no valves, valve springs, cams, or cam followers. Stewart said he probably wouldn't sell any of these used heads because he and his son would rather use them for their own recreational projects (sand buggies, etc.).

      Head castings:
      There are head castings to make five complete heads. We found all of the jigs for the CnC, so it a simple matter of taking these castings to the CnC, download the programming, and a few hours later you get a Drake 16v head. These castings are in perfect shape.

      Intake manifolds:
      We were only able to find one fuel injection intake manifold, and one modified FI intake manifold with a downdraft carb attached to it. We didn't find any carb manifolds. The carb manifolds are probably the most useful right now because you can attach ITB's and away you go. The carb manifolds can be remanufactured without any problems.

      Cams:
      We found at least a dozen or maybe two dozen cams and cam blanks. When I worked at Drake, I recall we always used billet cams on these motors. Most of the cams we found were from castings. So this must have been a change that John Drake made after Stewart and I no longer worked at Drake Engineering. We found abour four cam blanks. All others were racing cams which can be reground to street cam applications.

      Other parts:
      The other parts we found were somewhat sporadic. We found a bunch of cam sprockets -- probably enough for 4 or 5 heads. We only found a few valves, springs, etc. These shouldn't matter anyways because getting these parts is only a phone call and a few days wait to order them. Drake always ordered these on demand anyways, so it's no wonder that no stock exists of these parts.

      Prices:
      Stewart and I went over prices and looked at them many different ways. I really don't think it's realistic to expect one of these heads to go out of there less than $6500; I think the $7200 for the complete head is more realistic. The deeper and deeper we got into the pricing, we realized all of the accessories that needed to go along with it. For example at the low end of pricing, valves, springs, belt drive, and manifolds wouldn't be included. But once you include these things, the price continues to go up. So I'm really just making a guestimate of prices here, and anybody who's interested needs to negotiate directly with Stewart.

    26. 04-11-2011 12:51 PM #26
      I highly recommend somebody archive these photos because eventually I'll take them down. I'll promise to leave them at my server for at least two years. But I still recommend somebody download and archive these photos.

      Drake 16v Motor Pictures:



















    27. Senior Member cyclops594's Avatar
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      04-11-2011 12:54 PM #27
      Very, very cool!
      Last edited by cyclops594; 04-11-2011 at 12:59 PM.

    28. 04-11-2011 01:00 PM #28
      I highly recommend somebody archive these photos because eventually I'll take them down. I'll promise to leave them at my server for at least two years. But I still recommend somebody download and archive these photos.












































































    29. 04-11-2011 01:05 PM #29
      I highly recommend somebody archive these photos because eventually I'll take them down. I'll promise to leave them at my server for at least two years. But I still recommend somebody download and archive these photos.

      Drake 16v Cams & Combusion Chamber:

















    30. 04-11-2011 01:08 PM #30
      I highly recommend somebody archive these photos because eventually I'll take them down. I'll promise to leave them at my server for at least two years. But I still recommend somebody download and archive these photos.

      Drake 16v Intake (FI and variants)



















    31. 04-11-2011 01:13 PM #31
      I highly recommend somebody archive these photos because eventually I'll take them down. I'll promise to leave them at my server for at least two years. But I still recommend somebody download and archive these photos.

      Dry Sump:












      Pistons:












      Molds:





    32. 04-11-2011 01:19 PM #32

    33. Senior Member cyclops594's Avatar
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      04-11-2011 01:43 PM #33

    34. Member g60vw's Avatar
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      04-11-2011 03:31 PM #34
      Someone who's rich needs to get on this! Amazing that this window into history has been opened and a huge thanks to Mr. Collins for getting this info out to the masses. I remember reading about the drake stuff in that old VW Performance book from the 80's by Greg Raven, and even then they were considered Unicorn parts. You would never see them, you would never have them, and be glad you even know they existed.

      Again, thank you for showing us all this stuff, truly amazing!
      Quote Originally Posted by wilm13 View Post
      I refuse to say anything but A1, A2 and A3. As far as I am concerned VW stopped making cars after that.

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      04-11-2011 06:44 PM #35
      if i had the cash.....

      "brand new reproduction drake 16v heads for sale"

      almost every guy with a 16v would want one. this is baller.
      Fur die Liebe des Fahrens. Nicht einen Schwanz zu werden

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