Drake 16v heads for sale

[cyclops594]

huge thanks to Mr. Collins for getting this info out to the masses.

Again, thank you for showing us all this stuff, truly amazing!

X2!

[sdezego]

... I remember reading about the drake stuff in that old VW Performance book from the 80's by Greg Raven..

You don't still have your's? That book was my bible back in the late 80's

..and even then they were considered Unicorn parts. You would never see them, you would never have them, and be glad you even know they existed.

ha, yea. I had the Drake catalog in the 80's and still have the vision of the super V engine pictured on the Dyno. Either on the cover or on the 1st page (I forget). I really with I still had it, but I think it got cleaned out with a lot of my VW & P magazines

This is definitely some cool stuff. If I had the coin, I would buy the whole lot of stuff.

[PencilGeek]

[PencilGeek]

Here's something I just thought of. That "junk" short block might not be so "junk" after all. When I worked at Drake, we used the Okrasa crankshaft for all of our racing motors. That crankshaft alone might make buying that shortblock worth it (and the dry sump doesn't hurt either).

[Digital K.]

$5000 doesn't seem realistic to me -- it seems too low. Stewart did tell one guy $5000, but that was with the provision that price was only good if multiple heads were sold. The one-off price would most likely be $6500-$7200. If you saw one of these heads in person, you'd know why they aren't cheap to manufacture. They are one of the most beautiful designed heads I've ever seen.

I laughed. this is still vw stuff man! You are talking ferrari cylinder heads at those prices... I mean...all of that stuff is going to have to be gone through by an expert machinist since they werent valuable enough to whoever owned them to take good care of them in the first place. Its going to cost a small fortune to get one of these going properly again. when I saw the thread, in my head I went "if its around $1500 I'll get one". But man... 7 large? I think I'd rather own a 911 so I had an engine worth putting $10,000-$12,000 into? At least then I'd be driving a panty dropper. Instead of an econobox.

That said. Its amazing these parts still exist. Any of us would love to make something like this work, as an homage to one of the old greats. its too bad they werent found by someone who wants to restore and use them, rather than someone so unplugged they left them rot in storage for 25 years.

why are the original prices blacked out in the image above?

[PencilGeek]

I laughed. this is still vw stuff man! You are talking ferrari cylinder heads at those prices... I mean...all of that stuff is going to have to be gone through by an expert machinist since they werent valuable enough to whoever owned them to take good care of them in the first place. Its going to cost a small fortune to get one of these going properly again. when I saw the thread, in my head I went "if its around $1500 I'll get one". But man... 7 large? I think I'd rather own a 911 so I had an engine worth putting $10,000-$12,000 into? At least then I'd be driving a panty dropper. Instead of an econobox.

That said. Its amazing these parts still exist. Any of us would love to make something like this work, as an homage to one of the old greats. its too bad they werent found by someone who wants to restore and use them, rather than someone so unplugged they left them rot in storage for 25 years.

why are the original prices blacked out in the image above?

A couple of clarifications here.

The only heads that are for sale are brand new from castings haven't even been machined yet. There are enough castings to make five new heads. The current owner also owns the design, molds, and CnC programming. If somebody wanted 100 of them, they could be made.

These are the left-overs when John Drake retired, and sold to his former engine builder who now has his own racing shop in Huntington Beach, CA. They were never left in storage to rot, and the castings look like they just came from the foundry. If I showed pictures of the castings, it doesn't give anybody an idea what an assembled head looks like. That's why I photographed the completed heads and partically disassembled head so others could see what it looks like inside and out.

I hope that makes more sense now.

[PencilGeek]

why are the original prices blacked out in the image above?

Stewart asked that I black out the original 1985 prices.

[g60vw]

Well probably because.........

Because I love cylinder heads



>

[g60vw]

It's also worth saying that $3500 in 1985 is about $7k today, so relatively speaking it's the "same" money. Not that this head didn't cost about 1/3 the price of a new GTI then, or now. It's still big coin.

[Digital K.]

A couple of clarifications here.

The only heads that are for sale are brand new from castings haven't even been machined yet. There are enough castings to make five new heads. The current owner also owns the design, molds, and CnC programming. If somebody wanted 100 of them, they could be made.

These are the left-overs when John Drake retired, and sold to his former engine builder who now has his own racing shop in Huntington Beach, CA. They were never left in storage to rot, and the castings look like they just came from the foundry. If I showed pictures of the castings, it doesn't give anybody an idea what an assembled head looks like. That's why I photographed the completed heads and partically disassembled head so others could see what it looks like inside and out.

I hope that makes more sense now.

Stewart asked that I black out the original 1985 prices.

Realistically no one cares what the original price was. Its a historical piece, and the original price has little bearing on what its valued at today.... however the guilty conscience evident from the blacking out the original price is stupid. Why do that?

So you are talking around $7000 for a complete head with new cams, all new valves and etc? How much is the manifold to go with it and such? Just trying to get a bearing on what realistically is going on here. I've had $2500 into some ****box 16v 9a head. You are not TOO Far off, but I think the original 5000$ idea for a NEWLY built item, is a bit closer, albeit, just a bit too much for me personally to bear. Plus the additional expenses of all the **** needed to make it work? I dunno man. Theres probably only a couple people in the country that would do that. They have more money than brains.

In my humble opinion there just isn't enough money in the old school market to bear the weight of the costs you are talking about. Im just being honest with you. Of course this is all my opinion and I may be wrong. From a "i have money and would actually buy this ****" standpoint it just might not happen at that price. Especially not considering theres a lot more to go into this than just a head.

It's also worth saying that $3500 in 1985 is about $7k today, so relatively speaking it's the "same" money. Not that this head didn't cost about 1/3 the price of a new GTI then, or now. It's still big coin.

Back in the day this was the latest greatest **** for the newest hottest **** racing on legitimately competitive circuits. The people that would have bought that stuff and have the money to do so drive new TDI cup cars, and FSI ****. Know what I mean?

just rambling my thoughts....

[g60vw]

I see where you're coming from Kris, and I'm with you. When I look at how much it would cost to make one these actually happen, in the car, and running, I think it's in the neiborhood of $10-15k. That said, there are people who are near that dollar level on vw motors or oettinger builds. I guess my point is that if a person was in the market to build a doomsday NA motor, then this would be a viable option.

Consider what it would cost to do a full tilt vw head, full schrick solid lifter, big valve, etc, I would imagine that would be $5k easy, never priced it out because that's way too rich for my blood.

I think these heads are an amazing piece of engineering and history all rolled up into one, and all any of us really want to see is someone, anyone, put one in a street car.

[Digital K.]

I see where you're coming from Kris, and I'm with you. When I look at how much it would cost to make one these actually happen, in the car, and running, I think it's in the neiborhood of $10-15k. That said, there are people who are near that dollar level on vw motors or oettinger builds. I guess my point is that if a person was in the market to build a doomsday NA motor, then this would be a viable option.

Consider what it would cost to do a full tilt vw head, full schrick solid lifter, big valve, etc, I would imagine that would be $5k easy, never priced it out because that's way too rich for my blood.

I think these heads are an amazing piece of engineering and history all rolled up into one, and all any of us really want to see is someone, anyone, put one in a street car.

I think there might be a market for this in europe, as vw's are their hotrods. Theres guys here that will put a 20,000$ motor all day long into their old ****box chevy. its the same in europe. vw's and **** like that are their hotrods. I just dont think its the same gig over here in terms of the amount of people willing to do something like this.

For reference I had krom build me a head. the works. everything. I think I ended up right at around $3000 or $3500 once I was done with it. I had $2500 into some other head. However, I can slap whatever manifold on those, and down the road I go. I can also buy valves and lifters if something goes wrong.

And by people building oettinger builds like that, you mean PERSON right?

[g60vw]

And by people building oettinger builds like that, you mean PERSON right?

I LOL'd!


I built a 16v once. It cost twice as much as I planned and so far is about 20-30 hp shy of my original conservative goal. My next 16v build won't even be a build. Stock. 200hp at the crank. Oh I forgot, it's an FSI and sitting on a stand waiting..........


I'm sorry that I have derailed this thread so far, I will stop.

[Digital K.]

I LOL'd!


I built a 16v once. It cost twice as much as I planned and so far is about 20-30 hp shy of my original conservative goal. My next 16v build won't even be a build. Stock. 200hp at the crank. Oh I forgot, it's an FSI and sitting on a stand waiting..........


I'm sorry that I have derailed this thread so far, I will stop.

its a discussion board. don't worry about it.

[PencilGeek]

...However, I can slap whatever manifold on those, and down the road I go. I can also buy valves and lifters if something goes wrong...

The Drake 16v head is more serviceable than people might realize. All of the valve seats, valve guides, valves, valve stem seals, valve springs, and cam followers are off the shelf components -- just not necessarily all VW components. In that regard, this head is no different than any other head: all of the parts are readily available as off the shelf components, provided you know which parts to order. Anybody doing an engine build on this head would be given all of the service data for replacement parts.

[Digital K.]

good luck I guess.

[bomberbob]

Photos of these heads amount to automotive porn. And I like it.
I echo the sentiments of others, I wish I could justify putting this in my car, but its not worth it. My car came out of a farmers chicken coop. Paid 400 bucks for it. To sink this much into a cylinder head is absolutely crazy. I can't help but wonder how much enjoyment I would have ripping down the highway with one of these heads, megasquirted, running E85.
Is there no one with the finances to buy and run one of these, so the rest of us can at least see the legend resurrected? I am almost tempted to go get a second job just to save up for one.

[GTIMaxx]

I'm gonna make sure I keep playing the powerball and some scratch off. Hopefully I get lucky.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[MEGA 16v GLI]

WOW! Beautiful head design. Super-V. I cant imagine how crazy it would be to run this head with a turbo.

This head would be making alota love with a 1.8L block.

[aaronmcadoo]

amazing pieces of history their. I would love to have one of them to build around my mk1. They are a bit out of my price range though thanks for sharing them with us.

[HASSEN S.A]

A huge shout out goes to Robert Collins once again for putting this info and product out here on the net after
So many years! For the pics and effort to get them, just awesome!

I'm from another continent, and I would love to own one of those heads (busy saving actually). I read about
The legendary Drake head many years ago and a good friend and I tried getting more info or even an actual
Head all to no avail so for it to be offered up new on the net after almost 20yrs of searching is
Just incredible.
I managed to get an Oettinger head easier than it was finding more info on the Drake. I think the price is relative
Its value.
Btw does anyone have the brochure?
Ciao from South Africa

[max and tiny]

does anyone know another way to contact Steve? I called him and left a message and i have emailed him. i very interested at getting a complete head. any help is appreciated.

[PencilGeek]

You mean to call Stewart? Just keep trying his business number, it's not hard to get through to him.

Stewart Van Dyne
(714) 847-4417

[max and tiny]

ok ill try again. i tryed that number before and i also emailed him frrom this company's web page

[PencilGeek]

ok ill try again. i tryed that number before and i also emailed him frrom this company's web page

EMail is probably not the best way to get in touch with Stewart, but the phone always works for me. I'll talk to Stewart today or tomorrow and kick him around a little for not getting back to people.

[max and tiny]

thanks. i just want the price for a whole head.

[Brian.G]

Its made that way because the line of head bolts sit at/on/under cam lines, and they would not be accessible for tightening without first removing cams anyway.
Its also easier make.

[PencilGeek]

Here's an update on people trying to get in touch with Stewart. I won't quote exactly what he said because it was filled with both filled with swear words and hilarious at the same time.

Keep in mind, Stewart built an Indy-500 winning motor...back in 1972. So he's getting up there in his 60's. He doesn't really "do" technology. He recently discovered his web site email link was broken; so if anybody sent an email...he never got it. It doesn't matter much because he won't really look at the emails anyways. The same goes for the answering machine. He advised against leaving messages. For anybody trying to get in touch with Stewart, he said to just keep calling and calling until you get an answer.

In a 10-minute phone call, he can answer more questions than a month's worth of emails. Stewart put it this way: "The phone was invented 100 years ago...and it f*ing still works."

There's also been the discovery of a fresh Drake 16v race motor. The motor was built, and apparently never raced. It is supposedly "fresh" and in Southern California. It's most likely the motor I once owned, but no way to completely verify that now since I don't remember what my serial number was. But if it were mine, that would explain why it's in Southern California -- when all of the other Drake 16v motors were sold out of state.

As a Drake 16v motor, it's built with about 1935cc, and either Okrasa crank, or Moldex billet crank, Carillow rods, and 14:1 compression ratio JE Pistons. It's complete with dry sump, dry sump pump, magneto (crank fire ignition), and distributor. It probably has the Hilborne fuel injection too, but I didn't confirm that. At 14:1 compression ratio, it was designed to run on methanol. Horsepower output would be apprixomately 275-285 horsepower at the crank. Price for the full race motor: $10,000. For anybody wanting to take this motor and turn it into a street motor, it's a steal of a deal -- especially considering the Okrasa or Moldex crank, Carillo rods, and dry sump. My hunch is this price is negotiable, but probably by no more than about $500 (that's just my guess).

Again, for people trying to reach Stewart, call, don't email, and don't leave messages:
Stewart Van Dyne
(714) 847-4417

[vnichw]

Back in the early eighties my shop was doing business with Drake when you were still in Orange ,Ca. We bought several engines and other goodies(Headers,Liestritz exhausts,LAMBDA controls,suspensions, cams ...)I think just about everything as there were not many sources back then.. Anyway I remember dealing with Tim... where did he wind up?..Also. what would it take to make the centrifical advance cam gear?

[PencilGeek]

Back in the early eighties my shop was doing business with Drake when you were still in Orange ,Ca. We bought several engines and other goodies(Headers,Liestritz exhausts,LAMBDA controls,suspensions, cams ...)I think just about everything as there were not many sources back then.. Anyway I remember dealing with Tim... where did he wind up?..Also. what would it take to make the centrifical advance cam gear?

Tim is Stewart's brother. Tim ended up in Tempe Arizona last I heard -- 20+ years ago. I don't know where he is today.

We had a prototype centrifugal cam gear that we dyno tested once. I don't remember if it made any power over the non-centri cam gear. It would seem likely that it made more torque in the bottom end, and same up top, but frankly I just don't remember. It was a rather clunky device loaded with springs.

What was the name of your shop...I might remember you.

[vnichw]

Tim is Stewart's brother. Tim ended up in Tempe Arizona last I heard -- 20+ years ago. I don't know where he is today.

We had a prototype centrifugal cam gear that we dyno tested once. I don't remember if it made any power over the non-centri cam gear. It would seem likely that it made more torque in the bottom end, and same up top, but frankly I just don't remember. It was a rather clunky device loaded with springs.

What was the name of your shop...I might remember you.

CDSI we were in Lombard Illinios..

[vnichw]

CDSI we were in Lombard Illinios..

I remember Tim always trying to sell me one(so it would no longer be a prototype?). And remember being told the same low end and top end characteristics...

[rabbitarmy]

If I thought I could get one of these into a car and running for $5k I'd do it, even though it means basically throwing out the first $5k or so I probably have into it. At $10k, plus the miscellaneous accessories, I'll just buy another car.

[IronTrap]

So the "fresh" race engine is a friend of Stewart's? Did he ever talk cost for the complete engine he has in those pictures?

[MEGA 16v GLI]

So much time, money, work and commitment would go into getting one of these heads running but there would be nothing that could compare to the outcome. I think the cost would be worth it in the end.

I wish i could meet the designers just to thank them for making something so beautiful.

Thanks for posting this piece of history for everybody to see.