Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
    Results 71 to 105 of 203

    Thread: Most Off-Road Capable Stock Vehicle

    1. 03-29-2011 12:10 PM #71
      I'm glad for the discussion that is going on here and I have learned a lot so far, being an off-road newbie. Definitely a good mature discussion regarding the overall driving approach to driving off-road.

      The XJ discussion, while being quite informative and ultimately is one approach when building a dedicated/dual-purpose rig, is outside the bounds of what one can get in the past five years. It definitely has given me some insight on what to do/build for a more trail capable rig in the future, because it is a somewhat similar approach to building my previous track/auto-x '91 civic si.

      Carry on

    2. Member
      Join Date
      Sep 16th, 2000
      Location
      Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
      Posts
      12,431
      Vehicles
      1994 Land Cruiser
      03-29-2011 01:25 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by CreeperSleeper View Post
      FYI, you can import in 70-series Land Cruisers... There is one that is daily driven in Tualatin, OR I see every once in a while and a handful of TLCA members in the states have them.

      Are you sure they aren't old Prados instead of newer 76s. I can't see why new LCs wouldn't be restricted like cars of similar vintage.

    3. Member CreeperSleeper's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 29th, 2003
      Location
      Tualatin, OR
      Posts
      7,848
      Vehicles
      '00 LX470, '84 Toy "crawler"
      03-29-2011 01:27 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by CBJ View Post
      Are you sure they aren't old Prados instead of newer 76s. I can't see why new LCs wouldn't be restricted like cars of similar vintage.
      Yes, I'm sure. All cars are restricted but there are ways around it. You probably couldn't license a new 70-series but I know I could get a late 80's one here with OR plates and title!

    4. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 17th, 1999
      Location
      Windsor, VT USA
      Posts
      24,348
      Vehicles
      '10 Prius - '05 4Runner
      03-29-2011 01:44 PM #74
      There's definitely a few in the states, gray-market trucks. Some states are easier then others to get (and keep) them registered legally in.

      1985 is the year anything we want can be imported, you're starting to see some of the legal, 25-year old BJ70's hit the market now.

      Of course, in Canada, it's only 15 years so there are a lot more choices up in the land of poutine and bagged milk.
      Quote Originally Posted by redshift View Post
      Furthermore Susan, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this purveyor of bleep-bloop music was in fact staging a farce.
      Ukemafia.com

    5. Member
      Join Date
      May 27th, 2008
      Location
      Malvern, PA
      Posts
      6,197
      Vehicles
      5.3L Wrangler
      03-29-2011 03:56 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by robbyb413 View Post
      That's a very interesting thought process you have, considering that so many Jeep Wrangler, Cherokee, and GC parts in the running gear department, the stuff you're going to break while wheeling, is interchangeable or can be adapted to work and all cost about the same from the vendors anyway.

      Really though, an XJ has no bearing on this since the OP set forth the 5 year rule and they're not going to meet anyone's criteria of being the "most capable" in stock form with only a tire change. If you were to put 30" mud tires on there you'd be running at it's max it will fit without lift, and those won't have the ability to let your axles play about without rubbing. That's a disadvantage out of the box that you can't get around.

      Mod for Mod the XJ costs more than TJs and JKs as well because you just have more work and dump more cash into mods to do to keep up with the TJ or the JK. It takes twice as much lift to clear the same tires with the XJ, and that creates extra cost and extra labor at each stage of your build. They're not the smart move for wheeling at all, really.
      Since we know have the blessing of the OP to continue this, and the Yota/Rover guys are looking the other way, on their own separate tangent...

      It was never my intention to propose Cherokee as a contender in this thread. I was just reinforcing the point you were making about parts availability. If you're gonna play, you're gonna break stuff. If you want to play cheap, weekends you're not trail riding, you're junkyard diggin.

      On the wrangler/cherokee debate. Stock for stock? There is no debate that the wrangler is better than the station wagon. I wouldn't even go there.

      Cost? You brought up cost?
      Sure... it could be done similiarly, if you ignore purchase price completely.
      4.0L, AX-15 trans, np231 with 100k
      Cherokee? $1000-$2000
      Wrangler? $4000-$8000

      A lot of the parts interchange, a lot more than you'd think don't.
      Axle shafts do, but the carrier is different, and gear sets are different. Some TJ guys upgrade to the high pinion 30 from the XJ, which is slightly better than the low pinion 30 in the TJ.
      Driveshafts, totally different.
      Rear axles, totally different. If you're gonna change coil buckets to leaves, or vice versa, you're not using something out of an XJ, unless you find an 87 with a D44, and even then, you'd get more for it with leaf perches than you would with coil buckets.
      Most GC's are 5 on 5, and have D44A. I'd take the knuckles and lower control arms, but that's about it. Axle width ain't the same. ZJ Grands (93-98) had a lot more parts that can be used, they were a lot more XJ back then, but they're getting sparse in the yards I go to.
      Springs? different widths & rates. Sure they can be swapped, but a 3" front spring kit for a TJ does not equal 3" on the front of a Cherokee.
      Putting an XJ 4.0L in a Wrangler? Think again, unless you don't really need an alternator.

      5.3L Wrangler work in progress
      Quote Originally Posted by Juniper Monkeys View Post
      "Less Forethought, More Welding"

    6. Moderator robbyb413's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 12th, 2002
      Location
      Longmeadow, MA / Boston, MA
      Posts
      16,297
      Vehicles
      2010 S4 Prestige, 1987 Grady White 206G Overnighter, 2010 A4 P+ (Hers)
      03-29-2011 06:54 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by deucestudios View Post
      Cost? You brought up cost?
      Sure... it could be done similiarly, if you ignore purchase price completely.
      4.0L, AX-15 trans, np231 with 100k
      Cherokee? $1000-$2000
      Wrangler? $4000-$8000
      You drink the JeepForum XJ Kool Aid Deep don't you?

      Good luck finding someone other than an XJ owner trying to tell themselves they made the right choice in vehicle selection to believe that price differential! Sure Suzy Soccer mom overpays, but that's not the buyer to put into play when you're trying to make a point as it pertains to this thread about people who are buying them to take off road. TJs with less mileage and some light mods are $5k all day. You can grab 97 and 98s for $2500-3k with those specs and mileage at this point.

      Dream on with that XJ being the better choice friend!

      Tell you what though, find me someone who's willing to spend that on a TJ with 100k and I'll sell them one all day long for profit with all the cheap jeeps on CL. Heck, I didn't even pay that much for one that's only a few years old with under 40k on the odometer. And it came with 4" of lift, 33" tires, adjustable track bars, adjustable control arms, 4.10 gearing, and a s35 with an OX, among other things. The most Jeeps were going for other than the dealerships was $5k.

    7. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 7th, 2006
      Location
      Western Mass
      Posts
      1,376
      Vehicles
      Fiesta ST, Jeep 4.0, BMW e12
      03-29-2011 10:56 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by robbyb413 View Post

      Tell you what though, find me someone who's willing to spend that on a TJ with 100k and I'll sell them one all day long for profit with all the cheap jeeps on CL. Heck, I didn't even pay that much for one that's only a few years old with under 40k on the odometer. And it came with 4" of lift, 33" tires, adjustable track bars, adjustable control arms, 4.10 gearing, and a s35 with an OX, among other things. The most Jeeps were going for other than the dealerships was $5k.
      Really? At least in the western part of the state, Wranglers hold their value MUCH better than Cherokees.

      And if you did pick up a TJ that was well modded with under 40k miles for around $6k, than you definitely got a deal and that is not the norm.

    8. Member MCTB's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2005
      Location
      Crosstours EVERYWHERE!!!
      Posts
      8,673
      Vehicles
      '12 Focus SE, '72 MGB GT, '58 MGA, '15 Outback Limited
      03-30-2011 08:43 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      There's definitely a few in the states, gray-market trucks. Some states are easier then others to get (and keep) them registered legally in.

      1985 is the year anything we want can be imported, you're starting to see some of the legal, 25-year old BJ70's hit the market now.

      Of course, in Canada, it's only 15 years so there are a lot more choices up in the land of poutine and bagged milk.
      There are a few 70s in the States. Most are in under the 25 year law. Problem is finding a good one. Just about everything, with rare exception, coming out of Canadia are buckets of rust. Finding a good one is tough. True, in Canadia they can get their hands on diesel 80s but they cannot come into this country and from everything that I have read, that is under fire too.

      As for the Cherokee argument. I had one. It was okay. 4.7 stroker with lift and 33's. It was pretty damn fast and did alright on the trail but I really didnt like it. Are they pretty capable? Sure they are and they are definitely much cheaper than a similar condition Wrangler but the Wrangler has its advantages of coils all around (TJ ->) and a frame (not getting into unibody v. frame debate). The plus to any Jeep is that you can find parts ANYWHERE. Others, not so much. Its all in the market availability. Its like taxis. In Europe, Mercs are taxis. Here, they are luxury cars. If I need a part for my BJ60, I might find one or two 60s in the junkyard (and they wont be diesels) for every 50 Jeeps.

      If you have the money (I cant be the only one who thinks that Rubicons are crazy over priced), I would go the the Jeep dealer and plunk down on whatever style you want. If you dont like them, go to the Nissan dealer and get an XTerra with the Off Road package. If you dont like that, find a diesel powered WK Jeep Grand Cherokee (the Quadratrac II, or whatever, works really really well).

      G Wagons are okay but overpriced, undersupplied and spares are strictly controlled by Mercedes so forget dealer alternatives for new parts. Leg humpers will expound the advantages of a Power Wagon or a Raptor but will never mention that the damn things are just too wide for most trails (depends on where you live though). Land Rovers are great but I wouldnt be caught dead on a trail with a new one. Forget it. Did a Rover event and a guy showed up with an LR3 with every bit of kit on it. He took the entrance road at Rausch, bypassed the first trail and then decided to turn around and go back to the lot. I have a few pictures of a guy who had an LR3. He was in Moab, way out in the middle of nowhere and had a suspension failure. It fell flat onto its right front wheel and was not drivable. That was an expensive tow.

    9. 03-30-2011 08:59 AM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by robbyb413 View Post
      Good luck finding someone other than an XJ owner trying to tell themselves they made the right choice in vehicle selection to believe that price differential! Sure Suzy Soccer mom overpays, but that's not the buyer to put into play when you're trying to make a point as it pertains to this thread about people who are buying them to take off road. TJs with less mileage and some light mods are $5k all day. You can grab 97 and 98s for $2500-3k with those specs and mileage at this point.
      i don't know the market on the east coast, but there is not a chance in hell i could get into a wrangler (TJ, YJ, CJ, what have you) for what i have in my XJ ('95, 155). I have $2k in my XJ, sitting on 31s and 3in lift. That includes the maintenence i have done on it (new calipers, brake lines, fluids, waterpump, diff fluid, spark plugs, recovery points, etc, etc)

      You cannot get a solid good running wrangler for $2k, trust me. my buddy just bought a barely running '88 wrangler for $2.8k and even that was a good deal.

      I'm not arguing that an XJ is better than a wrangler, but to get on the trails on the cheap, an XJ is a no-brainer.....

    10. Member
      Join Date
      May 27th, 2008
      Location
      Malvern, PA
      Posts
      6,197
      Vehicles
      5.3L Wrangler
      03-30-2011 09:16 AM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by robbyb413 View Post
      You drink the JeepForum XJ Kool Aid Deep don't you?

      Good luck finding someone other than an XJ owner trying to tell themselves they made the right choice in vehicle selection to believe that price differential! Sure Suzy Soccer mom overpays, but that's not the buyer to put into play when you're trying to make a point as it pertains to this thread about people who are buying them to take off road. TJs with less mileage and some light mods are $5k all day. You can grab 97 and 98s for $2500-3k with those specs and mileage at this point.

      Dream on with that XJ being the better choice friend!

      Tell you what though, find me someone who's willing to spend that on a TJ with 100k and I'll sell them one all day long for profit with all the cheap jeeps on CL. Heck, I didn't even pay that much for one that's only a few years old with under 40k on the odometer. And it came with 4" of lift, 33" tires, adjustable track bars, adjustable control arms, 4.10 gearing, and a s35 with an OX, among other things. The most Jeeps were going for other than the dealerships was $5k.
      It's cheaper to wheel a Cherokee than it is to wheel a Wrangler. You think I'm wrong, then prove it. That's the only point I'm making, and I'm starting to feel like an ass for talking about it in this thread, because defending the XJ was never my intention. Stock, it's not an extremely capable offroader, it does well, but not amazing. If you add a few bits, it can be a very cheap way to have some fun.
      The TJ Wrangler is better off road than the Cherokee, but less common and typically picked clean in junkyards.

      Yours was 4.10? axle swap or 2.5L?
      You might want to check out Boston's craigslist, you may be surprised by the numbers.
      If you could find that TJ for $3000, then I'd be doing a 4 coil lift for my old man this weekend, instead of 2 coils and 2 leaves. We looked since around thanksgiving last year for that bargain wrangler you're talking about, and couldn't find one worth buying for 3 or 4 grand, so he settled on a Cherokee. Yes, settled. Because the wrangler would have been the better choice for what he's going to use it for, but price ended up being the determining factor.
      I'm on JeepForum, but I'm speaking from 5 years experience in a XJ, 3 years in a TJ, and 4 years in a YJ wrangler. Not trying to boast, or talk down to anyone, all I'm saying, is I'm speaking from personal experience, I'm not just spewing BS I read online.

      Quote Originally Posted by morecarsthanbrains View Post
      Did a Rover event and a guy showed up with an LR3 with every bit of kit on it. He took the entrance road at Rausch, bypassed the first trail and then decided to turn around and go back to the lot.
      Running over the little rocks as you cut through the comp course is serious business.
      5.3L Wrangler work in progress
      Quote Originally Posted by Juniper Monkeys View Post
      "Less Forethought, More Welding"

    11. Member MCTB's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2005
      Location
      Crosstours EVERYWHERE!!!
      Posts
      8,673
      Vehicles
      '12 Focus SE, '72 MGB GT, '58 MGA, '15 Outback Limited
      03-30-2011 11:38 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by deucestudios View Post
      Running over the little rocks as you cut through the comp course is serious business.
      Absolutely is. He got out of his truck with a Nautica jacket, a salmon Polo shirt, some sort of footwear like topsiders and one of those leather/ fabric belts with little sailboats sewn on it. Went perfectly with the truck. It was all kind of comical really. I wouldnt wish one of those new Rovers on an enemy.

    12. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 7th, 2006
      Location
      Western Mass
      Posts
      1,376
      Vehicles
      Fiesta ST, Jeep 4.0, BMW e12
      03-30-2011 12:33 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by morecarsthanbrains View Post
      I wouldnt wish one of those new Rovers on an enemy.
      Meh. If you got the money to wheel one, why not?

      Last edited by Quinn1.8t; 03-30-2011 at 12:42 PM.

    13. Member MCTB's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2005
      Location
      Crosstours EVERYWHERE!!!
      Posts
      8,673
      Vehicles
      '12 Focus SE, '72 MGB GT, '58 MGA, '15 Outback Limited
      03-30-2011 12:55 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by Quinn1.8t View Post
      Meh. If you got the money to wheel one, why not?

      Thats not you and Ive seen that before. Its not so much about the money its about the likelihood of failure when you need it most. It could be the most capable truck on paper with every traction and electronic aid known to man but if they wont work together, why bother?

      GWagens are expensive to wheel but you know what? They will get you there and back. The same cannot be said about the LR3/ LR4/ LQ series Range Rovers.

    14. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 7th, 2006
      Location
      Western Mass
      Posts
      1,376
      Vehicles
      Fiesta ST, Jeep 4.0, BMW e12
      03-30-2011 01:30 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by morecarsthanbrains View Post
      Thats not you and Ive seen that before. Its not so much about the money its about the likelihood of failure when you need it most. It could be the most capable truck on paper with every traction and electronic aid known to man but if they wont work together, why bother?

      GWagens are expensive to wheel but you know what? They will get you there and back. The same cannot be said about the LR3/ LR4/ LQ series Range Rovers.
      I never said that was me. It's just a random picture I found. I would never wheel a newer Land Rover because of the reasons you just mentioned.

      But like I said, if you have the money to buy one, fix it when it breaks, and for an expensive tow, then why the heck not? If going wheeling did not have any risks, than it would not be nearly as fun.

      EDIT: If you were going on a trip across South America where a major breakdown would be catastrophic, than of course an LR3/4 would be an awful choice. But most trails in the US are not very far from civilization and cell service, and most people wheel in groups anyway.

      EDIT 2: I don't disagree with you, but basically what I am trying to say is that it's a fine vehicle for someone who has money and is doing light-duty off roading. But saying "I wouldn't wish it on my enemy" is taking it a little too far IMO
      Last edited by Quinn1.8t; 03-30-2011 at 04:02 PM.

    15. Member unimogken's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 19th, 2005
      Location
      South of Jazzydub, WA
      Posts
      5,385
      Vehicles
      6 Tap Kegerator
      03-30-2011 09:47 PM #85
      It doesn't surprise me that this thread went the Jeep route because these threads always head that way.

      So i'm going to retract my vote for a G-Wagon and/or a Unimog and i'm going to vote for a Crown Victoria!
      I really wish everyone would update their location in their profile!

      Someone buy my car already!!

      Always looking for free firewood to feed my hungry wood stove!

    16. Banner Advertiser Chris@Revo USA's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2007
      Location
      Summit Point, WV
      Posts
      9,882
      Vehicles
      X,80,X,X,98,00,X,06,12
      03-31-2011 10:01 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by robbyb413 View Post
      You drink the JeepForum XJ Kool Aid Deep don't you? ............


      .... TJs with less mileage and some light mods are $5k all day. You can grab 97 and 98s for $2500-3k with those specs and mileage at this point.

      Dream on with that XJ being the better choice friend!

      I see both your points (aside from the XJ not fitting the bill here personally for me its better).

      I had a GC, sold that for a ram 2500 cummins since full sizes are coming up, sold that got an XJ, traded that for a parts mk4 jetta and currently dailying my GFs TJ with the cummins swap I did.

      The only one I have truely taken off road and not just some fireroads or mud is the TJ. Even 2wd (still haven't regeared front after cummins swap) it was very very capable as long as I bypassed the mud the torque got me up and over anything else . But from what little I have done in any vehicle and anythign I would want to do the XJ would be better for me. I like the space i like the wheelbase being a little longer.

      Around here though price wise you can buy 10 Xjs for the price of one early TJ and just going on CL you can find them 40:1. I can also see the poitns about parts, even though they interchange its not always just about drivetrain. At the pull apart they have over 20XJs right now and in the 2+ years I have been going have had maybe 5 ZJs and never a single wrangler (They do currently have a rolling frame for an FJ40 and a roofless fairly beatup FJ40 as well). The TJs someone slaps on a 2" spring spacer lift from ebay on it and they want 2grand over a stock one.


      The XJs around here are beat but they didn't rot through like they did in the Northeast. TJs are fun but its not like they are some fantastic winter vehicle. Yet a convertible in the south is in high demand, especially when we get into the summer with no rain you don't have to put the top up for months.

      PA off-roading mentality I Think is closer to GA mentality which differs from Northeast so what is there and what people want is going to vary slightly.

      Going with what the OP set my vote goes for JK rubicon as well, despite having a hard time thinking about spending 30grand on something I plan to go bang up.

      If it was 10 year though I'd go XJ personally...Capabilities will be similar (as people have said drivetrains are the same) with slight favor to the TJ in 100% stock , saying TJ because I am assuming same year for the vehicles. The increased interior volume would make it overall a more capable vehicle for me. We have to keep the rear set out in the TJ to fit the 4 dogs, we can fold down the seat in the XJ if we want or keep them all in the back it stays up.

    17. Moderator robbyb413's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 12th, 2002
      Location
      Longmeadow, MA / Boston, MA
      Posts
      16,297
      Vehicles
      2010 S4 Prestige, 1987 Grady White 206G Overnighter, 2010 A4 P+ (Hers)
      04-01-2011 12:16 PM #87
      We're so far off the original point. Good to see a busy thread in here.

      I'm not going to address the XJ vs TJ thing line by line - we're debating "best" here from two different perspectives. The XJ is being called "best" because it's cheap. The TJ is called "best" because it's more capable. We're talking about off-roading performance here though so who cares if the TJ costs a little more? At the end of the day you want a rig that can finish the trail and the TJ is more likely to put you in that position for your spend. It's price vs. value. A good price is only good if there's value to it, otherwise you're a fool.

      The TJ can go harder out of the box than the XJ. It has superior approach, departure, and break over angles. This matters. It means that of the two stock rigs the TJ is more likely to drive over the same obstacle with ease and without beating itself up. As you put money into the rig the TJ will always be starting from a better baseline. Saving money on the XJ doesn't look so good when the TJ drives home at the end of the day and the XJ is all wonky because you hit something when you approached an obstacle. You now have to pay money to fix that.

      Then as you dump money into mods, it's going to take more to get the XJ to the point that the TJ starts from. When you have to install twice as much lift to fit the same tire under the XJ as you do under the TJ there is a cost to that. What are you really saving when you spend more to make it ready for the trails you want to take it on?

      Just looking at the things that commonly go on the trail - axles, u-joints, steering components, shocks - there really isn't any advantage to the XJ because those parts are interchangeable or cost the same either way. That's the stuff that breaks all the time, run in and run out. It's not magically more expensive for the TJ over the XJ. So you're not gaining anything by trying to sub in the XJ for a TJ as if those parts are somehow easier/cheaper to obtain.

      Plus as you look at all the little things with the way the TJ was built its even more apparent that is the better move.

      Take the tail-lights for instance. If I squeeze the back of a TJ past a tree it can scratch the corner of the tub, maybe push it in a little. It's fine, just pop it back out or put corner guards on it. If I bust the tail-light in the process, which isn't really that likely, I can go to any auto parts store and replace it for $5. If you do the same with the XJ you're going to destroy the tail light housing, which is more than $5 to replace, and then you're going to be beating at the corner to try to make the thing fit in there. And you're gong to bang that light off a rock again - it's just sitting out there at the corner of the rig. Enjoy doing that over and over again!

      Or let's talk about driving through water. Get you cabin filled with water. Not a big deal on the TJ. It has nice big drain holes and since the carpet is made to come out the owner probably wasn't running it to begin with so the water is out and he's dry before he makes it home. In the XJ the holes aren't so good, and your carpet doesn't come out without removing trim and IIRC seats. You're full of water all the way home. Sure, you can rhino-line either and not deal with that at all, but most people don't. Who wants a rig that smells like a mud hole 2 weeks removed from a trail ride? Not me.

      Or let's say you want to add a winch to your rig. For a TJ owner it takes 10 minutes to add a winch. You literally remove 4 bolts, put the winchplate/winch down, and put the 4 bolts back in. Hook up power and ground which takes seconds since it's easy to pass those through the TJs wide open grill Done. The XJ owner however, in addition to purchasing the winch, needs to go buy an expensive off-road bumper . You need to pull off your stock bumper. You need to install the new bumper. You need to bolt the winch to it. You need to find a way to work the power and ground through the tight grill, and then you're finally done. That's way more cost and effort for that one mod.

      Are those things huge? Not really, but they add up. When everything about the TJ was built with more intentions of the thing being easy to take offroad and repair there are little bits of time and cost savings all around that really make add up. You saved a few bucks when you bought the XJ, but it's a short term gain long term loss. All those little things they didn't do on the XJ come back to bite you.

      Call my crazy, but my stance is that a lower price of admission really does not equate to "better" here. TJ has much more value.
      Last edited by robbyb413; 04-01-2011 at 12:49 PM.

    18. Banner Advertiser Chris@Revo USA's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2007
      Location
      Summit Point, WV
      Posts
      9,882
      Vehicles
      X,80,X,X,98,00,X,06,12
      04-01-2011 01:49 PM #88
      If I said the XJ was better at all in my post in regards to anything but my personal needs i didn't mean it that way.

      Only about half what you listed there as interchangeable is actually interchangeable, similar in design but not actually interchangeable. So 20:0 ratio of junk yard parts is appealing to some knowing it will be there and a direct fit.

      Better availability of parts, lower entry price, can for some make it a better choice, so i 100% see the logic in someone feeling an XJ is better without ever having a sip of any sugary beverage.


      Now I do need to question your sanity in regards to your comment on the tailights.. So what you are telling me is that body damage requiring saying a 150+ buck bolt on overlay and a 5 dollar tailight is better than 30 bucks shipped for a pair of replacement XJ tailights? I get the XJ could also result in some body damage and require repair, for 150 bucks I can buy another entire XJ though.. and it probably comes with tailights .

      IF I bust a corner on a 5K TJ or even worse a newer more expensive JK I'm going to be pissed and fix it for real or actually buy that cover panel at the very least. If I bust a corner on a 500 buck XJ I'll laugh and kick the other side to match. Not condoning reckless and intentional damage, but there is value in not caring if it does occur that can make a beat up stock POS more capable than a minty brand new one if you don't even have the balls to try something with it.


      all that is hypothetical and of course nothing in that comparison fits the 5year thing, but yeah it is a good discussion and I don't think anyone can come up with an answer better than a jk rubicon at this point so unless the argument is going to be 2 or 4 doors might as well discuss other things or end it

      I it was 10 years though and comparing similary spec'd wrangler vs cherokee I think it would come down to needs of the person to tip which is more capable, yes nod to the wrangler mostly likely but my needs would put me in an XJ

    19. Member auburnjosh's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 4th, 2004
      Location
      Aurora, IL
      Posts
      1,106
      Vehicles
      2006 A4 2.0T
      04-01-2011 11:37 PM #89
      I think the Rubicon but what are the FJ Cruiser's w/trail teams package like?
      Contact me for special pricing on Rigid LEDs

    20. Member EL_3grab's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 25th, 2006
      Location
      AJ - UAE
      Posts
      554
      Vehicles
      MK5 GTI
      04-02-2011 12:16 AM #90
      We can get this here



      +



      • Agent 47 Drives a Golf ..

    21. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 7th, 2006
      Location
      Western Mass
      Posts
      1,376
      Vehicles
      Fiesta ST, Jeep 4.0, BMW e12
      04-02-2011 12:37 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by auburnjosh View Post
      I think the Rubicon but what are the FJ Cruiser's w/trail teams package like?
      A fine off road vehicle no doubt, but still not up the level of a Rubicon as it is IFS and does not have a front locker.

    22. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 17th, 1999
      Location
      Windsor, VT USA
      Posts
      24,348
      Vehicles
      '10 Prius - '05 4Runner
      04-02-2011 09:39 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by EL_3grab View Post
      We can get this here



      +



      :drool:
      Quote Originally Posted by redshift View Post
      Furthermore Susan, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this purveyor of bleep-bloop music was in fact staging a farce.
      Ukemafia.com

    23. Member 01tj's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 8th, 2005
      Location
      WV
      Posts
      4,491
      Vehicles
      02 330i, 09 Flex, 01 Wrangler
      04-03-2011 08:58 AM #93
      You can't beat a Rubicon, it can't be done at least in my area. You could not get a power wagon (or anything bigger than a Wrangler) down 90% of the trails in my area.

    24. Member MCTB's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2005
      Location
      Crosstours EVERYWHERE!!!
      Posts
      8,673
      Vehicles
      '12 Focus SE, '72 MGB GT, '58 MGA, '15 Outback Limited
      04-04-2011 08:36 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by EL_3grab View Post
      We can get this here



      +

      Wouldnt mind this in a slightly longer package. So very nice.

    25. Moderator robbyb413's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 12th, 2002
      Location
      Longmeadow, MA / Boston, MA
      Posts
      16,297
      Vehicles
      2010 S4 Prestige, 1987 Grady White 206G Overnighter, 2010 A4 P+ (Hers)
      04-04-2011 02:03 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by chris@revotechnik View Post
      If I said the XJ was better at all in my post in regards to anything but my personal needs i didn't mean it that way.
      I wasn't responding to you really, rather the string of general XJ posts I missed out on by taking a few days off from the board.

      Only about half what you listed there as interchangeable is actually interchangeable, similar in design but not actually interchangeable. So 20:0 ratio of junk yard parts is appealing to some knowing it will be there and a direct fit.
      Interchangable or not, the stuff all costs the same. It's not like the little bits you break off road differ in cost between the various jeeps. Most runs you go on don't result in someone exploding their d30/d35/d44. Someone usually busts a u-joint on a driveshaft. Someone comes down too hard on their steering and has to replace a drag link or tie rod. Etc etc. That stuff is all cheap and/or the same between them. My neighbor has a HP d30 from an XJ in his TJ. It pretty much just bolted in there. In my TJ I have the steering box from a Durango and while the pitman arm is stock TJ everything else attached to it to turn my wheels is from a Grand Cherokee. Chrysler is all about cutting costs and making parts easy to interchange to keep costs down. And the stuff that doesn't swap isn't because one is special and thus priced at a higher level, it's just a different part at around the same cost.

      Now I do need to question your sanity in regards to your comment on the tailights.. So what you are telling me is that body damage requiring saying a 150+ buck bolt on overlay and a 5 dollar tailight is better than 30 bucks shipped for a pair of replacement XJ tailights? I get the XJ could also result in some body damage and require repair, for 150 bucks I can buy another entire XJ though.. and it probably comes with tailights .

      IF I bust a corner on a 5K TJ or even worse a newer more expensive JK I'm going to be pissed and fix it for real or actually buy that cover panel at the very least. If I bust a corner on a 500 buck XJ I'll laugh and kick the other side to match. Not condoning reckless and intentional damage, but there is value in not caring if it does occur that can make a beat up stock POS more capable than a minty brand new one if you don't even have the balls to try something with it.
      If you bust a corner on a XJ you're exploding the light and it's not going to ever bolt back in again because the sheet metal will be too screwy. You may bust your glass, and you also might have your tailgate not able to close. That's going to be much more repair time and cost than the TJ... If you hit the corner on a TJ chances are nothing happens. It might get scratched. It might pop the $4.99 tail light off. It may bend in a bit. No big deal. If it bends, you just bend it back out and all things are well. If you think it's ugly corner guards cost nothing. If they cost you $150 I'll sell you mine and replace them at a profit. You're also not taking into account all the work you'd need to go through to bring a $150 XJ back to road worthiness and then swap your gear over to it.

      The TJ is made to take down the trail and bang off stuff. It's built in such a way that casualties are conveniently minimized and repair time is shortened vs the XJ.

      If your wheel slips and you hit the bumper on a TJ you've maybe bent a stamped metal throwaway bumper. If you do the same on an XJ you've just cost yourself a bumper cover, a headlight, a grille, a fender, and all the stuff that makes the front end of the XJ so finished. It's labor to pound all of that back into shape and costs money to replace the plastic you broke.

      If the truck in front of you tosses a rock that hits your TJ's grill you might have a rock chip or a bend. If the truck in front of you tosses a rock that hits your XJs grill you now have a custom front grill and maybe some bent fins on your radiator. The touch up paint for the TJ is cheaper than the replacement grill you now need to buy.

      You can go on with more of those - all sorts of little trail scenarios where the TJ puts you on top.

      Plus do we want to get into the drawbacks of the XJ being unibody when we're comparing it to the TJ's body-on-frame construction?

      The XJ just doesn't hold up long run next to the TJ. They're cool. I'd take one over some other options, but when you're talking about running twice as much lift, having to strengthen the body F/S/R, and doing all the work of putting a long arm on an XJ just to make is do the same thing some schlub in a TJ is doing with just a 3" lift kit and some 33 inch tires it just doesn't make sense to save money on the cost of admission for a trail rig. And on the them of the original post they just don't hold up stock XJ vs stock TJ from a performance perspective. The TJ has shorter overhangs and a shorter chassis, which all mean it's going to be more capable for trail obstacles. The TJ can also run at least a 1" bigger tire than the XJ without any other mods which adds to the hole that the XJ starts from.

      Plus TJs can go topless and doorless without being illegal to run on the streets, violating any offroad club rules, or needing to do any welding to account for the loss in structural rigidity when you DIY those on an XJ. More visibility off road is never a bad thing, and neither is spending more time wheeling and less time in the garage welding!

    26. 04-04-2011 02:12 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by robbyb413 View Post
      If your wheel slips and you hit the bumper on a TJ you've maybe bent a stamped metal throwaway bumper. If you do the same on an XJ you've just cost yourself a bumper cover, a headlight, a grille, a fender, and all the stuff that makes the front end of the XJ so finished. It's labor to pound all of that back into shape and costs money to replace the plastic you broke.

      If the truck in front of you tosses a rock that hits your TJ's grill you might have a rock chip or a bend. If the truck in front of you tosses a rock that hits your XJs grill you now have a custom front grill and maybe some bent fins on your radiator. The touch up paint for the TJ is cheaper than the replacement grill you now need to buy.
      have u seen the bumper on an XJ. Its POS stamped metal, stupid cheap and easy to replace. Have u seen a XJ grill? It has better coverage than the TJ, and its a cheap POS plastic piece, $5 at a pick and pull. Custom front grill

      Dude, we know a TJ is better all around than an XJ, but your said arguements are weak IMO.

    27. 04-04-2011 02:15 PM #97
      should we get into the arguement of a stock $5k TJ (relative market value), compared to a stock $1K XJ with $4k of work into it, and which one would perform better?

    28. Banner Advertiser Chris@Revo USA's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2007
      Location
      Summit Point, WV
      Posts
      9,882
      Vehicles
      X,80,X,X,98,00,X,06,12
      04-04-2011 02:27 PM #98
      So what you are saying is that the same hit on an XJ that would bust the panel, glass, tailight and cause the hatch not to close would just scratch TJ?

      What are you on?

      You have a valid point that in some cases more damage may happen but don't make it sound like hte TJ is bullet proof there is a reason that those repair panels exist and that is because people smash the crap out of them and they must be repaired.

      You can bang it up so the hatch won't close. Yeah it might not have glass but you can smash the area where the window locks in so you can't get the rear side panels back in.

      As for the tailights themselves I couldn't find single lights for less then I bought pairs of new XJ lights for.


      As someone else already responded to the grill comments are beyond comical. I reach my hand through the stock TJ grill to tighten the bolts on my intercooler which sits where the stock radiator/condensor would be.

    29. Member cred05's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 21st, 2008
      Location
      Ohio
      Posts
      103
      Vehicles
      2000 S4, 2006 LR3
      04-04-2011 04:34 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by morecarsthanbrains View Post
      The same cannot be said about the LR3/ LR4/ LQ series Range Rovers.
      I've got an LR3 with 120K miles that begs to differ. Regularly taken offroad, daily driven.
      Last edited by cred05; 04-04-2011 at 04:38 PM.

    30. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 17th, 1999
      Location
      Windsor, VT USA
      Posts
      24,348
      Vehicles
      '10 Prius - '05 4Runner
      04-04-2011 05:26 PM #100
      Can you please take the XJ vs TJ discussion to another thread please? The XJ does not apply to this topic even remotely.
      Quote Originally Posted by redshift View Post
      Furthermore Susan, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this purveyor of bleep-bloop music was in fact staging a farce.
      Ukemafia.com

    31. 04-04-2011 05:32 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by cred05 View Post
      I've got an LR3 with 120K miles that begs to differ. Regularly taken offroad, daily driven.
      So I've searched the LR forums regarding the modern Land Rovers and Range Rovers, here's probably the one of the responses that best explains the differences between the Rovers and it's solid axle counterparts:

      I copied the below text out of a post on the Land Rover National Rally thread I started here on the LR4 forum. nwoods is the poster:

      "A Note About Modern Rovers
      Modern Rover is an IFS suspension version, such as the LR3, Range Rover Sport, or MkIII Range Rover. I do not include Freelanders or LR2's because they do not have Low Range transfer cases nor adjustable suspension (off road height).

      I call them Modern Rovers because their origin is with BMW and Ford, unlike the drivetrain from the Disco II and Disco 1, which are directly carried over from the Classic, and before that, the precursor to the Classic, which I can't recall the name of...starts with a V? (Velar?)

      I single out Modern Rovers because their electrowizardry turns ordinary trail rating system into mush. Traditional trail ratings are all about lockers and tire size. An LR3 for example, can out climb just about any locked vehicle on the planet through it's phenomenal traction control, amazing 13" long travel suspension, and incredibly tight turning radius. However, it has very limited clearance. Which means obstacles that challenge even the stoutest of traditional solid axle rigs are a piece of cake for a Modern Rover, but if the rocks get too big, the Modern Rover will never have a chance due to limited clearance.

      It makes picking trails that you are not familiar with very difficult when you own a Modern Rover. You really need to know why a trail has earned a given rating. If it's big rocks, bad news and don't bother. If it's anything else beside big rocks, pretty much no problem for a Modern Rover.

      My point is not that the Modern Rover is "better", it's that their capabilities are very different, making the trail rating system almost useless. The nature of the obstacle is the deciding factor, not the difficulty level. In the past few years, the LR3's have mastered trails that "old school" participants thought the LR3 would never ever make it through.

      However, I think there are dozens of trails you will never see an LR3 on, because of the size of rocks and ledges. Pritchard Canyon is one good example. An LR3 will fail big time there."

    32. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 17th, 1999
      Location
      Windsor, VT USA
      Posts
      24,348
      Vehicles
      '10 Prius - '05 4Runner
      04-04-2011 06:23 PM #102
      Everything I've read about the modern Rovers agrees with that.

      Same can be said for the modern Land Cruisers. The newest ones have some brilliant electronic 4x4 wizardry and can tackle really challenging terrain if it can keep it's painted bits off the rocks.
      Quote Originally Posted by redshift View Post
      Furthermore Susan, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this purveyor of bleep-bloop music was in fact staging a farce.
      Ukemafia.com

    33. Member MCTB's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 29th, 2005
      Location
      Crosstours EVERYWHERE!!!
      Posts
      8,673
      Vehicles
      '12 Focus SE, '72 MGB GT, '58 MGA, '15 Outback Limited
      04-05-2011 09:19 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by cred05 View Post
      I've got an LR3 with 120K miles that begs to differ. Regularly taken offroad, daily driven.
      But what type of terrain is it? My Disco would tackle anything and could make it through where an LR3 couldnt dream of going. The above quote about the LR3+ line of Rovers is true. You have sensors and suspension travel (which I believe is a LOT more compression than droop) but you lack clearance. I have seen a few LR3s that have sat their front or rear ends on the top of their tires due to suspension failures rendering them inoperable. I just cannot wheel an electro wizard truck with confidence. Every obstacle contains unknowns and those unknowns could easily render a sensor useless. Take your LR3 through a muddy hole, hook an ABS/ wheel sensor and voila, no more fancy traction control. Your truck can no longer judge wheel speed and will not be able to tell if that wheel is spinning and lock it up. Air bag sensors fail very often and results in an immovable object. Every truck can potentially break a suspension component but a spring is much harder to break than a sensor. I could not wheel, with any sort of confidence, a modern Rover. Talk all you want about advanced traction aids. There are just too many drawbacks and potential failures. One of the most capable SUVs out there is a GWagen and they have crap for suspension flex. They do, however, have selectable lockers front, center and rear to make up for it.

      All of this though hinges upon your definition of off road. Fire roads? Easy. Middle part of the US? Easy. Most trails in the West? Easy. Mid Atlantic/ New England and Pacific Northwest? Forget about it. For me, I will stick to the old school lockers, lift for clearance and better angles and a winch to help me out with anything else.

    34. Member cred05's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 21st, 2008
      Location
      Ohio
      Posts
      103
      Vehicles
      2000 S4, 2006 LR3
      04-05-2011 09:20 AM #104
      New LR's might have independent suspensions, but don't let it fool you.

      "Land Rover developed 'cross-linked' air suspension to solve this problem – when needed, the suspension mimics the action of a beam axle (as one wheel drops, the other rises). If the chassis of the vehicle contacts the ground when the suspension was at its 'off road' height, the system senses the reduction in load on the air springs and raises the vehicle an extra inch."

    35. Member cred05's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 21st, 2008
      Location
      Ohio
      Posts
      103
      Vehicles
      2000 S4, 2006 LR3
      04-05-2011 09:40 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by morecarsthanbrains View Post
      But what type of terrain is it? My Disco would tackle anything and could make it through where an LR3 couldnt dream of going. The above quote about the LR3+ line of Rovers is true. You have sensors and suspension travel (which I believe is a LOT more compression than droop) but you lack clearance. I have seen a few LR3s that have sat their front or rear ends on the top of their tires due to suspension failures rendering them inoperable. I just cannot wheel an electro wizard truck with confidence. Every obstacle contains unknowns and those unknowns could easily render a sensor useless. Take your LR3 through a muddy hole, hook an ABS/ wheel sensor and voila, no more fancy traction control. Your truck can no longer judge wheel speed and will not be able to tell if that wheel is spinning and lock it up. Air bag sensors fail very often and results in an immovable object. Every truck can potentially break a suspension component but a spring is much harder to break than a sensor. I could not wheel, with any sort of confidence, a modern Rover. Talk all you want about advanced traction aids. There are just too many drawbacks and potential failures. One of the most capable SUVs out there is a GWagen and they have crap for suspension flex. They do, however, have selectable lockers front, center and rear to make up for it.

      All of this though hinges upon your definition of off road. Fire roads? Easy. Middle part of the US? Easy. Most trails in the West? Easy. Mid Atlantic/ New England and Pacific Northwest? Forget about it. For me, I will stick to the old school lockers, lift for clearance and better angles and a winch to help me out with anything else.
      This type of terrain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnUQkm0d8zI

      I had a Disco 2 before I had the LR3, so I am aware of the differences, but the LR3 seems to do it with greater ease. There are also a lot of "what-ifs" in your argument, but they are valid concerns to you, just not to me. Like I said, it's going on 5 years old now with 120K miles, reliability has never been a problem.

      BTW, the Disco doesn't meet the OP's criteria, it's not new enough.

    Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •